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Old 07-11-2008, 11:43 AM   #126
ChrisMoses
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Question, "do you make the movements smaller or change the sequence when in rondori?
Yeah, everything in that video is principle based teaching drill stuff. It's all much more flexible in a less structured training environment. I don't intentionally mess with the sequence much however.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:58 AM   #127
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
I know how much Video leaves to be desired in terms of capturing essence and how much it puts you out there. I respect you for posting it( plus I now know what you look like. how fun)
Yeah, but I accept that what I know now isn't what I will know in the future. So, when I look back to things I've done/said/videotaped, I naturally go, Ack-I can't believe I did that. But logic takes over and says, well, it's what you knew at the time. If you'd known any different, you'd have done something else.

Plus, with my posting and such being fairly often, it's nice for people to see who they're conversing with. Now, everyone can use a still picture to scare all the rats away.

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Like you said, it's best to feel this stuff personally,( but is sure fun to talk about )and it looks like you'd be a fun training date. I look forward to checking out your stuff someday in person.

Thanks Again,
Jen
I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. That goes for anyone.
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:59 AM   #128
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
No, Rich Elias has frequently been seen in a fetching black ensemble...

And Jer and I are wearing a deep indigo. Both color choices are very slimming, and I need all the slimming I can get.

...that is all...
So, what outweighs the other: camera putting on 10-15 pounds or slimming color choices?

Mark
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:22 PM   #129
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Yeah, but I accept that what I know now isn't what I will know in the future. So, when I look back to things I've done/said/videotaped, I naturally go, Ack-I can't believe I did that. But logic takes over and says, well, it's what you knew at the time. If you'd known any different, you'd have done something else.

Plus, with my posting and such being fairly often, it's nice for people to see who they're conversing with. Now, everyone can use a still picture to scare all the rats away.

I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. That goes for anyone.
Go you Mark,

Now that is genuine dialogue. Have you been reading Rumi or conjuring his spirit in the ether?

"Keeping it real" is so refreshing and liberating as well.

I love your courage and support it wholly. If you want, I would be happy to be your "control group" in your experiments with structure.

You and I can visit two or three times a year. Since I am about peaked with structure for this lifetime, you can guage your progress by my baseline standard.

Interested? Mutual support from a source outside the test group.
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #130
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Hi Chris,
I'm up for meeting. You can't be all that far if you're in Ohio. What city/town are you located?

Mark
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Old 07-11-2008, 01:49 PM   #131
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post

I'll post a disclaimer. I'm way new at this stuff and don't have a near enough structure to give a good demonstration. Give me another year, I think, and I might be near enough for a decent demonstration. But, if I'm in the area, I'm definitely up for meeting, talking, and showing what I do know. That goes for anyone.
Thank You Very Much So Mr. Roboto....Domo,Domo

And if you need a crash-test-dummy, well, you know who to call ( a hint: the answer isn't Ghost Busters ).

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Old 07-11-2008, 02:09 PM   #132
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Hi Chris,
I'm up for meeting. You can't be all that far if you're in Ohio. What city/town are you located?

Mark
Baltimore, Ohio
Just a few miles east of Columbus.
If you want to come to the Hal seminar, I'll put you up at my house and we can make it a weekend.
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Old 07-11-2008, 04:29 PM   #133
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Well, this thread has indeed been helpful.

I will say that against bigger/stronger people that want to be stubborn it can still be a challenge without hurting them.

I know that with a little atemi (that we do with gyaku hanmi) it helps to break it up a bit.

But the same guy that inspired me to write this thread trained with me today and resisted through every move. (A bit stronger than I am.)

Not that this is a problem really - good to see different slants on things...but as someone mentioned, in real life you would switch techniques and use atemi, etc.

On another note:

Im testing next week during our 2nd seminar to be held in our small city here in Hungary.
If its like last year then we will have some high ranking senseis there.
(I believe Sensei Imre Marton is now 5th dan...could be wrong... and Sensei Janos, if he comes, I believe is 4th dan. Sempai (not sure why she is not called a sensei) Aniko is either 2nd or 3rd dan now, and my Sensei got his promotion in April to 1st....so a nice group of black belts which you dont see often in this neck of the woods.)

Actually feel pretty good about my progress and feel that Im ready for the test.
As you can tell Im pretty excited...for the most part none of you will recognize any of these names.
(Though Im sure there are a few Hungarian lurkers to shy to come out on the forums here.)

Anyway...

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-11-2008 at 04:35 PM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 07-18-2008, 11:24 AM   #134
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Okay, so I decided to play around some with kote gaeshi. Nothing spectacular. But I video taped it and put it on YouTube. (Actually, there's two vids but the other one is still uploading).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

So, in this vid, we start from static, but I purposefully put myself off balance and I try to stay that way while nage (Brian) tries to complete kote gaeshi in some manner by moving around me.

Brian is putting a good bit into trying to take me down, but not going as far as jumping on my outstretched hand.
At the end, I sort of just uncoiled the internal energy and it caused Brian to take a forward roll -- something neither of us had expected to happen.

Anyway, enjoy my video debut.

Mark
Nice vid Mark... very different kotegaeshi than the one I am used too. You make good points though about kotegaeshi and how not to do it. The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm. Then with momentum from uke (shoso/sosho) it becomes the bigger showy kotegaeshi that requires a breakfall and angles and a less aiki devoted application (just distance,timing and use of uke`s momentum). Not sure how others work but we generally practice the kaisho and move on to the shoso/sosho.

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Old 07-18-2008, 07:44 PM   #135
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
Nice vid Mark...
Thanks!

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
very different kotegaeshi than the one I am used too.
Well, it really isn't a "technique" in any sense of the word. It's more just playing around with structure and trying to show that even if you are off balance, internal structure is very strong.

If you think about that, then if someone is relying on uke overbalance themselves to make a technique work ... well, that won't work with someone who has internal structure. Besides the fact that they won't be unbalanced anyway.

And if you're trying to drop weight into someone or drop them into their "hole", then if they have structure, it probably isn't going to work. Depending on how good their internal structure is, of course.

Quote:
Mathew McDowell wrote: View Post
You make good points though about kotegaeshi and how not to do it. The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm. Then with momentum from uke (shoso/sosho) it becomes the bigger showy kotegaeshi that requires a breakfall and angles and a less aiki devoted application (just distance,timing and use of uke`s momentum). Not sure how others work but we generally practice the kaisho and move on to the shoso/sosho.
If I get a chance, I'll play around with that. But, really, it won't work at all if you have good internal structure.

Mark
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:21 AM   #136
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Well now it seems I have a way to get Kote Gaeshi to work.
(Of course good technique is the basic to this)

We are in the midst of our seminar here, as Im writing this, and our Sensei (4th dan) teaches Kote GAeshi this way.

(Gyaku Hami) - left hand goes up and strikes uke in the face, comes down and strikes back of wrist...the hand now free slides up to hit uke in the face and slides back down to grab ukes wrist and then kote gaeshi.

I take it, from what I have seen in the seminar (2nd year, but now I can pay attention to other details now that Im not a fresh beginner) it seems that each move is heavy atemi to ensure uke goes down and that you can have an opportunity to execute the moves.

From what I have read Im sure this would be frowned upon by some here who would rely just on technique or say that technique must not be done properly to use so much atemi.

But here, Sensei knows his stuff...its just the way he goes about teaching Aikido.

It truly is diverse (this sport) in ways that people teach and train.
Cool to learn what others do in their system.

Peace

dAlen

...off to take my test in a few mintues.

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-19-2008 at 08:23 AM.

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Old 07-19-2008, 09:25 AM   #137
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Matthew wrote:

Quote:
The waza I am used too is practiced in the kaiso/kaisho or gyoso/gyosho (standing hands on no speed or momentum) like you guys where playing with, but the ki is working toward the tatame straight down fully committed and the kotegaeshi rolling straight back into the fist itself (not outside), stretching the tendons in the backside of the hand and going directly down and not outside the sphere of the confrontations realm.
Hi Matthew,

No expert, but I actually CAN on occassion demonstrate that does not always work with someone that has decent structure.

Again, it is all about timing, speed, power, and assumptions about where we are in the process of doing this, so please keep that in mind. These are things we cannot adequately address here as we each have a different perspective maybe about what is going on.

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.

The result is usually you abandon this quickly and start training to work it on extension or moving in a different plane, much like Mark demonstrates.

Keep in mind this is simply a demo point on a small principle and NOT martial at this point.

If it where you would figure it out pretty darn quickly and move on to some other means to establish kuzushi.

Does not mean the KG does not work, it just means you have more work cut out for you to get underneath uke's center so you can uproot him to do the technique.

After you have felt this a few times you begin to realize that KG is not about pushing or pulling on the wrist/arm, but about the structure and getting underneath uke's structure and "floating" him (uproot) and establishing kuzushi in a differnt means that torquing on the arm/wrist combo.

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Old 07-19-2008, 09:28 AM   #138
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Dalen,

I understand what you are talking about, I think it is quite appropriate to do KG that way. The strike establishes kuzushi (assuming that the intent of the strike is to upset the body structure/core). therefore, allowing you to move on to using the arm/wrist as a transmitter to access the rest of the core and complete the ukemi.

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Old 07-19-2008, 09:32 AM   #139
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Matthew wrote:

Hi Matthew,

No expert, but I actually CAN on occassion demonstrate that does not always work with someone that has decent structure.

Again, it is all about timing, speed, power, and assumptions about where we are in the process of doing this, so please keep that in mind. These are things we cannot adequately address here as we each have a different perspective maybe about what is going on.

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.

The result is usually you abandon this quickly and start training to work it on extension or moving in a different plane, much like Mark demonstrates.

Keep in mind this is simply a demo point on a small principle and NOT martial at this point.

If it where you would figure it out pretty darn quickly and move on to some other means to establish kuzushi.

Does not mean the KG does not work, it just means you have more work cut out for you to get underneath uke's center so you can uproot him to do the technique.

After you have felt this a few times you begin to realize that KG is not about pushing or pulling on the wrist/arm, but about the structure and getting underneath uke's structure and "floating" him (uproot) and establishing kuzushi in a differnt means that torquing on the arm/wrist combo.
Hi Kevin,

Great post! Thanks!

Mark
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:15 PM   #140
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
...our Sensei (4th dan) teaches Kote GAeshi this way.
Another way of looking at it is that your sensei is merely showing "basic technique"... embellished by supposedly "martial applications of (overt) atemi waza"... which is crap IMO.

Before anyone gets too defensive... let me clarify. I primarily teach kids. And one of the things I won't do is teach them how to punch or kick another person... lest they try it out on some other kids in the playground.

Sure, atemi can be used to "soften" up uke. But there really is no need for the overt atemi... IF one is shown how to move their feet and body into the right position, how to release the wrist, how to create kuzushi and how to drop weight into the kuzushi point. *Sometimes* I may show a simple metsubushi combined with a wrist release, but the focus is on teaching the child how to extricate themselves from a sticky situation by using far more subtle means.

Besides, it looks far more impressive (to the other kids) when a bully simply falls over and doesn't know how they got there... and they can't turn around and say they got punched and thrown - or worse... having to explain how their wrist got broken.

Ignatius
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:11 AM   #141
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Another way of looking at it is that your sensei is merely showing "basic technique"... embellished by supposedly "martial applications of (overt) atemi waza"... which is crap IMO.

Before anyone gets too defensive... let me clarify.
I dont take any offense.

Now I have no doubt he has mastered the Aikido movements - the steps - and gone beyond basic...but you are correct, I would say, in your observation that it may seem overboard with the atemi.

From where Im at I can see both sides of the fence on this.
Depending on where your at, both sides are true.

Most definitely do NOT want kids hitting each other.

From my end - Im taking from Aikido this point: Dont even get in the fight.

On a sport end on who wins what, big ego contest, then the above comes in handy to say, "depends on person and what they mix with aikido...as well as the situation, which is primary."

One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.

And I really think this is why our sensei teaches us this way.
Its training so that this option is natural if you are in a tight spot where your 70 kilos and your opponent is 100 kilos or more...and talented at that. (Again, given the situation you will need more than just aikido - but again I will go further to say again, how could you have stayed out of the fight.)

Anyway...I have pics from the seminar over at flickr...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dalen7/

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 07-20-2008 at 12:13 AM.

dAlen [day•lynn]
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:49 AM   #142
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.
Quickest way to piss someone off... especially someone larger than you...

There are ways and means to manipulate a "large guy", without having to atemi... I've had 8yr olds throw guys outweighing them by 120kg... without having to throw a punch.

We had a cop (ex. Yoshinkan), big guy... 6ft/130kg, turn up one time and, even though he was twice my weight, I was able to quite effortlessly put a sankyo on him and throw him half way across the hall.... When he picked himself up off the floor, the first thing he said was... "How the @#%^! did you do that???".

Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.

Ignatius
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:31 AM   #143
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Thanks!

If I get a chance, I'll play around with that. But, really, it won't work at all if you have good internal structure.

Mark
Basically the kihon waza is relax shoulders and entire body and go through uke`s fist (in the tatame direction, you know gravity works) no application of pain/tech or anything just Aiki. After that go the same route, but apply the roll back into the fist stretch tendons thing and get a real life kotegaeshi. I don`t care how internally strong you are or physically strong, if you do kotegaeshi correctly it will drop any over confident individual (good base or weak base). It is one of the most effective waza in the book. And I am not an expert but I will back that call.

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Old 07-20-2008, 07:57 AM   #144
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Matthew wrote:

That said, if someone has good structure, you could STAND on top of the hand pushing down as hard as you want to. I will even let you readjust however you wish to, and you are STILL not going to get it to work. Actually this way (if I am envisioning what your talking about correctly) is much, much more easy to resist as you end up pushing down into my core even much more. The result is that you get up rooted more and more the harder you push down. So you never can really get there.
Hi Kevin
Not sure we are on the same page, but sure I understand what you say. No push or pull is gonna make this work...hell yeah, particularly if uke is well grounded. But Aikido will work if executed correctly from a standing, no momentum (any words you want to call it) practice situation , I would call it raw technique but thats my words,I have never seen or met an individual capable of putting Aikido into words. Like those scratch and sniff stickers...Aikido is feel an know...lol.

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Old 07-20-2008, 08:07 AM   #145
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Push "from behind" vice "float"
"soft energy" vice "mechanical advantage"

perhaps words are getting in the way.

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Old 07-20-2008, 08:24 AM   #146
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Yes words are cheap

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Old 07-21-2008, 02:13 AM   #147
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Quickest way to piss someone off... especially someone larger than you...

Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.
- your right it probably will piss him off, but remember in a real situation he is already pissed off.

- therefore you are not relying on atemi...its just an 'extra' to 'make sure'. Its not depended on, but a support as back up - I suppose that is what my sensei would say. (Trust me, his technique is not poor at all, just a different philosophy on things. And again, since they speak Hungarian Im not able to nicely translate the exact details of the whys and why nots - except for what I already did.)

Again, I respect the fact that people do not want to rely on atemi as it is seen as either not needed or showing weak technique.

But I would say that in the case of my sensei its given as an option to practice so you can fluidly make the choice in any given situation...not to rely upon, and the emphasis is always on good technique.

Peace

dAlen

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Old 07-22-2008, 09:57 AM   #148
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
Atemi is useful to know, but relying on it to make a technique work is poor technique.
Bingo. Besides, atemi is most effective after you have kuzushi. It's even better when you have them on the ground and they can't move their arms. If you think I'm not being "aiki" about this, please check out the Noma dojo photos and how OSensei is positioned at the end of almost every technique.

We don't shy away from atemi, but it gets frustrating to talk about because, like Ignatius mentions, most people think of atemi as simplistic strikes added on top of or around an aikido technique. Our movements simply *are* atemi. By that I mean that the movements we do are basically all strikes and most impact into uke's core to some extent. The way most people use it is a kind of pantomime of a strike, often at the beginning of a scenario, again to "soften" the attacker. My biggest issue with this is that it stacks the deck in favor of nage. After all, uke is often restricted to one big dumb lunge attack. So uke makes a big solid *single* attack, and nage gets to jump off the line, strike them three times and then lay on a big ol' kotegaeshi. The problem is that as soon as someone starts striking like that at me, I'm going to start deflecting and striking back. Now we're sparring. That's cool, we can do that, but you're not going to get kotegaeshi on me that way...

Here's a great video to help show what I'm talking about. I'm sure William will enjoy it too. So pay attention to what parts of Kondo Sensei's movements are strikes or cuts in the paired practice with swords. Basically everything he does is a strike, a cut or a positioning move in order to strike or cut. Although this is Daito Ryu, this is really the genius of Nishio Sensei's system as well. Now watch his movements in the open hand portion. Many things that don't look like atemi (particularly the initial entry) simply *have* to be done as atemi for aiki to happen. This is a lot harder to see in the video of me and Jeremy that I posted, but it's very much the case.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-24-2008, 08:49 AM   #149
Wawadewa
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1
United Kingdom
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Aaah, Kote Gaeshi, what a great and simple technique, yet so full of possibilities. It's all in the hips! Usually resistance may push me to use a diffent technique, based on the way uke will try to get away.

My sensei, emphasises the fact that there are no perfect techniques in Aikido but that the use of each technique will evolve with the resisting / furious / drunk 'uke' to ensure his/her safety and that no harm will be done.

We also run randoori sessions of reversing a technique. ie I do an irimi nage on Uke but Uke pulls out at a strategic moment and reverses the technique on me, we carry on with different techniques until someones develops enough ki to do a technique perfectly, out of which, escape is impossible, regardless of your resistance or knowledge.

A possible answer to this post is instead of making it work, why not let it evolve?

Last edited by Wawadewa : 07-24-2008 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:18 AM   #150
Basia Halliop
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 711
Canada
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
One thing I will say is that if your dealing with a large guy - atemi probably is necessary to offset him.
I'm not sure I understand this statement. Can't your 'large guy' use atemi too, presumably harder than you can while as likely as not being less hurt by a strike of equal force? Doesn't the bigger person have an even bigger advantage in striking than in other approaches? So how does it 'offset' anything unless his hands are tied behind his back?

Not to go against atemi, just not clear to me where the logic in this particular argument is going.
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