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Old 07-22-2008, 10:48 AM   #26
James Davis
 
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
In my opinion we can kickstart this process by doing all we can to focus economic stimulus on programs of the arts. Yep. $300 billion a year to the NEA. Alot of money but not even close to what has been spent murdering thousands of innocent children and their parents in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last few years.

Art! Not Bombs! Art! Not Bombs!
Too much of my tax money has already gone to support "artists" who create works like "Piss Christ". Supplementing people so that they can attack what other people hold dear will not create harmony.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 07-22-2008, 10:57 AM   #27
lifeafter2am
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post
Too much of my tax money has already gone to support "artists" who create works like "Piss Christ". Supplementing people so that they can attack what other people hold dear will not create harmony.
No it does not, but one has to think that art like this is needed to keep people grounded as well. My belief is that most people take them selves and their religions/philosophies etc way too seriously. Plus, who says it is necessarily attacking, that is subjective. Sometimes art is just art .... but this is off topic now.

I don't know about stimulating an economic change by tunneling funds into the arts, and this is coming from both a part-time artist, and vocal advocate of the arts.

In order for any kind of change to work, people need to abandon their ideas about the "American dream", which has turned into not being independent, but being rich and having stuff. Consumerism is our biggest problem, and it only gets worse as it spreads to the rest of the world. Not saying that the US is solely responsible for it, but one cannot argue that much of it comes from us.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-28-2008, 12:51 PM   #28
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

Interesting report...

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...ets/index.html

Makes you wonder if the recently signed housing bill will do more harm than good.

How many banks can we taxpayers bail out?

William Hazen
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Old 07-28-2008, 01:10 PM   #29
lifeafter2am
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Interesting report...

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...ets/index.html

Makes you wonder if the recently signed housing bill will do more harm than good.

How many banks can we taxpayers bail out?

William Hazen
As much as I disagree with the taxpayers having to bail out the banks, I really don't see any other option. If they went under what would that mean for our economy? On the other hand though, is bailing them out only a band-aid on the larger problem?

Nice site, has some great articles!

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:27 PM   #30
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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As much as I disagree with the taxpayers having to bail out the banks, I really don't see any other option. If they went under what would that mean for our economy? On the other hand though, is bailing them out only a band-aid on the larger problem?
Obviously people like to have others take care of their problems. A little bit of robbery spread over several million people seems like a good deal I guess. Well, if banks were *not* bailed out, perhaps then that would encourage people to take their money business to responsible people, and take responsibility for finding such. Then there would actually be a market for responsible bankers, and an appreciation of history so as not to repeat things in some guise in the future. Now, it is a simple matter for bankers to dupe the population with new schemes using the same principles as before.

Besides which, the government in combination with lobbyists would still find another way to take your money...
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Old 07-28-2008, 05:50 PM   #31
lifeafter2am
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
Obviously people like to have others take care of their problems. A little bit of robbery spread over several million people seems like a good deal I guess. Well, if banks were *not* bailed out, perhaps then that would encourage people to take their money business to responsible people, and take responsibility for finding such. Then there would actually be a market for responsible bankers, and an appreciation of history so as not to repeat things in some guise in the future. Now, it is a simple matter for bankers to dupe the population with new schemes using the same principles as before.

Besides which, the government in combination with lobbyists would still find another way to take your money...
I think you missed my point. I don't agree with what they did, but if they didn't do it there was a very real possibility of sending the country into a serious depression. As much as I think they should learn their lessons, I don't think it should be taught at the expense of the entire nation.

I think they should have taken all the bonus money and the exorbitant salaries that the CEO's and such were paid and used that to bail out the companies.

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:21 PM   #32
Lorien Lowe
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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Andrew Hanson wrote: View Post
I think they should have taken all the bonus money and the exorbitant salaries that the CEO's and such were paid and used that to bail out the companies.
hear, hear.
Criminal prosecution of those most responsible.
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Old 07-29-2008, 04:31 PM   #33
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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Too much of my tax money has already gone to support "artists" who create works like "Piss Christ". Supplementing people so that they can attack what other people hold dear will not create harmony.
The politicians and the real movers and shakers of our tax dollars love it when we, the American Public, get all worked up over a pittance of govt. funded controversy like the art piece you refer to.

We are suckers when we go down that road. While we're all arguing it out over the 50 or 100 or 200K that some guy/gal got to make art that someone found offensive the govt. crooks who egg it on are stealing hundreds of billions of dollars and funneling it through companies like Halliburton.

Yep. While we're arguing over something as insane and inane as whether or not to drill for oil off the CA coast, the movers and shakers are committing treason, ignoring congressional subpoenas, torturing fellow human beings in military prison camps, killing god knows who and how many, destroying our economy, and the honor this nation may have once deserved along with the biosphere on the planet we all share.

Yep. We can stay divided and conquered as easily as a kid separating colored marbles. The War Machine folks count on it, you know. They love us distracted and arguing over nothing while they play their games of madness and terror.

We can also just say no, no, no more to the liars and thieves and traitors who we call "elected" representatives of The People. Elections are a sham. Democracy can never exist where elections serve the body politic.

Lottery Representation is the only fair and decent way to administer democracy. SS#'s go in a big hat and we draw for positions.

No need to change anything else. Same positions for municipal, state and feds. You get drawn, you do your service unless you have a serious compelling reason not to.

Regardless of who you are and what prior experience you may have you serve a single term after having completed a two year special schooling focusing on relevant studies, i.e. civics, constitutional law, foreign policy, etc, etc.

You get the same salary that is currently appropriated for whatever position. You serve once and your name is forever removed from the "hat".

For this to work lobbying will no longer be a privately funded industry. All constituents will have an opportunity to regularly communicate with their reps via publicly funded caucuses, etc.

No private lobbying will exist. It will be outlawed.

So what does this have to do with the banking crisis this thread is supposed to focus on? Everything.

One planet, one family. We must do things together and no longer abdicate our personal responsibility to each other by giving away our power to commercial concerns ( by this I mean the corporations that we all know own our politicians ).

In the USA we have long mistaken our voluntary abdication of our power as a personal freedom that is due us. Well, I do not believe that freedom is something you give away. It is something you work for constantly. And work with.

Those who do not exercise their freedoms ought not be surprised when those freedoms no longer exist. If there is no market, then why should there be a supply? Just like capitalism.

I am tired, tired, tired of seeing my fellow human beings manipulated by the machinery of greed and corruption ( govt. and commercial media ). But hey...who do Americans think they really are, anyway? Some kind of born noble and honorable folk which have a moral hand up on everyone else?

'Course quite a large number of murdered Indians might not see it that way. And then there were a few million folks forcibly brought from Africa and violently enslaved who would probably feel differently. And of course the tens of thousands of folks in Central America who were murdered in the name of the United Fruit Company would surely take umbrage with the claim.

The list goes on and on. War after war after secret war after secret war and all in the "national interests" of whom? The United States? Or rather the United Corporations of Greed and Power?

We are all better than this. And we have proven it in the past. Convincingly. When women in this nation said they deserved to vote they went out into the streets and won the freedom to vote. When workers decided they deserved the right to unionize and not be shot down by corporations wielding govt. guns when they went on strike they then went out onto the streets en masse and won the right to unionize and exert bargaining powers.

When people of recent African ancestry decided they deserved equal protection under the law they went out into the streets and won the freedoms their paler skinned counterparts already had. The list goes on and on. The freedoms we enjoy today were all won by our fellows past and present who went out into the streets and demanded their rights and forced them from that entity which had denied them. That entity being the government of The United States of America. It wasn't Communist Russia or China or North Korea or North Vietnam or Central American nations or foreign religious fanatics who denied the citizens of this nation so many of the rights they enjoy today. It was the government of the USA.

Yep. If you love your freedom thank a Civil Rights Activist. Or better yet, become one. We can do it again. We can say we deserve to be free of the control and manipulation of commercial entities and their minions holding office all over this land.

So what I do is push the LRS ( Lottery Representation System ) of democracy to lots of folks. Of course most don't want to hear of it, they think I'm crazy. My senators and congressional rep. never return my emails or phone calls. So what? I'm doing something and that's what matters. I'm exercising my freedoms that were won for me by my fellows and using them to help create what I believe to be better freedoms.

And you know what...once in awhile someone gets to thinking about it and maybe that will help foster a change which might occur decades down the road. And many, many people are pushing their own ideas of positive and progressive changes which promote equitable living among all human beings.

We'll get there someday. We will. In the meantime I celebrate the right we all have to like or dislike a particular piece of taxpayer funded art and to speak of it. However I do not celebrate anything which acts as a distraction to offenses much more grievous than even the most universally offensive artwork could ever become.

What was it? Eight years ago? All that hubbub over the NEA's paltry $200 million dollar budget. And our representatives worked so hard and so long to do what? They cut it to $50 million, I think it was. This was back in the day of a Federal Govt. budget surplus. Today we have a deficit of near a half a trillion dollars.

Yep. American politicians…they're really working for us.
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Old 07-30-2008, 11:24 AM   #34
James Davis
 
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
The politicians and the real movers and shakers of our tax dollars love it when we, the American Public, get all worked up over a pittance of govt. funded controversy like the art piece you refer to.
Government funded. My being Catholic isn't the only thing that causes me to take offense at "Piss Christ". The fact that someone is using the police power of government to take my hard earned money, and that of my neighbors, to fund it also makes me angry.
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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
We are suckers when we go down that road. While we're all arguing it out over the 50 or 100 or 200K that some guy/gal got to make art that someone found offensive the govt. crooks who egg it on are stealing hundreds of billions of dollars and funneling it through companies like Halliburton.
You brought up the NEA, so that's what I wrote about. I don't like war either. In either case, it's taxation without representation

Quote:
Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
Lottery Representation is the only fair and decent way to administer democracy. SS#'s go in a big hat and we draw for positions.

No need to change anything else. Same positions for municipal, state and feds. You get drawn, you do your service unless you have a serious compelling reason not to.

Regardless of who you are and what prior experience you may have you serve a single term after having completed a two year special schooling focusing on relevant studies, i.e. civics, constitutional law, foreign policy, etc, etc.

You get the same salary that is currently appropriated for whatever position. You serve once and your name is forever removed from the "hat".
I support term limits, but I do not support this system. What are we to do if some neo-nazi is sent up to represent us? Some people are unelectable, for good reason.

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
For this to work lobbying will no longer be a privately funded industry. All constituents will have an opportunity to regularly communicate with their reps via publicly funded caucuses, etc.

No private lobbying will exist. It will be outlawed.
So average Joes will no longer be allowed to pool their money and buy advertising so that they have a voice that can be heard? Private lobbying will still exist, it'll just be people who aren't that interested in obeying laws; it'll be called bribery. Gun free zones sometimes have shootings, and drug free schools and workplaces sometimes have junkies. When we outlaw something, we seldom get rid of it, and often give more police power to the government.

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
In the USA we have long mistaken our voluntary abdication of our power as a personal freedom that is due us. Well, I do not believe that freedom is something you give away. It is something you work for constantly. And work with.
Agreed. See above.

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Dan O'Day wrote: View Post
We are all better than this. And we have proven it in the past. Convincingly. When women in this nation said they deserved to vote they went out into the streets and won the freedom to vote.
We gave women the right to vote long before many nations who were much older than we.

http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/suffrage.htm
We granted women the right to vote before some pretty ancient places that should have thought of it already:

Pourtugal, Spain, Japan, China, India, Canada, Greece, and Switzerland all followed our lead.

You're right in saying that your post has everything to do with the current economic situation. Those of us who live within our means and conduct ourselves with above-board honesty are bailing out businesses that chose to make unwise decisions. The government is using its power to tax us to give our money to undeserving people, organizations, and wars. The NEA is just a small example.

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 07-30-2008, 01:59 PM   #35
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

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James Davis, Jr. wrote: View Post

You're right in saying that your post has everything to do with the current economic situation. Those of us who live within our means and conduct ourselves with above-board honesty are bailing out businesses that chose to make unwise decisions. The government is using its power to tax us to give our money to undeserving people, organizations, and wars. The NEA is just a small example.
Thanks God I think there may actually be some push back this year if Obama holds true. As far as I am concerned I would give the government allot more money if they needed it because after it's ours right? LOL But until they spend it responsibly and stop trying to destroy the pubic commons with "private enterprise" I am fighting to keep every dollar.
That is my way of legally protesting "taxation without representation"

William Hazen
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:38 AM   #36
Dan O'Day
 
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Re: one of the largest bank failures in American history

James, I am attempting to address your points in this post. Please forgive my lack of savvy with the quote function. I will place your quotes in italics.

Government funded. My being Catholic isn't the only thing that causes me to take offense at "Piss Christ". The fact that someone is using the police power of government to take my hard earned money, and that of my neighbors, to fund it also makes me angry.


Understood. Of course in a system where we, theoretically anyway, pool our resources for the greater good of all not all people will be pleased all the time with any given application of funding. But one may be pleased all the time if that application of funding is supportive of democracy.

You brought up the NEA, so that's what I wrote about. I don't like war either. In either case, it's taxation without representation

I did bring up the NEA. Interesting take on war with regard to taxation. I think of it more as an utter failure of diplomacy followed by acts of terror.

I support term limits, but I do not support this system. What are we to do if some neo-nazi is sent up to represent us? Some people are unelectable, for good reason.


Yes, some people may not best represent the consensus of their constituents under the LRS. However I believe those scenarios will be the exception to the rule.

I have far more faith in the neighbor down the street or the fellow worker rising to the occasion of being chosen as representative of the people than I do in a politician who calculates every step of the way on his/her rise to power. And then uses that power primarily to stay in power.

Nope. Elections are inherently flawed. Because candidates want to win. And when someone wants to win things often go awry, to put it nicely.

Incidentally, this is one of the things I so love about aikido. Nobody wants to "win". Except in a victory over self concept of course.

So average Joes will no longer be allowed to pool their money and buy advertising so that they have a voice that can be heard? Private lobbying will still exist, it'll just be people who aren't that interested in obeying laws; it'll be called bribery. Gun free zones sometimes have shootings, and drug free schools and workplaces sometimes have junkies. When we outlaw something, we seldom get rid of it, and often give more police power to the government.


It would be very easy to outlaw lobbying. The fact that no represenative could serve a second term would play a huge role in making lobbying a non-starter anyway. Single terms mean no time to court represenatives and get them to do your bidding.

By the way, the "average Joes pooling money for ad time to have their voices heard" is a bit disengenous don't you think. In all my years and travels acoss this land I've yet to meet one of these "average Joes".

Political action groups are primarily funded by hidden enterprises which often stay hidden to use a tax free status, like that which churches enjoy, to illegally fund their causes.

Caucuses would be publicly funded and voices would be heard so there would be no need for lobbying as we today know it anyway.

We gave women the right to vote long before many nations who were much older than we.


The govt. of the USA never gave anybody anything. We citizens have forced our civil rights from the govt. Women demanded their right to vote and then went out and onto the streets to show they were serious about it. Women wrested their right to vote from a govt. that for too long - maybe always - has been an entity seperate from the People it supposedly serves.

Your point of women being able to vote in the USA before having that right in other countries is a bit lost on me. I try not to rate things on a comparative basis. But that's an entirely different topic.

In closing, thank you for your input and willingness to share this discussion.
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