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Old 08-17-2008, 11:16 AM   #26
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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Roy Dean is a dan holder, not a novice, far from a beginner. Definitely a competent, professional martial artist. The video below provides a glimpses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D10w1VFGZh0

Many of the earlier practitioners of Aikido, direct students of the Founder, such as Kenji Tomiki and Minoru Mochizuki advocated Judo and propelled the methodology of Judo with their Aikido. Below is proof of the connection of Aikido/Judo.

"There are, moreover, several interesting historical connections between Aikido and Judo. Kano witnessed a demonstration by Morihei Ueshiba in 1930 which resulted in him sending several of his top Judoka to study under the Aikido Founder. Kenji Tomiki, the creator of Tomiki-style Aikido - often referred to as "Sport Aikido" was an advanced practitioner of Judo in the 1920s and strongly influenced by Kano's theories. Tomiki later became a prominent figure in the development of prewar Aikido and a senior instructor at the Kobukan Dojo. Another fascinating historical sidelight is the fact that Admiral Isamu Takeshita, who would later become an enthusiastic student and patron of Morihei Ueshiba, arranged for top-ranking Judo instructor Yoshiaki Yamashita to visit the United States in the early 1900s where he taught jujutsu to President Theodore Roosevelt."

With all due respect. I'm not really interested in an intellectual debate to massage your ego or advocate the principles of flowing Aikido dance moves. I'm not interested in experiencing some introspective, religious, spiritual awakening from Aikido. I was merely speaking to individuals who would like to foster or evolve their Aikido to the next level of martial excellence. Those who want to arm themselves with the best knowledge possible to move Aikido to the next stage of progression. The objective is for one to discover who they are. Aikido will mean different things to different people.
You can't really determine what kind of conversation you will have when you enter into a conversation. You open the door to whatever is on peoples minds . Spirituality, or being awake, is in many peoples practice, the next step, or a potential evolution of aikido. It is part of the conversation.

Having said that, I will say it is a matter of 'order of operations' as to your argumnent about what evolution is....The teachers you mention, and O'Sensei himself, practiced many martial arts and were excellent in the them BEFORE he was inspired in the movements of Aikido. To simply only reinstate those arts would be to essentiall go backwards in time,to devolve. And it would be a devolving of conciousness to atempt to emulate the violent tatics of the past in the climate of today. We live in a time that demands Takemusu Aiki and Shobu Aiki. Not simply Aik- jitsu or some new brand there-of. Our fathers did that work so we could do other, in their footsteps, but in this time.

Metaphor:A little like using this computer instead of sending you all letters ( i do love to write letters, but it doesnt serve this communication purpose.)

And for anyone who thinks I'm saying 'don't learn your craft' on any level, I'm not.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 08-17-2008, 01:10 PM   #27
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I'm not interested in religious experiences from Aikido, otherwise I what look for another methodology for self defense. I'm only interested in martial application and evolving my self defense abilities physically. Again, I was only speaking to those who share the same desire to evolve their Aikido, martial methodology. I'm not looking from validation from people like yourself. I'm looking for those who have a desire to expand, such as Roy Dean has done and countless others. If this web portal is only for those who advocate religion, then maybe I should find another audience.
Salim,
My final 'two cents' worth and then I will bow out. Certainly Aikido and this forum do not require religion/spirituality to participate in...I just find it curious that you would choose a martial art whose founder was a deeply religious, spiritual man and yet you are closed off to the idea that spirtituality, religion, or meditation can make you a better martial artist. By all accounts Osensei was a legendary physical martial artist, who's abilities few have been able to replicate. My final question is do you think if you were to ask Osensei if his religious or spirtiual side made him a more effective physical martial artist? I would bet the answer would be yes....

Thats probably a topic for another thread or has been. With that I hope you find the answers you are seeking.

Stay Cut,

The Hebrew Hammer
 
Old 08-17-2008, 02:34 PM   #28
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Gee...(sigh)... Aikido doesn't fit with evolution. Ringing the same bell here, but Aikido is a complete martial art. Adding in other techniques like in the clip that fit well coming off of Aikido is because Aikido is complete. It is not evolution. Just because MMA, (BJJ at it's core, and Judo at BJJ's core) has become a popular sports venue doesn't mean absorbing Aikido technique to MMA evolves Aikido. Why not say it is the other way around and say MMA is in a continued evolution. An evolution from the ground to standing, to be more like Aikido? MMA really is a mix of older fighting styles mostly from Japanese martial arts, and some boxing and street fighting all organized into one venue.

Aikido when added to MMA to work in MMA venue is adding to a repertoire of moves. Aikido was never designed or intended for a MMA venue. Aikido has a different philosophy, and it isn't about sports competition. It isn't about being paid to fight. I find allot of people over look that. If you really study the origins of Aikido and it's philosophy you see that it is an art form that you have to look at the whole package. You can't cleave off a technique here or their and call it Aikido. It doesn't work that way. You can't reduce Aikido that way, or any other art form.

You can take Aikido techniques and add other martial arts too it and you have your own style. Several people have, and created some successful styles of Aikido. Even Aikido was the result of other arts, and influences. But that isn't evolution, it is being creative. Voila, the category of martial art and not sport.

It isn't a matter of evolution, it is a matter of growth in more than one area. That is why I call it a complete art. The challenge of Aikido sticking with Aikido, having the belief in Aikido, the confidence in Aikido, the effort to go the distance to reap the benefits, the awards it offers. Aikido is an art, an expression, a spiritual journey, and a cultural experience. Evolution happens here within Aikido, the opportunity for personal growth.

That doesn't go over with the young eager guys who want to prove they are fighters. The guys who just focus on that one climaitic short moment of victory. For them is what they are all about. But there is more then a quick climatic rush, like in the art of romance for example. With romance, like Aikido, it takes years to appreciate, and embrace, that long slow passionate beautiful dance.

What I said ties in to the thread "What comes after Aikido" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14958

Last edited by Buck : 08-17-2008 at 02:39 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2008, 05:20 PM   #29
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Thank you, Philip, for your wise words.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
 
Old 08-17-2008, 07:31 PM   #30
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Gee...(sigh)... Aikido doesn't fit with evolution. Ringing the same bell here, but Aikido is a complete martial art. Adding in other techniques like in the clip that fit well coming off of Aikido is because Aikido is complete. It is not evolution. Just because MMA, (BJJ at it's core, and Judo at BJJ's core) has become a popular sports venue doesn't mean absorbing Aikido technique to MMA evolves Aikido. Why not say it is the other way around and say MMA is in a continued evolution. An evolution from the ground to standing, to be more like Aikido? MMA really is a mix of older fighting styles mostly from Japanese martial arts, and some boxing and street fighting all organized into one venue.

Aikido when added to MMA to work in MMA venue is adding to a repertoire of moves. Aikido was never designed or intended for a MMA venue. Aikido has a different philosophy, and it isn't about sports competition. It isn't about being paid to fight. I find allot of people over look that. If you really study the origins of Aikido and it's philosophy you see that it is an art form that you have to look at the whole package. You can't cleave off a technique here or their and call it Aikido. It doesn't work that way. You can't reduce Aikido that way, or any other art form.

You can take Aikido techniques and add other martial arts too it and you have your own style. Several people have, and created some successful styles of Aikido. Even Aikido was the result of other arts, and influences. But that isn't evolution, it is being creative. Voila, the category of martial art and not sport.

It isn't a matter of evolution, it is a matter of growth in more than one area. That is why I call it a complete art. The challenge of Aikido sticking with Aikido, having the belief in Aikido, the confidence in Aikido, the effort to go the distance to reap the benefits, the awards it offers. Aikido is an art, an expression, a spiritual journey, and a cultural experience. Evolution happens here within Aikido, the opportunity for personal growth.

That doesn't go over with the young eager guys who want to prove they are fighters. The guys who just focus on that one climaitic short moment of victory. For them is what they are all about. But there is more then a quick climatic rush, like in the art of romance for example. With romance, like Aikido, it takes years to appreciate, and embrace, that long slow passionate beautiful dance.

What I said ties in to the thread "What comes after Aikido" http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14958
Philip,

I respect your honesty and the love you have for Aikido. I certainly respect those who want Aikido to reflect Japanese religious, cultural views. This is where we draw the line. To many of the early practitioners, direct students of O'sensei felt compelled to evolve their Aikido to another level. This is why we have Yoshinkan, Yoseikan and others. Those well respected Aikidoka, felt there was something lacking and added to their Aikido. Kenji Tomiki, Gozo Shioda and Minoru Mochizuki definitely and often spoke about the deficients within the modern Aikido movements. Sometimes they would ridiculed the Aikikai/Ki approach altogether. Even individuals within Aikikai as an organization have had methodology differences, so it's nothing new.

To many Aikidoka, especially those within the Aikikai organization want to pinpoint or make preconceived accusations that any Aikidoka who wants to incorporate BJJ/Jujutsu are some how sport MMA enthusiast. There could be nothing further from the truth. Just because an Aikidoka wants to incorporate some form of Jujutsu, does not mean he/she is an advocate for sport MMA. I myself like to use what is useful, what works for me and my body type and remove what is not useful. For me it's all about self defense and having fun while learning.

Again, I draw the line within our fundamental, methodology of Aikido. I refuse to accept the religious aspects of O'sensei's spiritual beliefs and feel it's not necessary to be an Aikidoka practitioner. I have my own religious orientation. I do however respect the founders religious belief, but do not incorporate those principles to my Aikido. Many practitioners of the Tomiki, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan hold the same sentiment. I view martial arts from an athleticism perspective. Good clean, healthy fun that brings about great social interactions and maybe the development of a new friendship. Aikido can be physically, very healthy, especially for those who are older, but still enjoy some type of physical activity. It's a great way to stay in shape, very much like BJJ. Learning body coordination, new ways to use your body in ways you didn't know before is great martial exploration.

All martial arts have something athletically to offer. All martial arts have limitations. Aikido has some self defense limitations and deficients that need to be either complimented with some other art, or removed so that one can adjust to a real life self defense situations. I believe in good health, healthy eating and religious beliefs, for those who want religion are all good positive aspects to a full, healthy lifestyle.

I would say, the youth are our future and are usually not closed minded to evolving the arts in general. They are the ones, with whom persons such as myself look to for healthy martial growth. I use Roy Dean as a classical example, only to suggest that he is one who explores the possibilities and doesn't allow the arts to stagnate. He allows one to discover who they are within the realm of self defense. Always professional, always willing to assist and share, truly a class act. We need more individuals like him to help foster a positive movement of evolving Aikido.

Last edited by salim : 08-17-2008 at 07:46 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2008, 10:06 PM   #31
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Philip,

I would say, the youth are our future and are usually not closed minded to evolving the arts in general. They are the ones, with whom persons such as myself look to for healthy martial growth. I use Roy Dean as a classical example, only to suggest that he is one who explores the possibilities and doesn't allow the arts to stagnate. He allows one to discover who they are within the realm of self defense. Always professional, always willing to assist and share, truly a class act. We need more individuals like him to help foster a positive movement of evolving Aikido.
Whether you say it or not youth is always the future, except for our own bodies.
To walk in your own ideals foster the students in your own dojo who are teaching the younger students.Support your own dojo's contribution to the art. Spend time in the kids classes. Learn who the kids are and what they have to teach you about evolution; as well as what you think they should be learning. But you need to be sure of exactly what you think 'good aikido' is and be prepared to teach and elaborate completely on that.
That is how generation and selection occurs.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-17-2008 at 10:11 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
 
Old 08-17-2008, 10:08 PM   #32
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Exclamation Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

I see what your saying, and in any organization it has to follow what it believes. I think there lies the threat of existence. Should you change, do you need to change, do you change and how much change, are all a difficult balancing act. How many companies survive sticking to their mission, their vision and where other companies are forced to change their mission and or vision because they did stick with their mission. How many companies have to change to survive. And in change or not changing have to do with politics. If you change what do you lose? If you don't change what do you lose? This is a huge issue for all organizations.

I think what you are talking about is diversifying, and merging, and not evolution. When you are diversifying you are bring in a new culture as a result that then has to be decided will it act independently from the parent company or not. Then comes the consideration of the results of those actions. Will it kill the old company brand and productions, that is highly identifiable with a huge customer loyalty? Will the new product brand be marketable with the same appeal and success? Remember New Coke? RIP, for example. Change for companies and institutions can be devastating to the public. A public that has a long held expectations and recognition with a strong standing toward these organizations, expecting these organizations to continue as founded. Again I use the failure of New Coke that lost it's original taste and tasted like it's competitors product.

What if Harvard's law school changed into a cooking school? Or the campus changed into an amusement park Harvard has a reputation that people recognize and are familiar with that. That is something you don't change unless the idea is to destroy the school.

It ain't football players learning ballet: Body coordination, if you haven't discovered or explored it in Aikido and are looking outside of Aikido for it that is everyone's right. But, it is sad that people don't have enough confidence in themselves or Aikido to know that it is there. That marvel comes with practice, practice is where you explore. Some people don't have the patience or don't want to work hard to get it. Others may need a different view or different teaching style to understand it. But that doesn't mean the art lacks it, it there. Anything worthwhile doesn't come easy.

The grass is greener on the other side of the fence, at first glance: If you look closely enough you will see in those other arts looking elsewhere to build around their core arts. MMA is a great example. And you will have a high number of people selling all sorts of skills to MMA fighters. In MMA you have many coaches of different areas teaching fighters.

It really is more about diversity then evolution of a organization. It is not bending to every trend that comes along. It is about sticking to your guns and preserving a establish highly identifiable institution, with all it's warts, for the future. A real tough act. I think credit could be given and respect and understanding for keeping the institution alive and kicking. Walk in their shoes. Would you want MMA to evolve into a pro wrestling? Of course not, you would fight to protect it from that, rightly so. Even though MMA lost it's freshness and marked as out of date as a dinosaur sport.

Politics are something best left to the politicians. Most of what you said at the start to me is really an issue of politics. Every place has them.

That is how I look at it. I don't expect anyone else to do the same. I guess what I am saying there are two sides to every coin.

Is there a point of disagreement between us? I hope not. I just understand from where they are standing. That is from a fundamental view point.

Last edited by Buck : 08-17-2008 at 10:13 PM.
 
Old 08-17-2008, 11:14 PM   #33
John Matsushima
 
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I'm not interested in religious experiences from Aikido, otherwise I what look for another methodology for self defense. I'm only interested in martial application and evolving my self defense abilities physically. Again, I was only speaking to those who share the same desire to evolve their Aikido, martial methodology. I'm not looking from validation from people like yourself. I'm looking for those who have a desire to expand, such as Roy Dean has done and countless others. If this web portal is only for those who advocate religion, then maybe I should find another audience.
If you're only interested in how Aikido is evolving martially, then you cannot speak of how it evolves as an art. What you speak of is expanding the art laterally and not vertically. Adding more waza, swordwork, competition, etc, expands the Aikido to encompass more, but it does little to bring it to new heights. Sometimes, I think when you go to far laterally, then you create a new art. I think of Yoseikan being one example, in my opinion. Is Aikido an evolution of Daito-ryu, or a new art created from it? Furthermore, the founders of Aikido and Judo seemed to want to "trim the fat"; that is they cut out techniques, leaving what they thought was the only the most efficient. I think what people like Roy Dean seem to be doing, is the opposite; going backwards. In Aikido, for many, seems to be going backward. Instead of going after what Ueshiba was going after, many focus instead on trying to do what he and his students did, or adding what they the was a mistake for him to leave out (kicks, punches, grappling, swordwork, etc.).
I view Aikido as an evolution of Budo, not the opposite. Aikido does what the original concepts of Budo meant to do - stop the spears, stop the conflict with as little violence as possible. So, in that sense, it is obvious that in order to look at the evolution of Aikido, one must look where it has come from, consider all the aspects; the spiritual, moral, intellectual, and physical, and most importantly, where it is going.

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
 
Old 08-18-2008, 10:06 AM   #34
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Adding more waza, swordwork, competition, etc, expands the Aikido to encompass more, but it does little to bring it to new heights.
I don't think so. There are multiple examples of people who added techniques and/or principles of other arts bringing aikido to new heights. I'm thinking of people like Nishio (judo, karate, swordmanship), Yamaguchi (KSR), Michio (bojutsu), Tohei (yoga), Sugawara (TSKSR and CIMA) and many others; I don't see their work as going backwards.

 
Old 08-18-2008, 10:43 AM   #35
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Maybe it is a matter of different arts are brought together isn't to improve but rather as addition to. Much like how you take swimming plus running plus cycling equals a Triathalon. Hence you have a new sport. I don't think it is a matter of perspective and not improvement. When you add swimming to running to cycling you don't improve upon each sport. You just have a athlete that can do all three.

Any of the people mentioned who did other arts and also did Aikido, they didn't compare to the skill of O'Sensei and they all came after O'Sensei and they learned Aikido from O'Senesi and stayed with Aikido. They didn't stop doing Aikido. I don't know why that is often over looked. They thought Aikido was vaild.
 
Old 08-18-2008, 10:56 AM   #36
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I don't think so. There are multiple examples of people who added techniques and/or principles of other arts bringing aikido to new heights. I'm thinking of people like Nishio (judo, karate, swordmanship), Yamaguchi (KSR), Michio (bojutsu), Tohei (yoga), Sugawara (TSKSR and CIMA) and many others; I don't see their work as going backwards.
I would argue that they didn't bring aikido to new heights with those things. Those things brought them to aikido, and they were allowed to train with O-Sensei because of their dedication as students. Those arts were part of their influences and offered another avenue to elaborate on a dimension of aiki. Aikido is 'bigger' in an essence, because it brought those skills to new heights.
Like John said above, and I said before him, it is devoloving when we become macro-lateral.
Trust in the path that has been carved for you. Bring all you have with you, and continue to spiral the mountain.

From Aikido Journal today: "What I’m trying to say is this. In the old days, each master (person) would decide on his own, “I’m good at throwing”, or “My kicking is outstanding,” or I have a great short sword technique.” Then based on this subjective judgement he would set up his own style in a formalized tradition (ryuha). In the case of the “modernization” that took place, the sword was taken out of jujutsu, and likewise, swordwork excluded jujutsu. The arts were divided into specific fields based on the type of technique. An old time practitioner of Ninjutsu, the Art of Stealth, thought only of the real life application. He would do anything he had to do in order to win. This was, of course, because they used technique for the purpose of war, and from that point of view you had to be able to cope with a long engagement distance or a short one, you could jump, do anything necessary. But if we move up to the present we don’t think about such realistic applications. Through our training we forge our spirits (kokoro) and bodies, and so doing we concern ourselves with being useful in more peaceful pursuits. This is the modern way of thinking, and it is so precisely because it is not warlike."

"Though I can’t really say how much he developed from the side of technique, I guess we can say there was a great change based on a “change of heart” (kokoro no tenkan).." -Tomiki Sensei

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-18-2008 at 11:11 AM.

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Old 08-18-2008, 02:27 PM   #37
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Any of the people mentioned who did other arts and also did Aikido, they didn't compare to the skill of O'Sensei and they all came after O'Sensei and they learned Aikido from O'Senesi and stayed with Aikido. They didn't stop doing Aikido. I don't know why that is often over looked. They thought Aikido was vaild.
and

Quote:
jennifer paige smith wrote:
I would argue that they didn't bring aikido to new heights with those things. Those things brought them to aikido, and they were allowed to train with O-Sensei because of their dedication as students. Those arts were part of their influences and offered another avenue to elaborate on a dimension of aiki. Aikido is 'bigger' in an essence, because it brought those skills to new heights.
It also can be said that none of the students of the founder reached his level, doesn't matter if they were experienced martial artists before meeting him, or if they crosstrained or if they trained aikido only so your point is a bit moot.

Of course all of them thought aikido was valid, but aikido's validity was no obstacle for them to step outside aikido's box, both technically and philosophical-spiritually.

BTW, about quoting Tomiki Sensei:

"Through our training we forge our spirits (kokoro) and bodies, and so doing we concern ourselves with being useful in more peaceful pursuits. This is the modern way of thinking, and it is so precisely because it is not warlike."

Then he worked for "putting the eyes back in the dragon" and developed a shiai/randori method for aikido.

 
Old 08-18-2008, 05:40 PM   #38
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

Quote:
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If you're only interested in how Aikido is evolving martially, then you cannot speak of how it evolves as an art. What you speak of is expanding the art laterally and not vertically. Adding more waza, swordwork, competition, etc, expands the Aikido to encompass more, but it does little to bring it to new heights. Sometimes, I think when you go to far laterally, then you create a new art. I think of Yoseikan being one example, in my opinion. Is Aikido an evolution of Daito-ryu, or a new art created from it? Furthermore, the founders of Aikido and Judo seemed to want to "trim the fat"; that is they cut out techniques, leaving what they thought was the only the most efficient. I think what people like Roy Dean seem to be doing, is the opposite; going backwards. In Aikido, for many, seems to be going backward. Instead of going after what Ueshiba was going after, many focus instead on trying to do what he and his students did, or adding what they the was a mistake for him to leave out (kicks, punches, grappling, swordwork, etc.).
I view Aikido as an evolution of Budo, not the opposite. Aikido does what the original concepts of Budo meant to do - stop the spears, stop the conflict with as little violence as possible. So, in that sense, it is obvious that in order to look at the evolution of Aikido, one must look where it has come from, consider all the aspects; the spiritual, moral, intellectual, and physical, and most importantly, where it is going.
I disagree with the statement that Roy Dean is going backwards. Maybe he feels the same passion to use the martial applications of Aikido and leave the religious methodology out.

Roy Deans is doing a fantastic job, infusing Aikido/Jujutsu. That's what martial evolution is all about. Working with various aspects of self defense, attempting to infuse them if possible. Perhaps we're not traditionalist Aikidoka, whatever that means. We enjoy Aiki principles and respect Aikido for it's various forms. His positive attitude and professionalism along with his terrific ideas of making the self defense connection, is what we need to propel Aikido to the next phase of evolution.

Last edited by salim : 08-18-2008 at 05:44 PM.
 
Old 08-18-2008, 06:19 PM   #39
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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and

It also can be said that none of the students of the founder reached his level, doesn't matter if they were experienced martial artists before meeting him, or if they crosstrained or if they trained aikido only so your point is a bit moot.

Of course all of them thought aikido was valid, but aikido's validity was no obstacle for them to step outside aikido's box, both technically and philosophical-spiritually.
Ok...Ok... a fair point, sure. How about the fact they gravitated toward Aikido as experienced martial artists and didn't reach the level of O'Sensei. What attracted them to Aikido, as experienced martial artists, what was it in Aikido for them they didn't have?
 
Old 08-18-2008, 06:39 PM   #40
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
and

It also can be said that none of the students of the founder reached his level, doesn't matter if they were experienced martial artists before meeting him, or if they crosstrained or if they trained aikido only so your point is a bit moot.

.
Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, that would actually make your point moot. According to your statement they didn't get to his level and then they went back to something else. That isn't my experience and I wouldn't agree with that statement.
I personally see immense value in the training of the many masters with whom I have had the pleasure and privelidge to train.I don't know one of them who would make claims about holes in O-Sensei's training or teaching. They are all still in awe and reverence for him and still strive to hold in their hearts what they experienced with him. And like the rest of us, they use the entirety of their lifes experience to add to the art and to it's continuance. They don't yearn for the 'good 'ol days when we could kick some serious ass.' They yearn to be closer to O-Sensei's Aikido and they wish they'd spent more time listening to him and less time being in a hurry to do some "real martial arts" instead of "enduring his lectures about harmony". At least that's what I've been told directly.
Simply put: They are wiser then any of the dichotomies posited here.
Probably even mine that I can't yet see.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-18-2008 at 06:42 PM.

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Old 08-18-2008, 06:46 PM   #41
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I disagree with the statement that Roy Dean is going backwards. Maybe he feels the same passion to use the martial applications of Aikido and leave the religious methodology out.

Roy Deans is doing a fantastic job, infusing Aikido/Jujutsu. That's what martial evolution is all about. Working with various aspects of self defense, attempting to infuse them if possible. Perhaps we're not traditionalist Aikidoka, whatever that means. We enjoy Aiki principles and respect Aikido for it's various forms. His positive attitude and professionalism along with his terrific ideas of making the self defense connection, is what we need to propel Aikido to the next phase of evolution.
Well that's a thought.

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-18-2008 at 06:56 PM.

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Old 08-18-2008, 06:48 PM   #42
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

These experienced martial arts where stepping into Aikido, taking from Aikido. I think it says something strongly about Aikido. These experience martial artists, were they going to Aikido to evolve their arts? O'Sensei didn't go to them.

You really have to see Aikido as a complete art. Maybe not as brutal or lethal as some other arts. But as equally humane as most other modern martial art of its time. I don't think we should measure an art by its brutality, but by its humanity. That is evolution.

Last edited by Buck : 08-18-2008 at 06:54 PM.
 
Old 08-18-2008, 07:44 PM   #43
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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These experienced martial arts where stepping into Aikido, taking from Aikido. I think it says something strongly about Aikido. These experience martial artists, were they going to Aikido to evolve their arts? O'Sensei didn't go to them.

You really have to see Aikido as a complete art. Maybe not as brutal or lethal as some other arts. But as equally humane as most other modern martial art of its time. I don't think we should measure an art by its brutality, but by its humanity. That is evolution.
I agree in part. Barbarism is a means to destruction. Roy Dean nor myself are looking for brutality. Roy Dean's countless videos don't demonstrate nor do they advocate brutality. I'm not sure why the assumption is brutality. Some want healthy, fun, challenging, social experiences that foster good behavior without dictatorial idioms.

Just because we don't practice O'sensei's religious beliefs or adhere to the Shinto Omoto methodology, does not make us inhumane. People can be at peace, advocate peace and celebrate peace without adhering to a religious order. Aikido is not religion for me. That's really a turn off.

The Judokas have allowed individuals to be practitioners of various sorts. Some are Traditionalist Judoka, some are Sport Judoka and some are Self Defense Judoka. I myself want the self defense Aikido for the simple natural human reason of self defense, but I would like to have fun while doing so. It's a natural human response to protect. It's not natural to be inhumane.
 
Old 08-18-2008, 08:25 PM   #44
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

"Aikido Masters Volume 1, Shioda Sensei said today's Aikido was dimensionless, empty of content and nothing more than an imitation of the real thing."

"Really Something to think about" Someone of his stature saying that, wow!
 
Old 08-18-2008, 10:26 PM   #45
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I agree in part. Barbarism is a means to destruction. Roy Dean nor myself are looking for brutality. Roy Dean's countless videos don't demonstrate nor do they advocate brutality. I'm not sure why the assumption is brutality. Some want healthy, fun, challenging, social experiences that foster good behavior without dictatorial idioms.

Just because we don't practice O'sensei's religious beliefs or adhere to the Shinto Omoto methodology, does not make us inhumane. People can be at peace, advocate peace and celebrate peace without adhering to a religious order. Aikido is not religion for me. That's really a turn off.

The Judokas have allowed individuals to be practitioners of various sorts. Some are Traditionalist Judoka, some are Sport Judoka and some are Self Defense Judoka. I myself want the self defense Aikido for the simple natural human reason of self defense, but I would like to have fun while doing so. It's a natural human response to protect. It's not natural to be inhumane.
I hope you don't think that I was pointing a finger. I wasn't, I was pointing out evolution in terms of moving from brutality to humanity. Like the saying goes, from swords to plowshares.

I personally think O'Sensei beliefs are difficult to understand because they are written in a coded way, but the main idea is pretty clear. From what I read he didn't really go into detailed explaining of allot of what he said. But what ever you believe there is a core at O'Sensei's Aikido and that is budo; self-victory, good character, etc. There is a core message at his philosophy that is understandable and universal, peace over war, etc. yet that even has its paradoxes, but O'Sensei was Japanese and of a different era. Point is, you don't have to follow his religious beliefs to understand Aikido isn't about combat fighting like the days of feudal Japan. You don't kill your opponent rather you work from within a modern humaneness- done without inflicting any more pain than is necessary. Most gendai martial arts work from the same humane view including Judo, Shotokan, etc. You don't need to convert to Omoto religion that is a personal choice. But you do have to understand the reasoning behind the application of the techniques are done from a humane base.

What I seen in the clip was well done. But, it is a lateral shift and not evolution. To evolve Aikido you have to do it in all areas of Aikido, and not just technical application of techniques. The would include in the area of technique the approach, principle, etc to result in a evolved way that no physical contact was made and the attacker would lose all aggression. Whether that is possible or not, I don't know. But it would be more in line with evolution of Aikido base on what it is in whole. Adding a technique to Aikido from judo to take a person to the ground is just fighting on a different surface. It is cross-breeding two arts. I am not too familiar with Tomiki Aikido, but I think it already has been done. That is not because Aikido needs Judo to evolve it.

Today with MMA popularity as a sport, many people all they see is MMA. That is maybe because that is all they know because MMA placed it's self in a sports venue which grew out of BJJ. The BJJ idea was take the fight to the ground and use jujitsu and from there venues like UFC were born and molded. They made that style of fighting popular. Sure fights do go to the ground and they always have, and that is where wrestling started so many centuries ago. And MMA appeal is that it mixes standing and ground fighting in one venue. If boxing and wrestling did that before MMA it would have been just as popular as MMA. What am saying is that Aikido techniques working are in a different venue with different purpose when used for MMA purposes then reduced Aikido techniques to their base element of jujitsu. That is appealing to those who are into MMA and what to combine Aikido with MMA. But does placing Aikido techniques into the MMA mix evolve MMA ?

I think seeing MMA evolving Aikido is a natural thing to think from those who started out in the MMA sport, and see Aikido as they see MMA.

I see anything wrong with grafting Aikido technique as the clip shows for MMA use. I honestly don't see it as evolution that improves Aikido, I see that it improves MMA.
 
Old 08-19-2008, 06:55 AM   #46
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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How about the fact they gravitated toward Aikido as experienced martial artists and didn't reach the level of O'Sensei. What attracted them to Aikido, as experienced martial artists, what was it in Aikido for them they didn't have?
I suppose some of the founder's students approached him looking to learn more, without attachement to their previous training and emptying their cups, and I suppose others had different things in mind. Some were sent to study with him, like Mochizuki, others were approached by O Sensei, like Abbe ( yes, O Sensei looked for new students, what a surprise), and surely there was people who didn't liked what they saw and moved away.

It's a case by case and every one of them deserve their own thread to avoid generalizations. The motivations of i.e. Tohei (who has Judo experience iirc, but also went to study under Nakamura Tempu) and the ones of i.e. Mochizuki (who was sent by Kano to study with Ueshiba) probably were a bit different.

Quote:
You really have to see Aikido as a complete art. Maybe not as brutal or lethal as some other arts. But as equally humane as most other modern martial art of its time. I don't think we should measure an art by its brutality, but by its humanity. That is evolution.
Complete?, I don't think so. Valid, interesting and worth studying yes, but complete?... I doubt it.

Btw, arts are not humane, people is and evolution (and its mechanisms) is a different thing.

 
Old 08-19-2008, 07:07 AM   #47
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Unless I'm reading this incorrectly, that would actually make your point moot. According to your statement they didn't get to his level and then they went back to something else. That isn't my experience and I wouldn't agree with that statement.
Let me rephrase: relating previous or concurrent martial arts training (or lack of it) with surpassing O Sensei has no point as we can say noone reached his level, much less surpassed him.

Of course, if someone has reached or surpassed O Sensei is debatable and opinions may vary, surely for some this has happened and for some this could be seen as heresy.

Like everything, it depends.

 
Old 08-19-2008, 08:46 AM   #48
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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I hope you don't think that I was pointing a finger. I wasn't, I was pointing out evolution in terms of moving from brutality to humanity. Like the saying goes, from swords to plowshares.

I personally think O'Sensei beliefs are difficult to understand because they are written in a coded way, but the main idea is pretty clear. From what I read he didn't really go into detailed explaining of allot of what he said. But what ever you believe there is a core at O'Sensei's Aikido and that is budo; self-victory, good character, etc. There is a core message at his philosophy that is understandable and universal, peace over war, etc. yet that even has its paradoxes, but O'Sensei was Japanese and of a different era. Point is, you don't have to follow his religious beliefs to understand Aikido isn't about combat fighting like the days of feudal Japan. You don't kill your opponent rather you work from within a modern humaneness- done without inflicting any more pain than is necessary. Most gendai martial arts work from the same humane view including Judo, Shotokan, etc. You don't need to convert to Omoto religion that is a personal choice. But you do have to understand the reasoning behind the application of the techniques are done from a humane base.

What I seen in the clip was well done. But, it is a lateral shift and not evolution. To evolve Aikido you have to do it in all areas of Aikido, and not just technical application of techniques. The would include in the area of technique the approach, principle, etc to result in a evolved way that no physical contact was made and the attacker would lose all aggression. Whether that is possible or not, I don't know. But it would be more in line with evolution of Aikido base on what it is in whole. Adding a technique to Aikido from judo to take a person to the ground is just fighting on a different surface. It is cross-breeding two arts. I am not too familiar with Tomiki Aikido, but I think it already has been done. That is not because Aikido needs Judo to evolve it.

Today with MMA popularity as a sport, many people all they see is MMA. That is maybe because that is all they know because MMA placed it's self in a sports venue which grew out of BJJ. The BJJ idea was take the fight to the ground and use jujitsu and from there venues like UFC were born and molded. They made that style of fighting popular. Sure fights do go to the ground and they always have, and that is where wrestling started so many centuries ago. And MMA appeal is that it mixes standing and ground fighting in one venue. If boxing and wrestling did that before MMA it would have been just as popular as MMA. What am saying is that Aikido techniques working are in a different venue with different purpose when used for MMA purposes then reduced Aikido techniques to their base element of jujitsu. That is appealing to those who are into MMA and what to combine Aikido with MMA. But does placing Aikido techniques into the MMA mix evolve MMA ?

I think seeing MMA evolving Aikido is a natural thing to think from those who started out in the MMA sport, and see Aikido as they see MMA.

I see anything wrong with grafting Aikido technique as the clip shows for MMA use. I honestly don't see it as evolution that improves Aikido, I see that it improves MMA.
We probably will never agree on the methodology of Aikido and could continue this forever. People attribute a lot of things to O'sensei historically that aren't fact. I want go into detail here, that's another thread.

I'm not a traditionalist Aikidoka, so attempting to prove your method of applying Aikido to my method, we"ll just continue to spin our wheels. Ki Aikido, Yoshinkan and Yoseikan Aikido are worlds apart, different methodologies. You want be able to convince one or the other that it's not Aikido. The Aiki concepts are all there.

I suggest reading Stanley Pranin's, "Is O'sensei Really the Father of Modern Aikido." Stanley Pranin has done extensive research on the history of Aikido and has interview many of the early practitioners. He speaks fluent Japanese and lived in Japan for many years from the late 1960's. You may be surprised at the data presented.

http://www.aikido-iwama.ru/text1_en.html

By the way, I'm not a fan of the current MMA sport perse. I have always believed in mixing martial arts from the early days of the Jeet Kune Do concept movement nearly over 30 years ago. So with that, MMA is really commercialized. Jeet Kune Do concepts were never commercialized and most people didn't really know what it was 20 or 30 years ago, until the MMA craze brought it to the world. MMA definitely has something that you can take from it, but not really my style. I'm interested strictly in self defense and good exercise for a healthy life style.

Cheers....
 
Old 08-19-2008, 08:52 AM   #49
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post

Complete?, I don't think so. Valid, interesting and worth studying yes, but complete?... I doubt it.

Btw, arts are not humane, people is and evolution (and its mechanisms) is a different thing.
By complete I don't mean a set of techniques that can handle all and every situation with super human ability. But, rather all the tools needed to draw on. You don't have to go outside the art to get something. If your lacking something it isn't because Aikido doesn't have it.
 
Old 08-19-2008, 10:24 AM   #50
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Re: The continued Evolution of Aikido

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Let me rephrase: relating previous or concurrent martial arts training (or lack of it) with surpassing O Sensei has no point as we can say noone reached his level, much less surpassed him.

Of course, if someone has reached or surpassed O Sensei is debatable and opinions may vary, surely for some this has happened and for some this could be seen as heresy.

Like everything, it depends.
But it does have everything to do with sequence of events and the sharing of inspiration. I believe his true omote techniques weren't hidden at all. People just didn't want to give up their previous ideas and absorb something 'new'. Hence, they go back to what they knew.While what was 'hidden' was so simple it was right under their noses.

Depending on what his viewpoint was of what it was he was actually communicating, well some may have surpassed him. My mission: I'm interested in joning him in spirit and training to a common cause. To create a world of familial grace through budo.That is my continuing commitment.

My teachers often comment that he expressed a wish for people to surpass him, but he lamented that no one was even following him. I would think heresy determinations can be saved for religious governments. Not awakened people.

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