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Old 07-22-2008, 12:14 PM   #51
salim
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Re: Atemi purpose

Quote:
Andrew Hanson wrote: View Post
I don't know anything about Roy Dean so I can not comment there, but I don't find MMA barbaric at all, but it is just a sport. I don't see strict MMA training as a viable self-defense method because you are working within a rule system, which doesn't exist in true self-defense situations. I also don't really find boxing all that viable either, although I know many who would disagree. Not to mention you don't train against multiple opponents, like you would at the higher levels of Aikido training.

I see no need to remove Atemi from Aikido, sometimes it is necessary .... but self-defense can be intellectualized, just to a certain point. I think a lot of people miss the point that the moves you learn in Aikido are a starting point for you to develop your own effective "style" (approach may be a better term here). No one person's style (approach) is effective for everyone, and you must do what works for you. For me it includes Atemi, and some groundwork as well.

You and I we will likely disagree that Atemi is "necessory for self-defense" (your quote), because I don't believe to be effective in defending youself you have to strike, but, this is based on my subjective experience, as your opinion is more than likely based on your subjective experience (or vicarious experience / anecdotal evidence which essentially equates to the same thing). Like I said, to me Aikido gives me the option to use "gentler" methods, something that other arts do not provide. But, there are times to use Atemi as well .... whether it should be taught at lower or higher levels of learning is another discussion entirely.

Forget the MMA/UFC rules. MMA concepts are street worthy and that's the point that I'm making. It can be used to save your life or a love one. It doesn't matter if it's BJJ, Muay Thai or Aikido, they all can be applied to defend yourself.

Roy Dean clips:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y&feature=related
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:18 PM   #52
salim
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Not bad for both Atemi and Randori and it illustrates a basic difference between some styles of Aikido and IMO can be dangerous...

When Uke strikes Nage stops the attack by focusing on the hand blocking/grabbing it before "doing something Aikido like" We teach our students to leave the hand alone IOW let the strike pass and focus on taking Uke's center. Your focus should be on Uke's center not on blocking the strike..A good boxer or striker would destroy you if you did not enter with them and take their center right away.

Timing is everything..I also find that if I focus on the strike I miss the opportunity most of the time to enter. Also if I assume some kind of fighting stance an experienced person may not enter right away but will themselves move and try to get a better angle of attack. Basic sparring is all about looking for an "angle of attack"

I like the kind of advanced Randori were Ukes look for an advantage and try to exploit openings themselves Let me tell you if I am being honest with myself and focused on bettering my Aikido. most of the time the Uke's win...Why?

Fight or flight takes over and I start fighting (like assuming a fighting hanmi) IOW I get tired and start trying to box with a boxer or grapple with a grappler...I lose most everytime if I stay solely within the bounds of Aikido

In the context of how I interpret Nishio Shihan's Atemi I differ a bit from my Sempai. Atemi must be good enough to end a conflict...
Now I am not talking about one punch knockouts but if your Aikido is going to work at all your Atemi needs the kind of power to end the conflict.

That is my interpretation of what Nishio Shihan meant and fits in perfectly with the philosophy of Aikido is the Sword. All Tsuke with a Sword is meant to be a killing thrust. Atemi IMO must have the same philosophy. For Aikido to work as a Budo it must be a Martial Art. This where I completely agree with the IMA and DR guys. All too often Aikido folks have no idea how to use Atemi do not practice it enough. Then there are those who come to the Dojo who have no experience with any striking art....and as they grow in their practice this weakness becomes the flaw which makes them doubt the authenticity of Aikido Waza. Who can blame them if all they know how to do is try to grab or block Uke's fist...Or...If all they have experienced is some Aiki Bunny Uke dancing up to them with their arm extended and their fist out?

That is why IG's view of the book and tapes misses a little something. Nishio Shihan simply shows how and why the fight is over through Atemi and like Stefan suggested we invite Uke to end the conflict at many points during the technique. However he could walk the walk too... Believe me if he or one of his Senior Students did hit you "stopped" fighting and allowed them to finish the technique or end the conflict. I mention one of Nishio Sensei's Senior Students Tanaka Sensei allot ( He is an Uke in some of the Videos). When I met him I noticed right away his knuckles had calluses on them as thick as quarters. He looked like he knew how to use Atemi.

William Hazen
Kudos, well said!
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:20 PM   #53
lifeafter2am
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Re: Atemi purpose

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Forget the MMA/UFC rules. MMA concepts are street worthy and that's the point that I'm making. It can be used to save your life or a love one. It doesn't matter if it's BJJ, Muay Thai or Aikido, they all can be applied to defend yourself.

Roy Dean clips:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SivWAcPlzFg&feature=related

http://youtube.com/watch?v=R7GfQdB9a8Y&feature=related
Thats some interesting stuff. Although I wouldn't go from a pin to an arm bar, I can see where it would be effective.

I agree that everything can be used to defend yourself or others, its all in how you apply it!


"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:30 PM   #54
senshincenter
 
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Re: Atemi

It's true, there are many interpretations of Aikido. Along that line, for me, there's just way too many divisions going on here: religious/martial, Aikido-like/non-Aikido-like, etc. The point of my post was that these divisions are the problem, and trying to come up with better dividing lines, etc., is never going to be the solution because such action in the end can only be delusion in the face of what violence truly is (primal, ugly, raw, etc.).

As there are choices to how to understand Aikido, there are people that are choosing. If you want strikes in your Aikido, just choose to put them in. If that in the end has you departing from what someone "above" you is doing, so be it. In this way, for me, it's silly to talk about, "Is there striking in Aikido?" This is because the only real question that could be relevant is, "What is your Aikido like?," and this is question best posed to oneself. To understand this question from any kind of organization or institutional point of view is in essence to say, "I don't have an Aikido yet."

For me, violence is violence, fighting is fighting, and man can make an art or a spiritual practice out of anything. The only person that would not agree with this is by profession or by hobby a museum curator - a collector of dead things. For me, if you want your art to be viable as a martial or as a spiritual practice, you need it to be alive - not dead. Therefore, for me, the most dangerous thing to a viable practice is the museum death brought about by delineations that have more to do with institutional politics and its symbolic capital than with anything that might seriously matter in a pinch.

To Matthew, the original poster, in my opinion, if you want to find striking in Aikido, you have two choices: Adopt the institutional-based positions that look to legitimate what by all other martial arts is pretty much a lack of striking, or find it on your own (which you will have to do in the end anyways) in the currently institutionally-illegitimate understandings of Aikido that already have done so.

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:21 PM   #55
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Re: Atemi

Talking about atemi as a blow in the context of dojo practice is only creating more illusions. You can’t learn swimming in an empty pool. As in the dojo nobody really hits an attacker (as in boxing, kyokushin, MMA or MT), all these big talks about atemi it is exactly as you are trying to swim in an empty pool.
Of course, one could argue that attacker must react in ‘natural and safe way’ and if he is conditioned like that, we can hit for real.
Unfortunately, the objective definition of ‘natural and safe way’ simply doesn’t exist, and every instructor creates one for himself. As a result, his students will have certain particular conditioning that will be invalid in other dojo. I’ll not add that it will be not valid also on somebody outside of aikido – to not go off topic…
That’s why, IMO heavy use of atemi as a blow in the dojo as a key element of every technique it is only adding another illusion. The techniques become deformed by artificial reactions of attacker.

I believe that atemi in aikido has nothing to do with hitting, waiving, distracting etc…Atemi in aikido it is about stabbing with tanto, wakizashi or sword. It must be done in the position that attacker can’t avoid it. As that, we must practice empty hand techniques in the way, we don’t need to hit attacker. It is additional challenge, but only this way we will not fooling ourselves with illusions, we can preserve save practice in the dojo, we can develop perfect, clean techniques without any opening and after few years of such practice, one may discover where and how he can stab an attacker.

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 07-22-2008, 01:28 PM   #56
skati
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Re: Atemi

David, nothing against the style, but I don't feel Aikido is for me. From a combat standpoint, I am a striker through and through. I mentioned this to someone in pm, but from watching the videos of Aikido, it looks like you'd need a lot of patience to be effective in the style. I personally don't feel like I have the patience necessary to effectively train and master Aikido.

However, as this thread has continued, and my searches outside of this site, I have been gaining more and more respect for the style and the people that practice it. You all make it look so easy, but I suppose that comes from all the practice you have been putting into it.

When I first looked up Aikido, the sites and videos I had originally looked at, I didn't see anyone attacking (other than the uke). All I saw were masters redirecting people and throwing them. When people like me, that are outsiders to the art, see that, a lot of times we tend to think that's ALL the style offers.

However, during the course of my research, I've come across some attacks, but not too many. From reading of (supposedly for some sites...like wikipedia) what Aikido is supposed to be about, I began to wonder how the strikes I read about did fit in.

I must admit that the original purpose of this was for a school project I'm getting a head start on. I'm attending a video game making college (well others, but I'm majoring in that) and my project is a 2 dimensional fighting game. One of the characters is a peaceful high school girl that, storywise, focuses more on defense and trying not to hurt the opponent too badly when fighting. Me and a friend both looked at several martial arts and came to the conclusion that the best two styles for her (we wanted her to be a martial artist) were Tai Chi Quan (or Chan, or whatever) and Aikido. From there, we settled on Aikido.

Another friend of mine claimed Aikido isn't a good style for the type of game we're doing, but I personally disagree. From there, I started my research.

I've been trying to come up with a list of strikes for her normal attacks (normals = strikes and are needed there...they're the most basic attacks a character has. Throws, redirects, and counters are in a different category). That's been the hardest part in designing the girl, was the normals, since there was (prior to this thread) too little information I could find.

As I said before, this thread has helped me out tremendously, I appreciate all of you that have responded here. I'm also very happy that it is still going on and that it continues to do so. As I said before, the more this thread has gone on, the more I have learned about Aikido (from videos and discussion), not just in relation to strikes. The more I've learned about Aikido, the more respect I have gained for the style and its practitioners.

Been a while since I've been in a dojo, but I believe bowing to your superiors is still the accepted form of showing respect.

So, I bow before you all, masters, teachers, and students alike, for being kind enough to share your knowledge and thoughts.

Thank you so much for it.
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Old 07-22-2008, 03:47 PM   #57
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Atemi

Not a master, so no bowing please

anywho, if you are looking for strikes for a character whose basics are striiking and whose advanced waza are throwing and locking, I'd consider the following:

Low kicks to legs
stop kicks
knife edge strikes with the hands
palm strikes with the hands
nuckle strikes to soft parts
maybe some knee strikes.

Then set up your character to do throws and such from there. Sounds like an interesting project!
Good luck,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 07-22-2008, 04:58 PM   #58
senshincenter
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Matthew Stevens wrote: View Post
David, nothing against the style, but I don't feel Aikido is for me. From a combat standpoint, I am a striker through and through. I mentioned this to someone in pm, but from watching the videos of Aikido, it looks like you'd need a lot of patience to be effective in the style. I personally don't feel like I have the patience necessary to effectively train and master Aikido.

However, as this thread has continued, and my searches outside of this site, I have been gaining more and more respect for the style and the people that practice it. You all make it look so easy, but I suppose that comes from all the practice you have been putting into it.

When I first looked up Aikido, the sites and videos I had originally looked at, I didn't see anyone attacking (other than the uke). All I saw were masters redirecting people and throwing them. When people like me, that are outsiders to the art, see that, a lot of times we tend to think that's ALL the style offers.

However, during the course of my research, I've come across some attacks, but not too many. From reading of (supposedly for some sites...like wikipedia) what Aikido is supposed to be about, I began to wonder how the strikes I read about did fit in.

I must admit that the original purpose of this was for a school project I'm getting a head start on. I'm attending a video game making college (well others, but I'm majoring in that) and my project is a 2 dimensional fighting game. One of the characters is a peaceful high school girl that, storywise, focuses more on defense and trying not to hurt the opponent too badly when fighting. Me and a friend both looked at several martial arts and came to the conclusion that the best two styles for her (we wanted her to be a martial artist) were Tai Chi Quan (or Chan, or whatever) and Aikido. From there, we settled on Aikido.

Another friend of mine claimed Aikido isn't a good style for the type of game we're doing, but I personally disagree. From there, I started my research.

I've been trying to come up with a list of strikes for her normal attacks (normals = strikes and are needed there...they're the most basic attacks a character has. Throws, redirects, and counters are in a different category). That's been the hardest part in designing the girl, was the normals, since there was (prior to this thread) too little information I could find.

As I said before, this thread has helped me out tremendously, I appreciate all of you that have responded here. I'm also very happy that it is still going on and that it continues to do so. As I said before, the more this thread has gone on, the more I have learned about Aikido (from videos and discussion), not just in relation to strikes. The more I've learned about Aikido, the more respect I have gained for the style and its practitioners.

Been a while since I've been in a dojo, but I believe bowing to your superiors is still the accepted form of showing respect.

So, I bow before you all, masters, teachers, and students alike, for being kind enough to share your knowledge and thoughts.

Thank you so much for it.
Matt - this is so cool. And, if you will allow, pretty insightful: Aikido = peaceful high school girl bent on not hurting people. lol I don't care what side of the debates one is on, that is pretty funny. :-)

If you got the time, feel invited to check out our site: www.senshincenter.com. My brother works for EA right now. It's a tough industry. I wish you luck and success.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:12 PM   #59
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Re: Atemi

Other videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcQZgtLcCuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCiKdeRvdM

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:12 PM   #60
skati
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Not a master, so no bowing please

anywho, if you are looking for strikes for a character whose basics are striiking and whose advanced waza are throwing and locking, I'd consider the following:

Low kicks to legs
stop kicks
knife edge strikes with the hands
palm strikes with the hands
nuckle strikes to soft parts
maybe some knee strikes.

Then set up your character to do throws and such from there. Sounds like an interesting project!
Good luck,
Ron
Thank you, but I've got the normals done now, as well as her two standard throws. Now I'm working on specials and supers (this is a Street Fighter type of game. If you're familiar with 2D fighting games at all, you should know that particular one, as it's the grandfather of them all).

I'm working on her specials and supers now. One of her specials is called Intercept and it's basically a counter special, where she counters an attack with a throw.

Assuming I have them described right, for a mid attack, it's an Iriminage. Low attacks are countered with what's supposed to be a kaitennage and highs...well, I just kind of winged that one, but it counters jump ins.

Due to the nature of the game, I had to modify her standard throws ( kokyu nage and sumi otoshi...or at least they're supposed to be) to them being done by her as the attacker, since the throws are done by button presses and you can't wait for the other player to attack to throw (well, unless he misses, but it's not like how most of the Aikidokas I've seen videos do theirs). And you can't have a character with multiple counter moves that make up their movelists, otherwise they wouldn't stand a chance against other characters, since those kinds of moves require you to anticipate your opponent's next move (kind of like real life).

Most of her stuff, however, involves manipulation and creation of light for attacks. Like ki attacks in japanese anime, but hers is real light, not ki formed light (ki used like that is also used, but not for this girl. Her's is the real deal and is a bit more...pure, if you will). Storywise, she uses this to keep the opponent at bay and/or to deter them from coming any closer .

As far as gameplay, due to the engine, she'll have at least a couple things that'd allow a player to put up a more offensive fight in game, even though, if the character were fighting in real life, she wouldn't be fighting like that. Most of her stuff, however, are best used for counters and keep aways, even has a move that'll absorb (or absorb and counter) or reflect projectiles. She also has a healing super, and may be able to heal others storywise (that one I'm debating, but at least herself). These are just mild and moderate physical injuries though, or to give back a boost of energy, not curing cancer, aids, whatever.

I still have a bit more to do with her, but now that the normals are done, it shouldn't be too much longer. I had been thinking of, if it's not a bother to anyone else, posting some of what she can do (at least her atemi, throws, and anything else related to Aikido) on here...not the full character page, just the descriptions (so it wouldn't include the command for, say, Intercept). Or at least, pm it to someone willing to give it a look, to see if it fits. I've got a thing about trying to stay as accurate as I can to things, given circumstances on this project .

Also, thanks to senshin. The original concept belongs to the friend mentioned in the last post, that helped with the style. She came up with the idea of her character being defensive and the healing super, kind of implying the peaceful thing. I ended up coming up with the moves. I'm pushing for her to still be in high school, since she mirrors the main character's (a water elemental who's starting his first year of college in the game, but he's more like...the raging currents of the sea, if you will) younger sister, an offensive shadow elemental (ability to create and manipulate darkness).

Thanks for the encouragement you two above.

If it doesn't work out, I at least have more than enough background info and characters for a novel or two .
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:33 PM   #61
lifeafter2am
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Re: Atemi

So when do we get to play it?


"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-22-2008, 05:50 PM   #62
skati
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Andrew Hanson wrote: View Post
So when do we get to play it?

Eh, that might be a while. I just recently started working on it seriously as a project. I'm still in the process of getting a team together to work on it at my school, as well as character development and story. I've got two programmers now, me and my roommate. I've got someone in mind for graphics (that's going to be the hardest part).

Anyway, before it gets completely off topic here, I'm going to make a thread about this in the open area, so further discussion on the game itself (my Aikido girl's atemi and all aside) will be held over there.
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Old 07-22-2008, 06:43 PM   #63
skati
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Re: Atemi

I don't mean to double post, but I couldn't find the edit button on my last post.

Any discussion, wishes of luck, whatever about my game I want to be posted here now http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14847

My reason for this being so that the thread will stay on the topic of atemi.

Thanks again for sharing all the info and for wishing me luck.
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:24 PM   #64
eyrie
 
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Re: Atemi

I'm responding to Chris Moses' reply in the "Making Kote Gaeshi work with resistance" thread here as it seemed more appropriate to discuss this in the context of this thread. [Original post here]

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
...most people think of atemi as simplistic strikes added on top of or around an aikido technique. Our movements simply *are* atemi. By that I mean that the movements we do are basically all strikes and most impact into uke's core to some extent. The way most people use it is a kind of pantomime of a strike, often at the beginning of a scenario, again to "soften" the attacker.
Precisely... when most people talk about atemi, they're mostly referring to the initial overt go no sen or sen no sen response... as in... uke attacks, nage responds with a "softening up" atemi, or as uke begins to attack, in the same moment, nage enters with atemi to forestall. Or as some sort of "tacked on" adjunct to the technique - as in... now your body is here and this target is open so you can hit it - without neccessarily considering how a strike to that target may create a different dynamic to the intended technique. Atemi waza is not indiscriminate and must follow a logical progression, in line with the 5 points I listed above, that naturally results in the completion of the technique.

This is why I refer to it as kindergarten level atemi waza - not in a derogatory way, but to point out that there is so much more potential in using the entire body as a striking weapon.

The other point I'm getting at is that there is a far deeper level which involves a much more subtle use of atemi, such that, to the casual observer, it doesn't look like you've hit the attacker. Not that it's done so fast that the eye can't see, but rather so subtle that an observer would not have realized. Sorry to use David's video, as good as it may be, or even Saotome's iriminage - not that's it's bad as a demonstration of sorts, but it's still too "external".

As regards to the discussion of using atemi to "stop" the attacker, in the sense of giving them a "choice" to do so, or other forms of "one-hit wonders", I offer you this in reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zh1P...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwSjm44Z7Q

Now THAT's stopping an attacker cold.

PS: I can't believe that the original intent of this discussion was for a game character....

Ignatius
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Old 07-22-2008, 08:59 PM   #65
skati
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
PS: I can't believe that the original intent of this discussion was for a game character....
Well, I figured I'd probably get more of a response if I left that out and phrased it as a genuine question .

Actually, I was genuinely curious, but like I said, I really was having issues with her normals.

However, I am happy that it has gotten some posts and developed a good, long topic like this.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:03 AM   #66
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
As regards to the discussion of using atemi to "stop" the attacker, in the sense of giving them a "choice" to do so, or other forms of "one-hit wonders", I offer you this in reply:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zh1P...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILwSjm44Z7Q

Now THAT's stopping an attacker cold.

PS: I can't believe that the original intent of this discussion was for a game character....
Thanks for the videos and it brought back a rush of good memories.

Robert Bryner Sensei The man who was responsible for bringing Shoji Nishio the the United States has studied with Oyata Sensei for several decades. He has incorporated many Ryu Te style techniques into our Aikido since he is a high ranking Yudansha in both. His videos "Supplemental Training Methods foir Aikido practice Volumes 1 and 2" are keepers if you can find them. He has been a great teacher and a good friend for many many years. So yes I have actual experience with using the training methods shown in the videos through Bob's incorporation of Ryu Te into Nishio Ryu Aikido and having seen Oyata Sensei in person... All I can say his internal power is legendary. Bob is no longer allowed to teach Aikido and Ryu Te together but if you want to learn how to strike with "using your whole body" or execute Aikido "using your whole body" You can't go wrong with Ryu Te in conjunction with our Aikido.

In studying both the You Tubes Videos of Aikido and RyuTe you will notice that both have the same "not fighting stance" and both end the conflict at the moment of contact. Now perhaps one may think of this as being somewhat "kindergarten-ish" but it is approach is Martially Effective and to be considered Budo Martial Effectiveness is essential.

Here is Bob's Web Site. http://www.thedojousa.com/

For those of you in Southern California or in LA during the first weekend in August (The 2nd & 3rd) Koji Yoshida Shihan will be at Santa Monica High for his annual seminar on Shoji Nishio's Aikido and Iaido. You can get the basics from Bob's website or PM me for more info. All are welcome to attend.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-23-2008 at 01:07 AM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:28 AM   #67
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Watched a bunch of the You Tubes and this is Oyata at his best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85NHV...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJCo...eature=related

On a side note I should mention that Bryner Sensei is Semi retired (he's got his hands full with twin girls while his wife runs the Dojo and thier businesses) But if you're ever in LA and want to practice with Fowler Sensei, Bryner Sensei, or me... drop me a line. We are all within a couple of miles of each other.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-23-2008 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:39 PM   #68
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Watched a bunch of the You Tubes and this is Oyata at his best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85NHV...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmJCo...eature=related

On a side note I should mention that Bryner Sensei is Semi retired (he's got his hands full with twin girls while his wife runs the Dojo and thier businesses) But if you're ever in LA and want to practice with Fowler Sensei, Bryner Sensei, or me... drop me a line. We are all within a couple of miles of each other.

William Hazen
Wow, I just put this together. Robert Bryner used to teach Aikido in Santa Cruz at a dojo that was formerly called Aikido of Santa Cruz (but definitely not the dojo that is called that now). A good musician friend of mine used to train there, too. My friend recalls very fondly to me the time he was launched in space and for a very expansive amount of footage, resolutely and 'mysteriously' by Robert Sensei. Bryner Sensei's co-cho was Greg Brodsky who now teaches Tai Chi.
As it happens, my same friends kids practiced with me for quite awhile. And Brodsky Sensei's sons are very good friends of mine. All in the family!

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:50 AM   #69
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Wow, I just put this together. Robert Bryner used to teach Aikido in Santa Cruz at a dojo that was formerly called Aikido of Santa Cruz (but definitely not the dojo that is called that now). A good musician friend of mine used to train there, too. My friend recalls very fondly to me the time he was launched in space and for a very expansive amount of footage, resolutely and 'mysteriously' by Robert Sensei. Bryner Sensei's co-cho was Greg Brodsky who now teaches Tai Chi.
As it happens, my same friends kids practiced with me for quite awhile. And Brodsky Sensei's sons are very good friends of mine. All in the family!
I will definately see Bob at the seminar and share your memories of those days with him. Or...perhaps you can come and train... and... we can hang and surf too (though after a couple days of Ukemi I usually have a few chinks in the rusty armor ) There is a South Swell on the way. Yoshida Sensei was there at UC Santa Cruz in 98 with Nishio Sensei so he would love to see some old members of the family.

As for being thrown "mysteriously" It must not have happened...We hardly know anything about such things.

Thanks Sempai Jen. )

William Hazen
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:53 AM   #70
eyrie
 
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Re: Atemi

I hate to break up the love fest, but would people mind terribly keeping on topic? Thanks.

Ignatius
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:07 AM   #71
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
I hate to break up the love fest, but would people mind terribly keeping on topic? Thanks.
Hmmm, Hate, break, and love..........Could you please take that comment to the Violence under the Pretext of Love thread? . Or was it an atemi?

Best,
Jen

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 07-24-2008 at 09:09 AM.

Jennifer Paige Smith
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Old 07-24-2008, 01:14 PM   #72
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Atemi

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Precisely... when most people talk about atemi, they're mostly referring to the initial overt go no sen or sen no sen response... as in... uke attacks, nage responds with a "softening up" atemi, or as uke begins to attack, in the same moment, nage enters with atemi to forestall. Or as some sort of "tacked on" adjunct to the technique - as in... now your body is here and this target is open so you can hit it - without neccessarily considering how a strike to that target may create a different dynamic to the intended technique. Atemi waza is not indiscriminate and must follow a logical progression, in line with the 5 points I listed above, that naturally results in the completion of the technique.
For review, your five points were:
Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
1. A predictable physiological response in uke
2. Disturb/disrupt or even break uke's balance
3. Causes uke to change their priorities and respond in a predictable fashion
4. Create an opening to allow insertion for a technique
5. Allow for completion of the technique
.. but your points are only signs or effects, not causes or methods. I agree that a strike that did not effect one of the above is not proper atemi , or at best an affected atemi. My five points are methodological and for greatest effect -- should all be present in a strike. Having written them down now, they seem to have an unintended Buddhist flavor -- though I doubt Prince Siddhartha would approve of them.

The strike must occur with:

1. Right shape
2. Right placement
3. Right orientation
4. Right speed
5. Right time

You will note the common factor of being "right" which resolves to juji 十字 . I do not mean merely "correct," although that is implicit, I mean "right." As in right angle, 90 degrees, square. That principle flows in dynamics so it is not so trivially seen as in statics. It has elements of both space(ing) and time(ing), and is the reason that distinguishes good maai from bad maai.

One key is resonance. An object reverberates at its natural (or resonant) frequency when struck. Resonance occurs when the object is struck at its resonance frequency. Resonance also occurs when any input is delivered 90 degrees out of phase with some induced frequency (i.e. -- the gross motion of the body). 180 degrees phase difference is collision or 100% negative versus 100% positive); 0 deg or 360 deg (reinforcing or merging --is positive meeting positive and negative meeting negative), 90 degrees phase difference is between them, and harder to characterize.

Right shape is the shape where the forces imposed result from using tangential impacts -- energy at right angles to the radius to the center of some rotation or potential rotation -- not linear action/reaction but a shape that delivers right-angled stresses to the target and sudden torques. Think of the head-snapping upper cut, right cross or left hook as examples.

Right placement is placement on a target that maximizes the degree of right angled stresses propagated in the body of the target. This varies depending on range and dynamic, but because the articulation of all the body parts involves a member swinging from a center, typically you attack not the swinging end of member -- but in relation to a center of that swing and impact. Center of rotation, center of percussion and center of mass each may affect the result of the strike depending on its relation to those points.

Right orientation involves striking the dynamic target; the strike must be oriented at a right angle to the predominant line of travel. In a dynamic target on two legs this line of travel is deceptive, because in moving forward , the body sweeps out an angle of rotation centered on one hip, as does the arms making a strike that one might counter with another strike. Thus, right orientation means that in striking the center of rotation ( or in relation to the center of percussion or mass) you do so at a right angle to the radius of swing at the time of impact.

Right speed is more subtle, because the tendency is to try to deliver more speed as speed incurs more energy into the target -- forgetting that the body can also control absorbtion of energy into parts that are less vulnerable to sudden stress. . So it is more important that the speed used limit the ability of the body to control its absorption of energy. Absolute relative speed at impact may varys with a moving target, but its natural frequency does not. WHEN you hit it the speed of the strike also creates a reaction frequency response in the body of the target -- modulating (damping/absorbing) the initial impulse frequncy down (or up) toward the natural frequency. The target's (human body's) natural or resonance frequency is around 10hz, and when you strike it with an impulse at that frequency, the body's own reverberation adds energy to the striking energy AND it cannot damp it. If you strike it AT that frequency (speed/rhythm) you set up a resonance that allows the energy to "FIND" its way into weak spots in the structure in ways that neither natural frequency damping, nor the voluntary or trained responses of the body are easily able to counter by absorption/redirection into its stronger parts. A glass cracks at resonance because the vibration at the resonance frequency builds up stress that can only be relieved by a structural failure -- at the weakest points of the structure in respect to that stress.

Right time is related to the gross motion of the body and the same 90 degree resonance. The body "rings" at its resonance frequency when struck, but the body obviously can also drive its motion in a much wider variety of speeds or rhythms. Thus, the proper strike must come in time relative to the target's overall motion at a 90 degree phase difference to that motion as well for maximum disruption. This relates to orientation at a deep level, and can be easily seen in speedbag practice where ( if one is doing it effectively), the bag is always struck midway between max and minimum of its swing cycle -- right at the point where it is returning through the 90 degree pendant position. A speed bag is not aiki -- but the prinicple involved is the same. If the speed bag were a striking limb and the swivel the head or body, in aiki you would more likely strike the swivel (center of rotation) or elsewhere (like above or blow the center of percussion) I won't digress into that but look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_percussion

The body is sensitive to this set of resonance problems and has a response to it -- reflex action. When an impact impulse sets up a stress wave that exceeds a certain impulse rate in a certain critical place, the spinal reflexes react by involuntarily extending (or flexing) the limb affected -- losing structural stability (i.,e structural failure), but thus saving the integrity of the structural material (typically , an important joint). Thus, when you apply sankyo at a certain critical rate, uke's tippy-toe reaction (reflex extension) is spontaneous -- above or below that rate and you are just using pain of the torque but at just the right impulse frequency ( same as furitama or tekubi furi resonance in your own body) you are literally pressing neurological buttons. When you apply kotegaeshi similarly at the correct impulse rate (even with small amplitude of movement) you get spontaneous knees buckling behavior (reflex flexion). Shihonage similarly -- except that you are in the way of their falling down (briefly).

So this is one way of understanding aikido as 90% atemi, since the controlling waza should be delivered in the same manner, with the same five factors as a impact atemi.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 07-24-2008 at 01:28 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-24-2008, 02:21 PM   #73
ChrisMoses
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Re: Atemi

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
since the controlling waza should be delivered in the same manner, [strike]with the same five factors [/strike]as a impact atemi.
Well, I agree with this part...

Chris Moses
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Old 07-24-2008, 03:38 PM   #74
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Re: Atemi

Nishio Sensei wrote:
Quote:
Throwing and pinning with the feeling of atemi

Aikido is forty percent throwing and sixty percent pinning. You have to have a solid understanding of all the techniques. Further, in all of the techniques there is atemi. However, because many instructors these days only know aikido, their explanations of atemi tend to be mostly verbal and there is something missing. In the aikido I learned (and that I now teach), we do throws and pins with the rhythm and feeling of atemi.
You can read the full article here:
http://www.aikipeace.com/aikido/nishio.html

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
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Old 07-24-2008, 04:39 PM   #75
Aikibu
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Re: Atemi

Thanks for the link Dr. Maramba. I forgot about this interview and it should give a better understanding of Shoji Nishio.

William Hazen
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