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Old 07-24-2008, 08:49 AM   #151
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I spoke with Chris P last night. I think we came to some terms on this one.

IF you can get to a position such that you can hit uke with an atemi and they can't easily hit you (like you are facing them, and they are not facing you) you are in a good position to do lots of techniques. And that will give you some degree of a "mechanical advantage". It will generally be enough unless your uke has developed uncommon structure. Which leads me to the next point/level of this stuff:

Someone mentioned it being all in the hips. Well there is a stage when I would have agreed. Now I work very hard to not move my hips much at all - and do it all from what will eventually be tremendously developed central equilibrium ("structure") which is a whole different level of "mechanical advantage" that has very little to do with getting the right angle relative to your uke.

Applying such "structure" to aikido waza then can be taken to the level of "aiki" where just touching uke can wind up with their uke's shoulder "floating" up and/or them dumping down at the floor at your feet. And that -to me- is yet a 3rd level of "mechanical advantage".

In my experience there is also a 4th level of "mechanical advantage" where you are dealing with someone else who also has uncommon structure developed in their body. This is where "soft power" is used to blow through other people's structure.

I was arguing "structure" against "mechanical advantage" because I was concerned that the level of depth of understanding "mechanical advantage" would only communicate the first/surface level of that concept I attempted to describe above.

Up thread, Chris Moses took on the same type of "depth" issue about surface level understanding of "atemi" and I totally agree with him. When you can deliver atemi from structure using aiki you are getting towards the 3rd and 4th level of depth concerning "mechanical advantage".

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-24-2008 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:14 PM   #152
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
We don't shy away from atemi, but it gets frustrating to talk about because, like Ignatius mentions, most people think of atemi as simplistic strikes added on top of or around an aikido technique. Our movements simply *are* atemi. By that I mean that the movements we do are basically all strikes and most impact into uke's core to some extent.
To avoid repeating myself and cross-threading uncessarily I responded to Ignatius's points on the Atemi thread which he previously cross-threaded from THIS thread and, and .... OOOoooh, get-ting , diz-zy. Here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=72

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:21 PM   #153
dalen7
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Dom Staub wrote: View Post
A possible answer to this post is instead of making it work, why not let it evolve?
I like that - I think that can work.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 07-24-2008, 02:25 PM   #154
dalen7
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Not to go against atemi, just not clear to me where the logic in this particular argument is going.
Timing, hes not going to be doing a 100 things at once.
Find the opening, take advantage of it, and work fast.

It really is a depends...if the first thing he does is runs up and knocks your block off...suppose your right, not much you will do. - It depends on a number of factors.

Suppose the best one would be to run...well, in truth not get started.
But if your bent on getting started not using atemi isnt going to help you much as he will be doing everything he can - heck, while we are at it, lets go all out old fashioned juijitsu and bite and gouge. - in a real situation, you do what you can.

In doing that, I suppose if you can, offset him and see if you can pin the big fellow...what do I know about such things though...definitely not the expert.

peace

dAlen

p.s. - very little 'logic' in my post as you may see... things are as they are.

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Old 07-24-2008, 02:32 PM   #155
dalen7
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
To avoid repeating myself and cross-threading uncessarily I responded to Ignatius's points on the Atemi thread which he previously cross-threaded from THIS thread and, and .... OOOoooh, get-ting , diz-zy. Here:
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...9&postcount=72
Didnt mean to turn the Kote Gaeshi thread into an atemi thread - basically it started this way after I came away from the seminar where our 4th dan sensei stresses atemi in every move...basically 3 strikes in each move.

I thought it was interesting, so I tried to incorporate it into this thread, especially since it was kote gaeshi that he used it with and it caught my attention.

Suppose in the end we can pit the senseis against each other in a ring and see who is right. (just kidding.)
(Although if you see a pic of my sensei, it wouldnt matter what he knew, I wouldnt challenge him.)

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - I do need to go through and read your post you linked to more thoroughly, as well as others on atemi with Aikido to see what blends for the various situations work best.

To some extent it seems like you would need 'live' training, of some sort, to really iron out all of the philosophical bits to see if it works in application.

I can see atemi offsetting uke to much to make an Aikido technique work, if you see what I mean.

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-24-2008 at 02:44 PM.

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