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Old 07-09-2008, 08:31 PM   #76
rob_liberti
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Thanks for the video. Good work. At 17-18 you seemed to lose your structure in your neck, but at second 19 you were all lined up again. Great physical recovery!

As far as wristy twisty questions - just curious, was nage covering his thumb with his palm? Did nage have the intention of like punching threw a target on your hand for the wrist crank? Can you try again like that if not? Maybe get him to focus on keeping your wrist above your elbow as well? How about try having nage go omote a bit more to turn your shoulder more forward and down?

I would imagine that you will STILL be able to avoid him ever being able to get your fingers to point to the ground - regardless of the leverage being applied to your wrist by someone who is not using similar structure.

(My opinion is that nage has a better chance if your arm is in front of you - and also nage would need to know how to bring you with the arm using the same structure you were using to resist. But I'm not ready for video to prove this yet.)

Rob
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Old 07-09-2008, 08:47 PM   #77
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Okay, so I decided to play around some with kote gaeshi. Nothing spectacular. But I video taped it and put it on YouTube. (Actually, there's two vids but the other one is still uploading).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXp_sl2VXTk

So, in this vid, we start from static, but I purposefully put myself off balance and I try to stay that way while nage (Brian) tries to complete kote gaeshi in some manner by moving around me.

Brian is putting a good bit into trying to take me down, but not going as far as jumping on my outstretched hand.

At the end, I sort of just uncoiled the internal energy and it caused Brian to take a forward roll -- something neither of us had expected to happen.

Anyway, enjoy my video debut.

Mark
Hi Mark! Nice video, thanks for posting it. You can really get an idea of some of the power you're able to generate.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:03 PM   #78
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Mark,

Yes, thanks for taking the time to post a video. Posting videos if people can keep things constructive and in perspective might go a long way to us being able to communicate better!

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Old 07-09-2008, 10:49 PM   #79
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Thanks Mark

It appeared to be very very basic but I enjoyed seeing you "in action"

William Hazen
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Old 07-09-2008, 11:08 PM   #80
Aikibu
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

After watching it again I would love to see what style of Kote Gaeshi you use with resistance both Omote and Ura

In ours there is an Atemi at the pressure point at the back of the jaw followed by "washing down" uke's arm with the knife edge of your hand using a washing the inside of the bowel sword cutting motion... if Uke still has his center then often hitting a second "pressure point" located in the nerve bundle inside the soft part of the elbow will make Uke "float" then simply continue to wash down the arm to the wrist. If when extending Ukes arm he still has his center (aka what you guys might mean by structure??? I'll have to experience it) then floating his elbow with yours twisting Uke's forearm towards your center often does the trick. Making Uke follow his fingers by using his own arm as an extension of your sword. At the point Uke's entire weight gathers in his wrist just tip his wrist over and... Voila! Kote Gaeshi. Also unlike the vid Nage keeps everything connected to his center and does not extend his arms and shoulders away from his center trying to "muscle" the wrist

In your video you seem to be the uke and if at the end point of Kote Gashi where I had your wrist if you still had your center I would have let go. LOL

Thanks again for providing a "baseline" for what you guys are expressing.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-09-2008 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:39 AM   #81
eyrie
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

@Mark,

1. I believe the OP asked about making kotegaeshi work against resistance - which your video, although quite informative, does not directly address.

2. It would be interesting from a discussion perspective if you could comment on what you are doing with uke's force on your wrist.

3. It would also be interesting if you could comment, if you were nage, how/what would you do against you as uke?

TIA

Ignatius
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Old 07-10-2008, 05:55 AM   #82
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
@Mark,

1. I believe the OP asked about making kotegaeshi work against resistance - which your video, although quite informative, does not directly address.
Hi Ignatius,
True. I didn't directly address this point in the original post. But, let me quote a section of that:

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
The fact is the average person wont know what your about to do...(plus so many factors would be against what they are doing...like punching them in the nose or hitting their hand to loosen up.) it even took them months to figure out to actively fight against kote Gaeshi. I have always went with it, as there is to much danger and getting your wrist dislocated - or the feeling that it will be.

So my point is simple.
When you are going for kotegaeshi, and someones hand is stiff as a board, and the guy is stronger than you...how do you 'break' the stiffness to get the bend needed for kote gaeshi?
Is there a pressure point?
My vid addresses that first quoted paragraph. That you can use structure to "resist" (you aren't really resisting anything. In fact, if you resist, it won't work) kote gaeshi and not get your wrist broken.

But, you are right. I don't directly address the second quoted paragraph. Indirectly, here's my logic thought. Using structure to "resist" a kote gaeshi attempt is much harder than the opposite -- If you have structure and are applying kote gaeshi. So, if you can do the harder part, then switching and making kote gaeshi work against resistance seems easier.

But, skill level plays a very important part. If both people have the same skill level structurally, it's going to be a stale mate, for the most part. Course, not many people have that kind of structure, so until then ... that's something that is fairly irrelevant. And if the jujutsu skills are very good, then that'll overcome someone with only basic structural skills.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
2. It would be interesting from a discussion perspective if you could comment on what you are doing with uke's force on your wrist.
That's a great question. It's almost a trick question, even. The simple answer like you'd get from Morpheus or the Oracle is, "There is no force on my wrist."

Okay, seriously. If my structure is working properly, there is no force felt on my wrist. None at all. If I find that a specific muscle group tenses (like shoulder area, forearm area, etc), then my wrist does feel force. How much force is felt depends on how much the muscles tense. Some people know that as "relax completely", only it's not really how most people define that phrase.

As for what I'm doing, structurally or internally? Trying to keep the six directions going. Especially when I'm leaning or bending backwards or whatnot. I have to have those going in my body to be a complete unit. If not, then arms or legs or such will have slack in them or in the main joints and that causes specific muscles to fire to try to compensate. That, in turn, leads to force being applied on the wrist, which as everyone knows, hurts.

I'm also allowing all that force that Brain (uke) is putting into his attempts to spiral through my wrist, up my arm, through my shoulder, and down into my lower back. It sort of gets stored there. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but for now, it works.

At the end, when Brian goes for his roll, all I'm doing is sending that stored energy back out to Brian.

Quote:
Ignatius Teo wrote: View Post
3. It would also be interesting if you could comment, if you were nage, how/what would you do against you as uke?

TIA
I'd quit.

Seriously, I work with another person, Chris. He's nearly the same skill level that I am. When we both have structure going and we try something like this, it's pretty much a stand still. Whoever can break the other's structure first typically gets into a better position. In our case, it causes the other person to take a step that he didn't want to take. That creates openings. Unfortunately, being nearly the same level, it's very hard to take advantage of those openings.

One important thing I'd note, overall, is that 1 year and 3 months ago, I wouldn't have been able to do any of this. This is progress made in just that time frame. And I consider it to be very, very basic structure. But in terms of how that structure is fitting into aikido ... it's making a world of difference.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:05 AM   #83
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks Mark

It appeared to be very very basic but I enjoyed seeing you "in action"

William Hazen
Thanks, William. And yes, I consider it to be very, very basic structural stuff.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
After watching it again I would love to see what style of Kote Gaeshi you use with resistance both Omote and Ura
At this point, I don't think it matters what style. Then again, this is basic stuff, so my views on that could change later.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
In ours there is an Atemi at the pressure point at the back of the jaw
Oh, speaking of atemi. The second vid shows Brian trying to use two atemi. Some people might think that because I'm just standing there (that's on purpose, btw. I just wanted to negate kote gaeshi; I didn't want to engage the attack or uke at all), I'm vulnerable to an atemi. But, having structure doesn't work like that. I'm not clamped down, rigid, and fighting to "resist" kote gaeshi. I'm actually mobile and fluid -- in a basic sense. No where near what I should be, but I'm just a beginner at this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
and... Voila! Kote Gaeshi. Also unlike the vid Nage keeps everything connected to his center and does not extend his arms and shoulders away from his center trying to "muscle" the wrist
I'm scheduled to be out in San Diego (downtown near the Convention Center) Nov 7th through the 15th. Maybe we can get together sometime while I'm out there?

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:20 AM   #84
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Thanks for the video. Good work. At 17-18 you seemed to lose your structure in your neck, but at second 19 you were all lined up again. Great physical recovery!

As far as wristy twisty questions - just curious, was nage covering his thumb with his palm? Did nage have the intention of like punching threw a target on your hand for the wrist crank? Can you try again like that if not? Maybe get him to focus on keeping your wrist above your elbow as well? How about try having nage go omote a bit more to turn your shoulder more forward and down?

I would imagine that you will STILL be able to avoid him ever being able to get your fingers to point to the ground - regardless of the leverage being applied to your wrist by someone who is not using similar structure.

(My opinion is that nage has a better chance if your arm is in front of you - and also nage would need to know how to bring you with the arm using the same structure you were using to resist. But I'm not ready for video to prove this yet.)

Rob
Hi Rob!

Hmmm ... well, let's see.

covering thumb? I don't think he was for most of it. He had a two hand grip with thumbs together, but I think he started out initially with his hand covering his thumb. But, when twisting and moving, I think he switched to thumbs together for better control.

Dunno about the punching through. There were various levels of force coming through. Try again? Probably not until after August.

And yeah, if the person isn't using similar structure, then it's hard to use leverage. But, I have no doubts that those more skillful than I in aikido could make kote gaeshi work at this point in time. I just don't have good structure yet.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:31 AM   #85
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA

With all due respect, I am pretty sure I can see the structure you guys are employing.

But your mechanical advantage can use some improvement. Little force can be applied when you are trying to do the work so far away from your center of gravity.

Neither can you make a good technique work by just applying force behind the point of contact.

Ideas for improvement. Try moving your center of gravity (COG) closer to the point of contact and behind uke's center of gravity so that you can push with your whole body rather than just apply force to the wrist. We are talking about improving mechanical advantage here.

Be aware, a COG does travel. If you can get a "float" going, you can track where the COG is moving towards. That is when you get behind it.

Now, if uke tries to "retreat" with his COG, well you need to follow his direction and pick a new angle or new technique.

Just my own ideas. But they do make for a lot less grinding and effort.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:05 AM   #86
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I might make another point regarding mechanical advantage. I notice that uke has relaxed to the point that there is no real connection between his humerus/clavicle/scapula. If this connection is not made, you are just twisting his forearm like a "wet rag". Neither can you affect his COG without that connection. Often when the torque is applied to the 20+ bones in the wrist rather than on the radius and ulna, uke can remain disconnected. There is just a lot of play in the wrist.

Here is a series of angles from an old tape of mine. Notice that my first angle assumes I screwed up, uke had retreated his arm as well as his COG, so I have to follow it. The rest of the angles are pretty much KG stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JQhiXRkw4

notice how close I keep my hands in relation to my own COG. Notice how I enter and get close to uke's COG. Can you see how I make his COG "float" through the humerus/clavicle/scapula connection. None of these techniques hurt uke's wrist. He probably did not even feel the wrist being torqued except in #3 angle in the second sequence that was done at speed. That was because I lost the humerus/clavicle/scapula connection and had to "whip" him a bit to regain it. My uke is a 4th dan in Tomiki in the above video. He has some pretty darn good structure.

Now here is another strategy that can undermine uke's structure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS9ghzkz9Lg

Finally, notice how all of these "mechanical advantage" ideas when applied with my personal structure (definitely not as good as it could be) acts out at full speed in KG style movements while on one foot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1G3A-ZGd1M

Thanks for the opportunity to share some personal ideas in my own journey...
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:29 AM   #87
rob_liberti
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

2 thumbs together is weaker than covering the thumb with the palm in my experience.

Chris, I agree with you that getting their center of gravity to move with you and the wrist is the way to go for real - and I posted the same sentiment myself. But what I'm confused about is why if you know some level of that kind of structure that you would be arguing leverage at all. Leverage isn't going to get their center of gravity moving with their wrist. You can draw them into your structure from the front or for the outstretched position you can do a "pure" weight transfer to break up their structure a bit and then draw them into your structure. And once that happens you'll have leverage on them, but focusing on the cart before the horse ain't gonna cut it.

Mark, not looking to pick on you, but the second video isn't selling it to me becuase it shows you dumping your center down your front a lot from seconds 9-16. Are you getting a lot of intention across your body to maintain resistance? I can't managae that very well unless I have my spine straighter.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-10-2008 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:53 AM   #88
MM
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

See this thread for replies regarding structure, etc.

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14771

Last edited by MM : 07-10-2008 at 07:54 AM. Reason: Different Topic, New Thread
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:55 AM   #89
rob_liberti
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Chris, in your seond video, second 42, "I come in really low and I rise like cookie doug"??? What did you say?

Rob
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:16 AM   #90
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
As far as wristy twisty questions - just curious, was nage covering his thumb with his palm? Did nage have the intention of like punching threw a target on your hand for the wrist crank? Can you try again like that if not? Maybe get him to focus on keeping your wrist above your elbow as well? How about try having nage go omote a bit more to turn your shoulder more forward and down?
The thing I noted was that at all times nage kept at the same or a slightly reduced radial distance -- i.e. still within uke's "sphere of power" defined by the radial sweep of his arm

Try it with nage departing or turning on the tangent to the radial sweep of your arm, rather than circling at the circumference of that constant (or reducing) radius.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:27 AM   #91
MM
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
The thing I noted was that at all times nage kept at the same or a slightly reduced radial distance -- i.e. still within uke's "sphere of power" defined by the radial sweep of his arm

Try it with nage departing or turning on the tangent to the radial sweep of your arm, rather than circling at the circumference of that constant (or reducing) radius.
For kote gaeshi with resistance, I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to from the vid?

"sphere of power"? At 8 through 11, I'm leaned over, on one foot, hand out to the side. If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it.

At 18, Brian attempts to drive into me and at 19, my arm is fully outstretched and he's trying to go out and down. Plus, my arm is way outside my center of power and to my side. I should have no strength at all, but after 19, notice my recovery and effect it has on Brian. Brian is at least 80 pounds heavier than I am.

Lastly, as I noted to Rob in the split thread I created. This isn't to cover all examples of kote gaeshi and resistance. But it is a starting point to discuss how to functionally resist and how to overcome that resistance.

Mark
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:33 AM   #92
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
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Chris, in your seond video, second 42, "I come in really low and I rise like cookie doug"??? What did you say?

Rob
I called the technique Uke Goshi.
In basic judo Uke Goshi (Kano's favorite technique) is done as if you are "stabbing uke's hips with a ice pick that is attached to yours. This creates the kuzushi.

But over time, I learned to apply Kano's sixth kata to the technique. This kata tends not to be studied that closely except in the higher ranks of judoka (IMO). It is the "wave principle" that acts like a "cam". Now my wave principle motion was refined by study of Yanagi Hara Ryu.

I barely pry up the uke (the refrigerator) any more. I just lift it 1/4 inch and then use the corner of the refrigerator as a pivot point with my whole body (structure) pushing from behind.

When a guy hides his COG, you still gotta get behind it to use the best mechanical advantage. You just cannot move a refrigerator with finesse with out (1) closeness of centers and (2) a caming motion.

I do the technique through the natural connection made by uke's retreating arm (and my hold upon the arm) rather than holding Gi lapels as in judo.

It is actually quite soft and surprising to uke when you do it with a small circle.
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Old 07-10-2008, 08:57 AM   #93
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Mark,

Thanks for the video. And thanks for this bit (emphasis, mine):

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
If my structure is working properly, there is no force felt on my wrist. None at all. If I find that a specific muscle group tenses (like shoulder area, forearm area, etc), then my wrist does feel force. How much force is felt depends on how much the muscles tense. Some people know that as "relax completely", only it's not really how most people define that phrase.

As for what I'm doing, structurally or internally? Trying to keep the six directions going. Especially when I'm leaning or bending backwards or whatnot. I have to have those going in my body to be a complete unit. If not, then arms or legs or such will have slack in them or in the main joints and that causes specific muscles to fire to try to compensate. That, in turn, leads to force being applied on the wrist, which as everyone knows, hurts.

I'm also allowing all that force that Brain (uke) is putting into his attempts to spiral through my wrist, up my arm, through my shoulder, and down into my lower back. It sort of gets stored there. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not, but for now, it works.
It has been written on these forums in various places that the one person wrist exercises should not just be for stretching the local wrist area, but as much of the whole body as possible. However another goal I believe, would be more in line with your quote above. It seems to me that practicing the interplay between nage/uke on yourself (your own wrists) is a good way to train in the response to a "resisting" kotegaeshi.

Thanks,
Adam
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Old 07-10-2008, 09:49 AM   #94
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

I'll chime in here too. Thanks for posting the videos, it always gives us something to talk about.

From my perspective, virtually everything that Nage does actually supports your structural integrity rather than allowing for kuzushi to occur. In that sense, I would say that there is no kotegaeshi present. That coupled with your own sense of working with whatever forces you feel (a "problem" in the first place, that of discernable feeling) gives you a solid advantage in the interaction.... interesting.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:10 AM   #95
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Man, the guys are gonna give me some #$%^ for this, but this video is already out there and it kind of applies...

So Jeremy and I did a quick video not long ago really as a part of a conversation with an Aikidoka down in Brazil. About the first 1/2 of this video deals with kotegaeshi, so it might be useful for this discussion.

Some notes to keep in mind while you watch:

- This is a quick informal video...

- I like Kevin's distinction he brought up between cooperation and compliance. While this video is slow and fairly simple, hopefully it's clear that we're cooperating in the way that Kevin outlined. Both Jeremy and I each make some mistakes during this thing, but because we're offering each other solid *reasonable* resistance/feedback, we're able to address those mistakes and learn from them. We're not messing with speed changes, but trying to stay within a consistent tempo (slow).

- In Larry's earlier post he outlined three possible ways to approach a technique like kotegaeshi, I think of the versions presented here to be most like the second (skeletal/commutive lock) but perhaps somewhere between the second and third possibilities he outlined (if I understood him correctly).

- An important note is that in both versions of the kotegaeshi we do here, the critical piece happens before the hand is grasped in a traditional kotegaeshi grip. That is to say that the initial kuzushi and tsukuri are what make the kotegaeshi work rather than a leverage against the joints or bones of the wrist. If you're having trouble making kotegaeshi work against resistance, you should back up and look at how you're getting to kotegaeshi and determine what's going wrong before you try to crank it on. Most likely, the problem is occurring earlier than you think.

- We're a mutt style. There's quite a few credited and uncredited influences in what we're doing here. It should be pretty clear at least where the source for a lot of this stuff is coming from, even to the casual observer. I am not clever enough to have come up with any of it on my own.

- This is not a display of crazy mad internal powah! I consider all of this stuff to be basic structure/strategy. It works better than it used to for me because of the Aunkai influence/practice, but this is not a demonstration of internal skilzz.

- Please note the movement of uke's neck and shoulders in the vid. Jer and I aren't hamming the 'snap' up. Hopefully this is clear in the instances where we screw up.

- Finally, **this is a quick informal video...**

Against my better judgment, here ya go.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:21 AM   #96
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Thanks, William. And yes, I consider it to be very, very basic structural stuff.
You're Welcome Mark.

Quote:
At this point, I don't think it matters what style. Then again, this is basic stuff, so my views on that could change later.
Well Hopefully we can get together in November as you suggested below. My birthday is November 11 and it would be a great birthday gift to spend the weekend in San Deigo (SAAAAN DIEEEGO SUUUPER CHARGERS! ) I can only hope I have a girlfriend to nuture my sore Aiki-Body.

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Oh, speaking of atemi. The second vid shows Brian trying to use two atemi. Some people might think that because I'm just standing there (that's on purpose, btw. I just wanted to negate kote gaeshi; I didn't want to engage the attack or uke at all), I'm vulnerable to an atemi. But, having structure doesn't work like that. I'm not clamped down, rigid, and fighting to "resist" kote gaeshi. I'm actually mobile and fluid -- in a basic sense. No where near what I should be, but I'm just a beginner at this stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sht2NLy7jvA
Again thanks for the 2nd vid...In both vids you and your partner are very static which is understandable given the basic nature your demonstration So the Atemi I see does nothing really. the footwork and handwork displayed in KG is not close to the way we execute it. Our KG is done with the idea of Nage holding a sword and Uke preventing him/her from cutting. We have variation based on if the sword is already drawn or not. KG is one of those techniques IMO that will never work in a static state Internal Power or not....Uke has to enter with serious intention and move. Otherwise the simple physics of KG will not develop and Nage cannot execute the technique.

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I'm scheduled to be out in San Diego (downtown near the Convention Center) Nov 7th through the 15th. Maybe we can get together sometime while I'm out there?
That would be awesome Mark...Perhaps you'll join me in visiting James Williams Dojo too. I have been 'threatening" to visit him since the Aiki-Expo in 2005 LOL I do need to get out there and visit some other folks it's good for the Aikido Soul.

Thanks again Mark for putting yourself in the spotlight to provide a baseline for this great thread.

William Hazen
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:24 AM   #97
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
"sphere of power"? At 8 through 11, I'm leaned over, on one foot, hand out to the side. If that's a sphere of power in aikido circles, I've never seen it.
Nope. He is still within it and thus you have control (if you have the means to use it -- which you quite obviously have the goods to do)
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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
.... At 18, Brian attempts to drive into me and at 19, my arm is fully outstretched and he's trying to go out and down.
If he drives in (compression) or steps back (tension) you can compensate, and reorienting radially really does little of anything. Taking the tangent is neither wholly tension nor wholly compression but involves a lateral shear at the connection, with both stresses together creating a whole-body torsion -- at the same time as a lateral shift of the CG.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:36 AM   #98
Aikibu
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Man, the guys are gonna give me some #$%^ for this, but this video is already out there and it kind of applies...

So Jeremy and I did a quick video not long ago really as a part of a conversation with an Aikidoka down in Brazil. About the first 1/2 of this video deals with kotegaeshi, so it might be useful for this discussion.

Some notes to keep in mind while you watch:

- This is a quick informal video...

- I like Kevin's distinction he brought up between cooperation and compliance. While this video is slow and fairly simple, hopefully it's clear that we're cooperating in the way that Kevin outlined. Both Jeremy and I each make some mistakes during this thing, but because we're offering each other solid *reasonable* resistance/feedback, we're able to address those mistakes and learn from them. We're not messing with speed changes, but trying to stay within a consistent tempo (slow).

- In Larry's earlier post he outlined three possible ways to approach a technique like kotegaeshi, I think of the versions presented here to be most like the second (skeletal/commutive lock) but perhaps somewhere between the second and third possibilities he outlined (if I understood him correctly).

- An important note is that in both versions of the kotegaeshi we do here, the critical piece happens before the hand is grasped in a traditional kotegaeshi grip. That is to say that the initial kuzushi and tsukuri are what make the kotegaeshi work rather than a leverage against the joints or bones of the wrist. If you're having trouble making kotegaeshi work against resistance, you should back up and look at how you're getting to kotegaeshi and determine what's going wrong before you try to crank it on. Most likely, the problem is occurring earlier than you think.

- We're a mutt style. There's quite a few credited and uncredited influences in what we're doing here. It should be pretty clear at least where the source for a lot of this stuff is coming from, even to the casual observer. I am not clever enough to have come up with any of it on my own.

- This is not a display of crazy mad internal powah! I consider all of this stuff to be basic structure/strategy. It works better than it used to for me because of the Aunkai influence/practice, but this is not a demonstration of internal skilzz.

- Please note the movement of uke's neck and shoulders in the vid. Jer and I aren't hamming the 'snap' up. Hopefully this is clear in the instances where we screw up.

- Finally, **this is a quick informal video...**

Against my better judgment, here ya go.
Wow...IMO very good basic stuff and actually Chris your KG is very close to how we approach it. Everything connected to center, position, use of the elbow, Irimi, about the only thing we do defferent is washing the arm and leading the fingers by cutting with Ukes Arm rather than pushing down on the arm...

Thanks for Sharing Chris! I have class tonight so I am going to get one of my junior students to hook me up with the You Tube thing hopefully!

William Hazen
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:40 AM   #99
Aiki1
 
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Man, the guys are gonna give me some #$%^ for this, but this video is already out there and it kind of applies...
Thanks for posting it, I find it Very interesting. I Rarely see Aikido that pays that much attention to actual Kuzushi. Great.

Quote:
- In Larry's earlier post he outlined three possible ways to approach a technique like kotegaeshi, I think of the versions presented here to be most like the second (skeletal/commutive lock) but perhaps somewhere between the second and third possibilities he outlined (if I understood him correctly).
I think it's closer to the "third way" per se than you may feel. There are solid classical principles here that as I said, I don't usually see.... In my style the dimensions of "internal skills" and Ki come into play a lot, but there are some real similarities here....

Quote:
- An important note is that in both versions of the kotegaeshi we do here, the critical piece happens before the hand is grasped in a traditional kotegaeshi grip. That is to say that the initial kuzushi and tsukuri are what make the kotegaeshi work rather than a leverage against the joints or bones of the wrist. If you're having trouble making kotegaeshi work against resistance, you should back up and look at how you're getting to kotegaeshi and determine what's going wrong before you try to crank it on. Most likely, the problem is occurring earlier than you think.
Exactly. Well put. This is one of the reasons Aikido isn't about technique, the technique is simply an end result of a more subtle process....

Quote:
- We're a mutt style. There's quite a few credited and uncredited influences in what we're doing here. It should be pretty clear at least where the source for a lot of this stuff is coming from, even to the casual observer. I am not clever enough to have come up with any of it on my own.
What are your influences? I see some things I've seen from Don Angier.

Larry Novick
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Old 07-10-2008, 10:43 AM   #100
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Re: Making Kote Gaeshi Work - With Resistance

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Larry Novick wrote: View Post
I'll chime in here too. Thanks for posting the videos, it always gives us something to talk about.

From my perspective, virtually everything that Nage does actually supports your structural integrity rather than allowing for kuzushi to occur. In that sense, I would say that there is no kotegaeshi present. That coupled with your own sense of working with whatever forces you feel (a "problem" in the first place, that of discernable feeling) gives you a solid advantage in the interaction.... interesting.
Hi Larry,

Thanks for participating. I'm somewhat confused by part of your post, though. In the vid from 7 to 11, I'm tilted to the side, on one foot, and my hand is outside my center. I'm not seeing your point about how that would support my structural integrity? Granted, I'm doing something internally to keep my structure, but I definitely know that if I had not been doing that, I would have gone down.

In the sense that my "structure" (internal) isn't broken, I'd agree that there was no kuzushi. In the sense that my physical structure wasn't broken, well, I'm on one foot, sideways, with my arm stretched out. Can't get any more broken physically than that.

Thanks,
Mark
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