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Old 07-03-2008, 05:07 PM   #1
clwk
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Controlling Violence Without Harm [was: Using Daito Ryu's Aiki Without Harm]

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I'll be willing to betcha over which methods offers the greater potential for control over another humans violent actions without causing harm.
Dan, I was waiting for a reply to my response, but I realized you probably assumed it was a joke -- since that was the note on which I entered the conversation.

My more serious question concerns the extent to which you mean 'without causing harm'. I understand what you mean as a somewhat rhetorical expression -- the more so if the emphasis is on the 'potential'. I probably agree that the methods you use have 'greater potential' for that outcome than many highly technique-oriented approaches. That having been said, I don't actually know what you do.

What I wanted to know is: do you, personally, feel that you can take 'control over other humans violent actions without causing harm'? I can accomplish this with my two-year-old, as long as he is not being *too* violent (so far so good), but I wouldn't nearly trust myself to do so with a trained adult. If you *can* do that, then that is very impressive. If you just hold it up as an ideal, I understand that too. Many people hold it up as an ideal, so I am just trying to understand the extent to which you are saying you can actually accomplish it. My general feeling from much of what you have written is that you are saying you can. Please accept my apology if I have misunderstood. Is that what you were proposing we bet about?

Regards,
Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-03-2008, 06:17 PM   #2
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

I can field this as I already posted this exact topic on a different thread in the past. It is my impression after having worked with him that one trained in that way can much more realisticaly take control of another adult as if they were a 2 year old (because the power differential is about the same).

I also find that Dan is working on is how to deal with other people similarly trained. That makes him farily unique in the scope of things.

Rob
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Old 07-04-2008, 01:03 AM   #3
clwk
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I can field this as I already posted this exact topic on a different thread in the past.
No offense, Rob, but can you? Dan stated a willingness to wager. Now it might well have been a rhetorical flourish, but *I* would bet you don't manage his purse.

Quote:
It is my impression after having worked with him that one trained in that way can much more realisticaly take control of another adult as if they were a 2 year old (because the power differential is about the same).
I understand and accept the principle, but you are exaggerating. I work with horses, and they can't overpower me to the extent I could my two-year-old. I have no problem with the general sentiment, but it *is* possible to muddy the waters with exaggeration. It need not be malicious exaggeration either. What do you think personally: does the exaggeration of certain aspects of what should reasonably be expected from given training methods sometimes mislead? Based on your extensive posting, I would guess you would say, "Yes, the promise held out by some training paradigms can mislead those unqualified to judge them yet." I am open to correction.

Quote:
I also find that Dan is working on is how to deal with other people similarly trained. That makes him farily unique in the scope of things.
Well, he's either unique or he's not. Can you clarify which it is? Personally, I don't think Dan would claim to be unique -- which is why I'm not sure you speak for him.

Going back to my real question: you say (and I believe you completely) that Dan is 'working on' how to do this. Dan is 'willing to bet . . . which methods offer the greater potential'. So my question was whether he can actually demonstrate that his methods can accomplish what he says they can -- and with such clear superiority over all other methods. It's not that I disagree with the general thrust of Dan's points. I don't. But he did throw down a challenge, so I just want to understand what he is actually claiming. For example, I don't doubt that Dan can beat the crap out of me -- but I'm not sure he can do it without hurting me. It's not something I really want to test though, if you see what I mean. Hell, if I could win bets just by getting beat up, I wouldn't need a day job.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-04-2008, 01:59 AM   #4
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Well, first I have a 4 year old who might swing wild sometimes and I've picked him up and calmed him down without hurting him.

I can say that I've had my body completely taken over by what Dan was doing - so that starts to make the impression.

But I was skeptical myself about how well that would work on a well trained martial artists beyond myself.

So, I brought the strongest and best one I knew with me one of the visits - who I saw completely dominated. (all in good fun - but the power differential was plainly obvious to all). That friend continues to come back like I do to learn.

I've been martial arts long enough to know who is good and who sucks. It literally occured to me on my own that someone who developed such skills would - in general - command a power differential over most people that would be similar to what I have over my own child where I can stop him from hurting me and not hurt him in the process.

Of course I am not Dan. And I have not been authorized to speak for him. However the premise of the thread is for people who have trained with him to provide their feedback and give their impressions. Dan repeatedly wrote things like "ask them". Since he obviously reads this thread, I would assume he will certainly chime in if I overstate something so I'm not feeling like I'm taking some big risk here.

My experience(s) with Dan left me with the impression that one who is engaging with Dan will get fairly dominated fairly quickly - and the power differential would be similar to that between an adult and a child. And I posted that myself in a different thread, so I felt it appropriate to respond to your question about that exact idea.

I'm 100% certain that there are SOME people out there well trained in external martial arts that could have a much closer fight with Dan say like 70% to Dan and 30% to them. (The friend I brought maybe being more in that category.) Fine, no one is claiming indestructable and undefeatable. Dan often writes that he is still just beginning to learn this stuff himself.

Regarding "fairly unique". Well I dish out citations from the sematic police myself, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one. Dan teaches anti-aiki. As far as I know, that is his term, and his study. Which is unique. However, it would be plausable that this kind of aspect is done to some degree by some of the rare others who also work these skills. So I qualified unique. There are levels of infinity in math, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to say "fairly unique". Call it poetic license.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-04-2008 at 02:05 AM.
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:03 AM   #5
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob, thanks for the reply.
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Well, first I have a 4 year old who might swing wild sometimes and I've picked him up and calmed him down without hurting him.
I know, I know. But 'calming him down' when you're his dad is different than if he was really freaking out and trying to get you. That's part of what I was saying. I really hope neither you nor I ever experiences 'real physical aggression' from our children, whatever age.

Quote:
I can say that I've had my body completely taken over by what Dan was doing - so that starts to make the impression.
I am entirely curious about this 'completely taken over'. I am not being disingenuous. For example, while you are in this state of being completely taken over, could Dan make you pick up an object on the table next to you without using verbal commands? Like I said, I can understand a certain (high) level of 'unexpected control' over another person. 'Completely taken over' is something else. It smacks of exaggeration, but I just don't know. That's why I'm asking and giving you and/or Dan a chance to clarify -- rather than assume these statements are exaggerated. I can see how you might feel completely taken over if you had never before felt whatever Dan does, but if you think you *were* completely taken over, it *might* say more about you than about Dan.

Quote:
But I was skeptical myself about how well that would work on a well trained martial artists beyond myself.
Doesn't that imply that before you met Dan you were well-trained, though? If it's true that what he taught you was the foundation required to make your art work; and if that foundation was utterly foreign to you; were you really well-trained at that time?

Quote:
So, I brought the strongest and best one I knew with me one of the visits - who I saw completely dominated. (all in good fun - but the power differential was plainly obvious to all). That friend continues to come back like I do to learn.
I don't doubt it, and I don't doubt that Dan is a very powerful, well-rounded martial artist. That has been obvious to me for a long time from reading what he and others write. I wanted to be clear about that.

Quote:
I've been martial arts long enough to know who is good and who sucks. It literally occured to me on my own that someone who developed such skills would - in general - command a power differential over most people that would be similar to what I have over my own child where I can stop him from hurting me and not hurt him in the process.
I do understand that principle. I am actually trying to look closely at this 'without harm' clause. That is, in my opinion, an incredibly high bar. It's a great goal for some situations, and probably impossible in others. So my ears perked up the same way they would if someone told me they had a perpetual motion machine. It might be a supremely efficient generator, but 'perpetual motion' puts it in another class. What I was trying to understand is whether Dan is encouraging people on with the language of 'without harm'. Now, I understand very well why he would say this, and in the general conversation it doesn't bother me. But remember, he said this to me directly -- implying that what he does accomplishes this goal enough better than whatever I might have in mind that he was willing to bet on it. I'm not a big better, but I'll take a sucker bet if someone walks into it. I'm just trying to figure out exactly what it was Dan said he was 'willing to bet' about. If it was just a figure of speech fine, but that's what I am asking about. I don't usually offer to make bets exactly because I don't like to bet.

To put it even more plainly, Dan has drawn a distinction between AIkido(™) and Aiki...do (I think I got all that right.) It seems like Dan's claim is one that belongs more to the Aikido(™) category -- even if Aiki...do facilitates the general skill. I would think Aiki...do would take a broader view -- one that allowed the possibility of giving someone a 'broken everything'. That's why I highlighted Dan's post originally. I *appreciated* that he was including it in his rant about Aiki...do. For him to turn around and offer to school me in 'without harm' -- for appreciating the other side of the coin -- just seemed incongruous. I think they *are* two sides of the same coin, and I would probably be willing to bet that coin if I could figure out *what the proposed bet might be*.

Quote:
Of course I am not Dan. And I have not been authorized to speak for him.
That's not entirely given. I do remember you saying that you might take on a rôle as his secretary for dealing with others. I am not to know whether that has happened or not. As I said, I would have bet against it though.

Quote:
However the premise of the thread is for people who have trained with him to provide their feedback and give their impressions.
I thought it was for people who had trained in Aikido and then had also trained with Dan, Mike, Rob, Akuzawa, or others who teach the fundamental ki/kokyu (to use Aikido terms) body skills that have occupied hundreds of pages of discussion on Aikiweb in the last few years. I did not realize it was only for those who had trained with Dan specifically. I would not have commented in that case -- since I would be unqualified to do anything other than ask you questions.

Quote:
Dan repeatedly wrote things like "ask them". Since he obviously reads this thread, I would assume he will certainly chime in if I overstate something so I'm not feeling like I'm taking some big risk here.
I guess that's for Dan to decide. On the other hand, it puts Dan in an awkward position if people make extraordinary claims for him -- and these claims are presumed to represent him unless he explicitly disclaims them. What if Dan wanted to quietly avoid my pointed questions? Now he has to address them or seemingly give his implicit agreement with your observations.

Quote:
My experience(s) with Dan left me with the impression that one who is engaging with Dan will get fairly dominated fairly quickly - and the power differential would be similar to that between an adult and a child. And I posted that myself in a different thread, so I felt it appropriate to respond to your question about that exact idea.
Fair enough.

Quote:
I'm 100% certain that there are SOME people out there well trained in external martial arts that could have a much closer fight with Dan say like 70% to Dan and 30% to them. (The friend I brought maybe being more in that category.) Fine, no one is claiming indestructable and undefeatable.
No, the claim is *much* more ambitious. In order to subdue 'violent actions without causing harm', you would need to be far more than just undefeatable. Man with rifle really is undefeatable against an unarmed man at 100 yards. But there is no way he can do his thing without causing harm. It's really that distinction that I'm looking at. And then what happens when the other guy has a rifle too. Dan may be the greatest martial artist in the world, but his claim would *still* require that he be much better than everyone else to really make sense.

Quote:
Dan often writes that he is still just beginning to learn this stuff himself.
I have noticed Dan's humility too, which is why I credit him with exaggerating rather than really meaning what he said.

Quote:
Regarding "fairly unique". Well I dish out citations from the sematic police myself, but I'm sticking to my guns on this one.
Rob, I was going to let you off with a warning. Why'd you have to go and argue the point?
Quote:
Dan teaches anti-aiki. As far as I know, that is his term, and his study. Which is unique. However, it would be plausable that this kind of aspect is done to some degree by some of the rare others who also work these skills.
When I asked Chen Xiao Wang if I could try to joint-lock him, he happily let me do my best. It wasn't nearly good enough, and he was able to have his way with me. Now, I can do the same to my two-year-old (and a much lesser approximation to adults with less training). I can also sometimes (I'm not claiming great skill) joint-lock someone who knows how to block the lock in this way (if crudely) -- so that's a first-degree approximation of the skillset, even if I suck at it. So CXW's ability to shut me down cold suggests that he also trains in this way. Just the other day I heard privately of a different Taiji teacher for whom this field of study is part of the normal pedagogy. So it may not be *that* rare, even if it's unusual. If you had said his training approach is unique that would be fine, as long as you allowed that others also use this unique approach. You said *Dan* is fairly unique. I dinged you because you're implying that his approach is unique and that you think few if any others use it. You're mixing up Dan with his approach and using the ambiguity that might exist from diluting the meaning of 'unique' to cover that up. That conflation actually pre-commits you to ad hominem attacks on Dan's approach -- which would then be very hard to refute since you've bought into their premise. I think Dan's approach is probably pretty good, so I would rather decouple them from Dan, the man, however exemplary his demonstration of its result.

In any case, your 'semantic violation' is an entirely forgivable mistake of speech -- basically a typo; but it still demonstrates exactly the mistake in question. That wouldn't matter if the *actual meaning of unique* was not largely what is at stake in this discussion.

Quote:
So I qualified unique. There are levels of infinity in math, it doesn't seem like such a stretch to say "fairly unique". Call it poetic license.
So would you say that something is 'fairly infinite'? No, of course not. You would say it is infinite, or you would qualify that infinity in a mathematically precise way. Most charitably, you just used 'fairly unique' to mean 'unusual or quite rare'. You're the one dragging the letter of the statute into the discussion here. By the way, as far as I am concerned, you *can* qualify unique -- but not through degrees of uniqueness (unless you want to try to go the precise route and actually explain the type of uniqueness alleged -- say, 'genetically unique'). For example, you could have said that Dan is 'probably unique' indicating that you do not know whether others train as he does (which is true) but that you *believe* him to be so. That's what I might have said in your position -- but I'm not sure it's what *you* actually meant.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:06 AM   #6
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi Rob
To stick to the idea of the thread and to answer Chhi'mèd more directly:
How exactly do you see the dominate force affecting the opponent? How would you see a power differential as being the studd of aiki? Some may wonder and equate it with the effect of using muscle or MMA skills, sicne their predominate repsonse may be to blend and move out of the way.
Do you suppost that if I attacked you you could blend and take me or control me? How would that be different then what you do now?
How is this control of forces beffiting of aiki? Say if you throw a punch or try to grab me?.
Your friend was experienced in tuning MMAers-including one who appeared on the UFC, how did you perceive aiki...do affecting his movement when he tried to enter for a throw?
Have you formed any opinions of your own about how aiki...do can truly transform your own Aikido™ and make it very potent as a martial art?

Really this is open to Mark, Ron, Chris anyone who has gone to train with various people and may have thoughts on how this would effect their Aikido™-hopefully both in attack ro defense. How do you see it as making a change in connection values-for you?

Last edited by DH : 07-04-2008 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:39 AM   #7
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: View Post
.... Hell, if I could win bets just by getting beat up, I wouldn't need a day job.
Heck, I'm a lawyer -- that is my day job...

I have started a separate thread on structure and dynamics for those that care:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showth...336#post210336

And for those that don't

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...&ct=image&cd=1

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #8
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Chhi'mèd
Are we really interested in stretching and turning every phrase and word to unsreasonable and ridiculous lengths? No I don't make people lift up pencils and do automatic writing and make me coffee. Feeling like your movements are being totally controlled when attacking someone is well within hundreds of defintiions of high level aiki. If you are unaware of it-well...that pretty much speaks for itself doesn't it.
If you are aware and have felt it, then knock it off and just talk plainly. Are you doubting that the same level of control can happen under more intense attacks? What?
Can you state your questions to me in more simple and direct terms please?
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:13 AM   #9
clwk
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Chhi'mèd
Are we really interested in stretching and turning every phrase and word to unsreasonable and ridiculous lengths?
No, Dan, I was just shooting the breeze with Rob -- since I didn't feel he was qualified to speak for you but chose to do so anyway.

Quote:
No I don't make people lift up pencils and do automatic writing and make me coffee. Feeling like your movements are being totally controlled when attacking someone is well within hundreds of defintiions of high level aiki. If you are unaware of it-well...that pretty much speaks for itself doesn't it.
If you are aware and have felt it, then knock it off and just talk plainly.
Sure, I understand -- at least in general terms. That caveat is because I wouldn't claim great expertise, or to know specifically what you can do or teach.

Quote:
Are you doubting that the same level of control can happen under more intense attacks? What?
I don't doubt it at all. I think it becomes exponentially harder with the seriousness of the attack. Especially if the attacker is a) also aware of the dynamic and has a modicum of skill in it; and b) willing to let *himself* be hurt in order to accomplish his goals (whatever they may be). Under those circumstances, I wasn't sure if what you were describing can be successful. With a great enough skill/strength/size differential any approach can be successful, or course, but I think every approach has practical limits.

To be clear, I applaud the ideal, and I respect your acknowledgment of the pragmatics as well. Since you didn't know what position I was representing when you made your statement, I made the logical assumption that you felt your position could hold up against mine *without* knowing it. That implies a very strong claim. You would not be the first person in history to make such claims (or have them made for you) so I was genuinely interested in knowing if you *are* making it. I'm trying to ask this pointed question with as much humor and friendliness as possible.

Quote:
Can you state your questions to me in more simple and direct terms please?
I'll try. Please let me know if the above was clear enough or you want me to refine it.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #10
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

-I got it, but i'm going to be gone all day. I'll try to answer tomm. My position such as it is -has held up and been tested in many different venues. Exerience is a bitch to deal with on both sides; to carry its lessons and to refute them.

Happy independance day to everyone!
And may I be the first to say "Thank you" to Dennis, William, Kevin, Mike Sigman, and also Kit and any others I missed- for all that you did or do to keep us independant.

Last edited by DH : 07-04-2008 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:23 PM   #11
clwk
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
My position such as it is -has held up and been tested in many different venues. Exerience is a bitch to deal with on both sides; to carry its lessons and to refute them.
Thanks, Dan. I look forward to hearing exactly what the position is. I won't know if I agree with it or not until I hear it, and I have no attachment to either outcome. If I do disagree with it, I will be happy to help find a way for you to convince me, if you're willing to. If you could convince me of the strong position I'm not yet sure you hold, that would be the greatest outcome of all -- because it's one I would love to believe. I just have not yet met anyone who could convince me of it, and not for lack of me trying. That's not a criticism of anyone either. So I look forward to hearing more -- in the spirit of constructive dialog.

-ck
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Old 07-04-2008, 12:54 PM   #12
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Chhi'mèd,

I tried to answer that post after waking up at like 3 am for no good reason. I have no problems with the percision you would like to hold me to. But since you seemed to guess right about my intentions and restate them better it seems I was fairly successfull in communicating in my blurry-eyed state.

You are of course right that I said aikido folks who worked with Dan and it was for aikido folks who worked with Dan, Mike, Aukuzawa, Rob J, and any other fast track folks. But that didn't really seem to confuse you much. This is just silly one-up-manship which you're welcome to have. I can't argue against Erick Mead even if I were right. He's too careful and I am not willing to put in the time on such things. I'm happy to just take some correction - if it is really helping clear up confusion - and keep moving forward.

The secretary offer was not meant to imply PRESS SECRETARY. Just willing to organize things if requested.

As far as being completely taken over. Well, I've been completely taken over by a large wave - and it couldn't make me pick up an object on a table next to me either. I just mean that I didn't get to chose what actions I took next - at all! My body went in some bizzare direction and my mind tried to catch up to what was happening.

As far as how well trained I am. Well, it's always a matter of perspective. My body can take a hell of a lot of aiki power into it and take decent ukemi from most people but I could doubtfully succeed in a fight in the UFC very well. So I brought a friend.

I was thinking about the power differential between you and a horse. While the horse has more power - I don't think that the horse has trained to take power away from you as you try to manipuate it. So I'm not saying Dan is stronger than a horse. I'm saying he is strong and makes you weaker than you would normally be against someone not trained like that.

And given that, his approach is much more likely to produce the results of being able to subdue a violent aggressor while doing no harm than any other approaches I have encountered thus far in my constantly looking for such things for all of my adult life.

So while I'm not Dan, I think I have a decent level of understanding which can probably add value to the discussion and answer some questions a bit. This being an online forum, and a topic I'm interested in, I hope you don't mind if I continue to dare to respond.

I'll try to get back to Dan's questions, I have some plans today - that involve a 4 year old and a playground!

Special thanks to all Military and LEO from me as well!

Rob

PS. a funny story about one-up-manship. I was in a car stopped in traffic at a light. My wife had her feet up on the dash (she was feeling very sick) and her seat was reclined. The guy next to me, beeps his horn. I roll down the window, and he goes into a long explanation about how dangerous it is for her to be doing that because of the air bag. I thanked him, my wife didn't change position one bit. And I simply remaked to my wife and our friend Jen in my car - "I notice there are no females in that car."

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-04-2008 at 01:02 PM.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:07 PM   #13
rob_liberti
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

First it should be noted that the title of this spin off thread (Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm) would make a reasonable definition for "aikido".

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To stick to the idea of the thread and to answer Chhi'mèd more directly:
How exactly do you see the dominate force affecting the opponent? How would you see a power differential as being the studd of aiki? Some may wonder and equate it with the effect of using muscle or MMA skills, sicne their predominate repsonse may be to blend and move out of the way.
I see the dominate force affecting the opponent such that the opponent is immediately weakened and basically shut down on contact to falling straight down at nage's feet and/or going into self-maintenence mode. The feeling is something like all of a sudden finding yourself underwater by suprise.

However, I'm sure some people attack such that they protect both more kamikazi types as well as have pretty good structure as well as have fantastic internal/external fighting skills. My assumption is that this situation would probably wind up trading blows. The thing to note is that aiki blows are pretty much fight-enders. There simply cannot be too many people who can take several of those.

In 10 years, will Dan be able to even handle that kind of attack and do no harm? Not sure, but I'll say that approach has the best chance I've seen so far. (The approach I HAD been going for was to develop even better keep away skills so that by the time contact was ever made I would have some tactical advantage from them over-reaching themselves on top of my having developed superior aiki power from my aikido-proper training. Now I see that I can focus on the aiki a lot more and learn to do no harm from this paridigm.)

These skills are not the same as the typical MMA skills (although I have great respect for them). I would say my opinion at present is that: MMA with aiki power - turned into a force of doing least harm SHOULD BE the physical aspect of aikido that powers misogi training as well as provides proper context for the spiritual studies of aikido if you ask me. If you don't agree, that's fine, but that's where I plan to take it myself. (Ha and when I do, I can post about it and it will not belong in non-aikido martial traditions.)

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Do you suppost that if I attacked you you could blend and take me or control me? How would that be different then what you do now? How is this control of forces beffiting of aiki? Say if you throw a punch or try to grab me?. Your friend was experienced in tuning MMAers-including one who appeared on the UFC, how did you perceive aiki...do affecting his movement when he tried to enter for a throw?
You maintain your internal harmony the entire time you move, so while I can _possibly_ blend with you and play keep away while staying relatively close, there is no way that I can take control of you until my internal harmony is on par are superior to yours. Which is the case in aikido-proper as well I might add. It's just that your internal harmony takes things to an entirely new level for me.

Compared to the average joe my internal power and my finesse to hide my weaknesses were generally more than enough to deal with people from all sorts of other martial arts fairly well. Against people who do not have well developed internal power/aiki - I can move, blend, and control lots of people inside and out of aikido. I was just on my slow aproach to attempting to re-invent what you've already been doing for 12-14 years when I met you and happily realized I had a chance of getting much further than I had dreamed possible.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Have you formed any opinions of your own about how aiki...do can truly transform your own Aikido™ and make it very potent as a martial art?
As I said: MMA with aiki power - turned into a force of doing least harm SHOULD BE the physical aspect of aikido that powers misogi training as well as provides proper context for the spiritual studies of aikido if you ask me.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-04-2008 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 07-04-2008, 08:41 PM   #14
rob_liberti
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

A picture of Dan training me:



He's the muppet...

Ok seriously, it is a bit what it "feels" like.

Rob
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:23 PM   #15
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Rob, no hard feelings from my side. Conversations take funny turns, so let's just focus on whatever meat might be in here and forget about the banter for the moment. Now that the thread has moved we can probably discuss more technical details if we want to, so even though I know it miffs you, it's probably better, right?

Anyhow, it looks like Dan's post to which you're replying got lost in the thread split. I'll wait and see if it shows up, since I can't really follow the conversation without it.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-04-2008, 10:49 PM   #16
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Never mind. I see the post now, sorry about that. I'll still just wait for Dan's direct reply.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:13 AM   #17
rob_liberti
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

No hard feeling at all. My previous post wasn't exactly serious.
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Old 07-05-2008, 07:38 AM   #18
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Rob, the image doesn't show up for me, so I just assumed it was a formal portrait.
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Old 07-05-2008, 09:42 AM   #19
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Darn, it was luke skywalker upside down in a 1 handed handstand with yoda sitting on his foot. Oh well, I never tried to link to an image here too bad.

The funny thing is that I do end up having to hold strange postures, and focus my mental intention. I just don't make rocks fly around...
Maybe that will be next.

Rob
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:26 PM   #20
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Hi Dan, I'm just writing in to this thread again in case you hadn't realized it has been moved. I know it confused me. Anyhow, if you happen to see this post -- please let me know if you need me to clarify my questions. I'm sure I will be able to figure out a way to put them very directly if we go back and forth a few times to refine it.

Regards,
Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:17 PM   #21
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Without "Harm" is a manner of intention not just technique or method.... I would say dozens of times a day all over the US Police Officers draw their service weapon and point it at a suspect who may mean them harm and.... In over 98% (or higher) of these incidents no harm is committed in the act of "resolving" the conflict...

Knowing Aiki or expressing it is one thing... Your intentions are something else. In Aikido I would like to think we train ourselves to commit a minimal amount of "harm" by polishing our intentions...

As Shoji Nishio put it....

"People who practice Aikido should be recognized as the best artists in the world. It's easy to create something good with good materials, however, we perform a martial art that is designed to destroy and kill people, which, is something people dislike.
With these poor materials, we cultivate a society of friendship and build peaceful minds that people desire.

Every Aikido technique has that mind/heart"


So while all this talk of great skill is wonderful all I am interested in is what kind of man or woman it makes you into...

That is Budo... and I think Fred Little said much the same thing in referring to Terry Dobson's last few classes at Bond Street before he died on a similar thread a few days back.

William Hazen
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Old 07-08-2008, 04:49 PM   #22
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Knowing Aiki or expressing it is one thing... Your intentions are something else. In Aikido I would like to think we train ourselves to commit a minimal amount of "harm" by polishing our intentions...

As Shoji Nishio put it....

"People who practice Aikido should be recognized as the best artists in the world. It's easy to create something good with good materials, however, we perform a martial art that is designed to destroy and kill people, which, is something people dislike.
With these poor materials, we cultivate a society of friendship and build peaceful minds that people desire.

Every Aikido technique has that mind/heart"
Thanks, William. I appreciate the sentiment. However, let's respect Jun's wishes and keep the discussion to Non-Aikido Martial Traditions. We're specifically examining the extent to which the 'aiki' skillset provides a technical basis for actual success in preventing harm. I take it for granted that no-one in these discussions *wants* to cause gratuitous harm.

Chhi'mèd
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Old 07-08-2008, 06:34 PM   #23
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Quote:
Chhi'mèd Künzang wrote: View Post
We're specifically examining the extent to which the 'aiki' skillset provides a technical basis for actual success in preventing harm.
Chhi'mèd
I think you've misread my "intentions" ANY "technical" skillset including Aiki as expressed in Daito-Ryu, Firearms, Nuclear Weapons ect ect ect
can provide "success without harm." Only a man bent on suicide would continue attacking someone who has "technical mastery" over him.

To me it's all about intention since the technical aspect of Budo as expressed in Daito-Ryu is a moot point.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-08-2008 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:20 PM   #24
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

It's not the skill sets that are special. Aikido has nothing that I have not seen in any other martial art as far as a skill set that is unique or sets it apart from stopping harm. IMO, there is nothing special in aikido in that respect. Nothing.

I agree with WIlliam Hazen, guns, nukes, whatever are the same as anything we learn in aikido.

So, what is it that sets it apart? It has more to do with the holistic approach to budo than anything else. Budo is the answer.

That should not be an excuse for us to not learn good martial skills. Quite the contrary, the study of budo done properly COMPELLS us to learn martial skills correctly. To look at the lethality correctly, to embrace it.

I think if you start looking at aiki from that perspective it really changes things. It did for me.

Krav Maga, BJJ, Judo, Aikido, or Internal Skills training...it all starts to be apart of aikido waza once you realize it ain't about the skills, but about the holistic study of budo.

AIkido provides us a structure in order to study budo. A wonderful one!

It does require us, I think to LET GO, of the notion of aikido as a set of skills though.

William is dead on.

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Old 07-08-2008, 10:11 PM   #25
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Re: Using Daito-Ryu's Aiki Without Harm

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Only a man bent on suicide would continue attacking someone who has "technical mastery" over him.
William, it is fortunate that we live in a world in which such an illogical tactic would never be employed -- whether with 'Firearms, Nuclear Weapons ect ect ect'. If we did not, it might make 'control without harm' an unattainable goal *in the general case*. Sure, it would remain a valuable ideal (as I have stated), but I guess it would break down in cases like the ones you describe . . . which fortunately never occur.

Chhi'mèd
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