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Old 06-16-2008, 11:35 AM   #51
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Hey Rob:

What is it with you and the mall kidnapping? Do you know that only only a tiny percentage of child kidknapping's are done by strangers?
Most are children involved in custody battles.

If a child is too young to know what to do in a self-defense situation they should be well surpervised at every moment.

Children are much more likely to be victimized by someone they know. Be wary of adults that give you that funny feeling and never leave your kids with them...

"Protecting the Gift" is book that should be read by every parent. A stranger hiding behind a bush ready to grab our children at any moment is a myth...the real dangers are coach's, teacher's, pastors....anyone who gives you or your child a weird feeling.

Mary
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:44 AM   #52
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Hey Rob:

What is it with you and the mall kidnapping? Do you know that only only a tiny percentage of child kidknapping's are done by strangers?
Most are children involved in custody battles.
In most serious crimes (rape, kidnapping, murder), the victim and perpetrator know each other - or are at least "acquainted". "Random attacks" statistically pale in comparison, and in those cases a better sense of "awareness" (which is learned in Aikido, or any other martial art) could help cut down the number of those incidents.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 06-16-2008, 12:20 PM   #53
Keith Larman
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Sometimes it is fruitful to look at it from the other side -- why does a 200+ 6 foot tall ectomorphic norwegian weight liftin' male with a background in other arts take aikido?

Of course I'm talking about me here...

I enjoyed the grace and beauty of the art. I also thought "this looks like something really hard for me to learn to do well". And... Wait for it... It looked interesting and fun.

My other answer to the question of "why do you do aikido" is to point out something else... No one ever asks why I go to the gym to lift weights and work out on the ellipticals (real reason is back and knee problems, trying to prevent that early heart attack, and a chance to get out of my workshop). No one asks why I enjoy dog training. I just like dogs... No one asks why I enjoy playing tennis -- its just fun!

We all have hobbies, avocations, and we all take them to varied levels of intensity. My Aikido training is probably my most intensely focused activity for me behind my time with my family and my training in Japanese sword crafts. Unfortunately I don't have more time for more things to get enthused about.

So... All that said... I imagine there are lots of people just like me -- male and female both. They do aikido because it is what they do. No real profound reason, no pressing, critical force that insists they do it. I certainly enjoy my training. And I get antsy when I miss training. And I have the great benefit of training in the dojo 3 times a week and often spend time doing solo stuff the other days (the benefit of being self-employed, working at home, and needing to take breaks periodically -- I get to work on kengi, jogi, aikitaiso, etc.)

Sometimes I think people think too much, look too deep, and try to find reasons when in fact it is just what it is. Kinda like that great zen quote... ""Remember; no matter where you go, there you are."- B. Banzai". Sometimes the reasons are no deeper than that...

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Old 06-16-2008, 01:19 PM   #54
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Anne Marie,
Good on Penny, but it sounds like her attackers weren't typical of the kinds of guys I've encountered in other parts of the New World. Just tenkan wouldn't be enough to end most conflicts.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:23 PM   #55
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
In most serious crimes (rape, kidnapping, murder), the victim and perpetrator know each other - or are at least "acquainted". "Random attacks" statistically pale in comparison, and in those cases a better sense of "awareness" (which is learned in Aikido, or any other martial art) could help cut down the number of those incidents.
Jennifer,
Could you reference where you got those statistics?

Thanks,
Mark
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:26 PM   #56
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

It certainly didn't have to be a "mall situation". A mall was just an example of a common place to have kids which is also a fairly uncontrolled place. There are lots of places to hide, lots of people to get in the way of finding lost kids, and TOO many doors. I suppose it speaks to my raised awareness as Jennifer points out.

I've heard that the stranger kidnapping is more of a myth, and I'm not sure if I believe that yet. Over 300,000 children go missing or abducted every year in the United States. There are about 70 million children in the country. Every person has maybe a 1% chance of being snatched away before survivng to adulthood. (According to: http://davidbau.com/archives/2007/02...tatistics.html)

1% is a tiny percentage, but no percentage is acceptable.

Rob
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:27 PM   #57
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Anne Marie,
Good on Penny, but it sounds like her attackers weren't typical of the kinds of guys I've encountered in other parts of the New World. Just tenkan wouldn't be enough to end most conflicts.
Aren't most muggers after an "easy target" who won't fight back? My roommate (who has NO martial art experience) escaped a potential mugging by walking right up to her would-be attacker's face and cussing him out.

There are plenty of near-misses that go on every day, and are not reported. We just hear about the more *serious* crimes that *did* happen.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:33 PM   #58
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Jennifer,
Could you reference where you got those statistics?

Thanks,
Mark
Here are some rape statistics for you to chew on: http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?d...cumentID=32306

*snip*

Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002).

Murder statistics (slightly outdated, but I'm pretty sure the percentages haven't changed much): http://law.jrank.org/pages/11921/Vio...st-Person.html

*snip*

When the relationship between offender and victim was known, about 25 percent of murders occurred between strangers. These murders tend to be "thrill" killings—done for the immediate thrill and with no personal motive. Examples are random drive by shootings, dropping a rock on a car from an overpass or bridge, or shooting at cars on highways. Roughly 22 percent of murders were between family members. In 53 percent of murders the offender and victim were acquaintances. At the start of the twenty-first century approximately one thousand individuals per year were killed in gang-related activities. The victim may or may not have known his or her murderer. Teenage gangs often operate in a culture where violence and killing is not only expected but encouraged.

Over time, the most common traits of murderers have found them to be male, between the ages of eighteen and thirty-four, and an acquaintance of the victim. The weapon of choice is a firearm.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:41 PM   #59
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Hi Jennifer,
"Muggers" --- the punks and marginals -- maybe. But they are only part of the equation. There are plenty of predators who are more sociopathic and less likely to be deterred by rationale, bluffs or any "non-confrontational" approach. I've met a few. Nothing short of being able to physically dismantle them will give you a chance.

The "average Jane," if she sticks to "average streets," may encounter the lesser ills, but I wouldn't count on "avoidance of physical confrontation" to be an across-the-board possibility at all times, no matter where you live.
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Old 06-16-2008, 01:45 PM   #60
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

BTW,
The comment about most child kidnappings being by known people, and actually mostly as part of child custody "issues," is pretty accurate. My mother, both an attorney and a psychologist, worked as a court-appointed guardian-ad-litem (the child's representative/agent in a custody battle) for decades, and such abductions were common. She once had to trace a guy to Italy, and another to Saudi Arabia (among many such abductions), to get children back to the mothers who had received legal physical custody. And many times, sadly, the children were never seen or heard from again.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:29 PM   #61
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Anne Marie,
Good on Penny, but it sounds like her attackers weren't typical of the kinds of guys I've encountered in other parts of the New World. Just tenkan wouldn't be enough to end most conflicts.
You certain about that Cady? Dania Beach is a pretty seedy place. Not all areas in Florida are peachy keen and if you know what I mean. It's not a place you should hang out at night.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:34 PM   #62
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Not all areas in Florida are peachy keen and if you know what I mean.
Miami Dade, after 7:00 pm at night. Glad I was with the entire wrestling team!

B,
R (from what I hear, it wouldn't have helped any if someone was serious...and that was back in the real early eighties)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-16-2008, 02:51 PM   #63
mickeygelum
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Greetings all,

For your information, if you are not referencing the FBI-UCR, Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report, your statistics are not accurate. The FBI-UCR is comprised of all reported crimes, by all reporting agencies, in the United States. Even with that said, there still is a margin of error, as it is the reported crimes/offenses only.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 06-16-2008, 03:45 PM   #64
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
Here are some rape statistics for you to chew on: http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?d...cumentID=32306

*snip*

Seventy-seven (77)% of completed rapes are committed by non-strangers (Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1997). A woman is four times more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than by a stranger (Illinois Coaliltion Against Sexual Assault, 2002).

Murder statistics (slightly outdated, but I'm pretty sure the percentages haven't changed much): http://law.jrank.org/pages/11921/Vio...st-Person.html

*snip*

When the relationship between offender and victim was known, about 25 percent of murders occurred between strangers. These murders tend to be "thrill" killings—done for the immediate thrill and with no personal motive. Examples are random drive by shootings, dropping a rock on a car from an overpass or bridge, or shooting at cars on highways. Roughly 22 percent of murders were between family members. In 53 percent of murders the offender and victim were acquaintances. At the start of the twenty-first century approximately one thousand individuals per year were killed in gang-related activities. The victim may or may not have known his or her murderer. Teenage gangs often operate in a culture where violence and killing is not only expected but encouraged.

Over time, the most common traits of murderers have found them to be male, between the ages of eighteen and thirty-four, and an acquaintance of the victim. The weapon of choice is a firearm.
You do realize that your reference web site uses data from:
A) surveys, books, reports, and university research but no hard data.
B) mostly outdated from 1992 to 1997, with only one instance of a new report in 2007 and even that was an estimation.
C) Nothing from UCR.
D) Misinformation. Like this, "Acquaintance rape is rarely reported to police. Less than 2% of acquaintance rape victims reported the assault whereas 21% of women raped by strangers reported the crime to police (Illinois Coalition Against Sexual Assault, 2002). " The problem with this is how did the ICASA find out that 98% of acquaintance rape isn't reported. Um, if it isn't reported ...

From this page:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/2...at_over_10.htm

It's 1999 stats, so they are within your range of "data". Notice that "Supplemental data for 1999 indicate that 48% of all murder victims knew their assailants. Twelve percent of offenders were identified as strangers, and offenders were unknown in 40% of murders."

That's different than your quoted "about 25 percent of murders occurred between strangers."

In fact, going further, if one removes gang murders from the equation, I'm sure the percentage for murder victims knew their assailant would go down quite a bit from the 48%.

And you really have to wonder about this program:
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/ncsrqa.txt

Doing surveys to figure out crime statistics?!?

Whom does the NCVS interview?
------------------------------

The survey collects its data from a nationally
representative sample of individuals age 12 or
older living in U.S. households. Basic
demographic information, such as age, race, sex,
and income, is collected to enable analysis of
victimizations of various subpopulations.
Interviews are translated for non-English speaking
respondents. The NCVS does not cover individuals
living in institutions.

--------------------------------------
How are survey participants selected?
--------------------------------------

Each month the U.S. Bureau of the Census selects
respondents for the NCVS using a "rotating panel"
design. Households are randomly selected, and all
age-eligible individuals in a selected household
become part of the panel.

-----------------------------------

The new NCVS broadens the scope of covered sexual
incidents beyond the categories of rape and
attempted rape. These include:
* sexual assault (other than rape)
* verbal threats of rape or sexual assault
* unwanted sexual contact without force but
involving threats or other harm to the victim.

These new categories, broadened coverage, and more
extensive questions on sexual victimizations have
elicited information on about 3 to 4 times as many
sexual crime victimizations as in the past.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Multiple questions and cues on crimes committed by
family members, intimates, and acquaintances have
been added. The survey also encourages
respondents to report incidents even if they are
not sure whether a crime has been committed. The
survey staff review these reported incidents
using standardized definitions of crimes.
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Old 06-16-2008, 06:52 PM   #65
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
I just do not think any of your above referenced reasons are reasons exclusively because they are women.
Yep! See the thread being hijack oh, I'd say way back on page one, was the reason for the quotes. You see it was an intermission of sorts to get people back on thinking about Aikido.

I picked women because the thread is about women. No other reason.

Bill, I hear ya.

BTW, a bit of info. What most of us wimpy guys keep to ourselves is us wimpy guys have it rough. We are always over-looked by women because we can't protect them. We are not the muscle bound always that strike fear in the hearts of men. If we are lucky we will get a woman who will protect us, but that only last until the verbal confrontation ends. Way down deep in side at that man place, we have this passion, it's a personal issue that drives us to be the hero and protect the fare maiden from the perils of the brutish rapscallions. Once we rescue them they reward us with their hearts and kisses. Fanatsy...yea, I think so. But can't a guy dream?

Heck the thread when south anyway.

Last edited by Buck : 06-16-2008 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:07 PM   #66
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
Like I said before the best way to keep women in the dojo is to treat us with respect and not patronize us.
Anne Marie, ummm...thats not what the focus of the thread is. I think respect and not patronizing isn't something only desired by you, but to all people who are short, fat, wimpy etc. I think the US at its worst is a great place for women as compare to other places in the world.

Women are not the only ones, men get the same treatment by both other men and women. The men who complain about it are look down upon by both men and women. The are pushed down to the bottom of the pecking order.

Women who enter the pecking of men become disgruntle because they are not offered a position to the top because they where women. Men who enter the circle of women are pushed away and not allowed to enter. These men as society says should have known better and they are not real men for doing it. Yet, women who enter a men's club house are seen as heroines no matter how ruffled they are or successful in their attempts to enter the men's club of life.

I am done whining now. If you where wondering, I like the bi-sex dojos.

Last edited by Buck : 06-16-2008 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:11 PM   #67
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post

Women who enter the pecking of men
Women who enter the pecking order of men

Someday I will get a new keyboard or just clean it.
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:49 PM   #68
Janet Rosen
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

I guess I've just lived outside mainstream culture too long: I don't recognize or get affected by anybodys "pecking orders" male or female and I never chose friends, boyfriends, or marriage partners based on the likelihood of them being able to protect me. None of those are things that have any meaning in the world I've lived in, on two coasts, in urban and in rural areas, for over 50 yrs. I guess what I mean is, we each select our boxes and live in them; if you don't like the one you are in, find another.

Janet Rosen
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:06 AM   #69
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I am getting aggressive replies because those individuals are doing so is because they choose too. Anything short of saying all women are victimized by oppressing all men who are insensitive evil sexist monsters with equally sized egos will get negative response from these individuals. If you don't agree with them, you are the enemy.
Once again -- no, make that for the third time, at the very least -- you are presuming to speak for me. I'd really like it if you'd stop doing that. I'd also like it if you'd stop complaining about being "attacked" when I simply ask that you speak for yourself and not for me. You've accused me and others of coming out with guns blazing; sounds like the pot calling the kettle black, here. Would you like me to go back and list everything you've said about me in this thread, together with the entire text that I've posted to date? Then we can discuss whether there's any grounds to accusations such as my "want[ing] to sabotage the friendship and dampen the understanding that does happen between women and men in aikido." (emphasis mine)
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:21 AM   #70
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
So... All that said... I imagine there are lots of people just like me -- male and female both. They do aikido because it is what they do. No real profound reason, no pressing, critical force that insists they do it. I certainly enjoy my training. And I get antsy when I miss training. And I have the great benefit of training in the dojo 3 times a week and often spend time doing solo stuff the other days (the benefit of being self-employed, working at home, and needing to take breaks periodically -- I get to work on kengi, jogi, aikitaiso, etc.)

Sometimes I think people think too much, look too deep, and try to find reasons when in fact it is just what it is. Kinda like that great zen quote... ""Remember; no matter where you go, there you are."- B. Banzai". Sometimes the reasons are no deeper than that...
That would about spell it out for me, too. I don't come to the dojo, either on a given day or in the more general sense, with a laundry list. I've been a list-maker for much of my life, and I've found that it doesn't serve me well for many things. A list is a set of expectations, and expectations can limit our appreciation for what is and our perception of possibilities.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:54 AM   #71
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Ummmm, Buck, I disagree with your assertion that women who practice aikido have personal issues or reasons and somehow that is the "answer" to the "woman issue" in aikido. Because if there are any personal issues they are not different from a man's experience. And we enter the dojo and continue our train for similar reasons as men. And men, too, have personal issues as well.

The answer is not to teach aikido in a way that some how addresses women's personal issues. The answer is not to water down aikido in some form of AikiAerobics. The answer is to simply treat us, like everyone else on the mat, with dignity and respect. I already said that 99.5% of the time we are treated with respect so why do you bring up the whole pecking order nonsense? (Confused Smiley )

I feel like I'm in a rocking chair.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 06-17-2008, 09:52 AM   #72
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Ichi go ichi ei... no differences due to gender. We do our best each instant, be responsible, and learn. No agenda... we aren't smart enough to know what's really good for us. Practice for the sake of the practice. All very good "fortune cookie" philosophy, to be sure, but put simply, it works. It's also very difficult, until it isn't.

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Old 06-17-2008, 11:53 AM   #73
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Don't you think absolutely everybody has personal reasons for practicing? That's to say, why they practice martial arts at all and Aikido specifically.
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Old 06-17-2008, 04:07 PM   #74
Keith Larman
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Chuck Clark wrote: View Post
Ichi go ichi ei... no differences due to gender. We do our best each instant, be responsible, and learn. No agenda... we aren't smart enough to know what's really good for us. Practice for the sake of the practice. All very good "fortune cookie" philosophy, to be sure, but put simply, it works. It's also very difficult, until it isn't.
Yup, that's a good nutshell to put it in.

The process is the reason I train. I enjoy it. I'm sure there are a lot of deep, psychologically interesting reasons why I enjoy training, but for me, ultimately, the "real" reason is just the enjoyment I get out of each moment in the dojo. Ichi go ichi ei.

Much the same reason I've been playing piano for, geez, almost 40 years now... Maybe one of these days I'll get that third movement of the Moonlight *jussst* right. But why should I bother? I'll never play at Carnegie, never play professionally. But I enjoy playing. Can't that be reason enough? And ultimately isn't that really the reason why we do most anything? I ain't gonna be the next great aikido instructor. I'm just plodding along doing my best enjoying the sights along the way...

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Old 06-17-2008, 08:08 PM   #75
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
Ummmm, Buck, I disagree with your assertion that women who practice aikido have personal issues or reasons and somehow that is the "answer" to the "woman issue" in aikido.
Ahhh... Anne Marie (deep sigh) no, no, no, you got it all wrong.

Quote:
Because if there are any personal issues they are not different from a man's experience. And we enter the dojo and continue our train for similar reasons as men. And men, too, have personal issues as well.
Ohhh...Anne Marie, I can't say it again or any other way. It is about getting past barriers for solving problems in different ways in the dojo that women can internally relate to. It's not about women vs. men. Why are so many hung up on that. I can't wrap my mind around it. Am I caught in some kind of nightmare!

Quote:
The answer is not to teach aikido in a way that some how addresses women's personal issues. The answer is not to water down aikido in some form of AikiAerobics. The answer is to simply treat us, like everyone else on the mat, with dignity and respect. I already said that 99.5% of the time we are treated with respect so why do you bring up the whole pecking order nonsense? (Confused Smiley )

I feel like I'm in a rocking chair.
I guess, I feel like am on a Vertigo rollercoaster.

Last edited by Buck : 06-17-2008 at 08:15 PM.
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