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Old 07-01-2008, 08:06 AM   #1
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Haowen Chan wrote: View Post
Kendo is a martial art that is not for self defense.
I'd dispute that, I'd say kendo is a sport. In kendo you do martially unsound things for martially unsound reasons. Like aiming cuts at bits of the body covered by armour purely in order to score points.

Also because only a good clean strike to a target area counts in matches, kendoka tend to ignore things like a shinai grazing across their arteries. In the match it doesn't score points but from a practical sword fighting point of view they'd be dead.

There's nothing practically martial about it.
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Old 07-01-2008, 09:37 AM   #2
DH
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Pointless debate.
The single greatest corruptive value that Kendo trained people infuse into Koryu like a virus is its footwork. Beyond that one can argue some other bad influenses in lack of cutting with the weapon instead of baching, but there are some positive aspects in Kendo, or at least -potential positives. While we do not do Kendo, we don kendo armor and go at it with Shinai, using Koryu trained methods. Were more people in Koryu to do so (and yes some do) they would learn certain inexorable truths.

As for sport having no value in a martial context, I will personally lay money down on Greco Roman wrestlers of my choosing up against any shihan you care to have step forward.

It's interesting what you can say in a different group, without needing any further amplification.
1. On any other day I could be standing in dojo of a certain nature and say
"Aikido, Iaido and Kendo have ruined the martial arts of Japan."
And it would illicit nothing more than a nod, an agreed understanding even to the point of being looked at and them saying ...and, your point is?
2. And I could be in a dojo or gym of another type and say .
"The traditional arts of Japan have lost all sense of combative value and response to live pressure."

And in both rooms I could say. "Isn't Judo good stuff.' and be understood.

Life rarely fits into the narrow little boxes many martial artists fit themselves into and later convince themselves they're practicing in big world of options.

Last edited by DH : 07-01-2008 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:06 PM   #3
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I'd dispute that, I'd say kendo is a sport. In kendo you do martially unsound things for martially unsound reasons. Like aiming cuts at bits of the body covered by armour purely in order to score points.

Also because only a good clean strike to a target area counts in matches, kendoka tend to ignore things like a shinai grazing across their arteries. In the match it doesn't score points but from a practical sword fighting point of view they'd be dead.

There's nothing practically martial about it.
Until you look at it from a stick fighting point of view. Then it becomes much more relevant. Would you want to have a kendo player coming at you when you both hold bokken?

The best thing about alive training and competition is that it makes you very good at doing a set of skills. The skills of a kendo player are basically avoiding being hit hard with a stick and hitting people hard with a stick. The sword effect is just to help preserve a culture. That is why judoka are good at throwing people in jackets, and boxers are good at punching people in the face.

It is my opinion that sport skills translate faster to other areas then non-sport skills. My reasoning has been well put forth in many threads on this forum. In a nut shell, sparing and/or competition breeds attributes that are hard to teach without (dare I say it) 'aliveness'. For example, reacting to a changing environment is much easier to do when you are training in a changing environment. I spent years learning how to deal with punches in TKD, aikido, etc. It wasn't until I took a few boxing classes that I actually learned how. What was different? In boxing my partner actively was trying to hit me in the face in ways I never even considered. In fact his goal was for him to not allow me to hit him and to hit me as much as possible. The entire time this was happening, I was being coached on what I was doing wrong and was feeling directly the results of my mistakes and successes. You learn quickly that things like walking straight back is a bad idea when every time you do it you get blasted in the skull.

You could say that boxing has no martial attributes because it is only a sport. But the striking, footwork, body movement, and even the strategy to some extent has been found useful in other areas of fighting (such as the sport of MMA). If it translates into a less restrictive environment like MMA, then it is safe to say it will translate into a even less restrictive environment. Sure, like boxers who enter MMA, there are other skills you need to learn. But their core is not wrong, it is very useful and this is because of the attributes they have learned though sparing.

Likewise I know a few judoka who never want to participate in randori (sparing). They are technically good. They can do good throws in a throw line against a partner who lends then their balance. Their techniques look great. But get them on the mat for some sparing and they fall apart. They have no concept of timing, countering, movement, etc. Their attempts to break balance are trivial at best. Their throws turn to slop and they are winded in no time at all. Simply put, they have not learned the skills they need to actually use judo. Anyone who takes the time to get those skills can use judo in any situation where they find themselves in a close clinch. You get used to adapting and feeling the balance, its a simple matter to just throw the person. Your brain just adjusts to the new input instantly and you act. The first time I started doing no-gi judo I was surprised at how good I was at it despite never actually practicing it. My body/brain just instantly found grips it liked and used those to throw instead of the gi.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:53 AM   #4
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

I really enjoy this kendo clip
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo

That tsuki at the end, to me, looks like an application of bodyskill. But hey what the hell do I know about anything.

If kendo were still practiced with the ruleset in play in that video....sigh.

Best,
Tim
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:31 AM   #5
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

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Until you look at it from a stick fighting point of view. Then it becomes much more relevant. Would you want to have a kendo player coming at you when you both hold bokken?

The best thing about alive training and competition is that it makes you very good at doing a set of skills. The skills of a kendo player are basically avoiding being hit hard with a stick and hitting people hard with a stick.
I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.

Check out the vids on youtube, they get hit all the time but carry on regardless because it's not hit a scoring zone, they're really bad at not getting hit.

Kendoka simply don't have the defensive skills to cope with a bokken. They have very poor mobility compared to Aikidoka and they have no concept of getting off the line of attack.
Against a shinai this doesn't mean much but against an iwama ryu, which is basically a well balanced baseball bat, you're venturing into the realms of life and death.

Simply changing the stick used changes the skills you need and at the end of the day Kendoka do not possess a skill set that is usefull against an effective weapon because they're not focused on using one. They're excellent stick fighters if you ignore all the hits that don't score and the fact that their main stick is designed purely for safety rather than getting the job done. They're brilliant sparrers but less than brilliant fighters.

Getting back to the original discussion if you're going to call something a martial art then, in my opinion, it needs to have self defence value across a broad spectrum of attacks.

In fact I would define a martial art as a system of education that geared towards providing skill sets which are applicable (or at least intended to be) across the full range of possible attacks and the mental training to back up those skill sets.

Kendo doesn't IMO meet those critera, so for me, it's a sport. Same with Boxing, Judo, BJJ and MMA. So yes, I agree sports are teaching usefull skills in an effective way and may even be better than martial arts at teaching a certain level of martial competance, but by virtue of the fact that they are sports focused only on what can be safely done in competition they're not teaching compleat self defence skill sets.

To use kendo as an example here imagine what would happen if they threw out the shinai and started exclusively using bokken. Shiai would go out of the window over night and practicality would become the main concern and they would then in my book be studying a martial art.

Cordially
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:01 AM   #6
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

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Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
I respectfully disagree.

I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.

Check out the vids on youtube, they get hit all the time but carry on regardless because it's not hit a scoring zone, they're really bad at not getting hit.

Kendoka simply don't have the defensive skills to cope with a bokken. They have very poor mobility compared to Aikidoka and they have no concept of getting off the line of attack.
Against a shinai this doesn't mean much but against an iwama ryu, which is basically a well balanced baseball bat, you're venturing into the realms of life and death.

Simply changing the stick used changes the skills you need and at the end of the day Kendoka do not possess a skill set that is usefull against an effective weapon because they're not focused on using one. They're excellent stick fighters if you ignore all the hits that don't score and the fact that their main stick is designed purely for safety rather than getting the job done. They're brilliant sparrers but less than brilliant fighters.

Getting back to the original discussion if you're going to call something a martial art then, in my opinion, it needs to have self defence value across a broad spectrum of attacks.

In fact I would define a martial art as a system of education that geared towards providing skill sets which are applicable (or at least intended to be) across the full range of possible attacks and the mental training to back up those skill sets.

Kendo doesn't IMO meet those critera, so for me, it's a sport. Same with Boxing, Judo, BJJ and MMA. So yes, I agree sports are teaching usefull skills in an effective way and may even be better than martial arts at teaching a certain level of martial competance, but by virtue of the fact that they are sports focused only on what can be safely done in competition they're not teaching compleat self defence skill sets.

To use kendo as an example here imagine what would happen if they threw out the shinai and started exclusively using bokken. Shiai would go out of the window over night and practicality would become the main concern and they would then in my book be studying a martial art.

Cordially
In the end, I only know what I have experienced. Personally, I have found that people who don't spar or in a non sport art usually (and in every single case I've personally encountered) are unable to leverage even the most basic of techniques against people who do spar. There are very basic fundamental skills they are missing to actually fight. I'm sure there are ways to teach those skills without sparing, but I'm willing to bet it takes multitude of years to do it. Sparing/resistant drills/competition will give you those skills in a very short time frame.

What we are really getting into here is the deadly vs sport argument. I can simply not believe that this argument still exists in 2008, it makes me very disheartened. I do not mean that as a shot or put down against anyone. I just no longer have the will to write down the information to debate it one more time. To me it has been proven beyond fact that 'aliveness' is the best method to teach someone to actively use martial techniques in a fight. At least as proven as the theory of gravity.

But for fun, I'll toss out a few links
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ (start with 'Why Aliveness')

For the short version (more of a Q/A primer written by bullshido members) - http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...article&id=254

http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...rch_type=&aq=f (watch deilvery systems and styles, why aliveness, powerful yoga, timing sensitivity and drills, fundementals & performance, hell watch any of em)

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm (some good reading by tomiki which touches on the subject during his talks on randori. In fact I believe he is even pointing to the need for MMA and simply stating that at the time it was impossible to develop such a system due to safety equipment. I can go deeper into this if you like but it is off topic.)

You can also just search up my old posts. If anyone wants to discuss the points made in those videos/articles, I'm happy to.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:32 AM   #7
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Hi Alex, have you actually tried this sparring with bokken against a kendoka?

I'd be really currious to hear the results!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:43 AM   #8
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
In the end, I only know what I have experienced. Personally, I have found that people who don't spar or in a non sport art usually (and in every single case I've personally encountered) are unable to leverage even the most basic of techniques against people who do spar. There are very basic fundamental skills they are missing to actually fight. I'm sure there are ways to teach those skills without sparing, but I'm willing to bet it takes multitude of years to do it. Sparing/resistant drills/competition will give you those skills in a very short time frame.

What we are really getting into here is the deadly vs sport argument. I can simply not believe that this argument still exists in 2008, it makes me very disheartened. I do not mean that as a shot or put down against anyone. I just no longer have the will to write down the information to debate it one more time. To me it has been proven beyond fact that 'aliveness' is the best method to teach someone to actively use martial techniques in a fight. At least as proven as the theory of gravity.

But for fun, I'll toss out a few links
http://aliveness101.blogspot.com/ (start with 'Why Aliveness')

For the short version (more of a Q/A primer written by bullshido members) - http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...article&id=254

http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...rch_type=&aq=f (watch deilvery systems and styles, why aliveness, powerful yoga, timing sensitivity and drills, fundementals & performance, hell watch any of em)

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/jujitsumodernization.htm (some good reading by tomiki which touches on the subject during his talks on randori. In fact I believe he is even pointing to the need for MMA and simply stating that at the time it was impossible to develop such a system due to safety equipment. I can go deeper into this if you like but it is off topic.)

You can also just search up my old posts. If anyone wants to discuss the points made in those videos/articles, I'm happy to.
Actually agree with you. If anyone came to me and said they really wanted to master Aikido and asked what they should do I'd send them off to a Judo dojo for a couple of years and throw in some kickboxing for good measure in the hope they'd basically figure out how to fight. Then they'd have a decent foundation to build their Aikido on.
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:52 AM   #9
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Alex, have you actually tried this sparring with bokken against a kendoka?

I'd be really currious to hear the results!

Best,
Ron
Not with a bokken, I'm not *THAT* mad, I've had enough broken fingers and bumps on the head as it is.
Four or five years ago, just after I started Aikido, I pratted around with a friend who does kendo and it was quite interesting. A shinai is quite a bit faster than a bokken but I did manage to do a couple of interesting things with my taisabaki in between getting bashed on the head.

My friend at one point just shouted "NO TURNING, NO SIDE STEPPING, NO SLIPPING PAST, LEAVE YOUR BACK FOOT WHERE IT IS AND NO ******* ATEMI!" at me.

A friend of mine who I train with used to do fencing and occasionally after Aikido I'd go to fencing with him and we'd cause havoc by not staying on pist. People would lunge at us and then find us standing next to them and be not very happy about it.

All in all my experience tends to be that you're reletively safe as long as you're good at moving and keep moving.
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:03 AM   #10
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

If I remember right, dogbrothers.com has some good vids of guys fighting with bokken and other weapons. It's the closest thing I can think of on the internet to stick fighting to the death.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:35 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Hi Alex,

I'm afraid that I see a disconnect between what your previous post said, and what you are saying now...There seems to be a logical break. You postulate that facing a kendoka with a bokken would be advantagous to the aikidoka, yet

A) you won't try it
B) when you tried it with the shinai, you weren't quite as sucsessfull as

Quote:
I'd rather face a Kendoka with a bokken than an Aikidoka with a Bokken. A kendoka has lots of bad habbits that an Aikidoka doesn't have. For one thing a Kendoka will just stand there and get hit. Bobbing your head out of the way is great when you're just moving the scoring zone six inches out of the way of a shinai but it doesn't cut it (excuse the pun ) against an iwama ryu. You'd get your skull crushed or your shoulder broken.
might indicate. And that is against a shinai! A couple of interesting things is nice, but if your head is getting bashed with the shinai, say 2 out of 3 times, I'd say you are likely to find the same thing against the same person with a bokken.

And 2 out of 3 times getting your head bashed in with a bokken is not very good odds. Especially if the kendoka get's the first two...

Best,
Ron (just fantasizing about the odd, I've really no good clue)

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:42 AM   #12
Timothy WK
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
[re: self-defense] I would submit that most of this is just self confidence, awareness and common sense. These skills (except common sense, you can't teach that) are gained in any sport, marital or not. I do not need martial arts to know when I'm a bad area, I need common sense.
I would argue that the issue is more complex than "common sense".

For example, I used to live in a lower-middle class immigrant neighborhood in Chicago. This neighborhood didn't have the best reputation, particularly when compared with Chicago's newer, posh upper-middle class neighborhoods. But if you looked at the actual crime statistics, the crime rate in my neighborhood was actually much lower than in the up-scale neighborhoods. While gang activity and drug trafficking was certainly common in my old neighborhood, the types of crime the average person fears---random violence, sexual assault, and property crime---was much more prevalent in the posh neighborhoods.

Why? That particular neighborhood was occupied primary with families with strong community ties, which chilled a certain amount of random crime, at least in comparison to the more transient up-scale neighborhoods.

Sometimes the reality of a situation is counter-intuitive. The problem with "common sense" is that it is too often based on emotion, instead of objective fact or experience.

Last edited by Timothy WK : 07-02-2008 at 09:53 AM.

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Old 07-02-2008, 10:10 AM   #13
DH
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Dear Lord
Please save me from
Debates with people entirely inept to support their side of argument with something more than skill with words.
Books written about "combative concepts" by egg heads who have never had to suffer defeat or enjoy victories that have cost them-many times over.
Having to face the unfortunate reality that there are good coaches who have never faced a ring, but never-the-less can teach- as ugly a truth as that is.
Seeing good men who have grown fat on their laurels and are too afraid to accept truths or methods because it may invalidate their own.

Seriously though........,
I don't much care about the debate-I have been having it with so called martial "artists" for longer than some people have been alive -always knowing and showing, that a good wrestler can usually take them apart.
While it is always interesting to read a good writers views on combatives, then er...meet them, I'm much more interested in a good fighters views of combatives-even though maybe not written as well.

Experience can be a cruel teacher.
To the unwise, he gives the test first and the lesson after.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:26 AM   #14
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Dear Baby Jesus,

Please give Dan Hardin the inspiration to write his own book with lots of pictures and perhaps with a few DVD's too so that he may share the blessings you have given him with the rest of us.

Please Baby Jesus Pretty Pretty Please.

William Hazen
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:34 AM   #15
DH
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Oh there are many...many more qualified to do so.
My knowledge may be "special" to some, but as yet,"unfinished" to many others-including myself. Personally, I can't wait to see where I am going to be with ten to twenty more years of research and practice.
I'd have my eyes firmly fixed...past what I can offer you, and what you can get for yourself.
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Old 07-02-2008, 11:54 AM   #16
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While it is always interesting to read a good writers views on combatives, then er...meet them, I'm much more interested in a good fighters views of combatives-even though maybe not written as well.

Experience can be a cruel teacher.
To the unwise, he gives the test first and the lesson after.
I'll offer a counter-balance of sorts:
I grew up with guys who were probably better fighters than me. They actually got in scraps for fun (winning is fun after all), but I'll be hornswagled if they could articulate anything very useful beyond "kick his punk ass."
I'd also like to be a little pedantic and suggest experience has never been a teacher, only a tester. You can look up at the stars and still not see the light. People are generally to preoccupied to bother with much learning...uh oh...my misanthropy is showing.
...or was that my hypocracy?
Oh well, at least I'm stoic so I don't have to care.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:08 PM   #17
Ketsan
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Alex,

I'm afraid that I see a disconnect between what your previous post said, and what you are saying now...There seems to be a logical break. You postulate that facing a kendoka with a bokken would be advantagous to the aikidoka, yet

A) you won't try it
B) when you tried it with the shinai, you weren't quite as sucsessfull as

might indicate. And that is against a shinai! A couple of interesting things is nice, but if your head is getting bashed with the shinai, say 2 out of 3 times, I'd say you are likely to find the same thing against the same person with a bokken.

And 2 out of 3 times getting your head bashed in with a bokken is not very good odds. Especially if the kendoka get's the first two...

Best,
Ron (just fantasizing about the odd, I've really no good clue)
As Dan said, it's a pointless debate, but it's fun so no problem.

In response to A.

An Aikidoka has the advantage, that doesn't make it a wise thing to try. Two guys going at each other full pelt with essentially two product improved baseball bats...............you get the idea. It just doesn't seem like the kind of experiment you get to repeat, never mind repeat enough to find out who's right.
I play paintball too, you wont find me going out looking for gun fights to see if playing paintball gives me an advantage in a shoot out.
Not without decent smoke grenades anyway

B

Two points.

1. I'm way better now than I was five years ago when I originally tried this. I've had the benefit of five years of weapons work and tachi dori.
2. A Shinai isn't a bokken. I can make ten strikes in six seconds with a niten ichi ryu bokken which is about the weight of a shinai.
With a bokken built for contact like an Iwama ryu I can get about one strike a second.
I make the assumption that a kendoka will also be slowed down by using a heavier weapon.

So a slower Kendoka and a better Aikidoka. I reckon I'd have more of a chance against a Kendoka than an Aikidoka, maybe not much more but more. Against some Aikidoka that I've trained with I'd quickly suffer a serious case of death.
I have stuff a Kendoka doesn't have but a good Aikidoka has everything I have but more of it. Actually a lot of Aikidoka have way more than I have.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:38 PM   #18
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
As Dan said, it's a pointless debate, but it's fun so no problem.

Against some Aikidoka that I've trained with I'd quickly suffer a serious case of death.
I have stuff a Kendoka doesn't have but a good Aikidoka has everything I have but more of it. Actually a lot of Aikidoka have way more than I have.
It has been my experience so far with various Iai, Kendo, Aikido, and kali, people, that they have been unable to even keep their weapons; swords, knives, and sticks- in their hands. Never mind what they intended to do with them.
Gives "causing no harm" and "protecting the attacker" a whole new spin-at least in the dojo and in your imagination.
Anyway, still a pointless and silly debate, but -in person- it can be lots of fun outside of kata seeing weapons go flying across the room, or hitting the floor.
"I see strengths and weaknesses in all sorts of places"
"I've met more than a few men with shocked looks on their faces."

So I think it's valuable to try a lot of things, before you judge. Or even before you maybe decide on a single training method.

Last edited by DH : 07-02-2008 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 07-02-2008, 07:28 PM   #19
Kent Enfield
 
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
My friend at one point just shouted "NO TURNING, NO SIDE STEPPING, NO SLIPPING PAST, LEAVE YOUR BACK FOOT WHERE IT IS AND NO ******* ATEMI!" at me.
I'm calling bullshit on this.

Either you're making this up your friend didn't actually do kendo. Turning, side-stepping, and slipping are all essential parts of kendo, and leaving your back foot where it is is contrary to the most basic mechanics of kendo.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 07-02-2008, 08:38 PM   #20
DH
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Kent
He may be talking about just suri-ashi only and not seeing the larger picture.
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:00 PM   #21
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Again, the dog brothers have spared with bokkens, full contact.

They do however wear helmets and hockey gloves. However, I'd assume you can still get knocked out cold (which is always a good test of ability).

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-02-2008, 09:19 PM   #22
DH
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

Sparring 'full contact" with Bokken is meaningless. Were I them, I'd stay with what they know-sticks and knives.
What the dog brothers do or don't do is not the litmus test for all weapons or methodologies. No this is not me slamming them-I like there stuff in many respects. I think there are great lessons to be learned in full contact, but the lessons are by no means equal, and under various circumstances can even be entirely irrelevent.
Case in point: two men with little or no understanding of the design of a katana and what it was for and what the training goals for its use are to be bashing away-is almost meaningless, and proves nothing. They have no knowledge of what CAN or COULD be proved in the first place.
Their exercise has no value to me whatsoever.

Donning helmut and gloves and bashing each other over the head or hands with a bokken has no correlation to two expert or even moderately trained Koryu men doing the same using cutting and striking and using the skills of their ryu in fighting. First up they won't be bashing and they wont be doing anything full-on. Its stupid to expand that much energy when you need to pick people apart and cut.

If that doesn't get through to people- try this. Give the dog brothers their helmut and gloves and a bokken-give the man I select a katana. You may see a different outcome.

There are great lessons to be learned in different venues, they are most assuredly not all the same. I love live training-I love smart training...more.

Last edited by DH : 07-02-2008 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:04 PM   #23
eyrie
 
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

I agree... a bokken is a wooden representation of a single-edged blade weapon.... NOT a club. Sure you can bash each other with a bokken and wield it like a club... but that ain't its purpose... and it misses the point.

A shinai is a training safety innovation, but it's still a representation of a single-edged blade weapon... and NOT intended to be wielded as a club like most modern sport Kendo people do.

Ignatius
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:12 PM   #24
DonMagee
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

My original point was against the argument that kendo has no martial use because it is a sport. I said if you treat their training as a form of stick fighting, then it gains martial aptitude. This is reflected in that alive sparing. Beyond that my dog brothers comments are directed at the comments of being unable to get an accurate representation of ability with a stick because of the ability to ignore hits. I suggest bokken sparing, I was told it wasn't feasible. I gave a example of it actually being done and proving it is feasible.

It should be obvious by now that I'm going to always have this dialog with most people

Person: I can do X.
Me: really, can you do it against an alive opponent?
Person: (assuming they don't say yes) It is too dangerous.
Me: Really now? (I now give example of it being done or dismiss it as worthless).
Person: You just don't understand.
Me: I'm glad.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 07-03-2008, 02:05 AM   #25
Tim Fong
 
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Re: Aikido is a Martial Art and not for self-defense???

http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/bios_knaus.htm

Midway down the page are the comments regarding Japanese weapons vs FMA.
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