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Old 05-18-2008, 08:13 AM   #51
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

If anyone has seen the new movie Red Belt, you might want to study the bar fight (empty hand against the knife). It shows the fundamental problem with Aikido vs knife as Aikido is often practiced today.

The defender keeps his elbows close to his body, knows his critical distance, evades the knife with full body movement where the hands and arms do little to pass, meet or cross.

In most versions of today's Aikido, it seems that we are stuck on the extended arm. This is the death knell for knife defense.

If we review Munenori's sword posture, the arms are not extended like we do in Aikido. The hands are only about two fists away from the hara. This translates into good jujitsu posture when you take the sword out of the hands.

This is the most efficient method of controlling the knife once you get a grip or parry.
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Old 05-18-2008, 08:47 AM   #52
tuturuhan
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
If anyone has seen the new movie Red Belt, you might want to study the bar fight (empty hand against the knife). It shows the fundamental problem with Aikido vs knife as Aikido is often practiced today.

The defender keeps his elbows close to his body, knows his critical distance, evades the knife with full body movement where the hands and arms do little to pass, meet or cross.

In most versions of today's Aikido, it seems that we are stuck on the extended arm. This is the death knell for knife defense.

If we review Munenori's sword posture, the arms are not extended like we do in Aikido. The hands are only about two fists away from the hara. This translates into good jujitsu posture when you take the sword out of the hands.

This is the most efficient method of controlling the knife once you get a grip or parry.
MTL, Chris,

Excellent point. But then, this challenges the structure of the house. Many with be unhappy with our observations.

Sincerely
Joe

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 05-18-2008, 07:33 PM   #53
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

if riai is the name of the game, it is just a matter of perspective.
Imagining that the forearm is the sword is part of the issue. That visualization would work fine if toy were striking someone. But if you are trying to go empty hand against a knife. Thus forearm should remain your forearm, hour hand remains a control tool (a grip on the imaginary sword). The opponent's arm becomes the sword. This visualization maintains Munenori's mechanics and improves leverage.

Of course, I notice you keep your elbows close while wielding your knife. You know the drill.....
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:33 AM   #54
Martin Goodyear
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Well I've never been stabbed, but I've lived in some pretty rough areas. I reckon that the vast majority of muggers just want your money and fast, so my habit was to keep not too much cash in my wallet (I sometimes kept excess in my sock).

Regarding aikido, I think that tanto defences are the single most significant element of aikido that discredits it as a self-defence art in the eyes of many. At least ki aikido has the excuse of being openly stylised, with the knife being just an extension of ki. Skilled knife attacks (so I've been led to believe) come like a fast zig-zaggy bush of steel rather than a tidy 2-dimensional line, and this makes 'stepping off the line' tricky.

I have played the topless marker pen game, and even managed a kotegaeshi, but not without receiving the Mark of Zoro! The disarms are probably OK, but not if you go looking for them. Instead, I reckon lots of atemi on Uke's wrist or forearm as it comes in, and also up the centreline when possible, to control/ hurt Uke. And lots of evading and making space. You mostly can't grab the wrist without being cut if the knife's sharp, so it becomes a bit of a survival game until an opportunity presents itself. I find my nice dignified hanmi becomes more cat-like, though I'm not sure if this is a good thing, and would welcome any tips from those well versed in this darker side of our art.

As to what I would do in a 'real situation', I think that no one really know without experiencing such situations, and even then each situation is unique. This is why it is so common for people to feel ashamed when they respond more passively than they thought they would. Others surprise themselves in the other direction - e.g. you might have an overwhelming sense that the person was bluffing, and tell them to 'F*** Off'.

Interesting subject,
Martin.
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Old 06-08-2008, 12:28 PM   #55
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Martin Goodyear wrote: View Post
(I sometimes kept excess in my sock).

R
Now your secret is out! You better hope your muggers are not checking out Aikiweb these days!!!

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Old 06-08-2008, 02:21 PM   #56
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
MTL, Chris,

Excellent point. But then, this challenges the structure of the house. Many with be unhappy with our observations.

Sincerely
Joe
Mongols! Heretics!!!! AARRRGGGG

LOL,
Jen

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 06-08-2008, 10:19 PM   #57
tuturuhan
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Re: Would you teach this knife technique?

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
Mongols! Heretics!!!! AARRRGGGG

LOL,
Jen
I prefer to be seen as a Visagoth. Attacking the Roman empire is something I would have enjoyed.

Best
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:56 AM   #58
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Tantodori responsibilities

When I teach tantodori, knife defense, I tend to get rather serious in class, and show the techniques in a more forceful and sharp way than usual. I believe that it is my responsibility, since a knife attack is something that can actually happen to a student "in the streets", and if they have learned sloppy movements, the consequences can be terrible.

So, I try to teach tantodori with this in mind, urging my students to take it seriously.
Still, we have to teach the aikido curriculum also in tantodori - and some of the techniques may be practical, but some others are certainly not. This, too, has to be pointed out in class.
Unfortunately, there is no general consensus to be found as to what techniques are the most trustworthy, and how to do them in the most trustworthy way. Our theories differ, as do our experiences.

Well, as with any self-defense training, the only thing one can hope is to increase one's chances. There is no guarantee.
Anyway, we should teach tantodori, in order to help the students increase their chances. If we don't, they are still likely to try aikido when attacked by knife, but their odds of making it are significantly smaller.

I made some tantodori videos for my YouTube account and my own website, such as this one with kotegaeshi against some basic knife attacks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8RipNS85bQ
Kotegaeshi seems to be the favorite defense in aikido's tantodori, among most aikidoists. Maybe we exagerrate its efficiency, but it has saved several people in real self-defense situations.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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