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Old 06-17-2008, 10:01 PM   #76
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

On-Ko-Chi-Shin. Gosh, this is invisible culprit of this discussion where some of us will never see eye to eye. That is ok. No one has to get ugly and nasty. Hey, we all have different opinions. I am just glad that am into solving problems. I am kicking it from here.

Last edited by Buck : 06-17-2008 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 06-17-2008, 10:33 PM   #77
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Let me review,

Bernath Sensei said, "I started Aikido in 1973. I was 20 years old. I wanted to be able to protect myself so I was interested in taking a martial art. I visited a couple of karate dojos, but they were practicing exactly what I wanted to avoid, direct physical confrontation. I wanted to be able to protect myself without a confrontation. Then I saw an Aikido demonstration in a park. It was energetic and intriguing. It looked like a powerful dance. I signed up, telling myself -- I'm going to take this just one month at a time. Aikido was much more complicated than I expected. But, I'm still going, just taking one month at a time. --- Penny Bernath Sensei Read interview in full.

Here we have a successful Sensei who happens to be a women. Now in bold is what I want to focus on because it really is a good example of problems, and how personal issue(s) solved those problems. By focusing on personal issue(s), it runs interference to doubt, being unsure, not being over-whelmed.

She seen Aikido as dance, something she related to in contrast to karate. I made this point before on how to attract women to the dojo. By seeing Aikido as a dance and not being confrontational like Karate created a great interest. She looked to Aikido for self-defense - the personal issue that had to exist and the motivator.

I think a huge barrier in Aikido is business as usual attitude, don't change a thing, don't seriously address issues and find real the solutions to the problems beyond the default of cliques, and bable. I think that is what keeps many women out of Aikido. Aikido has the ability to be more accomodating e.g. Bernath's reasons to take Aikido instead of another martial art.

Last edited by Buck : 06-17-2008 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:24 PM   #78
Keith Larman
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Phil:

A quote from a movie I watched last night. It comes to mid after reading your various responses to numerous people, mostly women themselves, trying to explain what they perceive as, well, what seems to be a non-issue for them.

Quote:
My father used to say: "The first time someone calls you a horse you punch him on the nose, the second time someone calls you a horse you call him a jerk but the third time someone calls you a horse, well then perhaps it's time to go shopping for a saddle."
From Lucky Number Slevin...

Just fwiw.

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Old 06-18-2008, 01:48 PM   #79
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Why are so many hung up on that. I can't wrap my mind around it. Am I caught in some kind of nightmare!
Cough...

You are the only one in this conversation(?) that seems hung up...

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 06-18-2008, 04:30 PM   #80
lbb
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Okay. Here's what Anne Marie said:

Quote:
Ummmm, Buck, I disagree with your assertion that women who practice aikido have personal issues or reasons and somehow that is the "answer" to the "woman issue" in aikido.
Here's what Philip said in response:
Quote:
Ahhh... Anne Marie (deep sigh) no, no, no, you got it all wrong.
Leaving the deep signs out of it, just what did she get "all wrong"?

Here's what Anne Marie said:

Quote:
Because if there are any personal issues they are not different from a man's experience. And we enter the dojo and continue our train for similar reasons as men. And men, too, have personal issues as well.
Here's what Philip replied:

Quote:
Ohhh...Anne Marie, I can't say it again or any other way. It is about getting past barriers for solving problems in different ways in the dojo that women can internally relate to. It's not about women vs. men.
Where, exactly, did Anne Marie say that it was "about women vs. men"?

Quote:
Why are so many hung up on that. I can't wrap my mind around it. Am I caught in some kind of nightmare!
Given your evident propensity to fabricate statements and attitudes that you then attribute to others, I find it highly ironic that you accuse others of being "hung up". If you're "caught in some kind of nightmare", it is entirely of your own making. Start listening to what people are actually saying, let go of the need to make them into foils for whatever argument you're trying to make, and I predict the nightmare will end in short order.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:43 PM   #81
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

WOW can't believe all the negative energy and discouraging words, it can't be Aikido.

I am glad Aikido is different for me. Aikido for me is positive energy and discouraging others isn't love.

A women I knew was shy and introverted, timid in here approach to training even though she finally took Aikido as a way of protecting herself after a terrible incident on the advice of a friend.

The dojo treated this special person no differently then others. They approached her in a traditional manner and really didn't get in touch with her. They gave her the standard lines to her concerns and issues because she was timid.

Unknown to the dojo, this young lady was raped. She was in a shopping mall parking lot. She was walking to her car while her attacker waited behind another car unseen by her. As she approached her and remotely opened the driver side door, her attacker bolted toward her in a split second coming up from behind her slamming her head into the car knocking her silly. The victim dazed and confused was quickly shoved in her car and driven away where she was violated.

The dark cloud of her life loomed over her during her first couple days of being in the dojo. The dojo approached her and treated her has a typical Aikido student. Never having a good connection to the dojo, feeling Aikido wasn't what she needed the women left.

I wonder how many of these women with such hidden needs leave Aikido, because others want them to experience Aikido in a way they think it should be. Aikido is in constant change and is changing, and was founded on change.Why should it not change.

To be at odds with new ideas isn't what I think Aikido is about. Aikido is also about love and not ugly negativity. I don't approve of that type of thing, if I call myself an Aikidoka. I want to help people and not beat them down because I disagree.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:14 PM   #82
rob_liberti
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

I'm sticking to my radioactivity theory on this one.

It just so happens that the truth happens to work out to be negative to your perspective. It doesn't mean they are just posting to be negative; it really can be that they are just speaking the obvious truth which you don't like. The persecution complex deal is getting old.

Rob
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:49 PM   #83
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

When I speak of change, I am talking about is applying different tools on how to motivate women. How to get them past barriers that may otherwise prevent women from enjoying Aikido.

Understanding women work better when personal issue(s) are involved, maybe no different them men, but women require a different degree or approach can only help and not hurt. It could solve many problems women face.

I have always believed that the greatest reward is in helping people. It is easy to find an enemy in a person you disagree with because you have nothing meaningful to contribute. It is more difficult to find understanding in disagreement, thus finding a friend rather then a foe when you disagree.

Last edited by Buck : 06-18-2008 at 10:53 PM.
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Old 06-18-2008, 11:16 PM   #84
Janet Rosen
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

A dojo is not a therapeutic community.
People come in with lots of baggage, some very visible, some not.
We can be sensitive to an individual man or woman's physical or psychological limitations to some extent but we cannot take the responsibility to solve people's problems or heal them.
Again, I don't see this as a gender-based issue.

Buck, I don't think you are "wrong" or "bad" but I do think you are trying to address or solve a problem that you have defined in a way that many of us don't see as a gender issue per se.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 06-18-2008 at 11:19 PM. Reason: clarity?

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Old 06-19-2008, 07:14 AM   #85
lbb
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
To be at odds with new ideas isn't what I think Aikido is about.
If what you were saying were a new idea, perhaps I wouldn't be at odds with it. As it is, telling women what they think, what they feel, and what their issues are is very old hat indeed.

(hey, is telling women what they think aikido? just wondering...)
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:10 AM   #86
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
WOW can't believe all the negative energy and discouraging words, it can't be Aikido.

I am glad Aikido is different for me. Aikido for me is positive energy and discouraging others isn't love.
To me, aikido is often Tough Love (TM).
You contiinue to make up what other people are saying, you don't express clearly your ideas, and you project your own issues on others. If you don't like the box you are in, put it aside.

As others have said, aikido can't be therapy in the medical sense for someone who has been through that horrible experience. The person you refer to should seek counseling from a professional for her trauma (or whatever else works for her). Now, in combination with that, aikido keiko may provide an excellent release for her, and it could even help with issues around feeling powerless, close physical contact, and other things. But that will be up to her to shape and direct. Such spiritual/psychological benefits come from aikido because the individual decides to link the issues to the keiko and to work on them. No one else can do it for you, just like no one else can take them ukemi for her.

Quote:
To be at odds with new ideas isn't what I think Aikido is about. Aikido is also about love and not ugly negativity. I don't approve of that type of thing, if I call myself an Aikidoka. I want to help people and not beat them down because I disagree.
I haven't seen any new ideas to be at odds with. I haven't seen any "ugly negativity". I haven't seen anyone "beating someone down". You are an adult...stand up, take responsiblity for your own words and perspectives, present your thoughts clearly, and you won't be misunderstood.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-19-2008, 08:25 AM   #87
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Oh, PS...

The folks who run some of the AKI dojo in the US often combine counseling services and aikido keiko...check out the links for their sites, and maybe contact Steve Trinkle to ask specific questions about how they link aikido keiko and counseling services.

http://www.akisb.com/

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-20-2008, 01:05 PM   #88
Trish Greene
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

I am taking a risk by throwing my hat into the conversation here..

I started Aikido because I wanted to learn how to defend myself if I were ever attacked. I didn’t want to be a “victim” and I wanted to show my daughter what a “strong” women was. Unfortunately she didn’t take to the art like I did. I (was?) one of those women who would look you in the eye, stick my chin out and dare you to tell me no I couldn’t do something because of my gender. I could do anything that you could do, andmaybe better. I tended to gravitate my life towards areas that were considered “male dominated” ( my job, and other areas of my life).

I continued with Aikido because I fell in love with the joy of the art. That understanding gave me the ability to clear my mind and walk away from the preconceived notions I had about who I was supposed to be in this world. There was no reason that I “had” to be as mentally confrontational as I have been driving my life to be so far. In the dojo, I was simply another person on the mat getting sweaty and enjoying every minute of it! The guys never treated me any differently ( I was the only adult female there for a long time) – we were just uke and nage.

Now my two cents on why more women don’t train – it’s called LIFE. There is dinner to be made, kids to help out with homework, running the kids to soccer practice, PTA Meetings, etc etc etc. We are so used to nurturing others, that we do not take the time to nurture our selves. I think it is hilarious that I equate nurturing to being thrown around on the mat by some big blokes!

Ok, those are my thoughts – rip away…

"Aikido is nothing but an expression of the spirit of Love for all living things."

Morihei Ueshiba
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:08 PM   #89
lbb
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Trish Greene wrote: View Post
Now my two cents on why more women don't train -- it's called LIFE. There is dinner to be made, kids to help out with homework, running the kids to soccer practice, PTA Meetings, etc etc etc. We are so used to nurturing others, that we do not take the time to nurture our selves. I think it is hilarious that I equate nurturing to being thrown around on the mat by some big blokes!
I think that this is one of the main two reasons why more people in general don't train -- aikido or any other martial art requires a lot of time. People will take a month-long or six-weeks intro class and train a couple nights a week, but when they think about giving up a couple evenings of every week indefinitely, it's a different matter -- they can make that time on a short-term basis, but don't want to do it permanently. And, as you say, in a family situation, even today a woman is likely to have a larger percentage of the child-care/family-care responsibilities (whether pressed on her or assumed), which would leave her with less time to train.
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Old 06-20-2008, 02:39 PM   #90
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

You know, now that I think about it, back when I was training 5 or 6 times a week, there is no way I could have done that if I'd been maried, or even dating seriously. Nobody would have put up with that! Now my body wouldn't put up with that...life has already broken me in for the wife!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 06-20-2008, 08:22 PM   #91
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Trish Greene wrote: View Post
I am taking a risk by throwing my hat into the conversation here.
I applaud your courage in taking a risk, it was great...Bravo!

Last edited by Buck : 06-20-2008 at 08:26 PM.
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