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Old 07-15-2008, 10:46 AM   #51
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To Shaun and Ron

I think that this video will do nothing but cause serious people to doubt.
Hi Dan,

Well of course, you are entitled to your opinion. As for me, speaking from my own experience, a little doubt is always a good thing to keep in the back of one's mind. Would you not agree? While I may not be the most serious martial artist on the planet, I am very sincere. Now if you ask me, sincerity and skepticism go a long way towards balancing each other over time. I have chosen not to comment on the video, itself. As such, I am thoroughly enjoying the varied display of people talking out their pie holes about which they know less than nothing.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think its worth noting that there are men of power who would NEVER allow the sort of things displayed in this video.
I think it is important to mention the context within which the video demonstration takes place. From what I can tell it seems as though it is a demonstration for some teen television show. That being the case, I believe inspiring young minds by planting a seed is certainly more valuable than showing them that you can break someone's arm using Aikido techniques. Wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...Their control is through connection, or power release through contact. No cooperation is needed or asked.
I agree. I stated so using very clear language as to that fact in my last post. But I believe that my viewpoint and yours as to how "connection, or power release through contact" relates to O-Sensei's Aikido versus how it relates to DRAJ, (or whatever model it is with which you identify) is very different. This goes back to my posts regarding Gan-Sa-Tan-Riki, which readers are free to find on this site. Suffice it to say that in my opinion, based upon what you have written on this site about Aikido versus Aiki...do, and your questions, statements and observations about the video in post #1 that you are currently only seeking proficiency/mastery of levels Tan through Sa. Of course, I am certainly open to the fact that you may be hiding some other level of knowledge that you have, or of which you have come in contact with, but have yet to find access to.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why would he do this stuff?
I want to make two things clear. First, I do not speak for Abe Sensei. Only Abe Sensei could answer your question. I would suggest you ask him directly. Second, If there is one thing I have learned in martial arts it is that while I might venture a guess as to what it is I am currently learning, which direction I am heading, where I will end up, or why it is that Abe Sensei did, said, didn't do or didn't say this, that or the other thing, I would most certainly be right and wrong some percentage of the time. Based upon this, I let him lead and don't try to second guess anything.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is nothing more than over exaggerated flinch response, coupled with ukemi skills.
Actually, that is about as far from the truth as could be possible. My suggestion would be to pack a bag, get on a plane and find out for yourself.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not to take away from Mr. Abe. I am not addressing his purported skills. Let's say they are everything claimed. Having power-has not one thing to do with ukes training to be sooo overly sensitive that they throw themselves through the air with "perceived" movement from him. It's not martially relevant in any way and the degree of sensitivity displayed by the uke?
I appreciate your respectful tone. I also completely agree with your point about "power" whatever that may actually be, and its causal/effect relationship with Uke. As to how, where or when sensitivity to the smallest of movements could be seen as anything else than "martially relevant, well, let's just say that I could not disagree with you more on this subject. I will say more about that in response to some of your other points.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Will not get you even one step closer to power and aiki then if you never trained at all.
Power and Aiki... hmmm? Again, while we may both be training to bring about an apparent similar result, it is the differences that I will continue to point at in my posts. I equate the differences in this manner - we each want to exert complete control over our surroundings. With this in mind you seek to up the volume on power and aiki as you define them. You are extending yourself outwards, rooted in internals, ground connection and the like. All good stuff, about which I am sure you could teach me many things. I hope to have the opportunity to feel what it is that you have been working on at some point. As for me, I am not trying to gain control over my circumstances with these things, as important as they are. Why? Because there will always be someone who is more powerful, or has better Aiki. So, what else is there that would preclude any opportunity to be outdone by another? Well, if one asks themselves this question and meditates on the answer long enough you come to know that it is the direct opposite of power release and aiki-age. With such a thought and a sincere desire to discover what that is and just how to do that, I would imagine that one would need to find a teacher to guide them. Wouldn't you agree Dan?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And why would you spend a ten year curve to increase your sensitivity to his movements -to be thrown?
Its a good question Dan. I would be surprised if you didn't already know the answer to that question. I like the curve symbolism. It is a great visual to use when describing one's martial path. As to your question, I ask a questions, "How long did it take Einstein to come up with ?" Did he just sit down at a desk and plug away at it until he came up with a solution? No, he opened himself up to other things which peripherally enhanced his ability to move forward. I choose Einsteing and his formula because they are the most relevant - think black holes and their effect on light - one can see that it is because matter and energy are one and the same that one will inflict its will on the other. However, those are meditative concepts and for another thread, perhaps.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would have imagined that 3 or 4 years out the training would have caused the opposite effect. Why didn't the sensitivity to his movements start to preclude, and make it far more difficult for most any attempt at throwing you.
Another great point Dan. I think it took slightly less time in fact to see that exact result, only not with Abe Sensei, just with everyone else.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Again I'm not making any comment about Abe sensei's power at all. I am just offering that there is a distinction between having "it" at any level and "what" those guys are choosing to "do together." Which has not one thing to do with having...it.
When Takemusu Aiki is present, there is no "together" - conceptually two things that are joined - rather there are no things at all. It is the difference in thinking how 1 differs from 2 versus how 1 differs from 0. Mathematically the answer is always 1 in each case. However, the concept of zero is mathematically superior to the concept of either 1 or two. 1 and 2 are numbers. 0 is the opposite to infinity. When we talk about infinity we are talking about God. From a humanistic perspective it is like trying to understand the difference between the three sayings "God created man" "man created God" and "God created God." The first two, while maybe accurate at some level are dualistic in nature, and the third is, well... the superior truth when all is considered.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Since you both trained with him, can anyone state where an equal amount of time spent training structure, retained balance and intent would not be more beneficial then learning to dodge and throw yourself from a perceived hand signal?
Since the observation about what is being displayed is, in itself, flawed, any conclusions based upon said observations would be also flawed.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Was his regular training like this?
Yes and no. It depends on which training one attended. As I am very sure you are aware, there are various levels taught at every traditional dojo. What one learns at one level is countered at the next level. Interestingly, about six years into my training I was able to observe the rank and file testing. Low and behold kyu through dan training was straight out of Iwama. Truth is, I had never participated in any class that focused on basic waza. I thought they just didn't focus on that at all. I was both surprised at and amazed by how technically proficient the students were at basic waza. To see them performed at the 6th dan level was even more amazing as I would have sworn that they had never even trained in such a manner.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have dealt with real power before. Never once did I consider throwing myself as an option.
Well, there might be some reasons to get out of the way, say to avoid a sword, a horse, an arrow. But, once again Dan, that isn't what we are talking about. What we are alluding to is whether or not there is some level where one can not only not keep their balance, but that they are propelled with such efficiency of energy, such conservation of movement and with such a dramatic impact that one would be injured had he not spent as many years as it takes to be proficient at taking ukemi at such a level when one was not expecting to have to do so at all because he was so surely convinced that he could not be thrown.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Was the whole video just one big goof? I heard and thought he was a more seriously skilled type.
Dan, not for nothing, but truth be told, it really wouldn't matter what I said here. I could tell you that Abe Sensei has a big "S" on his undershirt and a cape under his dogi, that he can bounce bullets off his eyeballs and blow out building fires with one breath. Even if that were true... would you believe me? Probably not. But, if it all were true, would you not only want to know about it, but be curious enough to want to experience it for yourself?

...?
...??
...???

So Dan, would you like for me to arrange for you to ask Abe Sensei, yourself?

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:07 PM   #52
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,

When Takemusu Aiki is present, there is no "together" - conceptually two things that are joined - rather there are no things at all. It is the difference in thinking how 1 differs from 2 versus how 1 differs from 0. Mathematically the answer is always 1 in each case. However, the concept of zero is mathematically superior to the concept of either 1 or two. 1 and 2 are numbers. 0 is the opposite to infinity. When we talk about infinity we are talking about God. From a humanistic perspective it is like trying to understand the difference between the three sayings "God created man" "man created God" and "God created God." The first two, while maybe accurate at some level are dualistic in nature, and the third is, well... the superior truth when all is considered.

.
Shaun,

Is there a specific culture or tradition where the above paragraph makes sense? It doesn't work mathematically. I'm trying to figure out how to interpret your remarks.

Sincerely,
Mark
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:15 PM   #53
ChrisMoses
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Its a good question Dan. I would be surprised if you didn't already know the answer to that question. I like the curve symbolism. It is a great visual to use when describing one's martial path. As to your question, I ask a questions, "How long did it take Einstein to come up with ?" Did he just sit down at a desk and plug away at it until he came up with a solution? No, he opened himself up to other things which peripherally enhanced his ability to move forward. I choose Einsteing and his formula because they are the most relevant - think black holes and their effect on light - one can see that it is because matter and energy are one and the same that one will inflict its will on the other. However, those are meditative concepts and for another thread, perhaps.
I would point out that Einstein published the paper that contained that formula (and 3 others) at the ripe old age of 26.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:43 PM   #54
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Shaun,

Is there a specific culture or tradition where the above paragraph makes sense? It doesn't work mathematically. I'm trying to figure out how to interpret your remarks.

Sincerely,
Mark
Hi Mark,

The simple stuff

Mathematically these two are the same, the difference being 1.
2-1=1
0+1=1

The less simple stuff

The idea of zero being "nothing" goes far beyond numbers. Culturally, religiously philosophically and martially, the ideas of approaching infinity (maximum centrifugal) and the approaching the void (maximum centripetal) may very well be argued as what drives the forces within the universe. Maybe even so far as what created the universe. There is a concept in macrobiotics where something becomes so yin (or yang), known as "super-yin" (or "super-yang") that it turns in on itself and becomes the opposite yin becomes yang, yang becomes yin. In terms of direction infinity becomes the void, or visa-versa. This is where extending out to infinity at the speed of light will allow one to be anywhere in space/time, including nowhere and never.

Here are some relevant quotes from Wikipedia:

Quote:
Wikipedia wrote:

Background Info
Records show that the ancient Greeks seemed unsure about the status of zero as a number. They asked themselves, "How can nothing be something?", leading to philosophical and, by the Medieval period, religious arguments about the nature and existence of zero and the vacuum. The paradoxes of Zeno of Elea depend in large part on the uncertain interpretation of zero.

Quotations

The importance of the creation of the zero mark can never be exaggerated. This giving to airy nothing, not merely a local habitation and a name, a picture, a symbol, but helpful power, is the characteristic of the Hindu race from whence it sprang. It is like coining the Nirvana into dynamos. No single mathematical creation has been more potent for the general on-go of intelligence and power. G.B. Halsted

Dividing by zero...allows you to prove, mathematically, anything in the universe. You can prove that 1+1=42, and from there you can prove that J. Edgar Hoover is a space alien, that William Shakespeare came from Uzbekistan, or even that the sky is polka-dotted. (See appendix A for a proof that Winston Churchill was a carrot.) Charles Seife, from: Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea

...a profound and important idea which appears so simple to us now that we ignore its true merit. But its very simplicity and the great ease which it lent to all computations put our arithmetic in the first rank of useful inventions. Pierre-Simon Laplace

The point about zero is that we do not need to use it in the operations of daily life. No one goes out to buy zero fish. It is in a way the most civilized of all the cardinals, and its use is only forced on us by the needs of cultivated modes of thought. Alfred North Whitehead

...a fine and wonderful refuge of the divine spirit--almost an amphibian between being and non-being. Gottfried Leibniz
Perhaps you had some specific ideas that you wanted to postulate to refute the ones I mentioned, or specific questions that you would like me to try and better address in a PM.

.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 07-15-2008, 12:59 PM   #55
DH
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Hi Dan,
So Dan, would you like for me to arrange for you to ask Abe Sensei, yourself?
.
Shaun
No thanks
I would be more happy to have him try and throw me either that way in particular or in any other way he thought possible. Hell I won't even fght back, I'll just use my meager understanding to try and absord and redirect, you know-try and keep up. I'll just be standing there and moving a little bit and seeing what power level and understanding of aiki he has-one on one. I don't want to hurt the guy or cause harm. As you can tell, I am just not buying it-even for one minute. I went down this road with some big shots before, from diverse arts. Does he come to the States?

Last edited by DH : 07-15-2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:02 PM   #56
DonMagee
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I just want to comment on something that came up on page one about going at a 90 year old man with 'resistance'.

I am the probably the most vocal supporter of resistance training on this forum. I spend the majority of my posts trying to convey information and dispell false theories on what resistance training is and how it can be used to benefit any physical activity. However, even I would not go full bore at a 90 year old man. I would respect him, go with the flow and take a fall. Does that mean his stuff doesn't work? No it means I am a in shape 28 year old guy with years of training. Beating a 90 year old man (without his expressed request) would show nothing. Of course if he asked me to try my hardest to punch him in the face, well, I guess it's his own fault if he isn't ready.

You do not need to fight your teacher to get better. Resistance training is not resistance against everything training. There is a time for both. There are great boxing coaches out there that do not get in the ring and spar their fighters to prove their teachings. My judo coach is a multiple national champion and 70 years old. I do not need to randori him to know what he is telling me is correct. I can see it though applying his teachings in my sparing against other students at my level and above me.

In short (do I really have a short?) Aliveness training is good to help integrate and expand your own personal abilities, not for testing the abilities of others.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:03 PM   #57
Josh Lerner
 
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
As for me, I am not trying to gain control over my circumstances with these things, as important as they are. Why? Because there will always be someone who is more powerful, or has better Aiki. So, what else is there that would preclude any opportunity to be outdone by another? Well, if one asks themselves this question and meditates on the answer long enough you come to know that it is the direct opposite of power release and aiki-age. With such a thought and a sincere desire to discover what that is and just how to do that, I would imagine that one would need to find a teacher to guide them.
I've never quite understood the argument that the pursuit of power is in some sense fruitless because there will always be someone more powerful than you. If you are training for the "direct opposite of power release and aiki-age", isn't it also the case that there will always be someone who is better at *that* than you are?

It seems to me that regardless of whether you are learning to use either power or a skill that "precludes any opportunity to be outdone by another", the same rules apply. I'm assuming that Abe sensei is better at that skill than you are; therefore, there is as much a skill gradient there as there would be with gaining power. The question goes from "how powerful can you become" to "how well can you learn to use the opposite of power", yes? If you are better at using your skill than I am at using internal power, you win. If I am better at using internal power than you are at using your skill, I win. The skills may be opposites, but the process is the same - you keep practicing to get better at something, which minimizes the chances that you are going to come across someone who is better at what they do than you are at what you do.

Josh
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:06 PM   #58
DonMagee
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

I just try to be the best I can be at everything I do. If there is someone out there who is better then me, and he wants to take my life, there is naught I can do about it.

I accept that I can lose. I embrace it. Then I learn to minimize it.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:09 PM   #59
lifeafter2am
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I just try to be the best I can be at everything I do. If there is someone out there who is better then me, and he wants to take my life, there is naught I can do about it.

I accept that I can lose. I embrace it. Then I learn to minimize it.
You mean to say that Aikidoka are not invincible?!?! Damn you Steven Segal!

"The mind is everything. What you think you become." - Siddhattha Gotama Buddha
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:10 PM   #60
Thomas Campbell
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
[snip]
Same stuff, different perspective:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA
Anyone that can do these skills could probably see that what this old dude in the vid is doing is genuine. Anyone else would probably call "faKeSoRZ!"

Does it mean he can pwn a young guy rushing at him like a screaming banshee? Probably not.
But how many times does it have to be reiterated that having these skills, and putting them to use in fighting, are two different things
Same stuff, different perspective? I'm not sure.

Wang Yongquan at age 83 (maybe 84), confined to a chair:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=6-_qR-sP9js

Wei Shuren, student of Wang Yongquan:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vaogb-2vdrU

Demonstrations of sensitivity (ting jin) and internal connection. The partner's body becomes your body. A useful step on the way. But it may not be the same way that Dan Harden describes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlMC6gUoM&NR=1

Same stuff, different perspective? I think Akuzawa's "stuff" is closer to what Dan writes about than the taiji or bagua demonstrations. The methods the old Chinese gentlemen are showing tend to discuss how to directly affect the 'yi,' or intent + awareness, of the partner/opponent--leading it, tricking it, perhaps taking advantage of wired-in human reflexes relating to standing upright in gravity, perhaps playing with mirror-neuron systems or other elements of proprioception and "body maps" in the brain--the same stuff--maybe, but with a markedly different emphasis.

Akuzawa feels like someone in a passing roller coaster has suddenly grabbed you and taken you along for the ride.
Akuzawa is the roller coaster. Older Chinese gentlemen demonstrating the skills shown in the first couple of clips tend to lure you into the roller coaster car by holding the door open for you--they just don't get in with you.

Putting this to use in fighting?

To even consider that, you need to have the internal connection skills in the first place, to begin to feel what's possible.

Feeling people who can demonstrate this skill can be an inspirational first step to engaging in the training.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:11 PM   #61
DH
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

He Josh
I agree totally
It seems many assume 'power" to be a type of fixed strength to go through people. That is only one small portion of power. I could argue the opposite as well, having power to stand there and not receive much direct power as possible and be able to redirect it while retaining a higher percentage of retained balance without stress.
you can stress the balance of most people with relative ease, then use directed force to undo them. Most I have met are simply undone when meeting the guys out there who's centers they cannot touch while they are moved all around. that level of sensitivity and softness can be ghosty soft, fleeting and hard to find or hit you like and anvil and crush you. So power is not a single entity. It is myriad, it is power in use.
Having great body conditioning for internal power- leads to aiki. Or you could say "is aiki" if you were trying to be short.
In my view you can have the former without the later but you cannot have the later without the former.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:14 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Don, excellent post.

Best,
Ron (are you injured again? Or just bored on judo.com )

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:16 PM   #63
Aikibu
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I just want to comment on something that came up on page one about going at a 90 year old man with 'resistance'.

I am the probably the most vocal supporter of resistance training on this forum. I spend the majority of my posts trying to convey information and dispell false theories on what resistance training is and how it can be used to benefit any physical activity. However, even I would not go full bore at a 90 year old man. I would respect him, go with the flow and take a fall. Does that mean his stuff doesn't work? No it means I am a in shape 28 year old guy with years of training. Beating a 90 year old man (without his expressed request) would show nothing. Of course if he asked me to try my hardest to punch him in the face, well, I guess it's his own fault if he isn't ready.

You do not need to fight your teacher to get better. Resistance training is not resistance against everything training. There is a time for both. There are great boxing coaches out there that do not get in the ring and spar their fighters to prove their teachings. My judo coach is a multiple national champion and 70 years old. I do not need to randori him to know what he is telling me is correct. I can see it though applying his teachings in my sparing against other students at my level and above me.

In short (do I really have a short?) Aliveness training is good to help integrate and expand your own personal abilities, not for testing the abilities of others.
Wow...Thanks Don...I could not have said this any better. I was about to post something like this myself.

In the old Dojo Crashing Days The Tradition is You did not get to waltz up and challange the Sensei You had to deal with his junior then senior students first...If you wanted to test that Dojo's technical acumen

Some posted that vid of the Chinese 94 year old man demonstrating his awesome IMA Skills and I did not see one Aikidoka post the desire to attack him to prove his technique...

Here's ABE Sensei having fun and sharing his knowledge with a curious outsider and some folks want to dis him for it...

With all due respect...Meet me at the Dojo.

William Hazen
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:20 PM   #64
DH
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Don
Asking would be a waste of time. There are levels of resistance that are profound and refined and not gross resistance. What do you think I was offering to do? I'm a gentleman. The former-is a trained skill that is demonstrable and obviously different than a 28 yr old going after a 90 yr old guy. Come on guy.
There are easy and small finite tests, larger tests, static and moving tests, and then while I am a lowly mudansha in Aikido I can fly and move quite well. So offering a shomen or a wrist grab, or just standing there and seeing if he can "suggest" I fall, can be a pleasant way to spend an afternoon for both parties. In fact I'd be willing to bet no one even breaks a sweat.
That type of training is empty and requires conditioned responses or it will not work. It is that simple.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:25 PM   #65
Shany
 
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

i wonder if he can dodge a punch from me when he does the 'kicking your ass with KI' thingi ...
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:26 PM   #66
DH
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Some posted that vid of the Chinese 94 year old man demonstrating his awesome IMA Skills and I did not see one Aikidoka post the desire to attack him to prove his technique...
And outside of your inflammatory remark where did you see that here? Inflating comments are rarely productive in a discussion.
The 94 yr old guy was doing small tests and display of skill involving........touching and grabbing.
No one was flying through the air by a hand signal.
Lets see I saw a video of Chinese guy who was in his 70's that was interesting. I went to meet him too. He had real power was not afraid to show it and delvered. In fact he delighted in it. There was no whining..and no "fighting" either. Though he did try a bit.
tests William...tests. What part of two posts did you miss?
Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Here's ABE Sensei having fun and sharing his knowledge with a curious outsider and some folks want to dis him for it...
With all due respect...Meet me at the Dojo.
William Hazen
Well actually it was a given that it was a goof till others said yeah...he does train that way too. By and large the discussionwas more that that ypt of training we have all seen before is empty. Shaun chose to defend it as relevent.
There is nothing personal here.

Last edited by DH : 07-15-2008 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:47 PM   #67
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

There is nothing personal here.
Believe it or not...My post was not meant to be personal either and was not solely directed at you...

But since you mentioned it. I would love to have a visual point of referance from you personally; So that I may better understand the points you are trying to make.

Take Care.

William Hazen
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Old 07-15-2008, 01:59 PM   #68
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
I've never quite understood the argument that the pursuit of power is in some sense fruitless because there will always be someone more powerful than you. If you are training for the "direct opposite of power release and aiki-age", isn't it also the case that there will always be someone who is better at *that* than you are?
Hi Josh,

SO GLAD YOU ASKED!!!!! the simple answer is, "NO!" - I would say that your conclusion is based upon a "Western minded" method of analysis. This is not a case where we compare when I make you cry by hitting you and you make me cry by hitting me harder. We know where that will lead us. This is more of a case where you want to hit me, but I make you cry from loving you. Where might that lead us?

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
It seems to me that regardless of whether you are learning to use either power or a skill that "precludes any opportunity to be outdone by another", the same rules apply.
No!!!! Simply speaking, let's talk about peace for a moment. Imagine what it would look like if we tried as hard as we could and fought to the death. As a result one of us then died. You and yours would now have peace, right? Now imagine what it would look like if we tried as hard as we could to not fight at all. Instantly there would also be peace, peace of a very different sort. You see, while you may have viewed what I was talking about as opposites skills, they are not skills which are out to produce the same result at all. This is a categoric shift in thinking produced by the way of Aiki. I don't think that is in any way the same as what Dan is talking about when he talks about AIkido, or Aiki...do and how that relates to Power and Connection from his view of things.

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Old 07-15-2008, 02:07 PM   #69
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Don
Asking would be a waste of time. There are levels of resistance that are profound and refined and not gross resistance. What do you think I was offering to do? I'm a gentleman. The former-is a trained skill that is demonstrable and obviously different than a 28 yr old going after a 90 yr old guy. Come on guy.
There are easy and small finite tests, larger tests, static and moving tests, and then while I am a lowly mudansha in Aikido I can fly and move quite well. So offering a shomen or a wrist grab, or just standing there and seeing if he can "suggest" I fall, can be a pleasant way to spend an afternoon for both parties. In fact I'd be willing to bet no one even breaks a sweat.
That type of training is empty and requires conditioned responses or it will not work. It is that simple.
Let's See Abe Sensei practice with O'Sensei...O'Sensei performed many of the same "conditioned response" techniques late in his life on film...So several conclusions can be drawn from this simple premise

O'Sensei taught Abe Sensei and what O'Sensei was teaching is authentic
O'Sensei taught Abe Sensei and what O'Sensei was teaching was a series of not very good parlor tricks...

There are many many layers of this rhetorical fallacy as you know Dan so do we really need to parse them?

here's another one from my perspective as a dear reader... Rob Liberti whom I respect greatly and have started to develop a good friednship with says you're the real deal. I believe him

Shaun Ravens who has personally taught by Abe Sensei and is a great dude whom I have practiced with says Abe Sensei is the real deal and I believe him...

I am confused Why does this thread have to be like Thunderdome?

it is equally possible with regard to Internal Power

A. Both You and Abe Sensei are wrong
B. Both you and Abe Sensei are right
C. Abe Sensei is wrong and you are right
D.If Abe Sensei is wrong then O'Sensei is wrong because Abe Sensei learned from him
E. Abe Sensei is right and you are wrong
F. We're comparing Apples to Oranges
G. I have been hit on the head too many times with a surfboard

help me out here and the rest of the gentle readers.

William Hazen
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:10 PM   #70
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
Hi Josh,

SO GLAD YOU ASKED!!!!! the simple answer is, "NO!" - I would say that your conclusion is based upon a "Western minded" method of analysis. This is not a case where we compare when I make you cry by hitting you and you make me cry by hitting me harder. We know where that will lead us. This is more of a case where you want to hit me, but I make you cry from loving you. Where might that lead us?
Man Shaun you continue to blow me away with the right thing to say. thanks for this. A perfect expression of Aikido.

Now I really have to go to work. Yes even folks in Malibu have to work once in a while LOL

William Hazen
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:14 PM   #71
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post

Well actually it was a given that it was a goof till others said yeah...he does train that way too. By and large the discussion was more that that type of training we have all seen before is empty. Shaun chose to defend it as relevant.
There is nothing personal here.
Dan,

Pardon me, but I did no such thing. There are people in this thread who without any direct experience of anything even remotely close to what is happening in that video have decided that
  1. They know for sure what is going on there.
  2. They can lessen or even eliminate the value of it
  3. Point at others who may be seeking something very relevant and say they are wasting there time doing so.

I did not defend the "something" that you have dismissed. I pointed out that there may be "something" there that you
  1. Have yet to feel
  2. May have felt, but have yet to understand
  3. May understand, but have yet to accomplish
  4. May have accomplished, but have yet to master

Pointing out something that may, in fact be true is not defending some irrelevant sensitivity-based ukemi drills, far from it in fact.

By the way, I did not take your post personal at all, I think this is a very relevant discussion and being held at a fairly high level of respect in discourse.

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Old 07-15-2008, 02:14 PM   #72
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Shaun Ravens wrote: View Post
I would say that your conclusion is based upon a "Western minded" method of analysis.
This is a categoric shift in thinking produced by the way of Aiki. I don't think that is in any way the same as what Dan is talking about when he talks about AIkido, or Aiki...do and how that relates to Power and Connection from his view of things..
Actually it is and it is from my largely Western mindset as a Christian. I was attracted to Aikido for its stated goals. I left because I didn't see it being able to fulfill them. Actually I found DR and Koryu jujutsu, Judo and taiji far just as capable if not more so of completing Ueshiba's goal of peaceful resolution.

Now, I find Aiki to be the penultimate of of the potential for non fighting. I don't want to talk about me except to say I have stopped some rather interestingly capable people in without hurting them. There are many methods and means to neutralizing power without aggression Shaun. Aikido does not and never has had a corner on it.
Ueshiba got Aiki from Takeda, then caught on to using aiki in a way that could be less violent. Though he most certainly has been a violent man himself.
Practicing the physical form is but one aspect, and not the greatest.
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:22 PM   #73
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Pointing out something that may, in fact be true is not defending some irrelevant sensitivity-based ukemi drills, far from it in fact.

By the way, I did not take your post personal at all, I think this is a very relevant discussion and being held at a fairly high level of respect in discourse.

Hi Shaun I had that post up and didn't see all the other ones until later sorry.
I'm happy for the level of discourse too.
I missed what you were pointing out. Help me out here.

1. We are agreeing that no one is touching each other
2. Are you stating there is a force throwing someone?
3. Are you stating that the ukes are rolling involuntarily?
4. Are you stating that this will work on someone not pre-conditioned to respond?
5. Or are you stating that there is most certainly preconditioning, that there is no force and it is an exercise that will not work on just anyone, but it is good for your aikido training?
Thanks in advance
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:25 PM   #74
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Hi WIlliam
No thunderdome exists except in YOUR mind.
We're talking training method here guy...not fighting.
I'm starting to believe you about the surfbaord hitting your head too often :-)
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Old 07-15-2008, 02:26 PM   #75
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Actually it is and it is from my largely Western mindset as a Christian. I was attracted to Aikido for its stated goals. I left because I didn't see it being able to fulfill them. Actually I found DR and Koryu jujutsu, Judo and taiji far just as capable if not more so of completing Ueshiba's goal of peaceful resolution.
Fair enough, Dan. I would ask you to clarify how any of the peaceful resolutions of which you speak are like that of O-Sensei's Aikido. By the way, I am not saying that they are not, but I am curious to see things from your perspective.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Now, I find Aiki to be the penultimate of of the potential for non fighting. I don't want to talk about me except to say I have stopped some rather interestingly capable people without hurting them.
With love Dan? Or was it more with the lovely techniques of Aiki, I wonder?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
There are many methods and means to neutralizing power without aggression Shaun. Aikido does not and never has had a corner on it.
Unlimited, in fact.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ueshiba got Aiki from Takeda, then caught on to using aiki in a way that could be less violent. Though he most certainly has been a violent man himself.
Yes, Dan, quite correct, but from where I stand Aiki and Aikido are two very different things. From where I stand I think you might say that they are different versions of the same thing. Of course, I could be wrong about what you might say, or you could be wrong having said them.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Practicing the physical form is but one aspect, and not the greatest.
Amen, to that, brother! Amen, to that.

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