Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-11-2008, 11:17 AM   #1
deathlinenetworks
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25
Malaysia
Offline
Exclamation Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Question: How does Christian Tissier train his students? Their ukemi is just perfect (smooth, swift, fast, wonderful, amazing, etc) I mean, they make it looks so easy. Makes me think their tatami is made out of spring... How can we learn to fall like them? Is there any "ukemi secrets"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 08:04 PM   #2
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Of course.

Step 1, get thrown a lot by Christian Tessier
Step 2: repeat step 1 as often as possible
Step 3: get thrown a lot by people who have worked with Christian Tessier a lot
Step 4: repeat step 3 as often as possible

Rob
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 02:15 AM   #3
deathlinenetworks
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

when i get rich in the future, i'll fly to france just to get thrown by him and his students
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 10:15 AM   #4
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Classic reply from Rob. I love the thread cause I find myself aspiring to take ukemi like these guys all the time.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 10:38 AM   #5
DanielR
Location: New York
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 158
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Improving my ukemi skills has been an obsession of mine for quite a while now, and Tissier Sensei's students are certainly up there.

I'm sure Rob's response was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but I thought I'd just offer my perspective: the "getting thrown a lot" approach has done practically nothing to improve my ukemi, especially the so-called soft high falls. I was only able to achieve noticeable progress after I got a chance to train under instructors like Frank Ostoff Sensei and Jan Nevelius Sensei who have developed, as part of their wider approach to Aikido, a clear methodology for teaching ukemi. Playing with their senior students has been a great help. Still much room for improvement

Interestingly, it sometimes happens that when I get thrown by a really good nage, it almost feels like a good ukemi happens by itself. But for me this only started to take place when I got some important issues of alignment, relaxation and uke-nage interaction worked out to some basic extent. The flip side of being thrown like that though is that a good nage can sometimes compensate for uke's deficient ukemi skills. So as the instructors I mentioned above emphasize, it's an important part of the learning process for the nage to gradually "let go" of the uke and let them take care of themselves.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 05:00 PM   #6
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 05:06 PM   #7
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
If you are interested in getting high level ukemi skills, just practice rolling and falling a lot. All you really have to do is take about six years off from trying to learn how to throw and spend it on learning to fall instead. This is of great benefit to the beginner because when you get back into trying to learn how to throw, you will then be able to attract the best people as training partners.
Benjamin,
I would agree with this and I would add:
This is of great benefit to anyone at any level of practice for the above said reasons. And if the 'best people' were also training this way imagine how many wonderful people the art we would be generating.Now that's evolution!
Best,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 05:58 PM   #8
Mary Turner
Dojo: Joshinkan
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 56
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

This is always easier said than done, but.. relax.

Also, I got some good advice recently about concentrating on "core" muscles to help achieve the rounded shape for a roll and to keep legs and toes from smacking too hard in a breakfall.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 11:14 PM   #9
bkedelen
 
bkedelen's Avatar
Dojo: Boulder Aikikai
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 446
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Someone PM'd me and reminded me of the critical point that ukemi encompasses far more than rolling and falling. This is an elementary concept which I should have begun looking into long before now. Rolls and falls are important, fun, and pretty easy to nail down compared to the rest of Aikido skills. Nevertheless, rolling and falling does not even encompass half of the body of skills to which the word "ukemi" refers. People who are interested in digging deeper into ukemi are going to have to develop seriously good attacks and work on the concept of "receiving" nage's technique without sacrificing the honesty of the attack. This type of real, sensitive paired training is, I think, significantly more challenging than learning the fairly simple solo gymnastics movements of rolling and falling.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 08:26 AM   #10
Daniel Blanco
Dojo: Suffolk Aikikai
Location: Patchogue
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 98
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

my advice would be to purchase the DVD on Ukemi by Sensei Donavan Waite ( USAF) would be a good start and intro. Knowledge of ukemi comes from developing a relationship with the mat, this is what i tell new students " the closer you get to the mat,the closer/friendlier the mat will be to you" you must relax and trust your Nage. Hope this helps.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 09:00 AM   #11
deathlinenetworks
Dojo: Aikido Seishinkan
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 25
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

thanks for the advices everyone. I have the same obsession with Daniel Rozenbaum. I'll roll and fall as much as I can and look into the DVD. If one day I'm able to find a way and do it as beautiful as Tissier's students, WOOTZ.....! I'll spread it to everyone.... The beauty of Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 10:05 AM   #12
James Edwards
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 76
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 10:46 AM   #13
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
James Edwards wrote: View Post
There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.
Just think about concrete or asphalt...!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 12:15 PM   #14
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

your ability to fall should precede your ability to throw.
Some of his students take great ukemi that looks good and does damage, but others take nice ukemi that looks nice and is long term forgiving...both are are tobi ukemi

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 12:17 PM   #15
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

tobi or not tobi, that is the question.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 01:29 PM   #16
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
James Edwards wrote: View Post
No offence but why is Tissier's students' ukemi so special? In my honest opinion they are often quite showy and sometimes impractical.

There is more to ukemi than just fancy flips and somersaults. It's not a show, it is a martial method that saves your body from damage.
I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-2008, 03:59 PM   #17
dalen7
 
dalen7's Avatar
Dojo: Karcag Aikido Club
Location: Karcag
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 750
Hungary
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

My Ukemi - well...not that good for sure.
In fact I hate taking ukemi for something as simple as Ikkyo, etc.
(It bothers my knee - specifically one side, so now I have to use one side all the time to protect the other knee.)

Would like to know how to do better Ukemi as well - guess I will see what happens.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

Art
http://www.lightofinfinity.org

Philosophical
http://dalen7.wordpress.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-2008, 06:53 AM   #18
James Edwards
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 76
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.
That has happened to me once. We don't usually do flips with anything and one of the few things we do it for is when someone does kotegaeshi to the side and much faster than usual. So one day I was experimenting a bit as my friend practiced kotegaeshi on me and I flipped to receive the technique. Instead of letting me land, my friend changed the technique mid-throw and pulled me in the other direction. I was lucky I still landed on my shoulders and back. Then I got a scoulding for doing that with normal kotegaishi..
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 10:05 AM   #19
mari
Dojo: Green Bay Aikikai
Location: Green Bay
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response. If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi. If done incorrectly and uke doesn't play along, it will result in uke just standing there with their arm slightly bent. And that is true for all Aikido. Shihan Tissier works with a fast moving uke, you can't do that type of Aikido static. You need to get uke moving, if they don't move, you need different approach to kotegaeshi, a more standard approach if you want to call it. And not just kote gaeshi, any technique. If you have ever been on the receiving end of that type of Aikdio, and nage was doing the right thing, there is no way you'd call Christian Tissier's Aikdio gymnastics.
But you can't have a standard kotegaeshi done to you and try to breakfall it. That doesn't make sense.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 11:26 AM   #20
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I agree completely. What they do has nothing to do with aikido. It is a kind of healthy gymnastic - this guys and girls jump themselves without any reason. But what is worse, such artificial and exaggerated response to a technique has as result that nage learns false technique. When he goes to the other style dojo, where nobody jump for him like that he is completely lost.His techniques are not working even if his partners cooperate, but he has impression that they do full power resistance.And he takes it personaly and gets angry.....

In the other hand, uke is conditioned mentally, that it is safe way to receive a technique. But in reality, it is a true only in Ch.Tissier style. Many styles will not allow such liberty for uke - and for a right reason - from martial point of view such liberty WILL be used by uke against nage.
So such fancy flips become very dangerous for uke, he stops to listen and feel nage's body and can be badly hurt.Doing high flying flip uke can't adapt his position if nage decide to change a technique.
Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 03:05 PM   #21
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Mariya Cacheva wrote: View Post
I cannot disagree more with most of the replies, saying that Christian Tissier's Aikido is healthy gymnastics and that uke's falls are artificial and exaggerated response.
You are reading too much in my post. I never said that 'Christian Tissier's Aikdio is gymnastics'. I said that ukemi of his uke is a healthy gymnastics.

Quote:
Mariya Cacheva wrote: View Post
If done correctly, like everything in Aikido, that kind of kotegaeshi will produce that kind of ukemi..
May be from your point of view
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn’t exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony'

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.

Last edited by NagaBaba : 08-15-2008 at 03:08 PM.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 03:07 PM   #22
NagaBaba
 
NagaBaba's Avatar
Location: Wild, deep, deadly North
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,145
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Please clarify.
Is this general opinion, or have you trained with Tissier and are speaking from direct experience?
Thanks
Direct experience.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-2008, 04:15 PM   #23
mari
Dojo: Green Bay Aikikai
Location: Green Bay
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 28
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
But when you will get more ikkyo under your belt you will observe, that CT is using very wide circles. This kind of movement is not locking joints at all. Normally you can't lead anybody with such movement if he doesn't know what to do, if he doesn't have idea that he must follow nage.

For sure, you can't lift anybody on air with such movement.

So, the real connection nage-uke doesn't exist and the successful throw is only possible when uke jumps by himself.
Speed of execution of technique has nothing to do with the necessity of flying in the air, attacker also can be very fast and match his movement with nage to redirect such large motion with no effort. That what we call 'harmony'

So all these large-motion techniques can be safely received using normal rolls forward or backward.
I will pretend that I didn't see the experience comment

You are right that you can't lock joints at that speed but that doesn't mean you can't move your uke by working on their balance, while still have full control over where they fall and how they do it.

Can you receive some of these techniques with a forward or a backward roll? Maybe. Depends on how well the technique is done. I saw below that you said you had direct experience with Christian Tissier, I haven't had the pleasure of being on the receiving end of his technique but I have practiced with people who try to learn from him. And to me it is just a different way to execute a technique. Not better, not worse. It is just different. I have to say that I like it a lot
In a couple of weeks, I will be able to practice for a whole month with people who learn directly from Tissier Shihan, I will make sure to try to take every technique rolling forward or backward and will let you know of the result
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008, 10:48 AM   #24
Mato-san
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 290
Iceland
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

CT has a yokomenuchi/yoko type angle to his kotegaishi and seems to break ukes balance well before sending them over with it into tobi ukemi....it is similar to that seen in aikijujutsu and heaps of styles of Aikido, he probably couldn`t execute it from a toe to toe no momentum situation, but I am sure he has a lot of other answers from there though (not my type of kotegaishi but looks nice and who am I to criticize CT`s technique) if he were to release earlier probably the showy flip would not be so necessary, some of his kaiten nage is light and I think doesn`t require big ukemi like that, but some of his soto kaiten would be down right painful if you did not tobi into it.
So yeah like Jennifer said "to tobi or not to tobi IS the question!"

I like his technique a whole bunch and would love to get on the receiving end of some of his tornado type waza.

Before you drive or steer your vehicle, you must first start the engine, release the brake and find gear!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-2008, 11:59 AM   #25
jennifer paige smith
 
jennifer paige smith's Avatar
Dojo: Confluence Aiki-Dojo / Santa Cruz Sword Club
Location: Santa Cruz
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,049
United_States
Offline
Re: Christian Tissier: Ukemi

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Direct experience.
In that case, I would like it if you were to elaborate on your experience. For example, the length of your experience, or perhaps extent,would be a better word. Or the context. Was it a workshop, did you take Ukemi from Tissier , and what level of practice were you at when you had that experience?
Thanks. I'd appreciate it.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Video: Christian Tissier sensei, Bercy 2008 akiy General 7 05-10-2008 02:22 PM
New interview with Christian Tissier Shihan (in English!) Guillaume Erard General 38 03-03-2008 10:31 AM
Christian Tissier Shihan Dublin June2007 Guillaume Erard Seminars 5 03-29-2007 10:52 AM
Seminar: Christian Tissier Shihan en Santiago de Chile AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 0 09-18-2003 06:28 PM
Christian Tissier Sensei Seminars Dana Seminars 4 02-26-2001 11:40 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:28 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate