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Old 06-26-2008, 03:58 PM   #26
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: How one becomes a master

The most important subject for mastery should be the family unit. The men and women who have mastered being a good parent and spouse deserves more recognition than all of the other masters combined. Here is a quote that I will always remember;
"No other success can compensate for failure in the home."
~David O. McKay
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Old 06-26-2008, 04:57 PM   #27
DH
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Re: How one becomes a master

Rennis
Still doing Hozuin?
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:20 PM   #28
Rennis Buchner
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Rennis
Still doing Hozuin?
Katayama Hoki ryu actually, but yes.
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:22 PM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I have to take exception here. I believe that the moral and ethical are not "nuances" of the spirit of Aikido, but additional requirements to Aikido's mastery. This is precisely why I can never fully agree with Mike and Dan that Aikido's full realization is completely encompassed by some physical skill, no matter how sophisticated.
Two points, starting with your second sentence: I have never and I don't think Dan has ever said or implied that "Aikido's full realization is completely encompassed by some physical skill". I get tired of these completely false attributions.

In reply to your first sentence.... how would you know?

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:27 PM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: How one becomes a master

In terms of how one becomes a master, I am always reminded of a multi-part series that once appeared in "Tai Chi" magazine. A well-known western figure had one of his students write and publish the article called "The Making of a Master" about himself. Henceforth he called himself "Master". Pretty simple, actually.

Mike
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:33 PM   #31
Stefan Stenudd
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Mysterious genius

Wow, this is a thread that earns going on forever.

I guess that it's about the mystery of genius. Some have it, some don't, and some very few have it in amazing abundance. Nature is not fair.
On the other hand, genius certainly is no guarantee of happiness - rather the opposite, judging from many examples in history.

The movie "Amadeus" deals with this theme - genius versus mediocrity. Mozart was indeed a genius, but at the time of his life there were many other composers praised above him - now forgotten. That seems to be true for a majority of geniuses. They are discovered by posterity.
It took El Greco more than 200 years to be recognized. The genius of Shakespeare was doubted by many, for hundreds of years (wasn't another genius, Goethe, one of them?). One of the few geniuses widely praised in his lifetime was Leonardo, another was Picasso.
And so many more people have been praised as geniuses in their lifetimes, only to be forgotten shortly after their final curtain.

I guess that genius is such a mystery that it cannot be recognized by its contemporaries. Maybe true genius is the very least likely to be recognized by its contemporaries? So, we should probably be very hesitant to point out geniuses among the living. The odds are against it.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-26-2008, 06:59 PM   #32
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Re: How one becomes a master

Genius may have nothing to do with it.

Identifying mastery is fraught with illusion. I think it's a mistake to confuse vision, with mastery, or genius with mastery.
Frank Lloyd Wright was a visionary. Many called him a master. In truth he never mastered his use of materials incorporated in, and foundational to (pun intended) expressing his visions. Thus they were rife with flaws. Yet his accolades of "master" remain...long after the repairs bills were paid.

Last edited by DH : 06-26-2008 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 07:47 PM   #33
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Genius may have nothing to do with it.

Identifying mastery is fraught with illusion. I think it's a mistake to confuse vision, with mastery, or genius with mastery.
Frank Lloyd Wright was a visionary. Many called him a master. In truth he never mastered his use of materials incorporated in, and foundational to (pun intended) expressing his visions. Thus they were rife with flaws. Yet his accolades of "master" remain...long after the repairs bills were paid.
All too true.

Moreover.....most of the credit for his best executed ideas and projects should really go to the man who did the work while Wright took the credit: Rudolph Schindler

The best book on his work was done by Judy Sheine, who's no slouch herself....
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:58 PM   #34
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
In reply to your first sentence.... how would you know?
If I knew, I would not be on Aikiweb trying to learn
I do, however, spend a lot of time with people who are excellent, if not masterful, and I try to determine the qualities they possess which I would like to absorb. The most exceptional of these people are so exceptional because they are genuinely kind and responsible, in addition to being martially viable. Like everyone else here, I also know truly wonderful people who are not martially viable, and martially viable people who are scumbags. In my estimation it is the conjunction of the two that is noteworthy in the context of this discussion.
I am aware that my estimation does not hold much value to you, Mike, but this was posted to an open forum and should be moved to the "Voices of Experience" area if regular people should not be posting here.
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Old 06-27-2008, 12:37 AM   #35
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Re: How one becomes a master

I deliberately chose the word "master" because a) it gets people in a sweaty lather b) Grandmaster Flash provoked the idea. Perhaps a better image is "principal" - as in principal dancer in a ballet company. I've been very intrigued at what makes the principal just that much better than the soloist or even the corp dancers. Same question, really.
Which brings to mind someone close to me, who was one of the foremost dancers in the world in the 1980's. She was taken to dance class at her request at the age of 3. The dance mistress was a Russian from the Ballet Russe. The little child one day had - an accident. She wet herself. The ballet mistress was furious and yelled at her that she was not allowed to return to class until she apologized. She was so scared she couldn't speak. Her mother took her home. Every day for the next month her mother took her to class, but she couldn't speak and she was sent away. The doors to the studio would close and she would drop to the floor, laying her cheek on the floor, one eye to the gap between floor and door. And she would lie there, watching the slivers of feet moving too-and-fro. After a month, her mother was fed up and told her that if she didn't speak, she would never bring her back. She looked the teacher in the eyes and apologized that day. As I posted in the beginning, only death will stop passion and genius. (How many three year old children will return to a scary, angry old woman's place and then rejected, day after day, lie on the floor to catch the flicker of feet through the gap of a door?)
The word genius is, I believe, similar to the Greek word daemon. My understanding is that contrary to the modern belief that we come into the world a blank slate, are educated and become someone, the Greek idea was that our daemon (NOT demon) was a spiritual essence that lived us, the same way a tree is already in the acorn. Those genius', those principals, have a daemon that will, as long as the body is alive, demand that it's destiny be fulfilled.
Best

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Old 06-27-2008, 01:38 AM   #36
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Re: How one becomes a master

Hi Ellis,

I have to admit that I haven't been reading this thread closely but I still wanted to share two thoughts (not necessarily related). First, with your initial post I immediately thought of your wife so apparently that train of thought was communicated somehow. Second, I would like to share again how much I enjoy your writing or perhaps, more specifically, story telling. Once again, I wasn't following the thread closely so my appreciation isn't focused on the veracity of the point you may, or may not be trying to make, it is simply an appreciation for your ability to spin a yarn in a captivating and enjoyable manner. I like it. And I might add that it goes well with Guinness!

BTW, my wife is has a Ph.D. in neuroscience from your alma mater and is also a professional science writer and a (soon to be famous) fantasy novelist. In the same manner that you muse on the subject of what makes a master (ballerina for example) I muse on what makes a master (writer for example.)

Blah, blah, blah, I am not a master writer . . . just trying to stoke the flames of your fire. Looking forward to more posts and perhaps a book in the near-ish future.

Best,
Allen

~ Allen Beebe
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Old 06-27-2008, 03:36 AM   #37
Stefan Stenudd
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Inheritance or environment

Quote:
Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
I've been very intrigued at what makes the principal just that much better than the soloist or even the corp dancers.
A relative of mine who was a ballet dancer told me that the difference between chorus and soloists was mostly just hard work and devotion. Dancers of the ensemble who were not satisfied with being in the chorus had to put in a lot of extra effort, which was almost guaranteed to make them soloists soon enough. And they had to keep on with the same devotion, in order to stay soloists.

On the other hand, that is not enough of an explanation for cases like Nurejev and Baryshnikov (however to spell their names)...

Master or genius? Both words provoke our modern sense of egality, I think. To master something is usually the result of hard training, whereas genius can seem to appear out of a whim.
Talent is often lazy and impatient - finding the shortcuts, not caring to repeat the ways of old. Maybe what we are searching for here is a combination of master and genius - someone who is impatient about the irrelevant, but very dedicated and persistent about what matters to him or her.

In psychology, there has been a long and sometimes passionate discussion about what is inherited through the genes, and what is the result of the environment. We have to say that there's a mix.
And then there is the injustice in society, as to who get to explore their talents, and who have little or no opportunity to do so.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 06-27-2008, 07:46 AM   #38
Dennis Hooker
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Re: How one becomes a master

To define a master is rather simple in the terms below but is that what you are talking about? Or are you speaking of how one is considered a master by others of his/her peers. I would know a good pianist but I would not know a master. I would know what I considered to be a good painter but I would not know if he were a master. Given more that four decades in studying and training budo under various teachers I do believe I can recongize a person that has mastered ceratin elements of some arts and perhaps one or two that have mastered their art in total (IMO). But frankly I could care not care less if I were not consider a master of anything. It is the journey that fascinates me.

Definitions of master on the Web:

maestro: an artist of consummate skill; "a master of the violin"; "one of the old masters"
overlord: a person who has general authority over others
victor: a combatant who is able to defeat rivals
directs the work of others
headmaster: presiding officer of a school
an original creation (i.e., an audio recording) from which copies can be made
an officer who is licensed to command a merchant ship
be or become completely proficient or skilled in; "She mastered Japanese in less than two years"
someone who holds a master's degree from academic institution
overcome: get on top of; deal with successfully; "He overcame his shyness"
dominate: have dominance or the power to defeat over; "Her pain completely mastered her"; "The methods can master the problems"
an authority qualified to teach apprentices
chief(a): most important element; "the chief aim of living"; "the main doors were of solid glass"; "the principal rivers of America"; "the principal example"; "policemen were primary targets"; "the master bedroom"; "a master switch"
passkey: key that secures entrance everywhere
have a firm understanding or knowledge of; be on top of; "Do you control these data?"

Dennis Hooker: (DVD) Zanshin and Ma-ai in Aikido
https://www.createspace.com/238049

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Old 06-27-2008, 07:54 AM   #39
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Re: How one becomes a master

IMHO, I found George Leonard's book on Mastery a good read.

He suggested that its the training through the learning plateaus that change the shape of the usual up/down learning curve into a step configuration in which the plateaus become the new baseline so the skill aquisition continues to rise.

While natural ability is great, being coach-able and disciplined can take you further.

So, to those who said that the could turn into the "How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" thread, sorry.

Until again,
Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-27-2008, 08:49 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
I do, however, spend a lot of time with people who are excellent, if not masterful, and I try to determine the qualities they possess which I would like to absorb. The most exceptional of these people are so exceptional because they are genuinely kind and responsible,
I dunno... when I was in my late teens and early twenties I was in Japan, Okinawa, Philippines, Vietnam, etc., and I read and talked all I could about martial arts and martial-arts masters. My impression of most of the "names" in martial history is that they tended to be functional and the student had to prove himself. Certainly, Ueshiba was not remembered because of his sparkly kindness and personality.

If anything, the implication in a lot of martial anecdotes is that if you're looking for someone to be your pal and take care of you solicitously, the odds would seem to be stacked against you among the really good teachers.

Personally, I took the best that I could get. Generally, the friendliest, nice-guys tended to be the people that knew the least. The ones that were the best are all still my good friends, but that's mainly because they could afford to be friends with me. What do I mean by that?

That means that first of all I worked hard to do what they asked of me so that I had results they could be proud of in me. If I was the nicest guy in the world and talked all the smoothe-talk, but I couldn't perform what I'd been taught, then they would have been smart enough to realize that I simply wasn't serious and they, with their reputations, could not afford to have an unskilled "nice guy" claiming to be their student.

They're all "nice guys" (the ones who really taught me the useful stuff), BTW. But you don't know that until you really get in the door. The rest is for show and to keep the wrong people at their distance. It sounds like a few of my teachers wouldn't make the cut for you, Benjamin, but personally I wonder if maybe you aren't simply focusing on the wrong things because you have a fixed idea of how the world should work for you.

Finding and matching up with a good teacher is a very hard thing to do. I've spent more time looking for the right guys than I could say. While I was looking for the people who could teach me what I wanted to know, that's all I looked for... I didn't have a personality test that they had to pass before I would accept their knowledge.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:50 AM   #41
Keith Larman
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Re: How one becomes a master

Just fwiw...

I spent about 17 years working in psychometrics -- mental skills measurement. I'd write tests, validate them, do studies, do job analyses, all that stuff. Over those years I often thought about those who seemed, well, special. Common features of those people were incredibly hard work. Often there was a sort of obsessive compulsive approach to their area. But it wasn't somehow a sign of mental illness, more a person who had found something that meshed almost completely with the way they thought.

It is hard to explain, but there is almost always a degree of self-selection in certain things. Some people gravitate to computer programming because they're wired such that they're good at it. Most don't start exploring something new unless there is an attraction of sorts. And that attraction has to do with how it meshes with other aspects of your make-up.

So we've all met those with "natural ability". They just seem more "built" for doing some particular thing well. The oft given examples of these people are usually athletes. Gretzky's ability to know where the open person was on the ice before they knew they were open themselves. And often behind him. Same with Michael Jordan.

The other factor you always see in these people is an incredible focus on their work, exactly what Mr. Amdur is talking about with these people. I particularly liked the example of the little ballerina. How is it a 3-year-old is that focused on doing something? I'd submit that part of it is that it "speaks" to her. Because she was born with a wiring that makes that sort of thing an inexorable force in her life.

But there always has to be a combination of things. One time I was working on a job analysis for a very large company and was interviewing some of their top programmers. There was one guy who was simply incredible. Odd fella, but you'd swear he could probably beam his thoughts directly into a computer. All he did was program. It drove him. The problem solving completely consumed him. When he ran into something particularly difficult he couldn't let it go until he'd solved the problem. He was wired that way. No life other than that terminal... But he was happy. Very happy. And completely driven.

Anyway, on the flight home after interviewing the guy I was reading the biography of Richard Feynman by Gleick called "Genius". I was struck by this quote:

Quote:
There are two kinds of geniuses: the 'ordinary' and the 'magicians'. An ordinary genius is a fellow whom you and I would be just as good as, if we were only many times better. There is no mystery as to how his mind works. Once we understand what they've done, we feel certain that we, too, could have done it. It is different with the magicians. Even after we understand what they have done it is completely dark. Richard Feynman is a magician of the highest calibre.
Mark Kac
I laughed because that is exactly the sort of thinking I was dealing with in the programmer. And it is apropos to many of the "scary good" people in most anything, martial arts included.

I would point out that these "magicians" themselves often don't know how they do what they do. Ask them how they came up with the answer they did and they'll likely tell you something, but if you look closely you'll often find the answer incomplete. Or post hoc.

So the rest of us try to do what these guys do, but it always seems out of reach. Or it seems we're doing an "approximation" or a caricature. And in a real sense that *is* all we're doing.

and fwiw, Gladwell's book "Blink" also tends to come to mind here. Most of it probably isn't relevant, but I'm thinking of the aspect of how "experts" are able to make virtually precognitive judgements on very complex things. You don't get there without intense work. Nor do you get there without the aptitude in the first place.

So some of us will never get there no matter how hard we work. A few might. But we can safely say without the hard work and focus it simply won't happen... Which means in today's day and age prospects are quite dim, eh?

Sorry, just random musings on the topic.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 06-27-2008 at 09:53 AM. Reason: clarification

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Old 06-27-2008, 12:43 PM   #42
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Re: How one becomes a master

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
...
I would point out that these "magicians" themselves often don't know how they do what they do. Ask them how they came up with the answer they did and they'll likely tell you something, but if you look closely you'll often find the answer incomplete. Or post hoc.
.
So true, and so crucial, and so not understood.
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Old 06-27-2008, 05:55 PM   #43
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Re: How one becomes a master

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That Ueshiba, rather than being a Nelson Mandela type, (facing down the Kempetai and refusing to teach at military and spy schools), was an ordinary man of his times, who cooperated with the military, bowed his head when told to and taught soldiers and spies to maim and kill, and accepted his gov't imprisoning, torturing and murdering some of his "brothers and sisters" in Omotokyo - does that make his martial art any less skillful? It adds nuance to considerations of the moral dimensions that aikido professes
Choosing not to create conflict with political powers isn't the same as condoning their actions, perception of moral depravation with Ueshiba Sensei fails to understand one of aikido's highest principles -- non-resistance, a compassionate expression of moral integrity. Anyone learning aikido acquires more ability to injure or kill, but with the intention of never having to. Attempting to tarnish the founder's character and life's work has no ground outside of your subjective view -- imo, especially when citing "inconsistencies" to Ueshiba Sensei before he fully realized aikido post-war.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:09 PM   #44
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Re: How one becomes a master

The age old staple question, how to become a master.

First, is the word master interchangable with genius, or not. In my opinion a genius are those individuals of exceptional intelligence
like the first person who invented the wheel, the first wid-wife, the first healer in the tribe, Archimedes, Leonardo Davinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Plato, George Washington Carver, Einstein, Stephanie Kwolek, Marie Curie, Edison, Patricia Bath, M.D.

Antonius Stradivarius didn't invent the violin, he mastered the crafting of it. Master, is someone skilled or proficient, since we are talking Aikido and martial arts, O'Sensei would be an example, and so would builders, artists, craftsmen, etc. I would say most martial artists unless they invented a weapon like a bow, or strategies (battle plans etc.) of war such as Sun Tzu. If they are better then others at it, or others think they are, then they are masters.

How to get to mastery, is it unwavering dedication, un-dieing passion, long hours of exhausting practice and nothing else in life. Or is it honing skills and experienced gained over-time like a master welder, quilter, negotiator, orator, salesperson, culinary, entertainers, sports figures, etc. Not all masters get there the same way. Some don't start as child prodigies, or have unmeasurable passion, drive and sacrifice of an Olympian.

On how to become a master is the dedication to honing skills and be more proficient in the art or craft with results that are above or beyond most others in the field. In some arts and crafts that takes a life time. In other a few years. It also depends on the aptitude and talent of the individual and the field. And then what level is recognized as mastery also plays a part. Martial arts is subjective on how to become a master, because martial arts don't produce an object to be judged.

Has the word master lost it's punch where all you need to do is print it on a business card and vola your a master? Yep.

Should mastery and genius be absent of good character, sanity, and morals and ethics? Or is mastery and genius a carte blanche for egomania, eclectic and anti-social behavior. Or does being crazy come bundled with genius and mastery. It seems that those in the arts come bundled with poor character, lack of morals and ethics, over-indulgence, eclectic, egomaniacs, and anti-social behavior. Sports has it too though society expects sports players to be role models, but not for artists. In both if your are good your behavior is tolerated. Van Gogh was a nut, but Tiger Woods isn't. Yet, Bobby Fisher was a nut. There are women who where great people and some where not. It seems morality and character have to do with attention, wanting to be in the public eye. Whether insanity etc. behavior is bundled with mastery and genius doesn't seem to be a prerequisite, but it does happen to drive many famous masters or geniuses beyond the abilities of everyone else. It is fair to mentioned that there are many well adjusted masters or genius in and out of the spot light. It's that we find the tortured souls who are of mastery and genius more interesting and intriguing.

Yes, what they all have is passion for what the do, they may or may not started as children, but their passion is real whether it be healthy or unhealthy. Be coming a master is subjective and takes work and a degree of passion, but genius doesn't. Genius is something you either have or not, and no amount of passion, hardwork, dedication etc. is going to give you genius if you don't have it.

I know of geniuses who do Aikido, and they have mastered it so a degree. I know of geniuses who can't master Aikido at all. But, those who have really have mastered Aikido or other martial arts worked hard, had a passion, and dedication. But not everyone requires the same amount of passion, hard work, dedication, and time. And some have a greater talent or comes more naturally then others so the road to mastery is quicker. Some have access to great teachers, while other don't. For those lucky enough to have a great teacher, the time, and the money the road is quicker as well. I am not saying you need to be as dumb as a brick to master Aikido. Yes, you need intelligence, but it doesn't require a person to be a Mensa. It requires the intelligence for the complexities and intracies of Aikido.

The words master and genius are used way too loosely that there is little significance anymore to these words anymore. In the field of Aikido and martial arts once you get to mastery, then what? You start your own style, you become famous on the internet, and you have a hord of people wanting what you know, wanting you to teach them, staring at seminars, and they bow to you admiring your ability the wish they had. That's it. It doesn't get you those million dollar endorsements, special treatments at the clubs or restaurants or paparazzi following you everywhere you go. Being a master in Aikido isn't much fame or fortune, outside of the field of Aikido in most places.

Last edited by Buck : 06-27-2008 at 09:17 PM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:29 PM   #45
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Re: How one becomes a master

The hardest thing to do is master yourself, and an art. Moral and ethics differ from place to place, but there is universal acceptance of what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. Like no one in the world likes an jerk- I would prefer to use a strong word. Anti-social behavior or bad character like stealing, drunkard, lying, cheating etc. are not widely accepted in most places. You are usually not well liked in public or society.

I think a great master has acceptable character but it isn't required. The better person you are and not a jerk and a real genuine person the more people will be loyal, dedicated, follow and more supportive of you as their master. You also will have a better reputation and respected and be in less isolation. This is really true for Aikido.

I want to combine my two thought from my first post up there and this one that the benefit of being a master is also a boost to the ego, it feels good that people are attracted to you.

Last edited by Buck : 06-27-2008 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 10:25 PM   #46
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Re: How one becomes a master

"Tenryu Hamaki: wrote:
Quote:
Choosing not to create conflict with political powers isn't the same as condoning their actions, perception of moral depravation with Ueshiba Sensei fails to understand one of aikido's highest principles -- non-resistance, a compassionate expression of moral integrity. Anyone learning aikido acquires more ability to injure or kill, but with the intention of never having to. Attempting to tarnish the founder's character and life's work has no ground outside of your subjective view -- imo, especially when citing "inconsistencies" to Ueshiba Sensei before he fully realized aikido post-war.
Dear whoever you really are: It was an interesting discussion - and still can be, if you would kindly send your breathy outrage to another thread. One tarnishes another's reputation when one lies about the person - one tarnishes one's own when it is the truth that one has to be ashamed of. And as for non-resistance, Doshu broke out laughing in a presentation when someone asked him about his father's pacifism, stating that aikido is not pacifistic at all, and regarding people getting hurt in practice, "After all, it is a martial art." Doshu also recalled being bullied as a child by some European kids, and his father came running out, yelling, to rescue him, only to slip in the mud.
Oh, and the "fully realized aikido post-war." I'm aware of some rather flamboyant moral failings that Mr. Ueshiba enacted post-war, but unlike you, who apparently needs a god to create aikido instead of a man, that makes the art more interesting to me. And anyway, I can only assume that you are not Japanese, despite your nom-de-plume, because any Japanese knows that the gods are immoral as the men and women they create, just on a larger scale. (Yes, I've just tranished the reputation of Susano-oo - flayed piebald colt and all).
Best
Ellis Amdur
Oh, and please, if you want to debate this further, please start another thread. This one's about genius, not puerile fantasies of flawless demi-gods who non-resist.

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Old 06-27-2008, 11:08 PM   #47
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Re: How one becomes a master

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
...This one's about genius, not puerile fantasies of flawless demi-gods who non-resist.
Genius? I thought it was about mastery. I've delineated Genius and Mastery, with the former -IMHO-not being a necessary requirement to the later. You disagree?
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Old 06-27-2008, 11:39 PM   #48
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Re: How one becomes a master

Genius, mastery, principal - Why interrupt a screed about someone else with nitpicking? You want some too? My friend, Dan H. picking on someone else for being imprecise in language?
As I wrote above, genius is, I believe, related to the concept of daemon. I never used the word "mastery." I started with "master." The quality of a "master" - is that they are, in some sense, possessed. No, they never arrive - blah, blah, blah. Nureyev had that magic quality referred to in the post above. Takeda did. Ueshiba did. Probably Horikawa was the "ordinary kind."
Want another master? Ah genius? Anyway, look up Artis the Spoonman. A difficult character, to say the least. Yet, I saw him blow some of the top drummers in the world completely off a stage - it was supposed to be a jam, and they just stopped, silent for one-half hour as he played the bones (and kitchen utensils) all over his body, with blood running down his head, the silvery rattle of syncopated rhythms running from marrow to skin, running in poly-rhythms from the bones in his hands to the bones in his flesh, bare torso, mohawk headed, bad-tempered, anarchistic street muscian, stunning the best in the world - stone silent.
If that isn't enough, look up Baby Gramps. (Bet you folks didn't know that the way Popeye the Sailor used to sing was the remnants of a street music style among rough-neck dockworkers and sailors at the end of the 19th century - and Baby Gramps is the last who knows the tune).
Best

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 06-27-2008 at 11:42 PM.

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Old 06-28-2008, 12:00 AM   #49
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Artis the Spoonman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3TFkvEmBYM

AND BABY GRAMPS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAkEn9ie-Vk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11-ps...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNcAH...eature=related

Last edited by Ellis Amdur : 06-28-2008 at 12:09 AM.

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Old 06-28-2008, 12:02 AM   #50
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Re: How one becomes a master

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Ellis Amdur wrote: View Post
Genius, mastery, principal - Why interrupt a screed about someone else with nitpicking? You want some too? My friend, Dan H. picking on someone else for being imprecise in language?
Best
Sure do your best
And yes, I also expect good grammar, punctuation and spelling…
from you.
I'm apparently exempt.

So you apparently see genius and being a master as interchangable since the the happless chap is merely expressing the will of his Daemon? I can't go there.

I see it as personal vision, preparation, talent, and work ethic. Though laudable, I see little to compare the mastery of the guy playing the spoons or a master carpenter or blues player, to mastery of a higher order involving true genius and as well as the mastery of a skill.
But were I to buy into the daemon theory; Einstein and a guy playing the spoons were equal, simply in that they were fulfilling their required roles
Pass.
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