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Old 05-20-2002, 08:21 AM   #1
SeiserL
 
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Question Aikido Under Attack (?)

I am writting a series of article on Aikido under various attacks. I have the draft done, but wanted to open the idea up for input and discussion. What points fo you feel are important to make to the general martial arts community (non-Aikido) against (1) the five angles of a knife attack, (2) a boxer's jab, cross, and hook, various kicks and tackles, (3) again other traditional martial arts weapons such as sword, staff, cane, nunchuck, sai, etc., and (4) in firearm disarms?

Thanks in advance for your honest input and opinions.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-20-2002, 11:46 AM   #2
shihonage
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An experienced and non-delusional Aikido
practitioner will employ the teachings of people like Peyton Quinn and Richard Dimitri, when dealing with any attacks in general.
Preemptively or not.

Sometimes it may remotely resemble something he learned in the dojo, sometimes it will not, all of the time it will be much simpler, but at the same time more encompassing, however the dojo training will aid whatever he does, at all times.

Aikido practice will aid the tactile feedback sense needed to employ real-life knife-defense as described by Peyton Quinn. Tenchi-nage sounds close to what he describes, but it is not.

It is just a part of the overall defense scheme, according to Peyton QUinn, Richard Dimitri, Marc MacYoung, and other reality self-defense specialists.

Most of the time you won't know that you had a knife pulled on you at all. IN real life, an experienced knife attacker will not want a contest. He will not display the knife or square off. He will see this as an execution, close in, and stab you multiple times before you can think "munetski kotegaeshi".

Quinn says, that once you become proficient at defending against those, an unexperienced "icepick grip attacker" and the like will be a "fucking pleasure" to deal with.

Against gun attacks, sometimes it is useful to just grab the barrel and point it somewhere, preferably not into an innocent bystander, according to Richard Dimitri of Senshido.

At all times, a static weapon disarm can not be just executed, because you will be cut or shot. You need to interrupt the attacker's flow of thought, if just for a millisecond, by asking him a question, or just talking, and execute technique without hesitation.

I believe this is called "pattern interruption" phenomena.

I did severe injustice to Peyton Quinn and Richard Dimitri's teachings by horribly skewing them above, and I apologize in advance.

You can not fit their stuff in a couple of paragraphs, you need to buy their tapes and practice it, if just a little.

(/Rambling)
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Old 05-20-2002, 02:52 PM   #3
Bronson
 
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Quote:
you need to buy their tapes
Where?

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:24 PM   #4
SeiserL
 
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Alex,

Thanks for your comments. IMHO, you did Quinn and Animal very well. I do have their tapes and books. Trained in Knives with the late Ted Lucaylucay (Kali/JKD)and recently with Hock.

Your points are well taken and appreciated.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-20-2002, 05:41 PM   #5
shihonage
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronson


Where?

Bronson
www.rmcat.com and www.senshido.com .
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Old 05-22-2002, 09:48 PM   #6
jk
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Hi Lynn,

Where are these articles going to be published? Sounds interesting...

Regards,
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Old 05-23-2002, 11:08 PM   #7
SeiserL
 
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Where? Actually they were requested by the editor of Black Belt Magazine. He requested them after shooting the photographs of Sensei Phong for the July issue.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai AIkido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-29-2002, 12:33 PM   #8
Ray Kissane
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Lynn

I would suggest to you and everyone else a police training tape called "Surviving Edged Weapons" it was done by the Minneapolis-St. Paul Police departments. This was a real eye opener. One of the best parts was a training exerecise that the police officers did where they had to investigate some activity in a room. This little old guy( I have forgotten his name) was able to cover an amazing amount of distance and cut the officer before they could get their guns up for firing.

With knifes I think a couple of things have to be stressed. One is that most of us do not train for a knife figther but for someone who happens to pick up a knife. The attacks are bigger lopping types of attacks not the small tight attacks that a trained knife figther would do.

The other thing is that people with knifes will use both hands not just the hand with the knife. They can use the other hand to block, grab, pull and strike in order to set up for a strike with the knife. This can create situations that are very hard to deal with. For this reason I think knifes are one of the most deadly weapons in use today, more so than guns.

With guns I stress Mi-ai. If you can not touch the weapon do not try to disarm the attacker. I do train people on how to close the distance from say ten feet to within arm reach but for most people this is not something they need. I have seen too many news clips where somebody decieded to try and disarm someone when they were well past mi-ai. They did not know how to move so the attacker was able to react and shoot the indivual, sometimes fatally. Usually they were just a bystander trying to prevent a robbery.

I think everyone should have some training on firearm disarming so that they know when to even attempt it and when not to. Most situations will never require it but people should know some basics to make an informed decision.

Ray Kissane

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Old 05-29-2002, 03:37 PM   #9
SeiserL
 
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Ray,

Thanks for your thoughts. I couldn't agree more. Yes, I have seen the tape on knife fighting. I have quite the collection myself. I believe it was Dan Inosanto that cleared the 20' distance and cut before the police could get the weapon out. Your points are well taken and appreciated.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 05-31-2002, 08:14 AM   #10
Ali B
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Ki Symbol

Hi guys interesting dicussion. Many years ago I was involved in knife attack. I beleive my aikido saved my life, and that of my friend.

You´re right though the attacker never showed the knife and it was a combination of instinct for danger and reflex from practice which helped to lessen the severity.

It was an excellent point about speaking to the attacker. It moves their mind from what they are doing and gives you time to react.

Like a mental atemi, of sorts. I was injured in the attack but less than I could have been, if I had not had any training.

I would also like to say, that I hope none of you have to face such a situation but if you do get those little alarm bells ringing, Pay attention.

I hope your article goes well.

Love and light.
Ali
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Old 05-31-2002, 08:25 AM   #11
paw
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Since knife/firearm disarms have been mentioned, why not weapon retention skills? (ie you've disarmed the "bad guy", now the "bad guy" attempts to disarm you and regain controll of their weapon)

Curious,

Paul
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Old 05-31-2002, 10:15 AM   #12
Ray Kissane
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Weapons Retention

Paul

This is an area of training that I think alot of martial artist have not done much training in. I do not consider myself anywhere near being an expert on this.

With knifes, when I take one away at the end uke is locked up in a pin so it would be hard for them to try and retake the weapon. What we worry about is that if the knife is dropped during the technique that someone else does not pick it up and try and attack us or that the attacker is not thrown on top of the knife allowing them to regain the weapon.

Firearms are a differnt story. I have seen news video where people have grabbed the gun out of someone's hand and then the attacker fights like the dickens to get the weapon back. I would think that distance and strikes may be one way to keep the attacker back from the weapon. Also to keep the weapon on the farside of your body so the attacker would have to go around your body to get to the weapon. When we take the firearm we immediately create distance between ourselves and the attacker.

We train that once the firearm has been taken from the attacker to bring the gun up to firing position pointed at the attacker. You could hope that the site of the gun now being pointed at the attacker would subdue them but this may not work. The only problem with this is that if you are not willing to shoot someone this does not do any good. The attacker has to pose a threat to your life before you would be allowed to shoot them and this could be hard to prove. Also we do not know the status of the gun; for all we know it may not be loaded or may have a plugged barrel. These are some of the best reasons for stressing distance and then removing ones self from the area.

Ray Kissane
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Old 05-31-2002, 11:50 AM   #13
SeiserL
 
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Excellent suggestions. Deepest compliments and appreciation. I have submitted the draft of the article ideas to the editor already, but will keep your comments to incorporate and will give credit where credit is due. I realize that training in this stuff is somewhat limited in most Aikido schools that I have seen and few know much about it. Just wanted to share. Thanks again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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