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Old 07-31-2008, 07:14 AM   #26
DonMagee
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

[quote=Dalen Johnson;212239]
Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I don't know about everyone else, but I am baffled to hear that people often think ground work is only, found only, and devoid in everything else in BJJ/MMA. Maybe it is a generational thing of those past the year 2000 to present who at this time grew up with the popularity of MMA. /QUOTE]

I believe I see your point.

There is a generation now that cries out, "ITs the only art that can take someone bigger than you" - and then trailing off and faintly heard...if at all...is the statement, "if they dont know it to." (which of course everyone and their brother is learning BJJ now, so that aspect and magic of gracie taking down someone bigger is no longer there.)

As well as rules of the game.
Every game has rules - I suppose the only one to really win would be krav maga - if you call killing your opponent winning. Traditional Jui Jitsu maybe with eye gouging, etc. may stand a chance - as well as a Thai boxers elbow to the cranium if there wasnt a rule against that as he was being taken down. (Maybe there isnt a rule about that...but Im sure there is.)

So all in all, BJJ is the new mystical Kungfu of this century.
Yes, it works, but so do the other arts mentioned, within their context.

The rules set forth, in order not to maim and kill people have shown that for a sport - one against one - BJJ (mixed...key word) with other arts, is a fine art indeed.

I know, Im one of those quacky guys who things that your mindset is the best way to stay out of a fight - so in the end it really depends on what your going for.

As far as Judo and BJJ, Judo was taking all the biting edges off of jui jitsu in order to safely practice - and BJJ refined Judo. (but you all know this already, and many of you know it first hand as you train in BJJ and/or Judo.)

Aikido was a big step for me, as I have always been inclined to strike and kick, never was into the wrestling bit - but I have come around somewhat and am interested in the potential combinations of such arts as BJJ and Judo with Aikido.

In fact one of our test requirements is Suwari Sumo..though we have not even really been properly trained in it - its more like a free for all unfortunately. So Im taking clues from watching youtube in how to do escapes, etc.

Peace

dAlen
I just want to touch on something here. By nature of training in krav maga, traditional jujutsu, etc doesn't mean you are instantly going to beat a sport fighter in a fight (not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).

Many of the deadly techniques and those described in your post are extremely hard to do in real situations. For example, eye gouging. If you can strike me in the face, then it is safe to say you can attempt an eye gouge, however, a well trained sport fighter is going to be hard to strike in the face. It reminds me of the many times I've had to demonstrate this to guys who were very sure that pinching me, trying to grab my groin, eye gouging, punching from under the mount, etc was going to defeat my grappling. Even with my subpar grappling, there lack of actual experience in physical confrontations was apparent and they were unable to do anything.

So yes, while you could use a downward elbow to the spine to stop a take down (see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI ) a proper takedown takes away the power of that shot ( see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia). And while a well placed knee to the face will knock out a guy as he takes a shot, a well place knee is not that easy if you haven't spared using that well place knee for a long time and drilled it into oblivion. Even in the example fight listed above, Royce was not really known for being good at takedowns, not compared to the good sport fighters of today.

My point is that sport fighters have very well drilled and well tested gameplans that hold up for the most part with the deadly added in. The deadly however is almost always not well trained, drilled, or tested. So when teh chips are down, most will probably be unable to uses it, or at the very least a sport fighter will be better at using it. (Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount, I sat up and poked my two fighters right on the bridge of his nose and asked if he wanted to keep his eyeballs).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:02 PM   #27
dalen7
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post

(not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).
I would pretty much agree with you - so your right I wasnt implying that.

Sport fighting is indeed what its name suggest and they train like any other athlete to be proficient, etc.

Krav Maga, etc. has its purposes, as you mentioned, for a whole different scenario.

And then there are regular brawls. The guys that take all of this stuff who are not 'sport fighters' and the rules can truly be flexible...depending on the set up of the situation and what is happening at the time. (its the great unknown to a certain extent.)

I have been in a couple of those situations - (regular fights...which really are not regular, but again depend on the situation at hand and its true immediate danger.)

Good post - its good to clarify.

Peace

dAlen

dAlen [day•lynn]
dum spiro spero - {While I have breathe - I have hope}

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Old 07-31-2008, 03:42 PM   #28
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

[quote=Don Magee;212559]
Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post

I just want to touch on something here. By nature of training in krav maga, traditional jujutsu, etc doesn't mean you are instantly going to beat a sport fighter in a fight (not that you were implying that, or at least I hope you were not).

Many of the deadly techniques and those described in your post are extremely hard to do in real situations. For example, eye gouging. If you can strike me in the face, then it is safe to say you can attempt an eye gouge, however, a well trained sport fighter is going to be hard to strike in the face. It reminds me of the many times I've had to demonstrate this to guys who were very sure that pinching me, trying to grab my groin, eye gouging, punching from under the mount, etc was going to defeat my grappling. Even with my subpar grappling, there lack of actual experience in physical confrontations was apparent and they were unable to do anything.

So yes, while you could use a downward elbow to the spine to stop a take down (see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI ) a proper takedown takes away the power of that shot ( see Royce Gracie v.s. Jason Delucia). And while a well placed knee to the face will knock out a guy as he takes a shot, a well place knee is not that easy if you haven't spared using that well place knee for a long time and drilled it into oblivion. Even in the example fight listed above, Royce was not really known for being good at takedowns, not compared to the good sport fighters of today.

My point is that sport fighters have very well drilled and well tested gameplans that hold up for the most part with the deadly added in. The deadly however is almost always not well trained, drilled, or tested. So when teh chips are down, most will probably be unable to uses it, or at the very least a sport fighter will be better at using it. (Reminds me of the time a guy bit me from in the mount, I sat up and poked my two fighters right on the bridge of his nose and asked if he wanted to keep his eyeballs).
Don,

That video clip should be a good learning lesson to all those who share in the true realities of self defense. Thanks for sharing.
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Old 07-31-2008, 03:54 PM   #29
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Here is a clip of Jason Delucia using Aikido techniques in a semi sparring situation. This shows some real resistance, almost what you would expect in a real altercation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:14 PM   #30
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I guess I should say attempting to use some Aikido techniques.
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:51 PM   #31
DonMagee
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Here is a clip of Jason Delucia using Aikido techniques in a semi sparring situation. This shows some real resistance, almost what you would expect in a real altercation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVbS0xHCerw
Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-31-2008, 07:56 PM   #32
lifeafter2am
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me
I concur. I see very little actual Aikido as there are even scenes when he is going after the attacker and forcing techniques.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:24 PM   #33
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I suspect that Jason Delucia is probably not a well season Aikidoist. Not sure if has has any dans. It's the first attempt of Aikido techniques that I have seen posted on the internet with real resistance. I think the most important thing to gain from this video, is the effectiveness vs non-effectiveness of an Aikido technique with resistance. Realities of a resisting uke is rarely shown in the Aikido world on the internet. I would love for someone to show full resistance and post it on the internet. No demonstrations, but full all out resistance while applying an Aikido technique.

One has to modify the technique to some degree to arrive at the same conclusion in some cases, due to the resistance.
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:32 PM   #34
lifeafter2am
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I suspect that Jason Delucia is probably not a well season Aikidoist. Not sure if has has any dans. It's the first attempt of Aikido techniques that I have seen posted on the internet with real resistance. I think the most important thing to gain from this video, is the effectiveness vs non-effectiveness of an Aikido technique with resistance. Realities of a resisting uke is rarely shown in the Aikido world on the internet. I would love for someone to show full resistance and post it on the internet. No demonstrations, but full all out resistance while applying an Aikido technique.

One has to modify the technique to some degree to arrive at the same conclusion in some cases, due to the resistance.
I agree, but, at least what I have learned, is defense against full on attacks. Not going after an attacker and muscling techniques. I am not saying that all techniques work all the time, but the type of resistance you are trying to show here isn't realistic in my opinion. When I have punch coming at me, the attacker doesn't know I am about to toss him, and won't recoil and re-center his body. I am not the most seasoned Aikidoka, but I have been out with people who have used Aikido before, and obviously the person didn't roll with the techniques.

Resistance is one thing, but this video is full on, I know what you are doing and I am resisting, which isn't realistic either in my opinion.


"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:43 PM   #35
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I give him credit for showing a possibly 190 to 200 lbs human, not cooperating to a technique and attempting to apply Aikido techniques. Sure, it's a little sloppy and not well trained, but great to see the real resistance.

Trust me it's real resistance. I tested my sensei too many times and he can never applied a technique against me like many of the demonstrations that you see on the internet and my sensei is a 4th dan. He has to always modify the technique. I'm a pretty fast puncher and I have good kicks and he almost never can catch my hand to apply a technique exactly, always a slight modification. I studied Burmese Bando for about 5 years prior to Aikido, so we learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm about 200 lbs and my sensei really had to modify his techniques for them to work. If I was really a violent person and apply those same punches with the same aggressiveness, I imagine he would have to modify even more. Jason's video is not far from reality.
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:53 PM   #36
lifeafter2am
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I give him credit for showing a possibly 190 to 200 lbs human, not cooperating to a technique and attempting to apply Aikido techniques. Sure, it's a little sloppy and not well trained, but great to see the real resistance.

Trust me it's real resistance. I tested my sensei too many times and he can never applied a technique against me like many of the demonstrations that you see on the internet and my sensei is a 4th dan. He has to always modify the technique. I'm a pretty fast puncher and I have good kicks and he almost never can catch my hand to apply a technique exactly, always a slight modification. I studied Burmese Bando for about 5 years prior to Aikido, so we learned to punch and kick pretty well. I'm about 200 lbs and my sensei really had to modify his techniques for them to work. If I was really a violent person and apply those same punches with the same aggressiveness, I imagine he would have to modify even more. Jason's video is not far from reality.
The odds of me being attacked by someone who is very well trained in both my techniques and in a striking art (such as yourself) are very, very slim. So I would not worry about it as much.

I am not attacking grappling at all, as I have trained in BJJ. I am saying that the particular video you showed did show great resistance training, but not street fight realistic. At least not the fights I saw (growing up in Miami).


"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:59 PM   #37
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I understand now. I agree with you. I bet the mean streets of Mami have some pretty tough guys. lol
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:01 PM   #38
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
I understand now. I agree with you. I bet the mean streets of Mami have some pretty tough guys. lol
Just a few. lol.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 08-01-2008, 05:36 AM   #39
Bryan Sproles
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

IIRC, in that Delucia vs. Gracie fight, I think Jason referred to his style as Kung Fu (he was certainly wearing that type of uniform in his pre-fight intro and was wearing a sash typical of the Kung Fu uniforms I've seen, in his actual fight.)

I only remember maybe one or two fighters very early in the UFC's history (sometime between UFC 1 and maybe...5 or 6) who ever claimed their style as Aikido.

-Bryan
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Old 08-01-2008, 05:58 AM   #40
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Interesting video, while I see the aikido influence in there it is in the minority. Most of what he is doing looks like bjj to me
The clip is from Jason's "Combat Aikido" series, discussed some time ago:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=109071

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Old 08-01-2008, 12:11 PM   #41
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Aikido is one art and grappling is another lets not confuse them.
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Old 08-01-2008, 01:06 PM   #42
DonMagee
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

grappling is just a range of fighting that begins with the clinch (or even trapping range if you like) and extends to cover throwing, submissions, and ground work (controls and pins)

Many arts have grappling. Just like man have striking.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-01-2008, 04:14 PM   #43
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

to me "Art" connotates a creative expression of "self". You have many "arts" fine arts, theater arts....martial arts. Collectively and conceptually we call these things "arts".

However when you get down to the actual practice of "arts" you have "practices, methodologies, techniques, tactics, procedures that allow you to learn ways of performing, executing, or expressing yourself.

To me, by saying "lets not confuse the two"...you are taking a arbitrary and parochial view of the "whole" of the "martial arts", of which Aikido, BJJ, Judo and every other practice/methodology is a part of.

The division lines are really quite arbitrary based on philosophy, perspective, or experience.

I perfer to look at Aikido as a methodology, not as an art. As such it allows you to fully explore the conditions that you may apply to the situation as we incur say in Judo and BJJ and apply the principles of aikido and still be well within the "Art" of aikido.

I'd perfer to say "lets make sure we understand the conditions and constraints in which we are practicing" vice saying "lets not confuse the two arts".

There is a difference in this perspective which opens up a whole new way of thinking and learning. One that does not limit you by the paradiqms and habits of daily practice.

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Old 08-03-2008, 01:57 PM   #44
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Here's a word brought to mind by Kevins good post above:

Praxis:
In Ancient Greek the word praxis (πρᾱξις) referred to activity engaged in by free men. Aristotle held that there were three basic activities of man: theoria, poiesis and praxis. There corresponded to these kinds of activity three types of knowledge: theoretical, to which the end goal was truth; poietical, to which the end goal was production; and practical, to which the end goal was action. Aristotle further divided practical knowledge into ethics, economics and politics. He also distinguished between eupraxia (good praxis) and dyspraxia (bad praxis, misfortune).
'Art',or 'Craft', or 'Method' all can be approached with this in mind ( or out of mind if you're really good. LOL)
Best,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 08-03-2008 at 01:59 PM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 08-03-2008, 07:49 PM   #45
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Awesome Aiki(Aikido) techniques used in newaza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8
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Old 08-03-2008, 08:03 PM   #46
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

The closes thing to Aiki techniques, used in a sports competition. Kazushi Sakuraba uses Aiki submissions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSWl8ZVQRb8&NR=1
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Old 08-04-2008, 06:46 AM   #47
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Not really seeing it, sorry. Looks like normal mma to me.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:00 AM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Salim,

Wrist twisting and elbow locking doesn't make Aikido.

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Old 08-04-2008, 07:34 AM   #49
salim
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

Yes I agree it's not Aikido. I was not trying to imply that it's Aikido like the millions of demonstrations on the internet that we see. What I was trying to imply, is the Aiki principles being demonstrated with the wrist, hand grab. You will almost never see Aikido being applied in a real life self defense or sports fighting event like what we see on the internet. You have to modify your techniques for a real situation or sports situation. The Aiki principles remain the same, unbalancing your opponent and redirect his/her own inertia. Unbalancing your opponent can take place in newaza as though you were standing. To many times I have tested my sensei using Burmese Bando punches and kicks. He didn't apply the Aikido techniques as seen in a demonstration or the billions found on the internet, but Aiki methods were applied based on the situation that he was presented with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkcToDyV7b8
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Old 08-04-2008, 07:41 AM   #50
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Re: Grappling In Aikido

I think there must be more to aiki principles then the basic principles of judo mixed with some wrist locks. If that's the case then judo and bjj are already aikido.

- Don
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