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Old 07-01-2008, 11:54 AM   #226
DH
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Thanks Dan Tim and Rob for taking the time to break things down. I am now understanding "it" a bit better.

William Hazen
But wait, Erik will be by shortly with some long mathmetical something or other to explain things we do and get you totally confused.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:58 AM   #227
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Push on them and they you feel it almost immediately. If you let go suddenly, they spring-up in whatever direction they are commpensating for.
My son and I are diligintly working on this.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:20 PM   #228
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
But wait, Erik will be by shortly with some long mathmetical something or other to explain things we do and get you totally confused.
Don't worry! I failed algebra 3 times...

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 07-01-2008 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:22 PM   #229
gregstec
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
John Ruhl wrote: View Post
Robert -

Thanks very much for putting together that wiki and posting the link to it. I have been wishing for something like that for a while, and it's great to know about it. Much appreciated.

-John
Yes, a very good summary indeed - a few pictures of the body positions in the exercises would make it outstanding

Greg S
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:26 PM   #230
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Ah..but there needn't be damage-just control.
No worries. I was just making a joke about your anaphoric use of the word 'imagine'. It so reminded me of John Lennon's song I assumed it was intentional. As such, I thought it was provided a humorous exposition of the distinctions between various interpretations of the Concept Formerly Known as Aiki. I assumed that was intentional too.

Quote:
The type of movement quality is very controlling-even fun. Waddya think we wreck each other and throw away the pieces.
My life insurance policy won't be active for another week or so, but in principle it sounds fun . . . as long as it's fun.

Quote:
I'll be willing to betcha over which methods offers the greater potential for control over another humans violent actions without causing harm.
What are my options, and what's the spread? Everybody knows you kick butt with a smile, though -- and I'm not about to argue.

-ck
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:14 PM   #231
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Spiral winding juji (90 degrees) shear stress in simultaneous tension/compression This forms a standing torsion wave (Horizontal vice vertical, but you get the idea):
Attachment 505

The intercostal internus with the ribs and transversus follow these bias shear ply lines taking those crossing spiral lines around the the body.

These allow a spiral moment (tendency to rotate/standing wave) or a spiral movement (a dynamic spiral wave). Limbs just follow in the same manner (asagao). Tension can be potentiated in either of the spirals by -- surprise -- breath control. Structure and dynamic are the same.


Movement of muscles, tension on opposing muscles, etc. is technique--movement or the preparation of movement (however you want to describe this action/preparation).

You describe technique--a physical response. Understanding that technique might take time, but it is a physical reaction/movement/tightening/etc.

That many might not be there or know what "that" is? I accept that. Many of us might never get there, and I don't think that is "failure." Many of us might not get our head wrapped around relativity or ballet. Either way, our journey through life is not in vain or worthless. Are we "missing" something? Maybe. If I am here to only learn the movements as effective as I can, then sure--I might not be able to stop the door from knocking me senseless. Yet, I have yet to be attacked by a door. If I am here for more--not for learning to attack an enemy, then maybe not. Relativity is found everywhere isn't it? So, if

"O Sensei created Aikido as a martial way for students to develop a strong body and a mind that is calm, free from contentious thoughts, and whose natural reaction is defense rather than offense, protection rather than counter-destruction."

All I have to do is not hold the door and avoid the door. At least not listen to the door walk me into being hit by it, and I might be fine.

Back to bike riding. You may understand the issues riding a bmx bike, but riding downhill takes more than you might know from bmx experience. While you may have the movement down, the "music" would not be there since the experience with that movement was lacking.

Why could you not "have it" in some techniques and not in others--obviously asked from someone who does not have it when it comes to Aikido movements

Either way, I think it is different than telling a 5-year old which muscles to use when riding the bike--he doesn't know any muscles while we have Gray's anatomy and experience with body movement--just my opinion. At the very least, we have ways to "get there" better than simply saying "inside." Don't we?
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:20 PM   #232
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
But wait, Erik will be by shortly with some long mathmetical something or other to explain things we do and get you totally confused.
What you said is funny.

And for me Erik posts are often a wonderful mixture of science and spirit and he does no more to obfuscate the world of aiki ( or ai-chi ) than anyhting else I've read. I'm interested in his writing, training, and slant, and I hope he comes back and talks with all of us again in this thread and in others.

Thanks,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:39 PM   #233
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

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Why could you not "have it" in some techniques and not in others--obviously asked from someone who does not have it when it comes to Aikido movements
Assuming you know what you need to do to pull off the skill, you should be able to manifest it in virtually all techniques. And if you can't it's cuz you suck, or aren't thinking hard enough about it

It's another reason I don't really care for the technique paradigm too much.

Besides which, if I told you you need to drop the intercostal muscles, while using a ball of muscle 3 inches below the belly button, to push it back against the lower back, inflate the illial psoas, then push the pressure up through the upper back...in order to perform a strike, would it help you at all?

The reason why a lot of the exercises are formulated the way they are, is because most people don't have any control over the parts that are needed in order to pull off these skills. So you have to develop awareness of these parts, condition them, then you can start to talk about "pull here, use this" etc. Otherwise it's all just Greek.
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:01 PM   #234
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob wrote:

Quote:
Besides which, if I told you you need to drop the intercostal muscles, while using a ball of muscle 3 inches below the belly button, to push it back against the lower back, inflate the illial psoas, then push the pressure up through the upper back...in order to perform a strike, would it help you at all?
No...let me think about this a second....ummmm...NO It doesn't help.

Quote:
The reason why a lot of the exercises are formulated the way they are, is because most people don't have any control over the parts that are needed in order to pull off these skills. So you have to develop awareness of these parts, condition them, then you can start to talk about "pull here, use this" etc. Otherwise it's all just Greek.
Yes.

I also agree with the whole technique thing.

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Old 07-01-2008, 11:11 PM   #235
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Lightbulb Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Rob wrote:

No...let me think about this a second....ummmm...NO It doesn't help
Me either. Yet, I would hope that after 2 years of practice, I would have it. If so many of us do not (and I can admit that I am not there yet) have it, what are we (as students) and/or you (as sempai) doing so wrong?

Or is it that most of us (as I see you seem to be saying it) just won't or can't get it?

I ask this now in order to avoid "missing" it later (or at least to try and obtain direction now...).
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Old 07-02-2008, 12:00 AM   #236
Upyu
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
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Me either. Yet, I would hope that after 2 years of practice, I would have it. If so many of us do not (and I can admit that I am not there yet) have it, what are we (as students) and/or you (as sempai) doing so wrong?

Or is it that most of us (as I see you seem to be saying it) just won't or can't get it?

I ask this now in order to avoid "missing" it later (or at least to try and obtain direction now...).
Err...in case you missed the last couple of years worth of threads let me sum it up.

The skills are out there, but not everyone teaches them.
There are some with the skill, and will show, but won't teach.
There are fewer with the skill, and will show and teach.
And even fewer that will show, and teach, and CAN teach

List off the top of my head of guys you'd probably want to get hands on with:
Any of the Chen Village Tai Chi guys that do seminars in the states, Sam Chin of Iliquchan, Ushiro Kenji, I'd list some Aikido guys, but I haven't felt any in the states, so I'll leave that up to Rob Liberti and others to give any recommendations.

If I were in your position, and didn't have immediate access to recommended instruction, it sucks, but I'd lay down the $$$ to get at least a first hand feel of what someone with the skills actually feels like. At least that way you know whether people you train with have the same feel or not, and you can determine for yourself whether its a waste of time
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:32 AM   #237
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Hi Paulina
Hanmi offers most the opportunity to bleed energy-usually at a about a 30 to 45 deg angle in the direction of whichever hip is the rear hip. Left leg back bleed left, right-bleed right. Push on them and they you feel it almost immediately. If you let go suddenly, they spring-up in whatever direction they are commpensating for.
....snip....
It's hard to describe movement. ..
Thanks for trying.

Hey, I can say "I do that , too" about the above! I just asked my husband (weighs less than me, no martial arts experience or interest for that matter) to push me in hamni, and then stop pushing. Ummm...

Back to work...
kvaak
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:12 AM   #238
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hey Dan, et al--

Until recently, I didn't get that the big ball, on which the door is placed, is not part of the boney structure of the pelvis. I'd always thought some motion of the sacrum had to do with the 3 axis of rotation of the ball.

Am I correct in assuming that if the bones of my ppelvis were in a clamp I could ummm inflate myself a bit and use that springy structure to exhibit the rotation posibilities?

Part of learning this stuff gets mixed up in balance and movement and standing IMO. Some of that is because I'm trained in a movement education system, where we change the orientation to gravity in order to learn new things...

That way there isn't all this mess about standing and dealing with balance and weight.

Example, I can do tons of reasonably grounded stuff with pushes, etc, but my kua does a fair amount of the work. Would seiza be a good compromise to create a constrained environment in which other parts would be called upon to address dealing with incoming forces and issuing force?

Also, in other posts, someone mentions not moving the shoulders and arms. In the analogies of rods and cam chafts, etc, the upper bar is definitely moving, as are the edges of the door.

I have felt, and can actually exhibit to some degree the moving of bones without moving the external flesh and v/v is that what we're talking about here?

Joel
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:40 PM   #239
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Also, in other posts, someone mentions not moving the shoulders and arms. In the analogies of rods and cam chafts, etc, the upper bar is definitely moving, as are the edges of the door.
Of course it does... the question is where is movement initiated from and transferred to... not what is moving. And since I don't have a 300HP washing machine agitator buried in the ground where I'm standing, where is the power to drive the vertical rod coming from?

Ignatius
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:05 PM   #240
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
And even fewer that will show, and teach, and CAN teach

List off the top of my head of guys you'd probably want to get hands on with:
Any of the Chen Village Tai Chi guys that do seminars in the states, Sam Chin of Iliquchan, Ushiro Kenji, I'd list some Aikido guys, but I haven't felt any in the states, so I'll leave that up to Rob Liberti and others to give any recommendations.
I don't know how to spell it, but Wang Hai June has "it" and can teach it but....

I I think WHJ, Sam Chin, and probably Ushiro sensei are all in the 25-30 year plan. Wouldn't you agree?

It's the folks that are fast tracking to what THEY call basic skills (that most would call mastery level body awareness) that are most interesting to me. There are some aikido sensei in the 25-35 year plan category, but no one in aikido is in the fast track category - YET.

Several aikido sensei are looking into systema and some of the better DR (or former DR) guys.

My only real experience with someone who can fast track you is with Dan Harden who is awesome. I plan to meet Howard Popkin, and I have high hopes that he is in the same category. I believe that Mike Sigman says that teaching this stuff in the most effective way is his goal (correct me if I'm wrong) - but I do not believe he is actively teaching students on a regular basis (again correct me if I'm wrong). I'd recommend his workshops based on all accounts so far for sure.

I think in the future - if I have anything to say about it - we may see a converted Gleason sensei to this training methodology. We'll see. I suspect we will see more and more of this in George Ledyard sensei for sure. I have a LOT of respect for Josh Drachman in Florida who's been taking some good steps to this end for a while now.

There are a few of us in the MA and CT area who are training as regularly as possible with Dan Harden. You may see something from us in the "relatively" near future. I can be the contact for that area if needed, but Dan posts here (this being his thread and all) so no real need unless he is looking for me to be a secretary (which would be fine too).

There is a group of folks serious in the Virginia area as well, and I assume they are in a similar -up and coming- state. Look to Timothy WK who posts in this thread for that area.

There is a group of folks in Washington state area who are probably ahead of most of us up and coming folks. I think Chris Moses is a good contact for that group.

Ikeda sensei is approaching this from the Ushiro sensei view point but he's a training animal so I assume we'll see interesting changes from him and his school in the near futrue if not directly from him, then from the trading we'll all eventually do with his students.

I'd say read the threads mentioned in this thread and you'll know who the players are and where they are geographically as well as in ability.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-02-2008 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:23 PM   #241
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Here are some recent picture of Gleason sensei.

http://albums.phanfare.com/5069352/2...ageID=33668808

Look at his posture. Notice how he IS NOT standing like most of the people aikido stand. His weight is not dumping out of his front 100% of the time. I wouldn't say never, but I'd go so far as extremely rarely. I'd say that might be the best way to tell who has developed some degree of uncommon body integrity.

Now look at the pictures right here on aiki web. I'll not name names. Look for yourself. See who dumps their weight out their front all the time. That's a dead give away for at least who cannot possibly "fast track" you (at the time of their photos anyway).

Rob
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:23 PM   #242
Upyu
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I I think WHJ, Sam Chin, and probably Ushiro sensei are all in the 25-30 year plan. Wouldn't you agree?
Actually Sam Chin is more in the span of 3-4 years, but it depends on the person. You'd have to have constant instruction from the guy for a good year at the very least. Problem is that most people lack faith with regards to the solo exercises, and don't do them. Something I remember Sam used to bitch about a lot
His top student Dave started to get pretty skilled (relative to others) in about 3 years. I think at around the 5 year mark is when the conditioning started to make a big difference.
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Old 07-03-2008, 12:05 AM   #243
John Connolly
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Rob L.,

Most of us in the TNBBC have felt reasonably good results in power delivery/reception and balance maintenance mindfully practicing Aunkai and various IMA tanren over the last 2 or so years, and I imagine it can only get better... and I don't think we need to be in retirement age to reap the rewards.

For the pics of Gleason, note how he appears to move within his frame, not extending beyond his kuzushi point, and completely shifting his weight from one foot to the next: even without the various tanren exercises, if you can attempt to make this your goal in training, I believe that you will make significant progress. This is what I see from the stills, but I cannot tell if that's what's actually happening.

Rob J.,

Wussup? Good to see you, and I am hoping, since I am now out of skool (for at least a while) I may be able to visit Japan sometime in the near-ish future (I have in-laws there now). Thanks for your helpful posts and replies.

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Old 07-03-2008, 06:19 AM   #244
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
John Connolly wrote: View Post
Most of us in the TNBBC have felt reasonably good results in power delivery/reception and balance maintenance mindfully practicing Aunkai and various IMA tanren over the last 2 or so years, and I imagine it can only get better... and I don't think we need to be in retirement age to reap the rewards.
Okay. I am certainly not an expert myself and I can't speak for who knows what. I had attempted to start that post explaining who was on the 25-35 year plan (which is still respectable if you ask me ) and who was on the faster track to those skills. All of the groups I was aware of that I mentioned I considered faster track groups unless I specified otherwise. I could have been more clear.

So is Christian Moses not part of the TNBBC in the Washington state area?

It was good to know I was wrong about Sam Chin's methodology where it turns out he is teaching on the fast track after all.

Then of course there will be further divisions. Is Aukuzawa as internal as Dan or Mike? That is not clear. Is Dan's training not as robust as what Mike teaches? Is what Mike teaches that Dan doesn't as necessary for learning this stuff initially? Please no one try to answer these questions in this thread. I'm not looking to start an internal power/aiki holy war. I'm just pointing out that people interested in this stuff will probably start cross training and asking these questions internally to start making their own decisions about where they think continuing to put their focus will help them the most.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 07-03-2008 at 06:23 AM.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:14 AM   #245
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Several aikido sensei are looking into systema and some of the better DR (or former DR) guys.
They're wasting their time looking into Systema. I realize there are a fair number of Aikidoka who feel some sort of draw to Systema because it seems to have similar cooperative training and whatnot, but you won't gain the skills Dan or Mike talk about. This is not to say that you can't learn anything in Systema, but that's exactly what suckers people. Vasiliev and Ryabo have backgrounds in sambo and therefore have real skill they can draw on when they need to, which is what allows them to sell the other nonsense.

If anyone wants to read the story of a student of Vasiliev's, it can be found here:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52259

Such discussions invariably rankle Systema fans because they may feel they learned something useful from it (which is not impossible, but is much more reliably done elsewhere), and people can do whatever they like. But if you want to gain the internal skills discussed here you can be assured it won't happen in Systema. Just a word to the wise.
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:31 AM   #246
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Hi folks,

Can I remind people that the topic of this thread is how internal training methods from non-aikido training methods have impacted your aikido.

If you wish to discuss specifically the training methods employed in non-aikido martial traditions, please do so in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 07-03-2008, 08:48 AM   #247
Howard Popkin
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Mr. Austin,

While there is no system of martial arts that I think is perfect, some of those Systema guys have real skills. Like ANY system, some people train, some talk. Some learn, some don't. You can't measure a system from one bad experience.

I have not trained with them enough personally to know if they posses all the same types of movements found in Daitoryu, Tai chi, or the like, but they do possess:

1) Lots of softness in a variety of methods
2) They hit like tanks
3) They possess energy dispersion techniques

I personally hit Kaizen Taki, one of the instructors of the Seattle group with a few aiki punches in a row that would have dropped large animals like cows, horses, or tuna I weight 235 and Kaizen is about 120 wearing a hakama and judogi(he also did aikido).

I estimate that I sent him back about 6 or 7 feet, over and over he asked me to do it again. I then added movement to the punches - spirals internally, aiki age, sage, etc... He was able to feel all the movement and energy that I put in and he was able to tell me the direction I added to it. His body was soft the entire time.

Kaizen had no problem absorbing the power and explained that they train this method all the time. He also then hit me with a few strikes that were VERY interesting. One radiated. One was deep. His attack was soft but had great, well directed power.

I do not speak for them, only my experiences, but I do know that Ikeda Sensei locked up Mr. Vasiliev and Mr. Vasilev softened himself right out of all the locks. If you don't think they have real ability, I recommend the guys in Seattle or go to Vladimir himself, he is in Toronto. Not too far.

So while this person on bullshido may have had a bad experience, Many people write about me on there as well.

My answer to all of them is the same.

Howard Popkin
Daitoryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai
686 Dogwood Avenue
Franklin Square, NY 11010
516-489-1278

Hope that helps.

Howard
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:48 AM   #248
ChrisMoses
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Okay. I am certainly not an expert myself and I can't speak for who knows what. I had attempted to start that post explaining who was on the 25-35 year plan (which is still respectable if you ask me ) and who was on the faster track to those skills. All of the groups I was aware of that I mentioned I considered faster track groups unless I specified otherwise. I could have been more clear.

So is Christian Moses not part of the TNBBC in the Washington state area?
I think John was agreeing with and expanding what you said, and yes I'm with John, Jeremy, Neil (and other lurkers) here in the TNBBC.

Those were some good pix of Gleason Sensei. I've never had the pleasure of training with him, but I have gotten to train with Takeda Yoshinobu a few times now, and can see how his students and those who were at least heavily influenced by him (it's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, that when Gleason attempted to train with Yamaguchi Sensei, he was first directed to Takeda Sensei first) would be in a fairly good position to either pick This Stuff™ up along the way or if getting it from other sources apply it more readily and with less crinkled brows in their dojos than some other lines/lineages of Aikido. How to actually do a lot of the stuff I've felt from Takeda Sensei seems a lot clearer (and much easier) after a few years of the Aunkai bodywork stuff.

Chris Moses
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Old 07-03-2008, 08:51 AM   #249
Dennis Hooker
Dojo: Shindai Dojo, Orlando Fl.
Location: Orlando Florida
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 456
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
But wait, Erik will be by shortly with some long mathmetical something or other to explain things we do and get you totally confused.
Iij = f (Ri, Aj)
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f (Dij)

Interaction (I) between i and j is a function of repulsive forces (R) at i and attractive forces (A) at j, and an inverse function of the friction/distance (D) between i and j

Iij The interaction volume from i to j
Ri a parameter representing (repulsive) factors which are associated with "leaving" i (such as outmigration)
Aj a parameter representing (attractive) factors related to going to j (such as inmigration)
Dij the distance between i and j

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
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Old 07-03-2008, 09:43 AM   #250
Gernot Hassenpflug
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 319
Japan
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Dennis, there is also a factor "alpha-omega" which those who don't know call "The hand of God"; but for others it can be quantified quite well: for example, one can use a spear (or a bo or a jo) to measure it LOL
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