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Old 08-07-2008, 02:43 PM   #76
barry.clemons
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Let me ask your questions back to you, framed in a different way.

Ueshiba Morihei studied Daito ryu under Takeda Sokaku. Ueshiba's main and primary martial art was Daito ryu. So, to ask your questions,

What made it OK for Ueshiba to break away from O sensei Takeda, thus ceasing transmission?

If Takeda is the founder, why is it OK for Ueshiba to reduce the curriculum?

If Takeda is the founder, why is it OK for Ueshiba to add spiritual Ki to the curriculum?

If Takeda is the founder, why was it OK for one of his chosen successors (that would be Ueshiba) to not to honor Takeda but instead break off on his (Ueshiba's) own?
Checkmate.

Was Takeda the founder? I thought he was merely the next successor.
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Old 08-07-2008, 02:56 PM   #77
barry.clemons
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
It is interesting to note that what Saito learned *after* the war was nearly the same as what was being taught *before* the war in 1938. So, the position of having different techniques prewar and postwar doesn't really hold up too well. And that's a reason for studying what Ueshiba was doing prewar, during the war, and postwar. It's also a reason to study what his son, Kisshomaru, was doing post war.

Just a speculation ... but what would you do if you found out that

1) your aikido wasn't Ueshiba Morihei's aikido at all but instead was a variation built upon Kisshomaru's vision and

2) that the "whole" art of Ueshiba had not been passed down to you, but rather a gutted version built for worldwide dissemination.

As I said, it's merely speculation and wonderings, so ignore if you choose.
Oh no sir, I won't ignore! In fact, this question is very introspective and took me a few to think about. To answer your question, I would probably want to know what exactly was gutted and for what reason. But does that mean that Aikikai is Kisshomaru's vision? Did he merely organize training to make it more efficient, or did butcher the vision that was Morihei's? Is Shioda's the vision of Morihei, or his own? And what about Tomiki? I think that's the difference I see between Takeda and Ueshiba; Takeda was content with his art being Daito Ryu. Ueshiba, more of a spiritual transformation and less of a falling out between student and teacher, created his art being Aikido.
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:42 PM   #78
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
Ueshiba, more of a spiritual transformation and less of a falling out between student and teacher, created his art being Aikido.
Or it was simply the old su-ha-ri.

Anyway, one thing I've noticed is the great similarities in how waza is done (and the lack of "spirituality") in the styles developed by pre-war students* regardeless affiliation or separation from Aikikai, compared with the different approaches both technical and spiritual you can see in post-war Hombu lines.

*This considering the strong pre-war relationship of O Sensei with Omoto Kyo starting in 1920.

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Old 08-08-2008, 07:19 AM   #79
MM
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
Checkmate.

Was Takeda the founder? I thought he was merely the next successor.
I don't know.

But, let's take a look at both. If he was the founder, the questions are still valid. If he was merely the next successor, well, the questions are still valid. Ueshiba still broke away from him at one point.

But, let me go back to your original post:

Quote:
Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
I have two questions.

Why is there such a focus on what O'sensei studied pre-war, instead of what he desired to transmit post-war?

My second question then, is, what was O'sensei's wish in terms of transmission?
My questions weren't designed to elicit answers from you, but rather to get you thinking about your original two questions. Why such a focus and What was Ueshiba's wish?

To start answering those questions, you should have information to form an intelligent base. Getting that information isn't always as easy as listening to your teacher. For example, there are time periods when no one knew that Ueshiba's main study was Daito ryu. Stan Pranin brought that to light. So, what other information has yet to be brought to light? There is quite a lot of information that hasn't been translated or shared. And some of the translated material has a spin to it. Sometimes not much, but sometimes a bit more.
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Old 08-08-2008, 07:33 AM   #80
MM
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
Oh no sir, I won't ignore! In fact, this question is very introspective and took me a few to think about. To answer your question, I would probably want to know what exactly was gutted and for what reason. But does that mean that Aikikai is Kisshomaru's vision? Did he merely organize training to make it more efficient, or did butcher the vision that was Morihei's? Is Shioda's the vision of Morihei, or his own? And what about Tomiki? I think that's the difference I see between Takeda and Ueshiba; Takeda was content with his art being Daito Ryu. Ueshiba, more of a spiritual transformation and less of a falling out between student and teacher, created his art being Aikido.
First, don't take my posts as meaning I think Kisshomaru butchered aikido. I have a lot of respect for what Kisshomaru did. I don't agree with everything he did, but I certainly have a lot of respect for him and what he did.

Do I think the current version of U.S. Aikikai aikido is Kisshomaru's vision? Yeah, I think it is. Did he change a lot of his father's art? I don't know. Goldsbury sensei has some excellent articles here on AikiWeb and he will probably address that question in an upcoming one. In reference to what we're talking about here, read the published ones and look for the part about omote and ura and the spread of aikido worldwide.

As for the students ... research Daito ryu. You'll find that each of Takeda's students are doing their own thing and they don't really look alike. So, if we follow that trend, why should Ueshiba's students not look different?

If Takeda's students can do such different things and still do Daito ryu, why can't Ueshiba's students do different things and still do Aikido?
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Old 08-08-2008, 10:48 AM   #81
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Shioda to eliminate Ki from the curriculum?
What in the world makes you think the base of this question is true?

Read Shioda's books...he does in fact talk about ki...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 08-20-2008, 08:57 PM   #82
salim
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
What in the world makes you think the base of this question is true?

Read Shioda's books...he does in fact talk about ki...

Best,
Ron
I suggest reading the below article. "Is O-Sensei Really the Father of Modern Aikido."

http://www.aikido-iwama.ru/text1_en.html
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:01 PM   #83
Charles Hill
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

I highly recommend the book, The Japanese Art of War by Thomas Cleary. It will help in learning/discovering the Japanese approach to the "truth." The reason I suggest this is that all the facts and quotes attributed to the various people above seem to be divorced from the context in which the individual spoke. I firmly believe that the original impetus for each comment lies in political or pedagogical intentions, not in discovering historical facts. I believe this to be true even with Mr. Pranin's ideas (whom I greatly respect).

Charles
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:39 AM   #84
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I suggest reading the below article. "Is O-Sensei Really the Father of Modern Aikido."

http://www.aikido-iwama.ru/text1_en.html
I've read the article, as I'm sure Ron has previously, and I still don't see anything in there about Shioda eliminating ki from the curriculum. To be sure, Yoshinkan aikido is quite different from Ki Society aikido, but the idea that Shioda eliminated ki from his curriculum doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination of his books, lectures, and instructional tapes. In fact, going from their published writings, Shioda mentions ki even more than Morihiro Saito.

And I say this as a former Iwama practitioner who's never stepped a foot into a Yoshinkan dojo.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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Old 08-22-2008, 09:47 AM   #85
salim
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
I've read the article, as I'm sure Ron has previously, and I still don't see anything in there about Shioda eliminating ki from the curriculum. To be sure, Yoshinkan aikido is quite different from Ki Society aikido, but the idea that Shioda eliminated ki from his curriculum doesn't stand up to even a cursory examination of his books, lectures, and instructional tapes. In fact, going from their published writings, Shioda mentions ki even more than Morihiro Saito.

And I say this as a former Iwama practitioner who's never stepped a foot into a Yoshinkan dojo.
Oops, sorry I think I may have submitted the link a little out of contrast. I was trying to make a point more of who created Modern Aikido and it's methodology. Again forget the post.
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