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Old 08-10-2008, 10:13 PM   #1
salim
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Full Resistance

To often modern Aikido is not really tested against full resistance. The Shodokan school of Aikido and a few would be Aikidoka attempt to test there Aikido techniques against full resistance. They are usually ridiculed for their attempts and not appreciated for their efforts to prove or disprove a technique. The realities of a fully resisting uke makes the Aikido techniques sometimes unrecognizable, sometimes they simply are too difficult to apply. Maybe some techniques simply just don't work. Some in the Aikido world seem to have a difficult time accepting this reality. The below clip shows the Tomiki Aikido randori (toshu randori). Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration. I would love to hear from those who accept this reality and share your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGjDjsCWGY
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:29 AM   #2
salim
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Re: Full Resistance

Leave it to Brazilians to adapt a Japanese martial art to make it effective in a streetfight. That's why it doesn't look like the dance-like flowing of staged aikido demonstrations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVcWscrN2FU
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:39 AM   #3
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Full Resistance

That's not real resistance. It's just excessive recalcitrance.
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:53 AM   #4
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration.
Isn't real resistance fighting back. Instead of not trying to be pulled down, pinned, ... ?
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:12 AM   #5
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Re: Full Resistance

While these clips are supposed to be of aikido, they appear to be of people doing judo very badly. It certainly doesn't look like it would be effective in a streetfight. In its own way, the Shodokan stuff in these clips is as "unreal" as the more classical aikido styles are accused of being - only its a lot uglier.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
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Old 08-11-2008, 09:45 AM   #6
Janet Rosen
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
To often modern Aikido is not really tested against full resistance.
Salim, while I think I see what you are getting at, I also think there is another way to frame the intent of aikido.
If somebody is actively resisting a particular aikido technique, trying to impose that technique is NOT doing aikido.
If the attacker continually resists, then in essence, the attack itself is continually changing, and the response has to be continually changing, and the result would look like counters and reversals.

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Old 08-11-2008, 10:02 AM   #7
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
While these clips are supposed to be of aikido, they appear to be of people doing judo very badly.
But they still are aikido. Bad judo looks different (trust me, I'm an expert in bad judo).

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Old 08-11-2008, 10:21 AM   #8
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Unhappy Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
In its own way, the Shodokan stuff in these clips is as "unreal" as the more classical aikido styles are accused of being - only its a lot uglier.
I guess our resident Shodokan guys will not be happy with that... At least they do know they will get cut and/or stabbed!

Not that this is the best Shodokan I've seen either, but the system is to be respected for what it is. Yes, it's ugly. Fighting is not beautiful.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
But they still are aikido. Bad judo looks different (trust me, I'm an expert in bad judo).
Sorry Demetrio, you still has to see the one and only real bad judo. I'll send you a clip of me one of these days .

Best.
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Old 08-11-2008, 10:25 AM   #9
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Re: Full Resistance

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Dieter Haffner wrote: View Post
Isn't real resistance fighting back. Instead of not trying to be pulled down, pinned, ... ?
Maybe for you this is what you mean, by fighting back. See below. What I meant by resistance, is a non-cooperating uke. Trust me, I tested this with my 4dan sensei and he had to do similar techniques. I trained in Burmese Bando for 5 years prior to Aikido and learned how to punch and kick pretty good. He almost never could grab my hand exactly. I unleashed several punches to his head, lower stomach area. Most of them landed. I was trying to really make him feel my kicks and punches. He had to grab me, sort of like what you see in the video in order to execute an Aikido technique. Definitely not anything like the demonstrations on the internet. Demonstrations are just that, simply a well thought out demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw
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Old 08-11-2008, 01:50 PM   #10
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Re: Full Resistance

Aikido for all.

There are for sure moves that would be excellent to use in a MMA fight. (Maybe MMA will be an olympic sport - that would be entertaining for sure.)

Again, it seems that people get caught up in saying that 'one way' is the only way. (Even the BJJ people get caught up in this illusion)

One way is suitable for whatever circumstance it was created for, and even then it needs adaptation and fluidity. (Some could say this philosophy is what is at the heart of 'Aikido')

Again, Aikido can be to anyone whatever it is they want it to be.
Tai Chi like or used in competition...or both.

(caveat: twisting joints in sports can make it the last time you compete in said sport...but then I suppose getting your brain beaten out in MMA and boxing isnt much different.)

Peace

dAlen

p.s. -
Aikido, as it generally is learned, is quite effective.
When it becomes less effective...or rather needs adaptation, is when you have 2 people in a ring with the mind set of going at each other.

So if someone is in a bar and getting rowdy, someone could get a move rather easily - also in situations where it is push and shove and both sides are not really wanting to start hitting right away.

Again, different times, places, means that different techniques could be used and applied.

Aikido, on a darker note, would be an idea 'bully' sport - until someone gets tired of the person pushing them around and punches them in the face.
This is where emphasis in Aikido training would need to be about attitude - and not using it as a means to bully others.

Last edited by dalen7 : 08-11-2008 at 02:00 PM.

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Old 08-11-2008, 02:19 PM   #11
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Re: Full Resistance

Always so much confusion about this...

When people are pitting themselves against each other (a fight) there are two factors that cannot be overlooked: desire to win, and ability (technical skill, experience, physicality etc.).

Looking at the “bad Judo” comment. If you see high level Judoka, doing Judo at a highly competitive level, it looks like “bad Judo” (from the outside). Both competitors are very able, and have a true desire to win the match. Neither has the clear advantage in ability, or drive, so it becomes a tussle for grips and small advantages. This keeps the spectacular throws and clean technique down to a minimum.

If you compare this to a Judo newbie doing randori with the sensei you’ll get a different scenario. The newbie maybe full of desire to win the match, but he is no where near the ability level of the teacher, so he will be thrown in spectacular fashion time and again. Even though he has the desire, he lacks the ability. So the teacher even half trying can effortlessly defeat newbie time and again.

Another example would be when two competitors of equal ability match, but one is seriously invested in winning, while the other really doesn’t want to win. Sometimes you see this in competitive martial arts like Judo, but this can more often be seen in a street fight. When one guy wants to win at any cost, and the other just doesn’t want to get hurt. The one with less desire will almost always lose, even if he has more ability then his attacker.

In Aikido the uke never has the desire to “win”. So this makes it easy for nage to throw uke, even if uke is “better” then nage. This is why white belts can toss black belts with such beautiful throws. This is why Aikido always looks the way it does, there is no desire for uke to defeat nage.

The desire to “win” often makes it impossible to use clean, effortless technique. You’ll see during the match that if you just force this, or that a little bit, you could achieve victory. Now a philosophical argument could be made that, if you’d just give up your desire to “win”, you could always have clean effective technique. That is true, but then you’ll have to face the fact that if you ever get into a fight with someone with slightly less ability then you, but much more desire to win, you’ll always lose. When your children's lives are on the line that’s not really an option, you want to win.

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Old 08-11-2008, 02:40 PM   #12
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
The below clip shows the Tomiki Aikido randori (toshu randori). Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration. I would love to hear from those who accept this reality and share your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGjDjsCWGY
You know, I really loved my Tomiki Ryu experience. It was minimal, but highly informative. That it can begin to approach full speed in the higher levels of randori reminded me just how quickly I must get my 170lbs. body into the highly coordinated motion aiki demands.
I remember doing randori with Omonishi sensei and Peter Rehse in Himeji and thinking to myself, "I suck...wait a minute,I suck is an understatement." I was like a kid trying to move a bear. I'm not completely ignorant of aiki (just almost nearly so ), but my timing wasn't even close to hitting the mark. I either fell beautifully ...or felt the tanto touch where blood should've been leaking from. All in all a fun time, really!
As I understand it, the resistance is in the realm of intent. Aite wants to stab you with a floppy knife; tori wants to practice waza. I was still learning how to move with the movements of my partners. The names of things were a little different, the forms were a little different, but the heart of it seemed very much the same as what I learned at Kannagara Dojo. I've got nothing but good things to say about the Himeji Shodokan dojo...and through the representation of the folks there, the Shodokan system in general.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 08-11-2008 at 02:46 PM.

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Old 08-11-2008, 02:57 PM   #13
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Full Resistance

In this clip, there are some good examples of non-cooperative, ballistic training. It is about as good as it gets and still keeping it safe...hence all the gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QkJGxPytQI

Anything short of this and you really have too many contraints and rules for safety. It doesn't take guys too long to figure out how to take short cuts and exploit technicalities and the rules.

It is all good as long as we keep in mind the shortcomings that the constraints we impose create.

It is good to get exposure to as many different scenarios and situaitons as possible and figure out how to gain skill.

It is why I am now doing Judo as well as BJJ and Aikido. Each offers their own set of limitations and constraints, but because of them, you can develop some very good technics and skills in particular areas.

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Old 08-11-2008, 03:38 PM   #14
Sy Labthavikul
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Re: Full Resistance

I've seen a few videos of Blauer's SPEAR system at CrossFit.com and found them fairly interesting. He's not trying to teach some self defense style: his entire program is based upon the "flinch" response, what the human body naturally does when it feels itself threatened.

His work basically involved studying where most knife or gunshot wounds were located, and there was a statistically significant number of these wounds located on the hands and arms. He also studied photos of people who were surprised: most people's reactions are to "flinch" : bring up the hands and arms to protect the head and torso. His SPEAR methodology is basically a first response defensive posture where you use the flinch to project out your hands and forearms into a triangle to both block and attack any incoming threat.

Here's a video on youtube, originally from CrossFit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk_Ai8qT2s4

Another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ID6r...eature=related

He calls it a bridge to the more complex gross motor skills (i.e. techniques) of your martial arts style of choice; its for self defense when surprised, not for sparring or any other "competition."

Here Blauer discusses the bridge concept:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--74C...eature=related

Guess what that looks like? A lot of the preemptive atemi that many adept aikidoka already use. Combine this with moving off the line of attack? Well, I guess thats what I'm going to be spending the rest of my life to try to train into my natural movements.

Also, just for fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL3WUMNLjAA&NR=1

That last one was added to CrossFit on April 4. :-)

Last edited by Sy Labthavikul : 08-11-2008 at 03:49 PM.


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Old 08-11-2008, 03:57 PM   #15
Keith Larman
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
In this clip, there are some good examples of non-cooperative, ballistic training. It is about as good as it gets and still keeping it safe...hence all the gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QkJGxPytQI
Actually the Spear system stuff by Blauer is of great interest to me. A LEO friend of mine turned me on to them a while back. I really like the video you can find on youtube where he talks about the flinch response. In our style we have an exercise called shomenuchi ikkyo undo (don't know how many groups do this movement). My sensei have always been adamant that we train constantly to get the hands up immediately at the sign of anything incoming. I've been taught that it needs to be a basic reflex much like these guys teach it as a basic "flinch" response.

Anyway, all good stuff. Which reminds me that I need to revisit this with my students...

EDIT: Well, I'm slower than Sy here in posting, but very nicely he posted all the links to the various vids I was talking about... So now I won't bother looking them up...

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Old 08-11-2008, 04:18 PM   #16
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
While these clips are supposed to be of aikido, they appear to be of people doing judo very badly. It certainly doesn't look like it would be effective in a streetfight. In its own way, the Shodokan stuff in these clips is as "unreal" as the more classical aikido styles are accused of being - only its a lot uglier.
All formalized interactions are unreal to a certain extent. One of the goals of Shodokan is taking kata and making it work more organically by letting people practice waza and kaeshiwaza more freely. It's much more difficult (I think) to make a specific technique work than to let principle form the technique "spontaneously." And I think that has a lot to do with why it aint so pretty.

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Old 08-11-2008, 04:40 PM   #17
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
All formalized interactions are unreal to a certain extent. One of the goals of Shodokan is taking kata and making it work more organically by letting people practice waza and kaeshiwaza more freely. It's much more difficult (I think) to make a specific technique work than to let principle form the technique "spontaneously." And I think that has a lot to do with why it aint so pretty.
I agree with you totally. Unfortunately most Aikidoka, especially many in the Aikikai organization, think demonstrations are realistic self defense scenarios. They think static movements, flowing movements with grace, is the way Aikido replicates upon every scenario. Not at all the case in a real altercation, not even the case when you are angry with your 4th degree sensei who you try to test.

I tested my sensei once. He had to grab me to restrain the array of punches and kicks that were stinging him. I landed several low kicks that he was not able to stop and punched him pretty hard a couple of times to the face. Once he was in close, then he was able to execute an Aikido technique. My weakness was ground fighting and close proximity at the time. He applied what I think was probably a half Koshinage technique, then applied a choke to restrain me. He choked me pretty hard to make me stop. Really nothing like the thousands of Aikido demonstrations in the videos. I asked, what happen to the the crisp, pretty Aikido techniques. He stated there is Aikido for showing the technique fully and there is Aikido for self defense which sometimes needs to slightly adapt to the situation. I think realism is severely overlooked to often.

Last edited by salim : 08-11-2008 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:14 PM   #18
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
My sensei have always been adamant that we train constantly to get the hands up immediately at the sign of anything incoming.
so you can get ikkyoed "old school"

On a serious note. The Blauer clips show a very interesting work and a good balance between realism and safety.

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Old 08-11-2008, 05:26 PM   #19
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Re: Full Resistance

Kotegaeshi with full resistance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA0XA...eature=related
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Old 08-11-2008, 05:44 PM   #20
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
so you can get ikkyoed "old school"
Or you can *not* put your arms up. That way when you're lying on the ground bleeding out of your ears from a hard punch to the head you can confidently say you didn't allow them to put on that old-school ikkyo...

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Old 08-11-2008, 06:16 PM   #21
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Possible reflexes

Quote:
Sy Labthavikul wrote: View Post
I've seen a few videos of Blauer's SPEAR system at CrossFit.com and found them fairly interesting. He's not trying to teach some self defense style: his entire program is based upon the "flinch" response, what the human body naturally does when it feels itself threatened.
Very interesting, and indeed many parallells to aikido.
There are many martial arts that teach ways of polishing one's reflexes, so that they become efficient first responses when attacked.

If you don't evade too much from instinctual "flinches", you can alter them slightly, so that they become very effective although still as quick - or even quicker after persistent training of them.

I tell my students to start with responses that are likely as quick reflexes, and could be done also when you're surprised. There are some such movements - not that many, but more than the flinch showed in the Spear videos.
What is important is also to practice the taisabaki evasive turn of the body in connection to the arm movements. It can also become a reflex, and it improves the whole thing tremendously.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 08-11-2008, 07:52 PM   #22
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Re: Full Resistance

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
To often modern Aikido is not really tested against full resistance. The Shodokan school of Aikido and a few would be Aikidoka attempt to test there Aikido techniques against full resistance. They are usually ridiculed for their attempts and not appreciated for their efforts to prove or disprove a technique. The realities of a fully resisting uke makes the Aikido techniques sometimes unrecognizable, sometimes they simply are too difficult to apply. Maybe some techniques simply just don't work. Some in the Aikido world seem to have a difficult time accepting this reality. The below clip shows the Tomiki Aikido randori (toshu randori). Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration. I would love to hear from those who accept this reality and share your thoughts.
Interesting topic.

Personally I don't think there are many videos online that do justice to good Shodokan randori or shiai for that matter so I've resorted to just showing ppl who appear on my dojo step with questions.

These are the clips I tend to refer to, since they are the closest I have found that may relate to the Aikido concept of ending the conflict in an instant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCPE9YR5jA and - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo. These were taken during actual tanto shiai matches.

My own belief is that anyone who is stuck on getting better at shiai alone will not fully appreciate what Tomiki was trying to reveal to ppl. Just like ppl stuck only on cooperative methods of practice. The reason is because certain revelations are only gained by experiencing the personal truth of an actual conflict.

From my own personal experience, the system works very well for self defence purposes. This has been repeatedly proven to me. What is seen in most shiai clips are the result of folks who are still fixated on "getting technique to work". The system really comes into its own when your technique works before your partner has even struck (sen). This however requires focused study, even if one is in Shodokan and tests technique regularly. Testing is great but too many end up "fighting" and struggling instead of just doing Aikido. This is why there are guidelines on how to achieve ability without getting into the "fight" mindset. Imho if one is reacting in shiai or in self defence then one is not applying Aikido. The result is the struggling you often see in videos and training.

Once I did a demo which included some resistance randori as seen in tanto shiai. Half of the crowd were shocked at seeing someone who was willing to not get off every technique and not look like a "master" all the time (though some did come off like textbook co-op waza). The other half (mostly Judoka) were happy to actually see Aikido function while knowing that serious resistance was present. As folks who also engage in competitive practice they had a very good idea of how difficult it was to get a "clean" technique when ones partner was fighting back. They also know that it is possible given the right mindset and timing among other things.

Best.
LC

Last edited by L. Camejo : 08-11-2008 at 07:59 PM.

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Old 08-11-2008, 08:37 PM   #23
Ketsan
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Re: Full Resistance

[quote=Salim Shaw;213341]To often modern Aikido is not really tested against full resistance. The Shodokan school of Aikido and a few would be Aikidoka attempt to test there Aikido techniques against full resistance. They are usually ridiculed for their attempts and not appreciated for their efforts to prove or disprove a technique. The realities of a fully resisting uke makes the Aikido techniques sometimes unrecognizable, sometimes they simply are too difficult to apply. Maybe some techniques simply just don't work. Some in the Aikido world seem to have a difficult time accepting this reality. The below clip shows the Tomiki Aikido randori (toshu randori). Great to see some real resistance vs demonstration. I would love to hear from those who accept this reality and share your thoughts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mGjDjsCWGY[/QUOTE ]

I'd be interested to see their basics.
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Old 08-12-2008, 02:19 AM   #24
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Kokyuho

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
These are the clips I tend to refer to, since they are the closest I have found that may relate to the Aikido concept of ending the conflict in an instant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXCPE9YR5jA and - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvfyvQIJiGo. These were taken during actual tanto shiai matches.
Interesting. That comes closer to what I would prefer as practice against resistance. The technique they do, I call kokyuho. A very effective and practical technique. For some reason, there seems to be many dojos where it is hardly regarded as a technique at all, but merely a warm-up thingy.

Iriminage and kokyuho are quite closely related, and can be done swiftly against a resisting opponent - almost regardless of the attack form. Some other aikido techniques are less practical, even unrealistic, against several attack forms.

On my website, I made commented tables of what I regard as practical or impractical (and easy or difficult) applications of the aikido techniques against all the common attack forms:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics.htm
Of course, that's just how I see it

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Old 08-12-2008, 03:27 AM   #25
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Re: Kokyuho

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Interesting. That comes closer to what I would prefer as practice against resistance. The technique they do, I call kokyuho. A very effective and practical technique. For some reason, there seems to be many dojos where it is hardly regarded as a technique at all, but merely a warm-up thingy.
We call it Ura Mukae Daoshi. Definitely not merely a warm-up for us, but a very contundent technique with not-so-safe obvious variations.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Iriminage and kokyuho are quite closely related, and can be done swiftly against a resisting opponent - almost regardless of the attack form. Some other aikido techniques are less practical, even unrealistic, against several attack forms.
Actually it's my understanding that Yoshinkan guys call it Shokumen Irimi Nage, so this relationship is even more obvious for them. In Yoseikan, Irimi Nage is called Mukae Daoshi, so the relationship also shows up there.

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
On my website, I made commented tables of what I regard as practical or impractical (and easy or difficult) applications of the aikido techniques against all the common attack forms:
http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/aikidobasics.htm
Of course, that's just how I see it
As informative as always. Great site.
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