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Old 06-19-2008, 08:13 AM   #201
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Despite being a huge Bruce Lee fan, I'm going to resist the temptation to argue in his behalf. Let's try to get back to the Military Training Methodologies.

Traditional Jiu Jitsu was the established Japanese military training method. What does everyone think the best martial art is for this purpose in modern times?
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Old 06-19-2008, 04:46 PM   #202
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Modern Army Combatives Program (MAC-P) and Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) ...what other answer would there be?

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Old 06-19-2008, 04:51 PM   #203
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Modern Army Combatives Program (MAC-P) and Marine Corps Martial Arts Program (MCMAP) ...what other answer would there be?
Are those programs limited to active duty military types?
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Old 06-19-2008, 09:20 PM   #204
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Army Reserve and National Guard....on orders of some type. (Liability).

There are a few civilian schools around the country that have instructors that are certified and teach the curriculum. Suprise, they are mostly decent MMA schools.

There is nothing really unique about the program that would make it special for civilians, many good MMA schools out there will give you the same base.

We simply look at the same training slightly different when applying it in our operating environment.

Other good programs out there: I highly recommend Tony Blauer's company ( www.tonyblauer.com). He has both civilian and military/LEO type courses.

Dog Brothers also have some good stuff. Many others as well.

That said, I think it would be a waste of money until you've got a decent background in some grappling and/or standup clinch/takedown that you can learn and train at a decent BJJ or MMA school.

Again, it is not what you learn in MMA/BJJ that is directly applicable as technique in reality...it is the martial base that you develop to then work on tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) for the military.

That is why it is important to study jiujitsu ala BJJ style.

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Old 06-19-2008, 10:13 PM   #205
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
It is not what you learn in MMA/BJJ that is directly applicable as technique in reality...it is the martial base that you develop to then work on tactics, techniques, and procedures (TTPs) for the military.

That is why it is important to study jiujitsu ala BJJ style.
Damn. I didn't want that to be the answer but I knew it was as soon as you said it. It's not the whole game, but you probably can't get to the level you need to be at without a good ground game. Just for emergencies.
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Old 06-20-2008, 07:45 PM   #206
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

A good ground game isn't just about "just for emergencies". It is a good solid way to train to develop a martial foundation. It is one of the best ways to develop an understanding of how your body should move in response to anothers. Your ability to move is so restricted, that you must move without using muscle or speed or strength. You are also in close touch with your opponent so you can best read his body shifts, weight distribution and focus.

Also, mentally, it is good because you are put under such close in pressure that you develop the ability to react very calmly. Most people freak out when they get that close to another person that is trying to harm them.

Once you get comfortable at this range, training in other ranges in many respects is much easier.

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Old 06-21-2008, 11:01 AM   #207
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

I'd venture that in a combat situation if you get taken down, it's just become an emergency, though. The importance of staying mobile is the central point I'm considering in this thread. I'm doubling down on multiple opponent jiyu waza in my Aiki practice. Although as Dan H. has recently pointed out, I'm really straying toward jujutsu these days.

So I don't mean to trivialize groundwork because I think it's deadly serious, and I'm totally with you on training to maintain your composure. But I think I'd personally better focus on escapes. At 5' 9" and 150 lbs, I'm most likely at too much of a disadvantage on the ground to stay there. Your thoughts on this are most welcome, though.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-21-2008 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:17 AM   #208
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Yes, the ground is an important range of combat to consider as you mention Bill.

As far as multiple opponents, that is really a tough one, but a range and situation that should be practiced as well. One thing though in aikido training that always concerns me is that we don't train multiple opponent randori mostly for reality, but for principle. timing and pressure is not the same in my experiences. So, if you are genuinely trying to train for reality, you have to make sure you are doing it correctly.

You will fail though for a number of reasons, mainly safety considerations. vice the same for your opponents, they will also not succeed for safety reasons. Blauer style equipment is really necessary with proper training to train for these situations correctly. Anything short of that you have many training affects come into play.

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Old 06-21-2008, 11:59 AM   #209
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill, FWIW...I would recommend Roy Dean's video on Blue Belt basics.

I just finished reviewing it, and it is a decent comprehensive video that covers all the basics of BJJ. Also has a good section on Ukemi training. Roy holds yudansha rank in Aikido as well.

http://www.roydeanacademy.com/

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Old 06-21-2008, 01:12 PM   #210
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
You will fail though for a number of reasons, mainly safety considerations. vice the same for your opponents, they will also not succeed for safety reasons. Blauer style equipment is really necessary with proper training to train for these situations correctly.
Would if I could, brother. Again, it's great to have access to that kind of stuff, but I aint joining the Army for it I'll just have to keep realism in mind and do the best I can with sparring pads and mouthguards.

I will definitely take your advice on the BJJ training, though.
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:04 PM   #211
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill I understand not being able to do this, heck it is difficult for us in the Army to do it! As long as you keep the right perspective in mind when you train, you will be okay!

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Old 06-21-2008, 10:44 PM   #212
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Also, mentally, it is good because you are put under such close in pressure that you develop the ability to react very calmly. Most people freak out when they get that close to another person that is trying to harm them.
While it's probably just a difference in experiences, I actually feel more "comfortable" on the ground, grappling with people, than striking. (Not that I'm good at the grappling game). But reacting "calmly" is much easier for me on the ground vs striking, when you have someone much more experienced than you trying to take your head off. I find the "technique" paradigm much easier to pull off on the ground as opposed to in standup(At least in the beginning anyways).

I've always felt that the ground game often gives you more time to react to things than in a proper standup game. Fact is, I think, most people don't do stand-up properly, and I see lots of people in the shooto world take shortcuts to circumvent their shortcomings in the standup game by always taking it to the ground.

Both are needed though, no arguments there.
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Old 06-22-2008, 06:49 AM   #213
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Agree Rob, in training, i'd much rather grapple than punch. I am in much more control of the situation usually.

Alot of standup has to do with your mean to the end and/or your endstate I think. If your boxing you have one endstate. If you are in the cage, shooto, UFC, you might have the same endstate, but your means to the end are different.

In a military situation, it is different when you consider striking, which is why we don't spend too much time on perfecting the art of striking. When you are in empty hand striking range you are either closing distance to subdue your opponent, or you are creating distance to reach another weapon system or to back out of the situation to gain control.

What you are not doing is sitting within that range ala boxing or UFC style and trading blows.

Vice, if you are not "winning" your opponent is doing the same thing to you, that is closing distance, or creating distance.

This is not to say that practicing striking is not a good thing to do. You need to do that as when you are in that range, you need to use it as a tool to close distance, or to create space, or to protect yourself from these things happening to you. If you have good power...it is a good thing and you can use it to damage the guy.

I do think the fact that we are not trying to win points, fight for time, or implement our game plan has considerable weight in the situation.

Striking and weapons also REALLY impact your grappling game. Alot of it will go out the window once you inject these things.

Once again, though just because this occurs does not mean you should, IMO, abandon grappling training.

The best approach I have found, and it is the one MMA gyms use is to train this ranges in isolation, perfecting the skills in each of these ranges, then occassionally you splice them back together and work on your integrated strategies.

Ark has some very interesting training methods for training striking! What I like about it Rob is that you stay on your center, core, or balance maintaining integrity. I think this might be a good thing when you are considering the "reality" piece.

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Old 06-22-2008, 08:47 AM   #214
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
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In a military situation, it is different when you consider striking, which is why we don't spend too much time on perfecting the art of striking. When you are in empty hand striking range you are either closing distance to subdue your opponent, or you are creating distance to reach another weapon system or to back out of the situation to gain control.

What you are not doing is sitting within that range ala boxing or UFC style and trading blows.
Definitely, in fact I think that most standup matches make for entertainment because they emphasize "trading" blows, going for points etc.
but Ark is more about quickly closing the gap and getting into a position to quickly finish someone off. Most strikers study "trading blows" I think simply because they don't have access to these skills, but if they did, it would change the game immensely.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Vice, if you are not "winning" your opponent is doing the same thing to you, that is closing distance, or creating distance.
I agree, which is why it turns into a game.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
This is not to say that practicing striking is not a good thing to do. You need to do that as when you are in that range, you need to use it as a tool to close distance, or to create space, or to protect yourself from these things happening to you. If you have good power...it is a good thing and you can use it to damage the guy.
Beyond power, I think it advantageous to create a movement paradigm that is simply hard to comprehend to the other person. Don't do what the other person does, do something completely different, and you up your chances at coming out on top in a confrontation, and I think that internal skills are a key factor in this strategy.

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I do think the fact that we are not trying to win points, fight for time, or implement our game plan has considerable weight in the situation.
Hehe, a bunch of us learned the hard way last time at an amateur match called K-2. A couple of students put a serious beat down on the other opponents, but still lost because they "didn't kick above the waist more than 6 times." The fact of the matter was that the guys more experienced in striking couldn't put forth their choice weapons, or employ their control of distance, and got stuffed at every move...something the judges didn't like. They wanted to see blows being traded, something the japanese in the full contact karate arena consider a sign of "good spirit"
Long story short, one of the more entertaining fights ended in the Aunkai student losing due to points, unhurt, but the other guy limping like a gopher that had been kicked in the n#$s, only to call throw in the towel 10 secs into the next match because he couldn't go on

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Striking and weapons also REALLY impact your grappling game. Alot of it will go out the window once you inject these things.
No doubt, I don't need your endorsement to imagine the complexities proper weapons training under pressure brings to the game

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Ark has some very interesting training methods for training striking! What I like about it Rob is that you stay on your center, core, or balance maintaining integrity. I think this might be a good thing when you are considering the "reality" piece.
I like that word you use, "integrity." It describes the intent perfectly.
The exercises everyone experienced in the latter half of the seminar at DC is the first stage at building integrity under pressure. Integrity of pressure in the body, integrity of frame, integrity of balance etc.
Once you have constant integrity, then you can focus on usage of the frame under pressure.
Anyways I could go on, but I think you've scoped it out enough to get a general idea to see where Ark is heading with the exercises.
There's any number of augmentations you could do, having guys do them with heavy loads on their backs, restricting them in ways that would seemingly prevent any viable response, thus forcing them to think on how to use the skills under pressure, etc etc.

Good discussion
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Old 06-22-2008, 08:58 AM   #215
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Agree Rob, in training, i'd much rather grapple than punch. I am in much more control of the situation usually....I do think the fact that we are not trying to win points, fight for time, or implement our game plan has considerable weight in the situation.

Striking and weapons also REALLY impact your grappling game. Alot of it will go out the window once you inject these things.
I'm kind of opposite to this- Much more comfortable in standup, which is why it makes so much sense now to get some grappling (and you know I mean solid takedown defense/escape) training. I have a big hole in my game I need to fix asap.

One weapon opportunity you have in real life that you don't have in training is lots of heavy objects to hit with your opponent. Very rarely are you in a big, open area that's free of furniture, walls, cars, trees, etc. So you can imagine doing ikkyo and sweeping your hapless foe into a group of table and chairs headfirst.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-22-2008 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 06-22-2008, 12:59 PM   #216
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

absolutely. Environmental clutter is a big factor. It is also an equal access factor. That is all parties have access to that factor. it is the one who gets there first, or that can establish dominance that gets to use it to his/her advantage.

Which is why, to me it is more important to establish dominance or kuzushi. Or to be able to manage yourself back into a better position if you are being dominated.

Although getting hit in the head with a brick is a hard thing to "manage"!

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Old 06-22-2008, 01:01 PM   #217
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Rob,

that is what is key to me these days..maintaining or regaining integrity or structure. This is a big factor in aikido and I think it is why we study the way we do. That is, to instill good habits of body integrity.

BJJ works on the same principle, which is why I like it. Maintaining or gaining integrity.

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Old 06-30-2008, 01:40 PM   #218
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Rob/Kevin-

Your last posts are exactly the stuff I was talking about. Looking forward to exploring more.
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