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Old 08-02-2008, 09:39 AM   #51
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Honestly, thank you for all of your hard work and your willingness to share. I don't know that we will always draw the same conclusions, but that hardly matters. (Getting closer to "the truth" is what matters in my mind, not who's right or wrong today or tomorrow.) The fact that you are publicly sharing pertinent information in a highly transparent fashion and from a hard earned position that demands to be taken seriously is what matters most IMO. That you do so in a down to earth, accessible and un-pretentious manner is icing on the cake!

I don't know how many folks will read, comprehend and appreciate what you are sharing, but at least it is out there and that in itself is ground breaking.

As my 5th graders would say, "You rock Mr. Goldsbury!"
Ditto, but don't forget a big Thanks for putting up with some of us in-the-dark stumblers who don't know enough to ask the right questions yet.

Mark
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Old 08-02-2008, 08:24 PM   #52
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
And where is Column 9 today August the 2nd (August the 3rd if one resides in Japan) . . . hmmmm . . . . Jun . . . pleeeeease?
Good Morning Allen,

At the risk of some thread drift, I think I should explain.

Actually, Jun has a time line. He wants the columns by the 1st of the month and puts them up for editing around the 5th. They are put up for the general readership by around the 12th. However, Jun is also busy and so sometimes things run late.

Since I am away from Japan from tomorrow till Aug 22, I sent him Column 9 early and Jun obligingly sent the formatted column to me a few days ago. (However, I sent him the latest request for correction just a few minutes ago.)

I gather that another problem is formatting. Jun needs a PC to keep the same formatting as I use when I write the columns (in the Japanese version of MS Word). Since my own columns are much longer than those of Ross, Lynn and 'The Mirror', I suspect that formatting is quite a headache.

Back to the thread. The translated pages of Takemusu Aiki are the continuation of what I quoted in Column 7.

Best wishes,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 08-02-2008, 08:33 PM   #53
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Ditto, but don't forget a big Thanks for putting up with some of us in-the-dark stumblers who don't know enough to ask the right questions yet.

Mark
Mark,

Clear your PM box .

PAG

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Old 08-02-2008, 11:27 PM   #54
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Good Morning to you Peter,

I hope you will soon be on vacation and enjoying yourself. Thank you for the explanation about the column. I'll try to be patient.

Also, thanks for the clue as to where to start reading in Takemusu Aiki. I'll consider it a sneak preview. I'm enjoying Thomas Nadolski's thesis BTW.

All the best,

Allen
(Your fellow "four legged" foreign friend . . . at least according to some mediums!)

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 08-03-2008, 06:09 AM   #55
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Mark,

Clear your PM box .

PAG
I did. Thanks! Didn't realize it was full.

Mark
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Old 08-03-2008, 05:19 PM   #56
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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First one is from Saito's Traditional Aikido (it's in vol.5 iirc)
Checked. It's in Vol IV (pg.12). Sorry.

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Old 08-04-2008, 10:41 AM   #57
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Thank you for the explanation about the column. I'll try to be patient.

Allen
You know, Allen, sometimes Jun gets really, really busy and can't get the columns published until near the end of the month.

And if I remember right, I think there was a time when he skipped a whole month.

Not that I'm trying to drive you crazy with impatience or anything.

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Old 08-04-2008, 03:51 PM   #58
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Mark,

You're starting to sound more and more like a friend all the time . . .@ hole!



Allen
(I'm left with no other choice but to continue re-building my stinking deck and it's HOT today!)

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 08-06-2008, 08:43 AM   #59
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Perhaps one the best who uses principles from the earlier practitioners of Aikido.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:22 AM   #60
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Perhaps one the best who uses principles from the earlier practitioners of Aikido.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Y3WZuUtVo
If you're going with Yoshinkan, don't forget:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCDN7...eature=related

Still, looks a little like Daito ryu, no?
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:39 AM   #61
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Dude!,

Your like a Ninja, two places at one time!

Who's Daito Ryu and when?

Who's Aikido and when?

Just being a jerk, Mark. I like to be myself!

Allen

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Old 08-06-2008, 07:44 PM   #62
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

I have two questions.

Why is there such a focus on what O'sensei studied pre-war, instead of what he desired to transmit post-war?

I'll give an example (meant to be used purely as context).

In the Bible, there is very little mentioned about the life of Jesus Christ as a child. There is very much written about his transmissions to his disciples up to and through the Crucifiction. That is acceptable with most Christians today; what matters is what was decided to be transmitted, not the man himself.

While I don't mean to compare O'sensei to a religious figure, I believe the analogy is sound.

Bruce Lee studied various martial arts, to include Boxing and Wing Chun. What was created was Jeet Kun Do. Practicioners of this art study Jeet Kun Do to be more proficient at Jeet Kun Do; I don't see Jeet Kun Do practitioners compartmetnalize their training, forcing them to retrace Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun and Boxing to be better at Jeet Kun Do.

So I come back full circle to O'sensei. It sounds almost as if modern Aikido requires some sort of validation in its historical context in order to define what it is today, instead of accepting the transmisison that was left by the founder.

The next reply I will probably witness will be the fact that O'sensei performed his transmission, yet it was interpreted in at least 5 different ways; hence the major styles we have today.

My second question then, is, what was O'sensei's wish in terms of transmission? He did leave behind writings. Are we studying today what he intended to be studied? There is a difference between different views of the same picture (the sum is greater than the parts), and a student disagreeing with dojo politics, thus breaking away from convention and bastardizing the original concept.
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Old 08-06-2008, 08:02 PM   #63
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

Better yet, I have another question.

Instead of asking why we don't study more pre-war technique, the question I propose is this: What made it OK for students to break away from O'sensei, thus ceasing transmission?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Tomiki to include competition into the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Shioda to eliminate Ki from the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why was it OK for his son not to honor Tohei as head instructor, and by proxy his curriculum?

I may be reducing things to their basics, but my position is that what O'sensei transmitted is what we should study; as is. I don't see a pre-war or post-war. I only see what was being taught up until the day he died.
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Old 08-06-2008, 09:29 PM   #64
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
Better yet, I have another question.

Instead of asking why we don't study more pre-war technique, the question I propose is this: What made it OK for students to break away from O'sensei, thus ceasing transmission?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Tomiki to include competition into the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Shioda to eliminate Ki from the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why was it OK for his son not to honor Tohei as head instructor, and by proxy his curriculum?

I may be reducing things to their basics, but my position is that what O'sensei transmitted is what we should study; as is. I don't see a pre-war or post-war. I only see what was being taught up until the day he died.
You know, this is a fascinating set of questions, and I really hope someone like Professor Peter Goldsbury will write something about this in his column, or directly in this thread. In fact, anyone who has insight into this (Robert John?) could lend some clarity here: I think the ideas about teaching, having a "school", and tradition are so radically different at their core between Japanese (Chinese, East Asian in general?) and Western cultures that it does not really make sense to phrase the questions the way you did. The answer would be trivial and meaningless in terms of explanation :-)

My take on it is that there is no concept of an "absolute" in East Asian culture, so there is no premise of a core set of skills that must be passed on to someone. Very much related, there is no concept of "sharing" without "social competition", which leads to the need by each person to "steal" what s/he can from the circumstances that present themselves. If one takes the above to one possible logical conclusion; namely, that people teach, demonstrate, or show something to others in order to live, rather than in order to build something universally approachable, then the existance of omote and ura, the social niceties and gokui, and emphasis on personal "shugyo" rather than group "sharing" of knowledge, become clear (in this interpretation of reality). It also makes sense of the extreme difficulty and wariness in building trust, and reticence, that one sees in East Asian societies, and how groups of like-minded individuals tend to be small rather than encompassing.

Against this background, with such incentives and constraints, splitting off, existence of differences, patchy knowledge and skills, searching for and application of niche knowledge, is natural and economically sound.

For someone (and there are more and more of such people) to break out of this mould is astounding!!!

Regards, Gernot
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:13 PM   #65
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
You know, this is a fascinating set of questions, and I really hope someone like Professor Peter Goldsbury will write something about this in his column, or directly in this thread. In fact, anyone who has insight into this (Robert John?) could lend some clarity here: I think the ideas about teaching, having a "school", and tradition are so radically different at their core between Japanese (Chinese, East Asian in general?) and Western cultures that it does not really make sense to phrase the questions the way you did. The answer would be trivial and meaningless in terms of explanation :-)

My take on it is that there is no concept of an "absolute" in East Asian culture, so there is no premise of a core set of skills that must be passed on to someone. Very much related, there is no concept of "sharing" without "social competition", which leads to the need by each person to "steal" what s/he can from the circumstances that present themselves. If one takes the above to one possible logical conclusion; namely, that people teach, demonstrate, or show something to others in order to live, rather than in order to build something universally approachable, then the existance of omote and ura, the social niceties and gokui, and emphasis on personal "shugyo" rather than group "sharing" of knowledge, become clear (in this interpretation of reality). It also makes sense of the extreme difficulty and wariness in building trust, and reticence, that one sees in East Asian societies, and how groups of like-minded individuals tend to be small rather than encompassing.

Against this background, with such incentives and constraints, splitting off, existence of differences, patchy knowledge and skills, searching for and application of niche knowledge, is natural and economically sound.

For someone (and there are more and more of such people) to break out of this mould is astounding!!!

Regards, Gernot
Gernot,

I appreciate your reply and insight.

My position was not meant to compare Eastern with Western mentality. I understand the concept of 'stealing' technique, as well as sharing/social competition. I am witnessing something different in this conversation.

The original question is why pre-war technique is not included in modern Aikido. My position is that the founder chose NOT to include those techniques, either because they needed to be eliminated or because he refined them; that is meant to read he taught what he wanted to transmit up until the day he died.

I meant to further elaborate that stream with identifiying the different flavors of Aikido as we know them today. My position on this subject is such; Shioda and Tomiki CHOSE to break away from O'sensei at a point in time when it was necessary for them to do so. They didn't just stick around and 'steal' techniques in order to increase their bag of tricks. When they left, they named their system Aikido and they honored the founder. My point is that there was a conscious decision to end transmission between student and teacher; so how then can that system be deemed complete? Thus begets the question of whether or not the teachings of an incompletely transmitted system is what the founder originally intended as Aikido, since he is indeed considered the founder.
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:52 PM   #66
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Tomiki to include competition into the curriculum?
Necessity. To secure a place to train (and presumably funds), Tomiki needed to follow Waseda's guidelines for sports (sic) clubs.

Evidently, Osensei never had a gripe with Tomiki, although Kisshomaru asked him to stop calling what he did aikido.

Quote:
If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Shioda to eliminate Ki from the curriculum?
KI being what it is, it would be impossible to eliminate it. More precisely, he may have the way it is approached/eliminated TALK about it.

Quote:
If O'sensei is the founder, why was it OK for his son not to honor Tohei as head instructor, and by proxy his curriculum?
It's good to be the king.

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I may be reducing things to their basics, but my position is that what O'sensei transmitted is what we should study; as is.
Seems kind of overbearing to me. "Should"?! Where does that come from? I'd rather let folks study what they want.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:36 PM   #67
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
I may be reducing things to their basics, but my position is that what O'sensei transmitted is what we should study; as is. I don't see a pre-war or post-war. I only see what was being taught up until the day he died.
But really, this very idea is what drives interest in pre-war vs. post-war. Because there's a fairly clear record of what he was teaching pre-war, but not at all a clear record of what he was teaching post-war. In fact, post-war, he did not seem to be doing a lot of "teaching", instead just traveling around Japan, giving some demonstrations, and dispensing words of wisdom. The post-war aikido record is very much mixed up with the contributions of Tohei and Kisshomaru, and there's a good case to be made that what the vast majority of Aikikai dojos practice is not aikido as Ueshiba transmitted, but rather aikido as Kisshomaru/Tohei transmitted. Hence, the interest in pre-war aikido and Iwama.

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 08-07-2008, 05:26 AM   #68
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
The post-war aikido record is very much mixed up with the contributions of Tohei and Kisshomaru, and there's a good case to be made that what the vast majority of Aikikai dojos practice is not aikido as Ueshiba transmitted, but rather aikido as Kisshomaru/Tohei transmitted. Hence, the interest in pre-war aikido and Iwama.
That's right to the spot IMHO .
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:17 AM   #69
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

I read somewhere, I guess it was in an interview from Saito sensei, that when he started training the Founder used to say that what he was doing before the war was wrong, and they had to correct it.

I wonder what he actually meant by saying that.
What do you think?

Anyway, I think that he wanted to take his training and the art to something else, not because it was really wrong, but because he had a different goal.
But IMO that does not mean we should forget what he did before the war. I think we can only understand the Founder, his ideas and his art if we look at his whole life and, of course, if we practice!
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Old 08-07-2008, 06:41 AM   #70
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Roberto Orio wrote: View Post
I read somewhere, I guess it was in an interview from Saito sensei, that when he started training the Founder used to say that what he was doing before the war was wrong, and they had to correct it.

I wonder what he actually meant by saying that.
What do you think?
Maybe he was not talking about waza.

OTOH, things like O Sensei shouting at Hombu students: "What you people are doing is not aikido." as related by Kenji Shimizu in this interview, and some other similar stories, are food for thought.

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Old 08-07-2008, 06:51 AM   #71
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Roberto Orio wrote: View Post
I read somewhere, I guess it was in an interview from Saito sensei, that when he started training the Founder used to say that what he was doing before the war was wrong, and they had to correct it.

I wonder what he actually meant by saying that.
What do you think?
Not that I'm an expert in any sense, but I guess he was talking more about intention/philosophy/morals than about waza.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:23 AM   #72
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
Better yet, I have another question.

Instead of asking why we don't study more pre-war technique, the question I propose is this: What made it OK for students to break away from O'sensei, thus ceasing transmission?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Tomiki to include competition into the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why is it OK for Shioda to eliminate Ki from the curriculum?

If O'sensei is the founder, why was it OK for his son not to honor Tohei as head instructor, and by proxy his curriculum?

I may be reducing things to their basics, but my position is that what O'sensei transmitted is what we should study; as is. I don't see a pre-war or post-war. I only see what was being taught up until the day he died.
Let me ask your questions back to you, framed in a different way.

Ueshiba Morihei studied Daito ryu under Takeda Sokaku. Ueshiba's main and primary martial art was Daito ryu. So, to ask your questions,

What made it OK for Ueshiba to break away from O sensei Takeda, thus ceasing transmission?

If Takeda is the founder, why is it OK for Ueshiba to reduce the curriculum?

If Takeda is the founder, why is it OK for Ueshiba to add spiritual Ki to the curriculum?

If Takeda is the founder, why was it OK for one of his chosen successors (that would be Ueshiba) to not to honor Takeda but instead break off on his (Ueshiba's) own?
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:36 AM   #73
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
The original question is why pre-war technique is not included in modern Aikido. My position is that the founder chose NOT to include those techniques, either because they needed to be eliminated or because he refined them; that is meant to read he taught what he wanted to transmit up until the day he died.
It is interesting to note that what Saito learned *after* the war was nearly the same as what was being taught *before* the war in 1938. So, the position of having different techniques prewar and postwar doesn't really hold up too well. And that's a reason for studying what Ueshiba was doing prewar, during the war, and postwar. It's also a reason to study what his son, Kisshomaru, was doing post war.

Just a speculation ... but what would you do if you found out that

1) your aikido wasn't Ueshiba Morihei's aikido at all but instead was a variation built upon Kisshomaru's vision and

2) that the "whole" art of Ueshiba had not been passed down to you, but rather a gutted version built for worldwide dissemination.

As I said, it's merely speculation and wonderings, so ignore if you choose.

Quote:
Barry Clemons wrote: View Post
I meant to further elaborate that stream with identifiying the different flavors of Aikido as we know them today. My position on this subject is such; Shioda and Tomiki CHOSE to break away from O'sensei at a point in time when it was necessary for them to do so. They didn't just stick around and 'steal' techniques in order to increase their bag of tricks. When they left, they named their system Aikido and they honored the founder. My point is that there was a conscious decision to end transmission between student and teacher; so how then can that system be deemed complete? Thus begets the question of whether or not the teachings of an incompletely transmitted system is what the founder originally intended as Aikido, since he is indeed considered the founder.
According to your paragraph, "O'sensei" would definitely not be the founder. In fact, according to your paragraph above, you clearly put "O'sensei" into the exact same category that you have Shioda and Tomiki.

You see, Ueshiba learned Daito ryu from Takeda. And Ueshiba, did that exact same thing that you say of Shioda and Tomiki. Ueshiba broke away from O sensei (that would be Takeda), the founder of Daito ryu.

So, I ask your very same question of you ... "Thus begets the question of whether or not the teachings of an incompletely transmitted system is what the founder" (here I will rephrase the rest) Takeda originally intended as Daito ryu, since he is indeed considered the founder.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:50 AM   #74
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe he was not talking about waza.

OTOH, things like O Sensei shouting at Hombu students: "What you people are doing is not aikido." as related by Kenji Shimizu in this interview, and some other similar stories, are food for thought.
Very interesting interview with Kenji Shimizu. It's very evident based on the interview, O-Sensei did not teach much at the Aikikai Hombu Dojo, if any. More philosophical lectures were given by him than teaching martial application towards the latter days of his life. To me it's more conformation, along with other documented research, modern Aikido today (Tohei and Kisshomaru Aikido) is not Aikido from O-Sensei. It appears that only a few select individuals have preserved the martial application of O-Sensei. O-sensei's Aikdio needs a serious resurrection from Aikikai as an organization.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:50 AM   #75
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Re: Pre War Aikido, 1930 through Iwama period

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O-sensei's Aikdio needs a serious resurrection from Aikikai as an organization.
May I ask here who created the Aikikai and what for?
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