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Old 06-12-2008, 09:32 PM   #1
Buck
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Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Wow! I can't start to comprehend all the discussions here about men and women. For instance, who is the strongest, which sex is better at..., why there are more men in Aikido then women etc. I just had to wipe my brow in a sigh of relief after that.

I didn't search all the threads here about men and women, I might be digging up a Zombie but here goes it.

It is interesting to me and it may apply to many a thread that women are motivated to be violent, to be motivate to protect themselves, etc. when a personal issue is involved. Whereas men don't need a person issue to motivate them to fight, be violent, etc.

A women's motivator is far different then what motivates men (that doesn't take much). A women has to have a personal issue. For some women that personal issue has to be very very personal.

I believe this is the major answer to many a discussion about women and Aikido, from recruiting women into the dojo, the low numbers of women in the dojo, to the drop out rates, to why women sign on to Aikido and those who stick with it, to those disgruntled because of the way they are treated in a dojo. I don't even know if women realize it themselves that a key motivator for them to is personal issues. Heck men don't at all.

I bring this up because I was watching a documentary on female gang members. One of the experts had said the difference between what makes women do violence then men is that women have to have a personal issue as a reason to commit violence. Hell hath no fury like a women scorned! Maybe that saying has more insight and is taken too lightly, and need to addressed more in depth in discussions. I think it is the answer to many of the discussion about women and Aikido.

Last edited by Buck : 06-12-2008 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:22 AM   #2
Lauren Walsh
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

An interesting point! But I don't think anyone, regardless of gender, studies Aikido in order to be violent or to vent aggression. I am in the same boat as you when it comes to reading through all these discussions which are basically centred on the concept of men vs. women. I think it just needs to be remembered that the nature of men and the nature of women has always been, and always will be, very different. I agree with your point on what motivates violence between men and women, it resonates throughout all the natural world. It is instinctive for men to react aggressively when challenged or intimidated, and thus most fighting that occurs in nature is between males. The responsibilities of females in nature usually doesn't entail protecting territory or fighting for the right to mate, so aren't typically build to for serious physical altercations.

As for Aikido, it isn't a place for violence or the cultivation of violent tendencies. Why are there less women in Aikido than men? I don't know. Why is there a larger drop out rate of women? I don't know. Maybe it isn't even a gender issue. We are all individuals, all driven onward by our own individual emotions, experiences and demons. Perhaps its more constructive not to compare the two sexes, but rather search for ways by which we can balance ourselves as individuals (our own Yin and Yang) and examine our own individual weaknesses and strengths so that we can reach our potensial. We can't do that by forever limiting ourselves to generalisations about gender.

"The warrior's ultimate ideal is for when the sword resides not in the hand, but in the heart."
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:12 AM   #3
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

There is strength and there is power.

Men are "stronger". Get over it. Women's hips are wider (designed this way for having babies). So their legs don't go as straight down as mens. For women, that angle gets compensated for at their knees which is simply a physically weaker structure.

Female beginners who get past being annoyed (and injured) by all of the male beginners constantly trying to muscle them (somewhat successfully), have a better chance of developing "power" much more quickly.

As far as the personal reason. What is the stat for women being sexually abused, something terrible like 1/6 or something? (I don't know this to be accurate.) Regardless, I would imagine that the number is high. There are enough other reasons, but I'm sure that factors in.

Then there is the weird social construct. Anyone shamed who wasn't the prom/home coming queen has to deal with some (most likely painful) memories of past social situations. Then they show up to dojos where there tends to always be a queen bee. It's always interesting to see how a new female in initiated into that quasi-social pecking order. People keep working on their issues by creating opportunities to relive them (but rarely change anything to solve the issue once and for all).

Rob
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:25 AM   #4
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

I think it's a good issue to discuss. Even though there are gender differences, the human condition is much the same. I don't think everything can be summed up by biology. It might be a good idea to discuss the issue with some actual women. Having women in the dojo does change things. Women are hoping to be treated fairly, but men may or may not be treating all students the same.

As to why there are fewer women than men, it could be that martial arts is still seen by many as a male domain. I haven't seen much on television about female martial artists. A long while back there was something on television about a girl and a father who went into Karate together and she ended up winning a lot of competitions. That was the first thing that inspired me to think about martial arts.

I think having role models is important to women. For women, it is a very different world than we, and our mothers grew up in, and women can do a lot in today's world that they could not do before. Since it's not what we grew up with, the difference between knowing you can do "anything" and actually doing it can be based on having a role model, someone who's actually doing it one can identify with .That's why having role models is so important. I have noticed that men I know who had female instructors are able to picture a woman as capable of being a strong martial artist and therefore more likely to inspire female students of their own to succeed. It is a worthwhile pursuit to inspire women to try Aikido.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:38 AM   #5
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Hi folks,

Before this thread goes too far in its discussion, I want to encourage people to please keep your discussion in this thread explicitly related to aikido. I know from experience that topics of this kind often have a way of heatedly moving off of the topic of aikido and wish to ask you folks to help keep things on-topic. As always, people are welcome to discuss non-aikido-specific topics in the Open Discussions Forum.

Thank you,

-- Jun

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Old 06-13-2008, 10:39 AM   #6
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

My only knee jerk reaction to your post is that women in aikido are being compared to female gang members. I have to point out that is not really a fair comparison, and I agree with Lauren that most people, women AND men, who join aikido are not looking to vent aggression.

Now...on to what I think is actually the point...

You know what, I do not think it's necessary to "figure out" the whole "women's issue." I run a women's aikido board and the biggest difference I have seen isn't really that big or huge or very profound. It's just that we like martial arts and aikido in particular and other women don't. I participate on other boards where women dominate - at home fitness and work out enthusiasts. They love to workout, train for marathons and could run circles around a lot of people. A small minority of us on that board actually practice a martial art. Those of us that do practice anywhere from MMA, judo, TKD, aikido, karate or kung fu.

The difference? The great majority of these women are simply not interested in practicing a full-fledged martial art. They'd rather do marathons and triathlons. That's it, really.

The sexism that women do face in aikido really is miniscule. It exists and should be acknowledged when it arises, but please let's keep it in perspective, too.

Now, to your question. You stated that our motivation is different and that our motivation is personal. I can see that in the sense that women, in general (note: not all women), tend to be more social. Therefore, we seek out friendships and sometimes our motivation to go to class might be based upon seeing our other friends. But, this is not always the case. I also disagree in that it's personal, based on my discussions with other women, is that our motivation to train is not all that different from men. We train for spirit forging and for learning self-defense. We think martial arts are cool. Some of want to teach or maybe even start our own dojos. We love the breakfall and to train hard like everyone else.
You see, we really are not that different. And when there are differences it's slight not huge. Differences need to be respected yet kept in perspective.

My suggestion is to just stop trying to figure women out and simply just accept us for who we are and treat us with respect -- which in my experience, the super-great majority of men do anyway. That's it really. No more, no less.

Anne Marie Giri
Women in Aikido: a place where us gals can come together and chat about aikido.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:39 PM   #7
Dathan Camacho
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
There is strength and there is power.

Men are "stronger". Get over it. Women's hips are wider (designed this way for having babies). So their legs don't go as straight down as mens. For women, that angle gets compensated for at their knees which is simply a physically weaker structure.
I'm still a beginner in Aikido but this quote sends a red flag up in my mind.

Strength is a very tricky word. When I started Aikido I was very "strong" and could bench press a lot of weight, but I couldn't stand on one foot without falling over.

Doesn't Aikido teach a more holistic definition of strength that includes dynamic power, static power, timing, flexibilty, balance, and other strengths that are beyond my limited understanding? Are any of these are more important than the other?

Men might be inherently more muscular than women, but women are more flexible, which maybe you could make an argument that those are a wash.

What is statistically different is that men, on average are larger than women, i.e. the average of male heights is 5'8" whereas the average of female heights is 5'4". But does this difference matter, i.e. is mass emphasized as a strength in Aikido?

Just an anecdote from my experience - I'm a large guy but my female sempai has the best ukemi I've ever seen in my limited exposure, has the technique to easily overcome me during randori, AND I can't keep up with her in our warm up exercises (which include strength training components). I don't think gender has held her back at all. My male tendancy to value the bench-press type of strength did hold me back at first.
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Old 06-13-2008, 12:49 PM   #8
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
You know what, I do not think it's necessary to "figure out" the whole "women's issue."
Oh, thank God, someone said it.

Women are not an "issue". Women do not have an "issue". We're human beings. Whenever someone (particularly a man) starts speaking of us categorically, or analyzing what our "problem" is, my reaction is, "Speak for yourself and leave me the hell alone."

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
I run a women's aikido board
Yes????
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Old 06-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #9
rob_liberti
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Dathan, what I was referring to as "power" seems to fit what I believe you were referring to in terms of a more holistic definition of strength.

When we speak about aikido, it is commonly accepted that the levels are:
-strength
-technique
-harmony
-michi

To say "strength" in aikido most people typically mean "muscle power". I understand your point thay women tend to have more flexibility. However, there is obviously a difference in terms of over all "external power" between the genders or the Olympics wouldn't have a mens events and womens events separated.

To be strong AND flexible is certainly the beginning of developing martial power (which can be internal and/or external power).

In aikido, we are _hopefully_ trying to work internal power. To that end, my opinion is that women have an advantage provided they can get past the many obsticles. As I said before, people (typically beginner men) who don't know any better tend to muscle everyone - which just makes things more difficult.

Rob
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Old 06-13-2008, 02:34 PM   #10
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yes????
Yup. The link is in my sig. It's our little community in cyberspace. It has more of a "Girls Night Out Feel" than anything else. It's not everyone's taste. But, it's a great place for those of us who find a need for it in their life. I found a need for such a site so I created it for other gals who need it, too. I've been running it since November 2001. Come by and give us a visit.

(P.S. Excessive use of smilies are encouraged there. )

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 06-13-2008, 04:17 PM   #11
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Women are not an "issue". Women do not have an "issue". We're human beings. Whenever someone (particularly a man) starts speaking of us categorically, or analyzing what our "problem" is, my reaction is, "Speak for yourself and leave me the hell alone."
You may be in danger of unmaking your point here, Mary.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:07 PM   #12
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post

Women are not an "issue". Women do not have an "issue". We're human beings. Whenever someone (particularly a man) starts speaking of us categorically, or analyzing what our "problem" is, my reaction is, "Speak for yourself and leave me the hell alone."

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
You may be in danger of unmaking your point here, Mary.
Too funny

Roberta
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:16 PM   #13
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Anne Marie Giri wrote: View Post
My only knee jerk reaction to your post is that women in aikido are being compared to female gang members. I have to point out that is not really a fair comparison, and I agree with Lauren that most people, women AND men, who join aikido are not looking to vent aggression.

Now...on to what I think is actually the point...

You know what, I do not think it's necessary to "figure out" the whole "women's issue." I run a women's aikido board and the biggest difference I have seen isn't really that big or huge or very profound. It's just that we like martial arts and aikido in particular and other women don't. I participate on other boards where women dominate - at home fitness and work out enthusiasts. They love to workout, train for marathons and could run circles around a lot of people. A small minority of us on that board actually practice a martial art. Those of us that do practice anywhere from MMA, judo, TKD, aikido, karate or kung fu.

The difference? The great majority of these women are simply not interested in practicing a full-fledged martial art. They'd rather do marathons and triathlons. That's it, really.

The sexism that women do face in aikido really is miniscule. It exists and should be acknowledged when it arises, but please let's keep it in perspective, too.

Now, to your question. You stated that our motivation is different and that our motivation is personal. I can see that in the sense that women, in general (note: not all women), tend to be more social. Therefore, we seek out friendships and sometimes our motivation to go to class might be based upon seeing our other friends. But, this is not always the case. I also disagree in that it's personal, based on my discussions with other women, is that our motivation to train is not all that different from men. We train for spirit forging and for learning self-defense. We think martial arts are cool. Some of want to teach or maybe even start our own dojos. We love the breakfall and to train hard like everyone else.
You see, we really are not that different. And when there are differences it's slight not huge. Differences need to be respected yet kept in perspective.

My suggestion is to just stop trying to figure women out and simply just accept us for who we are and treat us with respect -- which in my experience, the super-great majority of men do anyway. That's it really. No more, no less.
Yea, I'd agree, it was a knee jerk reaction.

Women are women no matter what they affiliate themselves with.

Gosh, I don't know why the strong focus on sexism all the time is about? I am a wimpy male, drat! I am left out in the dark.

And OK I am not the best at laying out my thought when starting threads. I need more practice, I'd be the first to admit it.

According to an expert on the knowledge on what motivates female gang members to be violent- could transfer to how women look at Aikido and other reasons. That is female gang members who do "work" it is because they need a personal issue to do so. Otherwise they aren't motivate to "work." Which got me thinking that sometimes when we look at an outside extreme it gives us insight to solving the problem that we face in Aikido a.k.a. finding the harmony.

Aikido is a martial art. We all know what martial means. Aikido has a fighting side, to defend yourself with martial application, and that is what is heavily practiced in the dojo. Allot of women in Aikido are hesitant to apply what they know when needed. It might be helpful to know that women need a personal issue to trigger their motivation to say defend themselves or become more intense in their training.

Being more intense does have many benefits physically as exercise, mentally as stress reduction, and spiritually learning more about that in Aikido. Then there, if desired, the ability to protect yourself. But, to practice Aikido absent of the martial art is not practicing Aikido to the fullest. I am not saying you have to be about fighting and use Aikido in a fight. But defending yourself is a part of Aikido. Aikido isn't about the art of Ukemi, for example.

There are many reasons why women get into Aikido, fighting isn't on the top of their list, why? Possibly because they don't have a personal issue or aware of one to put it at the top of their list. Understanding that is a great help I am sure.

Knowing women need a personal issue to fight might provide a better approach and understanding in womans training. It might reduce the issues men and women that some deal with in the dojo as reflected in so many threads about women in Aikido. It might help in the way to attract women to Aikido and make them feel more comfortable when it is understood what motivates women.

Women outside of Aikido look at Aikido as a martial art, and that means fighting. It doesn't mean dance lessons. Women new or outside of Aikido might not choose Aikido because they don't have a need, i.e. or a personal issue. They may or may not be consciously aware of this, and just may simply say they are not interested.

It may also help others students and sensei's who don't know what motivates women -including women I don't want to be targeted as a sexist- and are struggling in some way because of it.

I told of a time once when I with others where having a hard time attracting women to a class, and if I knew what I know now, I could have attracted more women and facilitated them better in Aikido. That is the positive angle I am working here. As much fun it is to be in the war of the roses, and keep those fires burning that is not what I am about. I am about finding solutions and this just might be a worth while solution when it comes to some of the issues in the dojo.

It seems to me very plausible that women have a motivation trigger that comes from having personal issue, which is far different then men. Maybe if in the dojo, if personal issues where to be examined it could be useful to increase motivation and long term retention of women in the dojo.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:36 PM   #14
Buck
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Mary and Ann, I don't know you, but there are allot of mean things you are saying. But could there be a personal issue behind your words and attitudes? With such strongly worded attitudes, I wonder if there is hope for humanity- women are a part of it too, they have an equal responsibility.

It seems you don't want to find harmony and rather would keep the conflict between men and women alive.

In your words if you replaced women with men, it would be no different then the men you seem to be at odds with. We are not all like what you makes us out to be. And I don't know if your attitudes do justify your group dynamics, and women only club- No boys allow. But, from how you say things I can't think otherwise.

Maybe if O'Sensei (which I guess is not vogue any more and for not knowing the proper title) was a women you two would feel more comfortable, I don't know. But your strong attitudes in my mind are from a personal issue, which is nothing more then a red flag. And all I see is a power struggle and nothing interpersonal. Mary your safe, flashing your teeth did scare me, no need to worry, I am not trying to figure you out and expose you in anyway. My purpose is rooted in humanity, finding common ground to find harmony, hoping to help other to do the same. I care about the community. It is an Athenian thing to do. I am not concern if O'Sensei was a male or female, I am concerned that he was a good Athenian.

Anne, one last thing you have a website just for females, yet you partake in a board open to both sexes, why?

Last edited by Buck : 06-13-2008 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:46 PM   #15
Janet Rosen
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

I'm confused. Mary and Ann, at least as I'm reading it, are saying, nope no issue. We'se people. Philip, how do you read that as separating? I read it as uniting.
Me, I don't really give a whatever how many women do or don't train in aikido. My only concern is that those of us who do train are treated equitably, and in my own experience, as dojo member or visitor, that has never been a problem.

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Old 06-13-2008, 08:26 PM   #16
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

IMHO, treat people respectfully on and off the mat and you don't have to worry much about scorn from either sex.

Lynn Seiser PhD
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:56 PM   #17
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

My mother raised gentlemen, and I've always taught my sons to offer the appropriate courtesies. I'd expect there are those that find this chauvanistic but I happen to regard it as part of the genteel tradition.

I don't care. My Slavic (Eastern European) upbringing was very matriarchal and it's what they insisted on. That did well for me along the way because the nuns that taught me in school would've cracked my skull had I not opened doors, said "Maam" and helped the ladies with their coats.

My older son and I've had a couple of very formidable female senseis but I've strictly reminded him that "Sensei has no hands and no pockets." when they reach for their dogi bags. (As most of you know, we're honored to afford the same courtesy to our male senseis).

So, sorry. I'm raising gentleman warriors. On the mat, all Aikidoka are the same. Off the mat we practice "sexism" with pride.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:03 PM   #18
Dathan Camacho
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
My older son and I've had a couple of very formidable female senseis but I've strictly reminded him that "Sensei has no hands and no pockets." when they reach for their dogi bags.
What does this mean?
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:18 PM   #19
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I'm confused. Mary and Ann, at least as I'm reading it, are saying, nope no issue. We'se people. Philip, how do you read that as separating? I read it as uniting.
Me, I don't really give a whatever how many women do or don't train in aikido. My only concern is that those of us who do train are treated equitably, and in my own experience, as dojo member or visitor, that has never been a problem.
It is funny how topics get out of shape. Seems lots of people have issues with the opposite sex, and themselves- they have no inner peace. All I said was hey, this might work and wham! I don't recognize the anything being said. Talk about ideomotor response.

Janet to answer your question, I don't know anything about not having or having an issue or uniting or not uniting. I can't answer your question. I am not even talking about respect or lack of it, well maybe for us wimpy short guys who are not the Alpha males top on the female mating list- we git no respect! I am talking about a solution that may apply to many problems.

What is at hand in understanding something not readily known about females that possible could help with many issues faced by both sexes in the dojo. Communication and understanding is the way of peace. But alas, it has gone sour.

For this jewel of information that I stumbled on which I never knew about is highly valuable to me. For now I have a tool for better understanding that leads to greater learning, teaching, and for greater harmony in mine and those women who seek or are involved in the Aikido experience. At least the nice ones, not the mean ones. I feel I am a rich man because now I understand.

Last edited by Buck : 06-13-2008 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:17 PM   #20
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Phillip wrote:
What is at hand in understanding something not readily known about females that possible could help with many issues faced by both sexes in the dojo. Communication and understanding is the way of peace. But alas, it has gone sour.
Actually, Phil, I would offer that communication and understanding are severely lacking in this thread. Our lady compatriots are not getting the gist(understanding) of your intention. And you are, quite frankly, not saying it very well(communication).

I mean, the very fact that you are getting unexpectedly aggressive replys might suggest that your thesis is less than appealing, and so, less than founded. I would suggest that as either male or female aikidoka develop in the art, that the threshold for committing a violent act, be it aiki or otherwise, is both broadened and heavily influenced by personal factors. ie, it shows a reduction in indiscriminate (or perhaps less discriminate) violence/aggression.


Or I could more simply say that anyone who belittles the female capacity for violence (emotional or physical), just hasn't been around enough of them

yada yada yada.

Just curious, Phillip, are you multilingual?

michael.

Last edited by MikeLogan : 06-13-2008 at 11:21 PM.

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Old 06-13-2008, 11:21 PM   #21
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Dathan Camacho wrote: View Post
What does this mean?
"Sensei has no hands; no pockets" is an expression of respect and gratitude for your sensei. It means that while your sensei is in your company, they don't carry anything for themselves or pay for anything themselves. (Although Robert Mustard Sensei will often insist on buying rounds and who's going to argue with him?).

It also means that the uchi deshi (or senior students) accept any challenges on sensei's behalf if the occasion arises. Sensei cleans up if you lose, though.

You also need to know how to fold a hakama if you're following this tradition properly.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:32 PM   #22
Dathan Camacho
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Thanks, makes sense. Last question - the part about folding the hakama. Does that mean you're supposed to fold your sensei's hakama? Sorry if this is off topic, but I'm learning here!
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Old 06-14-2008, 03:06 AM   #23
nekobaka
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

At least at my dojo, I find the most of the yudansha are better at treating the women more equally than the newbies. Maybe the true meaning of aikido has become part of their philosophy, maybe purely through experience they have come in contact with "good" women, and it doesn't phase them anymore. One fairly new guy is over 50, has his own company, and is very strong. He usually stops me and I find myself fighting against him. I often ask myself, what is his issue? Does he stop everyone? Does he find it difficult to accept advice (doesn't listen to a word of mine) from a foreign female who is 20 years younger than he is? our ego can be a burden. It goes so beyond just gender. As women we sometimes expect a brake since we know we aren't as strong. Or then we feel irritated that they don't give an honest attack. As men do you feel like you have to prove how strong you are? If you are older, do you have to prove your wisdom? If you are yudansha, do you have to prove your skill? The thing that is so great about my sensei is that his attack is always slightly stronger than what we could maneuver with strength. You really have to do the technique correctly, or he overpowers you. What does it say about me, if I get slight pleasure out of seeing the guys that are really strong unable to move him, because they don't concentrate on the flow and timing of the technique, they always rely on their strength. I hope that someday I can interact with people like this and not think anything of it.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:12 AM   #24
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Dathan Camacho wrote: View Post
Does that mean you're supposed to fold your sensei's hakama?
Yes, it's considered to be very good manners. Here are a couple of different ways:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVN57Y4awrw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f2K5...eature=related
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:54 AM   #25
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Re: Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned: Threads About Women In Aikido

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
Actually, Phil, I would offer that communication and understanding are severely lacking in this thread. Our lady compatriots are not getting the gist(understanding) of your intention. And you are, quite frankly, not saying it very well(communication).

I mean, the very fact that you are getting unexpectedly aggressive replys might suggest that your thesis is less than appealing, and so, less than founded. I would suggest that as either male or female aikidoka develop in the art, that the threshold for committing a violent act, be it aiki or otherwise, is both broadened and heavily influenced by personal factors. ie, it shows a reduction in indiscriminate (or perhaps less discriminate) violence/aggression.

Or I could more simply say that anyone who belittles the female capacity for violence (emotional or physical), just hasn't been around enough of them

yada yada yada.

Just curious, Phillip, are you multilingual?

michael.
Someone get the cheese, here comes the whine.
I respectfully disagree.

I am getting aggressive replies because those individuals are doing so is because they choose too. Anything short of saying all women are victimized by oppressing all men who are insensitive evil sexist monsters with equally sized egos will get negative response from these individuals. If you don't agree with them, you are the enemy.

My purpose was to highlight a positive. Because it was a positive in understanding women, it was seen by some as an opportunity and a threat. Because of that, my observations and myself where attacked and are being attacked.

It is time to move on. As I do, I want to say that understanding objectively that women need a strong motivator to attract and keep women interested in Aikido may solve many previous issues and change the way women are approached in Aikido. This may not be said as pretty, or a specific, etc. that some want to hear it. They will find it an opportunity to be offended or use it to attack others. I do feel bad that there are those who want to sabotage the friendship and dampen the understanding that does happen between women and men in Aikido.

I think everyone can benefit from what I learned from a female expert on female behavior. There is nothing wrong in my world to take something seemingly negative like the information I took and then turn it into something positive that will benefit ALL those in Aikido. Which I am proud and honored to be a part of.

This really has been a learning experience.

Last edited by Buck : 06-14-2008 at 09:58 AM.
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