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Old 06-16-2008, 05:34 PM   #176
Aikibu
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
But you don't just get in and drive one.... you have to build your own car (develop these skills for yourself) in this case. The real question is "what kind of car are you trying to build for yourself" and, in my opinion, before you can do that you have to understand the general principles of how a car works, the different kinds of engines, SUV versus passenger car, and so on. So when someone says "let's go look at this Fort Pinto and try it out against a tank to see if cars are any good"..... well, you get the idea. Well, I don't mind if you disagree... that's what discussions are for. Those "trivialities" though, are very valid differences that you should bear in mind, in the important cases. If you mean that there's little difference between low-grade Japanese Aikido and low-grade western Aikido, I heartily agree. But it's not the point that I think you should consider.
I have been to Fort Pinto and it was a small and tinny place.
Good Point Mike and I agree...

Quote:
About 3 years ago I decided that just to cover my butt before I sat down to write up some stuff on internal strength, I thought I should visit Aikido, some karate, and a couple of other Japanese arts to clarify just how far behind the Japanese really were in those skills. I've mentioned that before. What I found, from a lot of probing (and challenging) conversation is a lot of indicators that I totally misunderstood how much the Japanese knew about this sort of training. So I started looking into it even deeper and this stuff is (or was, in some cases; I see the vestigial exercises, but I don't see any good examples of the skills) and it's pretty stunning how much is there.
Agreed However given my experiance is the same in Chinese Arts as yours is in the Japanese ones It's stunning to understand how little I know of "what to look for" as opposed to whats there Since the only filter I have is the one given to me by my Japanese Shihan/Yudansha and my own efforts Lets call it "evidence of things not seen."

Quote:
One of the side investigations I did was into "kiai", which Ellis got me interested in with his discussions on an early judo book. As a result, I ordered one of Donn Draeger's writings on Kiai from the Hoplology Institute. In that paper (which I can't spot on my bookshelf at the moment) Draeger mentions some stuff about ki and how little the Japanese know about it. How they just sit there with straight faces when there's a visiting Chinese demonstration (which tells you Chinese visit all the time, even when China is "closed"). Further remarks by Draeger indicate that he clearly doesn't know much about the topic. Yet how could that be, if there were a lot of arts that I know have obviously had some unbroken line of transmission? Is it possible that Draeger, nice gaijin that he was, was simply not shown the hidden stuff? Can you imagine that? I.e., don't shrug off the differences between Asian and "western" knowledge of what's in an art or arts.
Well some folks might consider Don an expert because he was one of the first Westerners to write about the Japanese Martial Arts but being first does not make him an expert in my eyes.So there is no need to "imagine" that at all. LOL For Aikido's Internal Experiance I suggest perhaps having a long conversation with Bob Nadeau who is one of the few still living "Westerners" in the US to have experianced O'Sensei first hand. I don't know if he teaches much any more but 15 years ago he had a pretty good "expression" of what O'Sensei's internal power was.

The fact that both you and some other "Westerners" here have "knowledge" of internal power and can express leads me to believe there are others...For example Virginia Mayhew went Japan to study Aikido and Zen in the late 50's round about the same time Draeger was there I believe. She trained with both O'Sensei and Shoji Nishio. In the mid 90's at more than 80 years of age she had long retired from Aikido but during a lecture she gave for us out of no where this "feeble" old woman gleefully did a few breakfalls and rolls much to our astonishment. I then obliged her for a few techniques and felt her energy flow in Iriminage. She felt that the cultivation of internal power was realized through good Ukemi and not just through Techniques.

Virginia did not write any books and sadly most of her experiance faded into the memories of those who knew her.

There are dozens of others in the "West" here in the US and Europe too.

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Regards,

Mike Sigman
It is always a pleasure to correspond with you my Aikiweb friend.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-16-2008 at 05:39 PM. Reason: Speellwings
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:33 PM   #177
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
IAgreed However given my experiance is the same in Chinese Arts as yours is in the Japanese ones It's stunning to understand how little I know of "what to look for" as opposed to whats there Since the only filter I have is the one given to me by my Japanese Shihan/Yudansha and my own efforts Lets call it "evidence of things not seen."
Well, bear in mind that I have more than 20+ years in both Japanese and Chinese martial arts. Each. The problem was that I didn't know any of this stuff when I was in the Japanese arts.... but I knew it was there so I kept looking (in the Chinese arts).
Quote:
Well some folks might consider Don an expert because he was one of the first Westerners to write about the Japanese Martial Arts but being first does not make him an expert in my eyes.
I agree. Draeger was a first step, not the final step.
Quote:
So there is no need to "imagine" that at all. LOL For Aikido's Internal Experiance I suggest perhaps having a long conversation with Bob Nadeau who is one of the few still living "Westerners" in the US to have experianced O'Sensei first hand. I don't know if he teaches much any more but 15 years ago he had a pretty good "expression" of what O'Sensei's internal power was.

The fact that both you and some other "Westerners" here have "knowledge" of internal power and can express leads me to believe there are others...For example Virginia Mayhew went Japan to study Aikido and Zen in the late 50's round about the same time Draeger was there I believe. She trained with both O'Sensei and Shoji Nishio. In the mid 90's at more than 80 years of age she had long retired from Aikido but during a lecture she gave for us out of no where this "feeble" old woman gleefully did a few breakfalls and rolls much to our astonishment. I then obliged her for a few techniques and felt her energy flow in Iriminage. She felt that the cultivation of internal power was realized through good Ukemi and not just through Techniques.
But again we're talking about "energy" and "internal power" and we may be talking about two different things (I'm pretty sure that we are, TBH). That's why I think one of the first things that needs to be done is define and delineate what "internal power" actually means.

Best.

Mike
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:42 PM   #178
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Hi, everyone. My sincere apologies for barging into your IMA conversation but I have a military training methodology issue and I thought this would be the best place to discuss it.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
1. MAC-P has a base of BJJ it is not BJJ.
2. You make the assumption that we only train one range of combat in MAC-P, we don't.
3. You make the assumption that BJJ guys don't know how to stand up, most do. If you don't believe it take a K-M buddy to a BJJ dojo and go to it.
4. You make the assumption that you have a certain level of knowledge when distance is closed on you in a tactical situation and you may not.
5. You make the assumption that when you go to the ground that "you might as well give up as you are already dead". (we covered that already).

Mark, see my point of why I brought it up? A whole range of fighting dismissed by a lack of perspective of the ranges of fighting.
Kevin, you're making the assumption that I'm making those assumptions, which I'm really not. Just to clear it up, let me rephrase my statement:

1. My actual assumption- In a combat scenario, when unknown numbers of combatants are on the field the quickest end to an empty handed fight is best. As W. Hazen (I think) said earlier, "the winner is usually the one whose buddy with a gun comes along first." Someone (Mark or Dan) underscored this on the last page by kicking the officer who was down grappling with a suspect in training.

2. My theory- They should do away with the format where a given amount of time is granted, in favor of a "he who wins fastest, wins best type." Combat participants don't have the luxury of sparring, feeling each other out, getting each other's distance and timing, etc. Or going through the guard/mount process.

As a military trainer, don't you want the fastest, most decisive win possible? In terms of limiting the length of exposure to additional risks and also in terms of moving the battle plan along?

3. I did mistakenly use the term BJJ when I should have said "MMA" because maybe takedown defense is one of the paramount issues. As was correctly pointed out a page back by someone.

Your points 4 & 5. IMO groundwork should center on getting back up and into the entire fight, because (another actual assumption) you're probably fighting more than one person and they probably have weapons.

I got pretty seriously hurt a few years ago because I thought I was fighting two guys and found out I was actually fighting three. I've been Monday morning quarterbacking it ever since. So I'm not a soldier, but I do have a background.
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:11 AM   #179
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill wrote:

Quote:
1. My actual assumption- In a combat scenario, when unknown numbers of combatants are on the field the quickest end to an empty handed fight is best. As W. Hazen (I think) said earlier, "the winner is usually the one whose buddy with a gun comes along first." Someone (Mark or Dan) underscored this on the last page by kicking the officer who was down grappling with a suspect in training.
Obviously. You use what you have congruent with Use of Force rules and Rules of Engagement. absolutely. No argument here on that one.

Bill wrote:

Quote:
As a military trainer, don't you want the fastest, most decisive win possible? In terms of limiting the length of exposure to additional risks and also in terms of moving the battle plan along?
Well, there is only one answer to that question right? This logic reminds me of the question that we were told to ask prospects in when I sold Life Insurance. "You want to take care of your family when you die right?"

Bill wrote:

Quote:
Your points 4 & 5. IMO groundwork should center on getting back up and into the entire fight, because (another actual assumption) you're probably fighting more than one person and they probably have weapons.
Well, yes. Never implied that that should not be your goal. For soldiers this is implied really, they come understanding that being on the ground is a bad thing, and that they don't want to be there, if they are, then they need to get up and create distance.

In the structure of studying ground fighitng, there is much more going on then simply learning tactics or techniques. The training methodology is fairly complex and is built upon a solid foundation that allows you to grow and increase skill as you go.

Really when you get down to it, Mike and Ark are trying to do the same thing with the IMA stuff. Boil it down into manageable, definable methodology that allows you to develop a sound base and replicate it over and over again.

What is key in developing any program or methodology are a couple of things.

1. People must understand and accept the endstate of the training.
2. The must feel that the methodology helps them reach that endstate.
3. The must be able to do it.
4. The training must be replicated over and over by others.
5. There must be a standard or agreed upon teachings so everyone can be on the same sheet of music.

Probably more, but this is all I can think of now. Mike and Ark have worked hard to develop such a "WAY". Just like the Gracies, just like Ueshiba, just like MAC-P.

In doing so, you have trade offs and training affects that must be dealt with as you systematize things.

Many of these things may not be fully understood, and many of the training methods should not be taken literally in a tactical sense.

Groundfighting work falls into this category in many respects.

I will say the same thing that MIke does for IMA stuff. There is transferrence of the skills you learn, but don't look at them as application for fighting 100%.

Same goes for groundfighting skills. There is transferrence of skills you learn, but you have to put it together for yourself in developing what we call Techniques, Tactics, and Procedures (TTPs) in the military.

The key to training strategies is you do things that best promote the desired "programming" "re-programming" of habits and choices that you might make in reality.

Keeping all this in mind is why you see a merger between "Military Methodologies" in this thread and "IMA" in the respect of modalities..we have much in common in trying to systematize and codify methodology to train.

This is why I enjoy discussing things so much with Mike. We may disagree on some things, but he really gets the importance of training strategy and methodology and the importance of it in developing your own body and TTPs.

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Old 06-17-2008, 09:53 AM   #180
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Really when you get down to it, Mike and Ark are trying to do the same thing with the IMA stuff. Boil it down into manageable, definable methodology that allows you to develop a sound base and replicate it over and over again.
However, once you get your foot in the door, most martial-arts systems and neigong systems also have their studied methodology. Tohei has a methodology (his is actually a little more complete than a lot of people realize, as I think I deduce it), Ushiro has a methodology (notice, however, that it leads through the learning of a form "Sanchin"), and so forth.

But one of the big questions is "what methodology is the most effective for the largest number of people".... an important consideration if anyone is ever going to attempt to put some of these things into the military. Then too there is the question of which range of the spectrum of skills is the most important for the goals you have in mind. The spectrum of skills is fairly large and, as far as I can tell (although it may not be obvious to the casual observer), all the of the people developing methodologies are concentrating on not only different approaches, but are focusing on different areas of development. Which is why when I see where people are "doing a little bit of this and doing a little bit of that" I think they need to back up and try to formulate a clearer picture of what the basics are, what various trainings develop, and so forth. Mixing things up is fine, but a lot of people are going to the market to buy a heifer when they don't know anything at all about cows.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-17-2008, 11:41 AM   #181
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

It may not seem like it but I have gotten a lot out of this conversation. I'm at the point in my training where you have to take an honest look at some of the shortfalls of your system, and really have to decide if and what you're going to do about it.

It's obvious that Aikido has a few, but some uniques strengths as well. Since I'm at the time when I'm expected to start thinking about teaching I've decided to stick around and concentrate on Aiki solutions I can personally implement instead of switching again.

I have enough outside martial experience to know where the bear s**ts. Aikido has concepts that can be applied to takedown defense, for sure. It's good against multiple opponents. Strict kihon notwithstanding, it may even have implementations in groundfighting. So I'm going to start building some credible answers to the criticism.

If you guys are right about Internal Power (let's just suppose for a minute ) having a demonstrable effect on fighting ability I think testing Aikido's actual effectiveness is an ideal way to find out.
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Old 06-17-2008, 03:58 PM   #182
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
If you guys are right about Internal Power (let's just suppose for a minute ) having a demonstrable effect on fighting ability I think testing Aikido's actual effectiveness is an ideal way to find out.
I think that is an excellent idea, and one that is not only achievable but highly commendable. My current teacher, in discussions after class yesterday, noted that those people that say they need this and that from other arts simply haven't studied one art deeply enough. This was his reaction to a new guy that pitched up (we don't expect to see him back) to "learn". This guy had done a dozen or so arts and had no core skills in the IMA sense, so of course any of his technique attempts were entirely ineffective.

As has been pointed out many times, Aikido has what is needed to make it an effective art, it is just that most people don't know enough to train that way. Heck, last night saw me realize how to "do" the common overhead block and forward thrust with a jo (or bo) in a way that builds IMA skills. Oh my! Imagine if I knew how to do all the jo kata movements that way! But no, in 12+ years of Aikido no clues. Sad in a way, but the future looks a lot brighter given that there is more active interest (at least on the internet!) to search out more efficient IMA training and teachers who will show stuff and not hold back.
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Old 06-17-2008, 04:40 PM   #183
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill Wrote:

Quote:
It may not seem like it but I have gotten a lot out of this conversation. I'm at the point in my training where you have to take an honest look at some of the shortfalls of your system, and really have to decide if and what you're going to do about it.
Yes, that is key. I look at it slightly different. All systems and methods have shortfalls, understanding your desired endstate or what you want out of your training does more to mitigate the issue, even without maybe having to go outside your dojo. It may be that your endstate and current training regime don't match up, but that does not mean what your studying is wrong maybe.

This is good advice along that vain:

Mike wrote:

Quote:
Which is why when I see where people are "doing a little bit of this and doing a little bit of that" I think they need to back up and try to formulate a clearer picture of what the basics are, what various trainings develop, and so forth. Mixing things up is fine, but a lot of people are going to the market to buy a heifer when they don't know anything at all about cows
Bill wrote:

Quote:
It's obvious that Aikido has a few, but some uniques strengths as well. Since I'm at the time when I'm expected to start thinking about teaching I've decided to stick around and concentrate on Aiki solutions I can personally implement instead of switching again
Teaching is always an interesting endeavor. I think we have to remember that we don't know everything there is to know and there is always room to learn. I think one of the best ways to learn is to start teaching and make mistakes. As long as everyone knows that you are all in it together and trying to learn then it can be very productive.

For example, I decided to start teaching some of the internal exercises I learned from Mike and Ark with another person. Of course I am making lots of mistakes, stopping, going to my notes etc, but it is starting to generate questions and learning points as I go. It also motivates me to study and to learn more.

Talking about integration...interesting experience today.

As I was working with my partner today, one of our Colonels and a Warrant Officer made some remarks about what it looked like (typically homophobic Army inuendo). Then came up and talked to us. the Warrant told me he was getting ready to go to the range to work on reflexive fire. I asked him about shooting posture and we then started going over it, then showed him some of the exercises and how they might help in the CQB environment...he then became interested.

Not saying I know anything close to internal skills at this point. However it was interesting to see in passing how in the future it might be possible to get there!

Bill wrote:

Quote:
have enough outside martial experience to know where the bear s**ts. Aikido has concepts that can be applied to takedown defense, for sure. It's good against multiple opponents. Strict kihon notwithstanding, it may even have implementations in groundfighting. So I'm going to start building some credible answers to the criticism.
I agree..in theory. What depends is how you practice it. Timing, speed, and aliveness separate theory from practice. I found this out the hard way several years ago as an aikidoka working with unexperienced or semi experienced soldiers with a few months of combatives training. Only way to know is to throw on some Blauer gear and try it out relplicating as close as possible the conditions.

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Old 06-18-2008, 08:36 AM   #184
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Teaching is always an interesting endeavor. I think we have to remember that we don't know everything there is to know and there is always room to learn. I think one of the best ways to learn is to start teaching and make mistakes. As long as everyone knows that you are all in it together and trying to learn then it can be very productive..
Yes, I'm mainly looking at teaching as a way to explore the theories. Even though Yoshinkan is way more martial than a lot of Aikido styles we aren't employing our techniques against modern attacks (like tackles and sucker punches) very often. That is probably going to be my biggest swerve from conventional instruction, but I think it's really important. I'm going to make it clear that I'm working out the bugs so I can make mistakes and not take them too seriously.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I agree..in theory. What depends is how you practice it. Timing, speed, and aliveness separate theory from practice. I found this out the hard way several years ago as an aikidoka working with unexperienced or semi experienced soldiers with a few months of combatives training. Only way to know is to throw on some Blauer gear and try it out replicating as close as possible the conditions.
Once again, I'm very jealous of you military and law enforcement guys who have access to this kind of equipment. But I agree 100%- the only way to know is to test it in as realistic circumstances as you can manufacture. You don't want to be drilling bad technique into your muscle memory, so you have to know the difference.

Side note: You think reflexive fire is one of the biggest opportunities for applying internal power? I do. Maybe this is not strictly speaking, an IMA app. But I do the same visualization exercises golfers do- see the bullets streaming out and connecting with the target. I barely use the sights under 7 yards.
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Old 06-18-2008, 08:50 AM   #185
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

I hate to double post, but one more thing: Who thinks palm heel strikes are better than fist punches for knockouts?

In Shao Lama Kung Fu, we used our wrist bones rather than our knuckles and it works well for very close range. My sifu taught that hands are too brittle for strikes and reserved them for trapping and grabbing.
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Old 06-18-2008, 09:02 AM   #186
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Good rule of thumb: Hard weapons (closed fists) for soft targets (abdomen/kidneys/throat); soft weapons (palms) for hard targets (skull). Mike Tyson seemed to break a hand every time he got in a bar fight...
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:01 AM   #187
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
But I do the same visualization exercises golfers do- see the bullets streaming out and connecting with the target. I barely use the sights under 7 yards.
Bill,

All I can say is that you should probably go out and find someone that has bonafide internal skills, any one of the Chen villagers, Sam Chin, Ushiro Kenji, Mike, Dan etc etc

I guarantee you it would save you a lot of time posting what are essentially pointless "what ifs" pontificating stuff you simply have to get your hands on in order to understand.
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Old 06-18-2008, 10:50 AM   #188
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill wrote:

Quote:
Side note: You think reflexive fire is one of the biggest opportunities for applying internal power? I do. Maybe this is not strictly speaking, an IMA app. But I do the same visualization exercises golfers do- see the bullets streaming out and connecting with the target. I barely use the sights under 7 yards
I think there are lots of opportunities and places where these exercises would be helpful. I am about 1 week into a good solid daily hour practice right now. Not sure about the "internal aspects" of the training, but I feel it in muscles and parts that I have not used for a while, mucsle that you use to hold a good frame for anything that you do as Tim Anderson points out.

From Carrying groceries to carrying a loaded down M4 in the proper posture.

I think Reflexive fire gives us a very direct way of measuring improvement as it is a very controlled and martial posture and movement. You have to move your body as a unit in a very coordinated way.

I know it gets irritating hearing it over and over...I got tired of it too...but Rob is correct. Even a day with one of these guys will have you going "oh...I get it now".

You simply look at what they are talking about from a martial application point of view, and that ain't the right one. It is about structure, framework, building the chassis, not racing the car.

I think there is a huge distinction between the two. My experiences have been in martial arts is that most dojos do two things half ass. Teaching technique half ass, and conditioning half assed...so you end up with two half asses...not a whole.

IMA training in this respect seems to be about doing the development as a whole.

What you do with it is up to you. I am still figuring that out, but see benefits.

If you can't see the good guys, get with a few guys in your area that are doing this stuff, learn some of the exercises and jump in. I am screwing it all up I guarantee you that!

What is my other option? doing nothing? Not gettting any better than my current level?

It is at least worth a try for the small investment of daily practice time.

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Old 06-18-2008, 05:09 PM   #189
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Robert John wrote: View Post
Bill,

All I can say is that you should probably go out and find someone that has bonafide internal skills, any one of the Chen villagers, Sam Chin, Ushiro Kenji, Mike, Dan etc etc

I guarantee you it would save you a lot of time posting what are essentially pointless "what ifs" pontificating stuff you simply have to get your hands on in order to understand.
It's not pointless to me, Robert- it's my way of researching. I don't mind taking some ukemi, if you will, when I want to know about something. Just finding out who has good arguments and who is just argumentative. This week I found out Kevin, Kit and William Hazen are interested in internal energy and I find them to be credible so it merits further investigation.

I appreciate your concern for my time, though. Since I see how interested we are in helping each other out, may I suggest people might take your posts more seriously if you get some training in sentence structure and composition? " "

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-18-2008 at 05:11 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:13 PM   #190
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
It's not pointless to me, Robert- it's my way of researching. I don't mind taking some ukemi, if you will, when I want to know about something. Just finding out who has good arguments and who is just argumentative. This week I found out Kevin, Kit and William Hazen are interested in internal energy and I find them to be credible so it merits further investigation.

I appreciate your concern for my time, though. Since I see how interested we are in helping each other out, may I suggest people might take your posts more seriously if you get some training in sentence structure and composition? " "
Ah, well said! I can't think of a better way to make a point, Bill! In fact, I think Rob now understands why I give such short shrift to so many Aikido discussions.

With all due Respect!

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:35 PM   #191
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Ah, well said! I can't think of a better way to make a point, Bill! In fact, I think Rob now understands why I give such short shrift to so many Aikido discussions.

With all due Respect!

Mike Sigman
You do actually contribute some gems, though. But if that's really the case above, maybe we should all thank you for spending so much of your time!
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:40 PM   #192
Aikibu
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Robert Wolfe wrote: View Post
Good rule of thumb: Hard weapons (closed fists) for soft targets (abdomen/kidneys/throat); soft weapons (palms) for hard targets (skull). Mike Tyson seemed to break a hand every time he got in a bar fight...
A very good rule of thumb...Let me also add Atemi "knuckle point/finger strikes." and the ridge of your palm IOW Karate or WuShu Strikes to the list....

In the context of this discussion if you could train a soldier to relax and deliver precise Atemi/strikes using internal power IMO you would be giving that soldier a very powerful tool. To be able to "express" such power while under duress is the very epitome of great Martial Artist.

I was inspired to pick up my copy of "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do" last night after watching "Dragon The Bruce Lee story."

It was like visiting with an old friend who reminds you of how far you have come and still have yet to go.

Bruce recognized and taught (it was even shown somewhat in the film LOL) That the fist must be relaxed and open not clenched until the very moment of contact at a point behind the "opponent"

Just to read his words again reminds me of how lucky we are to have folks like O'Sensei, him, and the good folks here at Aikiweb to guide us.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 06-18-2008 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:46 PM   #193
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
You do actually contribute some gems, though.
Really, it's nothing when compared to the "how-to's" that you've contributed. Think nothing of it!

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-18-2008, 05:54 PM   #194
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Really, it's nothing when compared to the "how-to's" that you've contributed.
Well, I appreciate it but I've never been a glory grabber, so don't mention it!
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Old 06-18-2008, 06:32 PM   #195
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Well, I appreciate it but I've never been a glory grabber, so don't mention it!
I liked the point about palm heels especially.
Very enlightening.

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Old 06-18-2008, 07:28 PM   #196
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Robert John wrote: View Post
I liked the point about palm heels especially.
Very enlightening.

Don't discredit me here, because this is something I happen to know about. Two things can cause a knockout:

1. The brain impacting the inside of the skull.

2. Twisting the spinal cord at the base of the skull.

So a brisk palm heel strike to the chin in a direction that torques the neck will put X's over your eyes more reliably than a hook to the side of the head.

There, my first "how-to".
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:32 PM   #197
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Don't discredit me here, because this is something I happen to know about. Two things can cause a knockout:

1. The brain impacting the inside of the skull.

2. Twisting the spinal cord at the base of the skull.

So a brisk palm heel strike to the chin in a direction that torques the neck will put X's over your eyes more reliably than a hook to the side of the head.

There, my first "how-to".
I think you're ready to join Joseph's hall of fame thread

Any more TMA krotty gems you want to bestow on us that you gleaned from the Discovery channel?
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:42 PM   #198
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

That info was circa 1995, courtesy of Terry "Taiwan" Lee, my Shao Lama Sifu. If Discovery Channel said it, they were right, too.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-18-2008 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:49 PM   #199
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
That info was circa 1995, courtesy of Terry "Taiwan" Lee, my Shao Lama Sifu. If Discovery Channel said it, they were right, too.
Sigh,
No one's saying you're wrong Bill, just that it's not anything earth shattering.

And who the hell would "hook" to the side of the head, the aim is still the chin buddy
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Old 06-18-2008, 07:59 PM   #200
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

May I then re-posit my question about who thinks palm heel strikes deliver more knockout probability than fist punches?
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