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Old 06-13-2008, 03:54 PM   #126
KIT
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Ah, too bad Dan, but I expected you wouldn't be interested.

Mark

Good idea with Chris - and IIRC Tom is down in my neck of the woods.

As Dan subtly implied, I fear we'd be the blind leading the blind if it was just you and I.

I think Rob is hit on some other interesting things a la re-wiring some PT exercises in this vein. Looking forward to exploring it more.
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #127
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Ah, too bad Dan, but I expected you wouldn't be interested.

Mark

Good idea with Chris - and IIRC Tom is down in my neck of the woods.

As Dan subtly implied, I fear we'd be the blind leading the blind if it was just you and I.

I think Rob is hit on some other interesting things a la re-wiring some PT exercises in this vein. Looking forward to exploring it more.
You suspected I would be uninterested? And Blind leading the blind? Care to explain where you came up with that idea?

I have been completely open, genuinely respectful, and made every attempt to be as clear and concise as I could be. The results of which is you misquote me, deliberately misrepresent my views, drag me in (third person no less) to some absurd testing scenario, and now put words in my mouth that are diametrically opposed to my real views and feelings.
I think you are clearly expressing an agenda, and possibly revealing some personal issues past the argument here. One of us is being subtle and disingenuous, Kit. That would be you. I say what I mean in no uncertain terms.

I’m glad you got various people to play with you and fill your information gaps, and also have done what I have done for years-popping the balloon of many MA pretenders. Good on ya. I’ve no interest in B.S either. For that very reason I don't discuss you and Kevin's goals and needs as I do not believe it is my place to do so.
I'm also glad that professionally and privately you finally got your act together to explore the benefits of grappling and things like BJJ and Judo, like thousands of others before you. Just don't expect me to be overly impressed by the recently converted playing catch up, and while lacking some substantial skill sets- proselytizing to the old guard. And just so you know, that's not a reference or insult of the "blind leading the blind" variety. Just a wake up call. That contrary to your last "teaching experience"- you don't know everything-yet.
Good luck in your training.

Last edited by DH : 06-13-2008 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:50 PM   #128
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Ah, geez, here we go again....

Blind leading the blind was a critical self analysis.

Sorry that you took it the wrong way.
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:46 AM   #129
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Mike wrote:

Quote:
The percentage of gung-ho hot-dogs in the training ranks leaves me a little bit cold because this is not some "by the numbers on my count, ladies" stuff that conforms to average PT. I.e., this is sophisticated enough that it's probably like deciding how much medical training you can funnel into EMT trainers while doing the best job at hand for everyone
Not sure about the Marine Corps...but the Army has pretty much gotten over that methodology of training in all aspects except where procedures dictate.

It is all about tactile respons/muscle memory and we do a pretty darn good job of teaching "dynamic flow" these days.

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Old 06-14-2008, 08:37 AM   #130
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
It is all about tactile respons/muscle memory and we do a pretty darn good job of teaching "dynamic flow" these days.
Well, I'll take your word for it, Kevin, and I'll assume that if I show some Army guy something he'll get the point, work on it, and be able to show outstanding results, not to mention teach it.

However, I still know a number of people in the military and I also have a reasonable amount of contact with civilian trainers, MMA guys, EMT guys, and so on. I think I have a reasonable feel for the attitude and approaches out there. I'm clinical and that makes me cynical.

The major point to me personally is that I'm actively engaged in a search for the best condensed way to teach/train what little I do know and engaging with the military or LEO just doesn't ring my bell. My perception is that there is a mindset component to dealing with those groups and it's not all a problem with the civilians. MIndset doesn't bother me in the least... we all have them... I just look at it in terms of factors that complicate or simplify matters and often mindsets simply make communication difficult. Look how many times you and I have covered the same territory in 3 years, AAMOF.

As I've said in the past, when I start seeing guys ask intelligent questions that reflect that they understand the material and that they have curiosity, I tend to chip in the best I can. Everyone has to make an effort. The one reason I tend to be fairly open about what I show is that I know most people don't really follow up or think... so the information I show them is usually safe.

Best.

Mike

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 06-14-2008 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 06-14-2008, 04:09 PM   #131
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Understand Mike.

yes, there is a mindset. What I spend my time on, I must understand how it is applicable and how it must (or must not) integrate into what I do.

The difference I think has something to do with the nature of our jobs.

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Old 06-14-2008, 04:24 PM   #132
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
The difference I think has something to do with the nature of our jobs.
I understand that, Kevin. You guys have to deal with large numbers of people and that affects your mindset. I don't. That's the main difference. Maybe that's what allows me to be more cold-eyed and clinical, too, though.

The question is why any analytical person would involve himself with the military or LEO, right? Remind me sometime to tell you what came of Wu Jian Quan's attempt to teach the military Taijiquan and other examples.

Best.

Mike
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:41 PM   #133
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

As someone who just read the last two pages of posts, it's hard to tell exactly what you guys are arguing about, but you seem to be orbiting a central point: Does Internal Power training produce superior real world fighters?

Just so I can catch up, and keeping in mind the context that this is the Military Training Methodologies thread, can you guys say who thinks it does and who thinks it doesn't?

And I'll go first- IMO, it doesn't. If it did, UFC fighters would go to internal arts camp instead of stand up and ground camp.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:59 PM   #134
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
And I'll go first- IMO, it doesn't. If it did, UFC fighters would go to internal arts camp instead of stand up and ground camp.
So why don't you tell us exactly what you know about internal arts, Bill, and what your reasoning is, as opposed to what your opinion is?

So far, I have yet to hear an opinion that is accompanied by the least indication that the speaker has a speaking knowledge of what the internal martial arts are about. The only comparable analogy I can think of would be back in the 90's when Wing Chun dominated so much of rec.martial-arts and the discussion would go to something like "Does BJJ matter? IMO, it doesn't. If it did, Wing Chun fighters would go to BJJ camp instead of WC camp". Of course, the reason so many WC fighters would say something like that was that first of all there was pretty much no real BJJ around and even if there was a little bit of it, the WC fighters had no knowledge of what it entailed.

Like I said, there is a little bit of implied conceit here. The implication is that several thousand years of Asians weren't as smart as the recent westerners for whom MMA has become a trend. I think it remains to be seen who is actually the cleverest.

However, I'm looking forward to a factual presentation of the pro's and con's from someone.

My opinion, FWIW.

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 06-15-2008 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:02 PM   #135
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Just so I can catch up, and keeping in mind the context that this is the Military Training Methodologies thread, can you guys say who thinks it does and who thinks it doesn't?

And I'll go first- IMO, it doesn't. If it did, UFC fighters would go to internal arts camp instead of stand up and ground camp.
It doesn't seem quite that simple. Do you know where you can go to learn internal power training? Me either. So the fact that UFC fighters don't do it says nothing at this point. Most people have never heard of it, or if they have think it's nonsense because a lot of people who claim they are internal have nothing to show.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:49 PM   #136
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So why don't you tell us exactly what you know about internal arts, Bill, and what your reasoning is, as opposed to what your opinion is?
My reasoning behind using UFC as an example is this: UFC competitors are looking for every advantage they can get. There's world fame and potentially millions of dollars riding on their success, so they're extremely motivated to find ways to win.

It's like the arms race- Royce Gracie dominated the UFC (so far, our best test lab) with BJJ, so everybody started looking for ways to win against it. If Internal Power was a viable way to do it, you can bet everybody would be scouring the earth trying to find the best IP training and spending all their time developing it.

As Dan just said, "a lot of people who claim they are internal have nothing to show." so I haven't been too interested in learning much about it. I am an Aikidoka, but I'm only interested in Aikido techniques that work against all opponents, not just the ones that know about Aikido.

My favorite thing would be to be wrong about this because I'm looking for real advantages, too.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:57 PM   #137
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
My reasoning behind using UFC as an example is this: UFC competitors are looking for every advantage they can get. There's world fame and potentially millions of dollars riding on their success, so they're extremely motivated to find ways to win.
OK, I understand your reasoning, but I was also asking what you know about "Internal Power". Using your reasoning, I could also say that "if Internal Power was any good, boxers would have used it for generations because there's world fame and potentially millons of dollars riding on their success." It's a circular argument.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-15-2008, 07:05 PM   #138
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Ironically, I agree with Mike on his assessment of the logic.

The disconnect is in trying to "lash up" two sides of the fence.

You have to look back on how this debate started. I had a few guys ask me about how I saw integrating internal training with combatives training....so here we are.

"My side" of the fence is based on a paradigm or endstate of "effectiveness" based on "aliveness models" based on dynamic pressure or flow. That is, situational, conditioned based, standards that whatever you do must be successful around those models.

Mike's side of the fence has not been widely understood or demonstrated to "my side" of the fence as to "HOW" that training can benefit it. What guys like me are doing are trying to understand how it might integrate, and/or how much time or effort to put into such training over other types of training/conditioning.

It revolves around realitive value of the internal training as it applies to the models police and military are following today.

Does that invalidate or discredit what Mike, Rob, Dan, and Ark are doing? Not in the least.

The question you ask, "if it did, then wouldn't UFC fighters go to internal camp?"

Actually is a valid question, but not one that is that easily answered.

Right now where we are in the evolvement of western figthing arts, the answer is probably NO they don't need to. Their time is better spent on other things that will allow them to rapidily accelerate and gain an edge to be successful.

Remember the equation is "you only have to be better than the guy your fighting in order to win".

Back in 1993/1994 you only had to maybe be a purple or brown belt in BJJ to do well in the UFC and integrate a little striking. Fast forward to 2007, BJJ is not the end all. Why? Cause guys now train to "be just good enough to defeat it". which negates much of it. So the game is constantly changing.

What will give fighters the edge 10 years from now? Who knows? maybe the cost/benefit will shift and the investment in time with internal training will be there.

To me it is not about IF the training is valid or that these guys don't know what they are doing...they do. It is about cost/benefit/gain, and realitive value of your time spent in training.

Again, though...how much time does it take to train in this?

Very little on a daily basis...so my advice is to train in this stuff.

If you want to be a fighter...train to be a fighter

Who knows...maybe you will be the guy that is able to do it all!

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Old 06-15-2008, 07:25 PM   #139
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Bill wrote:

Quote:
t's like the arms race- Royce Gracie dominated the UFC (so far, our best test lab) with BJJ, so everybody started looking for ways to win against it. If Internal Power was a viable way to do it, you can bet everybody would be scouring the earth trying to find the best IP training and spending all their time developing it.
Actually my MMA instructor in Germany, Steve Van Fleet believes that ashtanga yoga is the key to improvement and that in the future we will find fighters doing such things. He made me watch 3 hours of yoga one night and then spent 2 hours before we even started rolling doing sun salutations and other such things, then proceeded to show us the connection.

I listen to Steve mainly because he can do MMA, understands Army Combatives, and also can show the linkage.

This is why I also invest time in IMA, because I see value.

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Old 06-15-2008, 08:14 PM   #140
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Using your reasoning, I could also say that "if Internal Power was any good, boxers would have used it for generations because there's world fame and potentially millons of dollars riding on their success." It's a circular argument.
You should probably not say that, because boxers have not used it for generations, and they would've made it famous (like MMA) if it worked. Therefore, it has never been proven to be helpful in boxing, either.

But if you put a skilled MMA fighter in the ring with a skilled boxer, the MMA fighter is highly likely to win because he has techniques at his disposal that are PROVEN to be superior to boxing.

Maybe you have good reasons for not teaching to the military and law enforcement, but if you have something that works, you're missing out on fame and huge money by not turning average fighters into champions.

So I have stated my opinion. And when it's proven to improve my fighting ability then I'll be willing to learn and therefore know something about it. Seriously. As I've said, I'd love to be wrong about this because I'll use an advantage if I can gain it.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 06-15-2008 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:16 PM   #141
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

FWIW, I do think internal power can probably make you a better shot!
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:22 PM   #142
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
So I have stated my opinion. And when it's proven to improve my fighting ability then I'll be willing to learn and therefore know something about it. Seriously. As I've said, I'd love to be wrong about this because I'll use an advantage if I can gain it.
Everyone is welcome to state an opinion, but you do Aikido, right? When has Aikido ever been proven to improve fighting ability such that it would do MMA fighters any good? Is this just some sort of troll? Frankly from what I can see, the internal guys with real skills have obvious transfer to MMA, but apart from that if you like Aikido, the skill demonstrated here should be useful to that end as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAicu-IPjMw

The little guy looks tough, I would train with that guy any day. This is probably what Aikido should be able to do, but can't, which is what these guys have been saying here. It looks reasonable to me, and many members and senior members here have gone to see Mike or somebody else and vouched for it.

Now MMA fighters have a right to say they want something that can show some benefit in a few months, because they have time constraints on their careers and specific goals to meet in certain timetables. But an Aikido hobbyist? C'mon. That's just a personal choice. In fact I wouldn't expect most MMA fighters to pursue such things because most of them are probably boneheads who don't think outside the box, they just know they need to train Muay Thai, wrestling, and BJJ and go to a club that does that stuff. There are probably very few people who experiment and try to come up with really new things. Bas Rutten was one, but he's retired. Most fighters don't put that much creative effort in. You have to go looking for things, not expect them to magically come looking for you, so the fact that MMA will not be awash in internal methods any time soon isn't surprising, but doesn't mean the methods don't work. I'm a BJJ/MMA fan from way back, but I've been around enough to know that the traditional methods exist for a reason, and they're not all BS. That's certainly been verified by enough people here in this case.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:42 PM   #143
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
But if you put a skilled MMA fighter in the ring with a skilled boxer, the MMA fighter is highly likely to win because he has techniques at his disposal that are PROVEN to be superior to boxing.
Sorry Bill but your logic is lacking in this post as well as the previous one. As others have pointed out there are several errors in your logic so I will not spend time in revisiting what has already been expressed. You either get it or for various reasons your choose not to.

For the portion posted above your logic and reason are also flawed. Both MMA and boxing are governed by rules. The tactics used by both contestants is governed by the rules. Change the rules slightly and the tactics change greatly.

Years ago I read a great article about how pugulism changed through the past 100 years as the rules changed. I kick myself for not saving the article as it was outstanding. At the turn of the last century boxers stood very erect and stiff because it was within the rules to hook them behind the head and rabbit punch them. As these rules changed so did the style of boxing. Obviously the article went to greater lengths and detail but hopefully you get the idea.

When you say MMA has been proven to be superior to boxing I say using who's rules? I find it hard to believe that an MMA using boxing rules stands a chance. Look at the money! Top level MMA's make very little compared to top level boxers, if they could compete under those rules they would for economic reasons. Different rules, different tactics.

Since you have such high regard for MMA let's look at how even a slight change to the rules might drastically change the tactics. I say this because this thread is about real life situation and not ring life.

If we change the rules slightly to reflect possible real life situations are the MMA tactics still valid or the best? Let us say that once a round the Ref has the option to strike each fighter however and whenever he wants. Say a good solid strike to the back of the neck of the guy in the mount. Would that change the tactics? Or a good solid foot stomp to the guys face/throat to the guy in the guard. Change anything? How about if we give the ref has a weapon like a stick or a knife and 'wink, wink, nudge, nudge' that it is ok to use once or twice during the match. Would that tactics of the fighters change?

Perhaps we allow each contestant to allow a buddy to jump in once during the fight for 30 seconds. How would that change the fight? Would getting into the mount/guard be good idea early on? How about if each contestant was allowed to hide a small knife on his body for one round and bring it to bear when he saw fit. Would the tactics change? Would the wardrobe change? While all of these situations are impossible in the ring are any of them improbable in life?

Think about the popular MMA tactics and see which ones hold up to the above realities. Ever notice how real life fights last seconds and regulated ring fights generally last much longer?

None of this is to say MMA's are not tough nor that their methods are not good. This merely points out the flaw in any training method. Saying "If UFCers don't do it then it is not valid!" Is simply.....well supply your own personal favorite BS phrase.

Enjoy,

Mark J.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:53 PM   #144
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Mark Jakabcsin wrote: View Post
Both MMA and boxing are governed by rules. The tactics used by both contestants is governed by the rules. Change the rules slightly and the tactics change greatly.
Exactly. To match someone else's idea of rules and "flow", and all that, is a valid point of discussion when you're focused on doing things within a certain framework. However, how to hit very hard, how to "blend" with someone's forces (by that I'm generally referring to what somepeople are calling "aiki"), how to generate and transmit larger-than-ordinary forces with less-than-ordinary dependence on second-class leverage in the muscular system.... those things are separate from rules in the sense that they should be applicable through most of the spectrum of techniques, strategies, "flow", etc. In other words, those factors that comprise "internal strength" can be used in pretty much any physical format you want... but the format (or the rules) is not the set of skills.

FWIW

Mike
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:54 PM   #145
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

I shouldn't probably admit this on Aikiweb of all places, but I was in search of internal power (and some good throws) when I began training in Aikido. And while I've had some aiki moments in the last few years, I haven't found the magic powers I had hoped for so I am probably holding that against IMA, too.

Luckily, I happened to land at a Yoshinkan dojo that's highly martial and have the pleasure of practicing with some very convincing Shodans and Shihans. So I can say, the hard throws of Yoshinkan work. When we practice, we go along with them (like everybody says) but at our dojo the throw is happening regardless and if you take the ukemi right you don't get injured.

I've trained for some years in a number of MA and it's my studied opinion that power is found in perfected technique. Nothing else.
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Old 06-15-2008, 09:57 PM   #146
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

I agree that Bill's logic is flawed on this one.

However, MMA is closer to reality than boxing.

MMA can be a good way to develop good fighting skills that are applicable...as long as you keep in mind that there are rules, and train with that in perspective.

One thing that always concerns me on the whole "MMA has rules" argument is that people use it as an excuse to avoid training that way...for the wrong reasons!

There are things that you learn in a non-compliant MMA environment that simply cannot be learned in any other format.

vice, there are good reasons to study internal arts, run, jump, strength train, do push ups and everything else.

Training in martial arts is hard work. sadly, most people simply either do not have the time, or are not willing to put in the time necessary to do it the right way. (Not passing judgement on Bill, just making this statement).

We think we can go to 3 aikido classes per week, do just the partner training and we will get better.

It is not that easy.

Oh my gawd...I am starting to sound like Dan Harden!

I better quit while I am ahead!

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Old 06-15-2008, 10:07 PM   #147
Mark Jakabcsin
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Exactly. To match someone else's idea of rules and "flow", and all that, is a valid point of discussion when you're focused on doing things within a certain framework. However, how to hit very hard, how to "blend" with someone's forces (by that I'm generally referring to what somepeople are calling "aiki"), how to generate and transmit larger-than-ordinary forces with less-than-ordinary dependence on second-class leverage in the muscular system.... those things are separate from rules in the sense that they should be applicable through most of the spectrum of techniques, strategies, "flow", etc. In other words, those factors that comprise "internal strength" can be used in pretty much any physical format you want... but the format (or the rules) is not the set of skills.
Mike, while I totally agree I also note that each of use applies our own 'idea of rules' when we view / attempting to understand someone else's thoughts, movements, ideas; whether in writing or in person. If/when their input does not match our idea the tendency is to reject it initially. If we put the rubber to the road as Kevin suggests it can sometimes become harder to hang onto our negative views. I.E. it is hard to say X is ineffective when the practitioner of X is beating me like a junkyard dog on a short leash.

The more I learn the more I understand how little I know.

Mark J.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:15 PM   #148
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I've trained for some years in a number of MA and it's my studied opinion that power is found in perfected technique. Nothing else.
Bill,
I guess we are at different points. After many years of technique training I gave it up several years ago and have found that my ability to produce and apply power have increased drastically. Easily, that past 18 months of training have been my must fruitful and yet I have not mastered a single 'technique'. Heck I am very bored training technique and avoid it whenever socially possible. This is not to say technique training does not have it's place, surely it does.

Best,

Mark J.
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:15 PM   #149
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

Just read what was being posted while I was also typing. Here is why I'm sticking to the UFC example (and feel free to add real combat, law enforcement experiences to this)- These guys are using their skills to win actual fights against people who want to win, too. UFC, combat, etc. is not like court. You can't win by having a good argument.

I'd like to hear some examples of people who have used internal power to win fights. Don't try to convince me I'm wrong. Convince me you're right!
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Old 06-15-2008, 10:17 PM   #150
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Military Training Methodologies

No, I disagree that power is found in perfected technique. Maybe it is just semantics, but how I see technique is a isolated series of steps that if applied in a particular way, lead to a particular result.

If it where true that perfected technique leads to power, then I should be able direct transferrence from my TMA background over to MMA. After 10 years or so of TMA training, in which I worked on many techniques and kata..I did very poor against those that had trained for much less time.

Then again, I guess it depends on how you define power.

Sort of reminds me of my racing days. I used to race a 1988 BMW M3 with about 215 HP. I raced a impala SS back around 1998. It must have been putting out close to 350 HP. lots of power, lots of torque...but what could it do with it on the track?

It depended on the track (situation). On a road racing circuit it was just too heavy and unbalanced to work the track. My little M3 simply out manuevered it in the corners, breaking, etc.

I also simply raced better than the guy driving the impala.

It could have been that I could have traded cars with him and beat him as well. Simply because I had more skill in driving the track.

So, power for the sake of power is not everything, you have to be able to do something with it.

Techniques are not everything either. You have to be able to link it together with timing, speed, and agility to make it work.

Anyway, that is how I view techniques.

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