Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2008, 06:01 PM   #151
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

The Aikidoka would have to possess some level of a background in a standup Art to be able to evade or at least make a way to execute an Aikido technique. I think the guys in the video, although not very proficient with atemi, at least try to prove a point. No one else, at least on the internet, that I know of, is brave enough to step up to the challenge. I agree with you. I would love to see a 5th or 6th dan match up against a bonifed boxer.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 07:34 AM   #152
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Boxing match

A number of years ago, I tried a boxing round with a friend of mine who was a very merited boxer. These punches really hurt
He made a swing to my side, not a very committed one, and still it felt like my whole waist moved to the other side, like when you open a drawer.

Anyway, by time my arms started to modify things, without my conscious mind getting involved in it. Because my hands were covered with gloves, they occasionally turned upward, to hit with the very hard surface on the bottom of the palm, where the glove is tied. I had to restrain myself...

At a point, I tried a hook to his head, which he ducked away from (very skillfully, I must add), so I made a returning swing with my arm and hit him with uraken on the other side of his head.
That sure didn't hurt him in the least, but he stopped and was completely surprised.
"What was that?" he asked.
He had not seen what I did, not at all.
I explained it, and he realized why he had not seen it: Such a technique is not allowed in boxing.

Every martial art has its set of rules, and thereby its limitations.

At my present dojo, which has several martial arts, the boxing instructor is a former world champion. A very nice man, and a wonderful martial arts teacher, showing nothing but respect and appreciation for the other martial arts. Well, he's done a few of them.
I wouldn't dream of trying a round with him, though...

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 08:35 AM   #153
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Leave it to Brazilians to adapt a Japanese martial art to make it effective in a streetfight. Gotta LOVE those Brazilians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVcWscrN2FU
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 11:51 AM   #154
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Thanks Salim for the vids. Good Stuff. I will simply echo the words of Stefan with a small addition. In a sword based Tai-Jutsu like ours it's helpful to think of the Ukes strike as an extension of his sword. So to try to capture the sword or block the sword can be dangerous. One must get out of the way of the Tsuki or Shomen and "influance" the persons center. So my "reply" as Nage to a strike involves letting the strike pass.l If it is a feint then I must have the acumen (and courage) to allow Uke to enter Otherwise we are on Uke's terms. Most of the time I use Atemi by striking a place Uke does not expect when he enters.

I have a friend who used to take practice with us. She is a well known author in her field and I will never forget Fowler Sensei's answer to her question of "What do I do if he tries to hit me like this!!!"

He simply said..."duck" LOL

She put that in one of her books.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 12:46 PM   #155
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks Salim for the vids. Good Stuff. I will simply echo the words of Stefan with a small addition. In a sword based Tai-Jutsu like ours it's helpful to think of the Ukes strike as an extension of his sword. So to try to capture the sword or block the sword can be dangerous. One must get out of the way of the Tsuki or Shomen and "influance" the persons center. So my "reply" as Nage to a strike involves letting the strike pass.l If it is a feint then I must have the acumen (and courage) to allow Uke to enter Otherwise we are on Uke's terms. Most of the time I use Atemi by striking a place Uke does not expect when he enters.

I have a friend who used to take practice with us. She is a well known author in her field and I will never forget Fowler Sensei's answer to her question of "What do I do if he tries to hit me like this!!!"

He simply said..."duck" LOL

She put that in one of her books.

William Hazen
Yes, I agree with you in theory. Ducking from punches is not always easy, nor is controlling the attackers center, though it is possible. Like my sensei always saids, "the hand is quicker than the eye." I study Burmese Bando prior to Aikido. We learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm a pretty quick puncher and weigh almost 200 lbs. My sensei is a 4 dan, from Aikikai organization. I tested my sensei once. He had to grab me to restrain the array of punches and kicks that were stinging him. I landed several low kicks that he was not able to stop and punched him pretty hard a couple of times to the face. Once he was in close, then he was able to execute an Aikido technique. My weakness was ground fighting and close proximity at the time. He applied what I think was probably a half Koshinage technique, then applied a choke to restrain me. He choked me pretty hard to make me stop. Really nothing like the thousands of Aikido demonstrations in the videos. I asked, what happen to the the crisp, pretty Aikido techniques. He stated there is Aikido for showing the technique fully and there is Aikido for self defense which sometimes needs to slightly adapt to the situation. I think realism is severely overlooked to often.

Last edited by salim : 08-11-2008 at 12:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 03:43 AM   #156
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
The koan of realism

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I think realism is severely overlooked to often.
True, but realism is not that easy to get at. Many forms of training that claim to be very realistic can be questioned.
For example, boxing gloves change the techniques and effects significantly. That's not so very realistic. Rules as to what tori is allowed to do makes uke's approach and reactions unrealistic. And on and on.

I believe that Osensei regarded his aikido as very realistic, and so did most or all budo teachers of old. They did not mean winning a match. Their definitions about that reality, and their conclusions, differ much from a lot of such speculations today, which seem mainly to be based on match like situations - and not "shiai".

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 04:30 AM   #157
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Atemi applications

Yesterday after class, we filmed a few examples of atemi applications in aikido. I regard them as "realistic", but I'm sure that can be debated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 11:16 AM   #158
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Yes, I agree with you in theory. Ducking from punches is not always easy, nor is controlling the attackers center, though it is possible. Like my sensei always saids, "the hand is quicker than the eye." I study Burmese Bando prior to Aikido. We learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm a pretty quick puncher and weigh almost 200 lbs. My sensei is a 4 dan, from Aikikai organization. I tested my sensei once. He had to grab me to restrain the array of punches and kicks that were stinging him. I landed several low kicks that he was not able to stop and punched him pretty hard a couple of times to the face. Once he was in close, then he was able to execute an Aikido technique. My weakness was ground fighting and close proximity at the time. He applied what I think was probably a half Koshinage technique, then applied a choke to restrain me. He choked me pretty hard to make me stop. Really nothing like the thousands of Aikido demonstrations in the videos. I asked, what happen to the the crisp, pretty Aikido techniques. He stated there is Aikido for showing the technique fully and there is Aikido for self defense which sometimes needs to slightly adapt to the situation. I think realism is severely overlooked to often.
Hmmm I think ducking has more than likely saved me from getting hit a few times LOL as has "moving out of the way."

I am curious did your Sensei try to hit or kick you?

Ahhh yes realism...If I were to follow that paradigm completely I would run out of training partners very quickly and have a few trips to the hospital myself...

Realism in the Martial Arts has to do with pain and how to manage it.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 03:03 PM   #159
salim
Location: Greensboro North Carolina
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 370
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Hmmm I think ducking has more than likely saved me from getting hit a few times LOL as has "moving out of the way."

I am curious did your Sensei try to hit or kick you?

Ahhh yes realism...If I were to follow that paradigm completely I would run out of training partners very quickly and have a few trips to the hospital myself...

Realism in the Martial Arts has to do with pain and how to manage it.

William Hazen
Sure, my sensei kicked and used atemi. I'm faster and stronger than he is, but he was smart and executed a very effective choke.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 03:13 PM   #160
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Yesterday after class, we filmed a few examples of atemi applications in aikido. I regard them as "realistic", but I'm sure that can be debated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ
Hey Stefan,

Thanks for the video. Good Atemi.

This brings up a good point though that I had not considered. Perspective. The probelm is not so much the atemi, when speaking of realism..it is all the other "stuff" that goes along with the atemi, such as multiple strikes, mass of the oponent, and the ever changing dynamic of the situation.

Realism must incorporate those aspects.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 03:38 PM   #161
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Realism

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The problem is not so much the atemi, when speaking of realism..it is all the other "stuff" that goes along with the atemi, such as multiple strikes, mass of the oponent, and the ever changing dynamic of the situation.
Realism must incorporate those aspects.
True. Realism is quite complex, as is reality
I actually think that the traditional martial arts have it quite well figured out. They've been around long enough for it. Modern revisions are not always aware of that complexity. Then again, many practitioners of traditional martial arts seem not to pay that much attention to it, either.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 06:43 PM   #162
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

True, good points.

  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 11:49 AM   #163
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,447
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

I don't want to comment on the "realism" aspect of anything. For me, reality is made because it includes anything that can happen. Therefore, anything can be real. I'm coming from a different point of view here...

A thing I have been trying to suggest here is that Aikido, as it is practiced in most places today, is in some cases plagued by the notion of what to do with atemi, while in other places folks could care less. Somewhere in the middle, whenever you have folks attempting to address the issue of atemi, you get what, to me, always looks like alien's or chimps that find a remote control. They can press the buttons, they can use it to shovel with, they can put their drink on it, etc., but while they find uses for it, it still looks out of place, forced, embryonic in its method and application, etc.

I realize some folks put out whole seminars on atemi, but for me this is more a sign of what I'm saying than proof to the contrary. It's like this: when you have to utter the phrase, "All men are created equal," it's telling you at the time it was uttered, not all men were thought of as equal. To be specific, when you have to have a seminar all on atemi, it's a sign folks are more like chimps finding a remote control than they are not when it comes to aikidoka practicing atemi. In other words, there are other martial arts, and as they have striking truly being an important part of their art's application and identification, they NEVER have seminars all on atemi. They just have seminars - the atemi goes without saying.

What happens when folks deal with atemi aikido is folks always look more like they are playing or experimenting with atemi - this is what I'm trying to say. As a result, things always look like trial runs more than anything else. It looks like this because in almost every case that you see this experimentation with atemi, you see principles being used that violate their own general understanding of basic aikido kihon waza.

For example, in basic kihon waza, uke always penetrates to the spinal ring of nage, nage always moves off the line of attack to avoid the effects of uke's mass penetrating to this point, nage's tactical applications are fluid and in constant motion (with little to no reverse motion ever employed), angles are utilized to disturb uke's balance, to cross check his lateral weapons, and there is sense to the logic of the anatomical positioning, etc., BUT THEN when it comes to atemi applications, you always get this uke that just stands there, never penetrates enough, nage just stands on the line of attack, the strikes are never fluid (using lots of reverse motion), there are no angles being used to affect uke's balance and/or cross check his later weapons, and the anatomical position makes no sense, etc.

In the end, you get this notion of "Atemi in Aikido" but the application, outside of debates on what is real or not, allowing for every application to do whatever it says it can do, ends up violating almost every principle in basic Aikido kihon waza. That's what makes it look like the atemi is something folks are just trying to lay over their general practice - trying to find uses, like trying to find uses for a remote control.

For me, it's like putting a hat on a pig. That's what it always looks like. You can do it, but it looks funny (and probably to the pig too), and folks are going to ask, "Why?" (probably pigs too). With Aikido being so insulated an art, most Aikido folks don't hear the "Why?" and so they just go on putting hats on pigs.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 11:59 AM   #164
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,447
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

More fuel for the discussion (as most folks have a lot to say about this usually):

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...eflection.html

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 12:03 PM   #165
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Good Points David but that has never been my experience with Aikido as we practice it.

Like I said realism to me means dealing with pain as a result of getting hit, kicked, and thrown hard.

Aikido simply does not work without Atemi. So if one is practicing Aikido without Atemi well....

Not my cup of tea.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 01:52 PM   #166
ChrisMoses
Dojo: TNBBC (Icho Ryu Aiki Budo), Shinto Ryu IaiBattojutsu
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 919
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
More fuel for the discussion (as most folks have a lot to say about this usually):

http://www.senshincenter.com/pages/v...eflection.html
The issue I have with all of these is that they all reinforce getting back and away from someone striking at you. In my view, that's the opposite of Aiki. The first two in particular reinforce the need to withdraw and retreat in the face of strikes/attacks. The third seems to demonstrate how this trained behavior creates additional weaknesses. That is to say, because in the first two drills the receiver has been conditioned to back up and get distance when faced with an attack, the overt feints in the third clip have the desired result they do (to the extent that they do) because the students have been conditioning react and retreat rather than ENTER.

We've been playing more with some freeform and striking stuff and my experience has been that the further you get from enter and control the further you get from Aiki.

Chris Moses
TNBBC, "Putting the ME in MEdiocre!"
Budo Tanren at Seattle School of Aikido
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 05:00 PM   #167
gregg block
 
gregg block's Avatar
Location: bethlehem PA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Yesterday after class, we filmed a few examples of atemi applications in aikido. I regard them as "realistic", but I'm sure that can be debated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ
very nice, I like like your technique off the extended jab. A good boxer will keep that 'stinger" moving though and much tougher to grab that way. but I love the technique.
also nice front kick off the right hand..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 05:23 PM   #168
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
The issue I have with all of these is that they all reinforce getting back and away from someone striking at you. In my view, that's the opposite of Aiki. The first two in particular reinforce the need to withdraw and retreat in the face of strikes/attacks. The third seems to demonstrate how this trained behavior creates additional weaknesses. That is to say, because in the first two drills the receiver has been conditioned to back up and get distance when faced with an attack, the overt feints in the third clip have the desired result they do (to the extent that they do) because the students have been conditioning react and retreat rather than ENTER.

We've been playing more with some freeform and striking stuff and my experience has been that the further you get from enter and control the further you get from Aiki.
Amen. This has been my experience too.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 06:51 PM   #169
eyrie
 
eyrie's Avatar
Location: Summerholm, Queensland
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,126
Australia
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
What happens when folks deal with atemi aikido is folks always look more like they are playing or experimenting with atemi - this is what I'm trying to say. As a result, things always look like trial runs more than anything else. It looks like this because in almost every case that you see this experimentation with atemi, you see principles being used that violate their own general understanding of basic aikido kihon waza.
...
In the end, you get this notion of "Atemi in Aikido" but the application, outside of debates on what is real or not, allowing for every application to do whatever it says it can do, ends up violating almost every principle in basic Aikido kihon waza. That's what makes it look like the atemi is something folks are just trying to lay over their general practice - trying to find uses, like trying to find uses for a remote control.
Well said! You've hit the nail on the head. To throw another spanner in the works... Ellis writes in "Dueling with O'Sensei"... (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Each aikido technique must bear the shadow skeleton of atemi. If atemi is not a possibility at every point along the continuum of a technique, then that technique would be impossible to exert against a trained opponent.... Therefore, from the moment of touching one's opponent to the moment contact is broken, one is not merely throwing or locking. One is simultaneously organized to strike a powerful and effective blow. Even when one makes no movement to actually strike the opponent, one should be able to do so. - p45
What this says to me, is that the atemi (or potential for atemi), should be indistinguishable from the continuum and flow of the technique. I.e. at any point within the execution of the technique, one is poised to strike at any time.

Further, he writes that atemi itself is the manifestation of kokyu. Using the 2nd technique (sayunage/sokumen irimi nage) in Stefan's video as an example... even though it is clearly for demo purposes, that elbow strike, perhaps done at a more "realistic" pace, should be virtually indistinguishable from the technique itself... IOW, hidden in plain sight. If Stefan had simply performed the technique as the intended aikido technique, but with the intent of hitting uke with his elbow, or perhaps, positioning himself into the entry such that uke ran into his elbow, what it would look like, should be virtually indistinguishable from one as is normally done, without the obvious atemi.

Ignatius
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 09:33 PM   #170
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

I think Ellis is spot on with his theory.
That said, The real issues remains.
1. Knowing it
2 Doing it
3. Knowing how to do it
4. Knowing how to teach it to others

The video's shown here are nothing more than people adding strikes to their waza. Nothing new, nothing even worth discussing as I see it. Most all of us have seen strikes added some on the level of High schoolers adding punches, on to some really advanced, subtle and slippery movements. In the end though. It isn't aiki. It's aikido-with punches.

Adding strikes in the way most seem to want to display them-will allow you to fight better. And that's about all most anybody wants anyway. But again, it has nothing to with aiki, nor anything at all to do with what Takeda talked about with "One strike, one kill." Yes that was THEE source of Ueshibas famous quote on Atemi.
Further, none of this should be about atemi. It's about ate-waza. I've discussed this with Ellis, and trust me his ideas were nothing as rudimentary as the idea of someone making up ten punches along a curve into a throw or lock. His idea was more advanced than that. I'm not really convinced he himself can yet live up to the rather high level of the very idea he himself put forth! Were people to really understand it, I think they would see him pointing in a direction. Not claiming complete understanding yet himself. I've not heard different from him.

That said, the ate waza happening all along the continuum is for one reason only. That the power within the body is present and availably all along that continuum at all times on all surfaces of the body. Therefore there is no preparation, wind-up, no chambering of the hips, no loss due to rebound, no distance "break" and no slack. Just a smooth emanation. Aiki punch, is aiki / punch. It's all the same, all the time. The body skill and ability is in DR, and in Taiji, and probably still somewhere in Aikido.
I've not seen it yet here in any video. Not one. Nor have I seen an understanding of it discussed with any real substance among aikidoka anywhere here or on other public boards so far.

Ueshiba was not looking like a boxer or a Karateka to generate power was he? He didn't change to do something else in order to effect and ate waza. In fact his own Ukes talked abut it often. And I believe it was Ellis again who discussed a reported eye witness account of Ueshiba putting his hand on a Judokas hip at the Kodokan and separating it.
The power is inexorably intertwined with aiki. There is no atemi separate from aiki. Aiki is ate.
The control is in the touch. The touch, is aiki power to direct and change them, the strike is simply acceleration. No big change, no wind up, no hip chambering and separations.
I honestly think almost everybody missed what we were supposed to be doing all along and are now looking to external PK methods to make up for the lack and calling it good. That isn't Aikido, and never was.

Last edited by DH : 08-14-2008 at 09:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 10:42 PM   #171
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,447
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
The issue I have with all of these is that they all reinforce getting back and away from someone striking at you. In my view, that's the opposite of Aiki. The first two in particular reinforce the need to withdraw and retreat in the face of strikes/attacks. The third seems to demonstrate how this trained behavior creates additional weaknesses. That is to say, because in the first two drills the receiver has been conditioned to back up and get distance when faced with an attack, the overt feints in the third clip have the desired result they do (to the extent that they do) because the students have been conditioning react and retreat rather than ENTER.

We've been playing more with some freeform and striking stuff and my experience has been that the further you get from enter and control the further you get from Aiki.
Nice points. Thanks. Here's what I'm thinking - this is posed to everyone (not just Chris):

First: Drills only "reinforce" things when they happen away from a larger cultivation of non-attachment. For the practitioner whose training is aimed at spontaneity, drills are both the need for such freedom as they are the chance for such freedom (in that the drill aims one toward restriction and habit if the body/mind is not cultivated properly). There is no such problem going on regarding reinforcement at our dojo.

Second: This relating to the first point, the text on the accompanying page reads: "In the third drill, seen in Clip Four, practitioners are again to limit their Angle of Deviation and restrict the application of Yang energy for the purposes of increasing ballistic action's tendency to fetter the body/mind. Continuing on with employing Metsuke and Angle of Deflection under circumstances that are more challenging to the body/mind (in regards to the cultivation of non-attachment), the receiving practitioner is to govern both tactical principles by the fulfillment of entering into Shikaku at the back of the striking practitioner. The adoption of a tactical "goal" -- as a future event -- further increases the likelihood of the body/mind becoming fettered by things, ideas, feelings, and our sense of identity. Thus, through such training we penetrate deeper into the body/mind's tendency to habitually practice attachment. Alternately, a practitioner whose body/mind can remain centered will not feel restricted by the additional tactical objective nor by the manner in which it must be achieved. The body/mind that is purified of egocentric tendencies does not experience the workings of the world, which includes the parameters of these drills, in any sort of negative and/or restrictive sense. Such a body/mind gains the capacity to remain creative, and/or on the side of creation, at all times and within all worlds. To further cultivate this sense of ultimate freedom and/or of martial creativity, an even greater restriction is placed upon the receiving practitioner regarding his/her entering into Shikaku. While it must occur naturally (i.e. in an unforced manner), it must also occur fully. What is sought is a clear placement of one's own body in the "dead angle" at the back of the striking practitioner. Therefore, receiving practitioners are instructed to attach themselves to both hips and the center of the striking practitioner to mark the complete fulfillment of the tactical objective of entering into Shikaku. Toward this end, striking practitioners continue in the same fashion as they did in the second drill while receiving practitioners allow their entry into Shikaku to happen of its own accord -- as something natural and in harmony with all things."

That said, I think it is pretty clear what is and is not being worked on. In that light, there is no aim here to fight. I would hardly fight that way. Rather, the aim is to cultivate things that may be utilized in a fight but that go way beyond such things as well. There is a restriction here, one that is easy to re-produce elsewhere: You must limit Yang initiations while at the same time entering fully to the rear of the attacker. In other words, you aren't supposed to just do the thing you always do - as that is habitual (the opposite of the training). Additionally, you aren't supposed to Irimi any ol' way. The parameters are set, and they are set for a reason. They are confining, and are often viewed and experienced as such BUT only to the fettered body/mind. For the unfettered body/mind, it's all a matter of transition, bending, transferring, etc. I think one has to keep this in mind.

For me, this is important. Why? Because whether you are striking or throwing, locking, or grappling, what is missing more than anything else in my opinion is not one set of tactics or another, but rather the capacity for spontaneous application. Why is this important? Because the topic of reality has been raised several times in this thread, and yet spontaneity is the soil for what is real.

Third: I'd ask folks to read the accompanying text on the website page, and set themselves to re-produce these parameters on their own, in their own dojo. Put it on film. Share this here. I think that will give us a common context here. Here are the parameters in short: Have someone throw striking combinations at you, any combinations they want, have them try to hit you (put gloves on them or accept the impact of an ungloved strike), restrict weapons out of the scene, no ground-fighting, and then enter to the rear of the assigned attacker, taking their center at their hips to show you entered enough. I think if one did this, one would get a better idea of what is being worked on, what is not, and why.

If you've already attempted this drill, please share your experience here - or better, the video of it (as I know some folks have).

thanks,
dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 11:03 PM   #172
xuzen
 
xuzen's Avatar
Dojo: None at the moment - on hiatus
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 965
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Yesterday after class, we filmed a few examples of atemi applications in aikido. I regard them as "realistic", but I'm sure that can be debated...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW_oQEiXgWQ
More realistic would be for the uke holding a tanto or wooden jutte coming in fast and furious and does not stop in the middle of the technique standing like a wooden dummy waiting for Tori to do fancy-shmancy striking/atemi.

Boon

SHOMEN-ATE (TM), the solution to 90% of aikido and life's problems.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008, 02:42 AM   #173
Stefan Stenudd
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Stefan Stenudd's Avatar
Dojo: Enighet Malmo Sweden
Location: Malmo
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 538
Sweden
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
More realistic would be for the uke holding a tanto or wooden jutte coming in fast and furious and does not stop in the middle of the technique standing like a wooden dummy waiting for Tori to do fancy-shmancy striking/atemi.
Well, there's nothing less realistic with an unarmed attack. If by realism you mean a self-defense situation, most of them are against unarmed attacks - and extremely few are against jutte attacks.

As for "wooden dummy" and "fancy-shmancy"...
Well, anyway, the atemi on the video are meant to be actually striking ones. That would halt the attacker long enough for tori to do the following technique. I thought that was obvious.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008, 08:57 AM   #174
gregg block
 
gregg block's Avatar
Location: bethlehem PA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Xu Wenfung wrote: View Post
More realistic would be for the uke holding a tanto or wooden jutte coming in fast and furious and does not stop in the middle of the technique standing like a wooden dummy waiting for Tori to do fancy-shmancy striking/atemi.

Boon
more realistic where?? Are you often attacked by people with wooden jutte's outside the dojo. Are they ninja's??
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008, 04:01 PM   #175
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,447
United_States
Offline
Re: Atemi applications

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Well, anyway, the atemi on the video are meant to be actually striking ones. That would halt the attacker long enough for tori to do the following technique. I thought that was obvious.
Do you mean like these strikes tried to stop the forward progress of the person closing the gap here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlleDPgmDVM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIn3nQbobtE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCv8wClAC38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDz76O6r1ow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAhyB1xFuKM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhjn7i-JDks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIavZZRKFSA

I think there is a very sound tactical reasoning behind not staying on the line of attack. In my experience, it's directly related to timing being difficult, mass and inertia often being on the other attacker's side, accuracy never being guaranteed, etc.

When I lived through the Gracie world exposure, I saw it being based not only on the specialty of their technique/the general world ignorance of ground-fighting, but also saw it based upon an ignorance of strikers regarding their own tactics. That is to say, what made BJJ so successful early on was not only a general ignorance regarding ground-fighting on the part of non-practitioners but also a striker's ignorance regarding how to strike without opening oneself up to having the gap closed on them (taking them out of their striking game). Once strikers (re)figured this part of their own tactics out, the story changed a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJmUmaSBja8

For me, the standing in front and striking, expecting the strikes to stop the forward progress of the attacker, is not only not akin to general Aikido tactics but not at all enlightened to the truth the Gracie's were kind enough to share with the world at large. For me, I would not adopt it either as a practitioner or as a teacher. This may be Boon's point - if I'm reading him correctly.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Striking in your Aikido JamesC Training 41 06-09-2008 06:34 AM
Value of atemi DustinAcuff Techniques 67 06-08-2007 09:35 AM
Atemi, kuzushi and effectiveness L. Camejo Techniques 17 04-18-2004 11:35 AM
O Sensei starts "No Atemi" Aikido? tedehara Techniques 89 03-18-2004 09:28 AM
teaching effectiveness Hagen Seibert Techniques 28 05-03-2001 08:02 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:43 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate