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Old 06-10-2008, 05:56 PM   #51
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Sounds like fun...name the day...we have a dojo right at our house.
You are welcome anytime....the Berkshires are nice in the summer.
Mary
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:03 PM   #52
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
Ahhh...that's why I teach women "yin/internal" method. They play a different game. Yet, most teachers (male and female) insist that everyone "all students" should move like the majority of "men" students.

So, I agree..."MALE PRESENTATION, male ritual combat is one of evolution's means of demonstrating "the alpha male" and his superior immune system. (Nonetheless, the act of presentation has to do with the female's CHOICE.)

Nonetheless, in nature...females do most of the killing and males do most of the scavenging.

It is not a matter of one being better than the other. Females are powerful in their "sensitivities" and Males are powerful in their physical strength (notwithstanding outliers). Each plays a role.

I for one, sit in my chair watching the Celtics trounce the Lakers. But, then I know my place. When the game is over, I follow my wife's orders, "Go take out the garbage". And then angrily I say to myself "I know who the boss is!"
Male ritual combat isn't always the "woman's choice." Men have no trouble getting into a brawl over a woman who is not even in the room.

IMO, and IME, women -- and also smaller, weaker men -- have to make up for lesser muscle power with greater tactics and "smarts," plus killer attitude, fudoshin. Adrenalin, controled, can make up for lack of muscle mass, I know this from firsthand experience. Against a large male psychotic from drugs, who felt no pain and came at me like a locomotive, swinging, and grabbing. I successfully broke his knee so he couldn't stand. End of attack.

And going back to my previous post, it doesn't take much to drop even a large man, because all the muscle mass in the world doesn't cover the carotid artery and other key spots. With a very soft strike, a 5'6" woman I know once dropped a muscular 6' man who outsized her by a good 50-60 lbs. Knocked him out cold with just one relaxed, simple move, and he dropped like a bag of cement. It's not all about muscle. Smarts, tactics, timing, and attitude.

Most germaine to the whole idea of male vs. female "strength," for me, comes down to what was said earlier about women having a different response to violence than men. It is a reflection of how a "person" fights OUTSIDE of male ritual combat. Men fight for status and power; women fight for their lives. It makes a huge difference when fighting "on the street." If a woman harnesses her fear in a life-or-death conflict and uses her training in tandem with it, she stands a pretty fair chance of surviving, and of seriously damaging and perhaps killing her attacker.

It brings to mind the old story about the Japanese monks who were watching a fox chase a rabbit. "The rabbit will win; the fox will lose," says one monk. "How can you know that," asks the second monk. "Because," says the first, "the fox is running only for his dinner; the rabbit is running for his life."

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 06-10-2008 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 06-10-2008, 07:28 PM   #53
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Male ritual combat isn't always the "woman's choice." Men have no trouble getting into a brawl over a woman who is not even in the room.

IMO, and IME, women -- and also smaller, weaker men -- have to make up for lesser muscle power with greater tactics and "smarts," plus killer attitude, fudoshin. Adrenalin, controled, can make up for lack of muscle mass, I know this from firsthand experience. Against a large male psychotic from drugs, who felt no pain and came at me like a locomotive, swinging, and grabbing. I successfully broke his knee so he couldn't stand. End of attack.

And going back to my previous post, it doesn't take much to drop even a large man, because all the muscle mass in the world doesn't cover the carotid artery and other key spots. With a very soft strike, a 5'6" woman I know once dropped a muscular 6' man who outsized her by a good 50-60 lbs. Knocked him out cold with just one relaxed, simple move, and he dropped like a bag of cement. It's not all about muscle. Smarts, tactics, timing, and attitude.

Most germaine to the whole idea of male vs. female "strength," for me, comes down to what was said earlier about women having a different response to violence than men. It is a reflection of how a "person" fights OUTSIDE of male ritual combat. Men fight for status and power; women fight for their lives. It makes a huge difference when fighting "on the street." If a woman harnesses her fear in a life-or-death conflict and uses her training in tandem with it, she stands a pretty fair chance of surviving, and of seriously damaging and perhaps killing her attacker.

It brings to mind the old story about the Japanese monks who were watching a fox chase a rabbit. "The rabbit will win; the fox will lose," says one monk. "How can you know that," asks the second monk. "Because," says the first, "the fox is running only for his dinner; the rabbit is running for his life."
In total agreement. (PS Thank you for the evolutionary biology conversation...now back to the Celtics)

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:07 PM   #54
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
IMO, and IME, women -- and also smaller, weaker men -- have to make up for lesser muscle power with greater tactics and "smarts," plus killer attitude, fudoshin.
Well, most usually with a weapon ...

Well done on your personal victory BTW, I wish I could get my wife to feel a strong enough urge to learn to protect herself (from me at the least, considering how I've managed to hurt her accidentally at times!). The latest stabbing frenzy in everyone's favourite electronics and anime haunt in Tokyo has proved a "good" incentive.

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
It brings to mind the old story about the Japanese monks who were watching a fox chase a rabbit. "The rabbit will win; the fox will lose," says one monk. "How can you know that," asks the second monk. "Because," says the first, "the fox is running only for his dinner; the rabbit is running for his life."
Um, if that were really true, foxes would starve. When is "only a dinner" really only a dinner? When the fox isn't starving... Maybe the point of the story was a bit different? Sort of like surviving an "investigative event" by a great white pointer compared to a "predatory event"? <shudder>
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:33 PM   #55
Buck
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

I am a small framed short man, a.k.a wimp. Most women could take me in a fight, if it wasn't for Aikido. When I was in high school I was picked on by guys bigger and stronger. I think there is the myth that all men are stronger then women. That is just not true. I have been K.O. (by accident) by a women once. I have had the wind knocked out of me by a women. Women can do damage. How many of us guys have had our packages rattled by a well focus and placed attack by a women. It is a myth that people support resulting putting women at a disadvantage. It is the myth that makes women weak, and makes them think they are weak. Even the most biggest strongest women.

But this Victorian and post-Victorian view of women being helpless and weak is just women cultured to be weak. A guy who admits he was beat up, hurt, etc. by a girl is humiliated and branded by other men. But if we men are get a shot to the groin (being defeated by a women) that is a different story. Just other examples of how we are to enforce the culture of the weaker sex being women.

Smaller framed and weaker men who are not the jocks but the geeks and the nerds who get beat up by the stronger larger more muscled jocks are in the same position women are. We are at a more disadvantage then women. Because we are humiliated by society. For one, women are not attracted to us like they are the stronger physiqued male species. Two, we are shamed by both men and women if we are beat up by a women. Lastly, we are wimps, nerds, and geeks, thus because of that we are targets of bullies both female (usually verbally humiliating type) and males (physical). No one cuts us males any slack.

Yes, we are on the same ground as women. To say all women are at a disadvantage to all men -because men have a stronger anatomical features -it isn't true. Not all of us men are a Lou Ferrigno, some of us got cheated on the testosterone supply. And we CAN'T equalize it by using sex as a weapon!

Last edited by Buck : 06-10-2008 at 08:38 PM.
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:53 PM   #56
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

I feel for you Philip, I really do. You really let it all hang out there didn't you LOL I've seen my share of such encounters, but I've stayed away from such women myself. Pick on the smaller ones I always says to myself. One solution is to grow up on a diet that makes you fairly big, and then move to a place where the diet makes people fairly small. Works for me <g>
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:26 PM   #57
Keith Larman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Yes, we are on the same ground as women. To say all women are at a disadvantage to all men -because men have a stronger anatomical features -it isn't true. Not all of us men are a Lou Ferrigno, some of us got cheated on the testosterone supply.
Again, exceptions do not make the rule. And NO ONE said all men are stronger than all women. The original statement was a generalization. A group mean. One with ample evidence to substantiate it. Of course a generalization is a summary of a larger, much more diverse group. OF COURSE it does not mean that all men are stronger than all women. That is absurd. To state a fact does not mean that anyone is trying to denigrate women or "keep women in their place". That is absolutely ridiculous.

Good lord, I spent 17 years working in research working often with bio-data on stuff like this. Why is this such a hard concept?

Okay, okay, okay... I give up. We're all the same. Let's all hold hands, sing "shamabala" and the world will be exactly the way we want it to be... I guess I'm a total neanderthal for even suggesting that women on the average aren't as strong as men on the average.

We're all the same, we're all the same, we're all the same. Now excuse me while I go breast feed by daughter...

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Old 06-10-2008, 09:50 PM   #58
Lauren Walsh
 
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

This is an interesting topic indeed, as are eveyone's responses to the subject. It would be incredibly nieve to think that women in general are physically stronger than men in general. If two "average" martially un-trained people of the opposite sex faced off on the street, then yes, the female would probably be overcome physically.

However, if a man and a woman are both trained in a martial sense then there are many factors which should be considered other than strength. The victor won't neccessarily be determined by muscle-mass or testosterone levels, but rather by the individual's talent and physical comprehension of their own training or martial art.

I think it is very important to remember that power is infinately stronger that strength. There is a very distinct difference between the two.

For arguments sake, yes, men are of greater physcial prowess than women. Simple. But then it is also important that men do not underestimate a women based on gender. In fact it's best to never underestimate anyone, regardless. Period.

"The warrior's ultimate ideal is for when the sword resides not in the hand, but in the heart."
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:09 AM   #59
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women


Keith, it's KUMBAYA...

Mary,

Quote:
What would the challenge be, Ron?
Which one? There are many...Keith mentioned one of my main ones. Above that:

To Be Human. Regardless of situation. Tough challenge.

For more on Keith's points, I'm not as large as he is, but I am relatively strong. (not compared to Dan, but to your average dojo bunny ), and really stiff. Tension seems to be my middle name. So I'm trying really hard to find the balance between tensile strength and being a wet noodle. Proper relaxation, I guess you would call it. Along with the strengh of mind to maintain that under serious pressure. Aikido is an art filled with lovely contradictions:

Don't hurt your partner, but really throw him.

Relax, but stay strong.

Be focused, but not to the exclusion of what is around you.

Do not allow your mind to be moved, but give way when faced with greater force.

If uke comes with 8, meet, join and vanquish him with 2.

If uke comes with 2, meet, join and vanquish him with 8.

Yikes.

Too many damn contradictions! Doncha' just love it?!?!?

Best,
Ron

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Old 06-11-2008, 08:45 AM   #60
Keith Larman
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post

Keith, it's KUMBAYA...
Oh, yeah.

The kid is rather fond of my old Three Dog Night cd. And since I'd rather stick long needles through my eardrums than listen to the Alvin and the Chipmunks disc or the Hannah Montana disc (aaaiiiEEEEE!!!!) one more time we've been listening to Three Dog Night on solid rotation... "I'm on the road to Shambala... " At least I can live with that. Of course now that we've listened to Shambala roughly 83 thousand times (that's my low estimate) I'm searching for something else she might like.

Hmmm, I wonder if she'd like Nine Inch Nails...

P.S. Ron -- we call it "controlled relaxation" fwiw. Something I try to do every time the kid starts asking about listening to Shambala again... "Breath, breath, at least she's not asking for Alvin and the Chipmunks..."

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Old 06-11-2008, 07:09 PM   #61
Buck
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Gernot Hassenpflug wrote: View Post
I feel for you Philip, I really do. You really let it all hang out there didn't you LOL I've seen my share of such encounters, but I've stayed away from such women myself. Pick on the smaller ones I always says to myself. One solution is to grow up on a diet that makes you fairly big, and then move to a place where the diet makes people fairly small. Works for me
The best advice I've gotten all day, though I missed the bus on the diet and growing. I guess I will just have to keep dodging the size 6 secretaries, ahhhh shucks.....more bruises.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:21 PM   #62
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Phillip,
Ever notice in the newspapers when there is an article about some guy who is attacked by a dog? Such a big to-do. Come to find out it turns out to be something like a 90 lb. German shepherd, and the man is a 180, 5'11" guy. But he is outmatched by a dog half his weight?

In another story maybe 10 years ago, a 105 lb. woman was attacked by a 125 lb. wolf in a remote part of the Navajo Nation where she lived. She managed to get on its back and grapple it down into a submission choke. She won.

Fighting is not always about strength, but how you use your weapons.
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Old 06-11-2008, 09:28 PM   #63
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

It is also about the situation an luck.

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Old 06-11-2008, 10:22 PM   #64
Buck
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Phillip,
Ever notice in the newspapers when there is an article about some guy who is attacked by a dog? Such a big to-do. Come to find out it turns out to be something like a 90 lb. German shepherd, and the man is a 180, 5'11" guy. But he is outmatched by a dog half his weight?

In another story maybe 10 years ago, a 105 lb. woman was attacked by a 125 lb. wolf in a remote part of the Navajo Nation where she lived. She managed to get on its back and grapple it down into a submission choke. She won.

Fighting is not always about strength, but how you use your weapons.
The dog and the guy. A German Shepard (wouldn't doubt if it was a bitch) has teeth and lots of them. Big ones too. It works for me, if you know what I mean.

The wolf and the woman. Evidently that woman had lots of experience with men.

Well I can't use sex-as a weapon-, and now when I was only worried about bruises, I have to watch out for those secretaries jumping on my back and choking me out. I hate the spike heeled shoes, they really hurt.

Us wimpy men are doomed.

Not all men can take on a women. Some women are be 5'.10" 160lbs or more, and could do some serious damage to lots of guys, I am speaking about Laila Ali, or her many opponets. Why is it assumed women are all tiny fragile helpless creatures that drown in a size 6 making Kate Moss look like a brute.

As I said before, it is the Victorian hang-up of what dictates a woman. A friend of mine a couple of years ago pointed that too me. He would say we are not in the Victorian age, but we still keep many of those ideas alive for women. That they are all weak, helpless creatures that only have one weapon over men and it is sex. He was really into it. So it go me thinking why isn't there talk of Penthesilea, Joan of Arch, or these women or others around the world who where warriors fighting against men and women? No one brings up Laila Ali either even though she fought women, there are lots of men she could open a can of whoopass on.

We really got to get out the Victorian age thinking when it comes to women. We got to update our thinking to modern times of women -mudwrestling guys in the bars. Whooo hooo!

Last edited by Buck : 06-11-2008 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:44 PM   #65
Gernot Hassenpflug
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
In another story maybe 10 years ago, a 105 lb. woman was attacked by a 125 lb. wolf in a remote part of the Navajo Nation where she lived. She managed to get on its back and grapple it down into a submission choke. She won.
Huh? Just correcting some spelling considering what I have experienced about Indian ladies:

a 105 lb. female wolf was attacked by a 125 lb. wolf in a remote part of the Navajo Nation where she lived.

What's a few pounds between wolves. The male was at a disadvantage I say.
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:49 PM   #66
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

One more thing, I think it really does disservice to women when we make accommodations to and for them, because we are telling them that they are the weaker sex. When that is just plain poor thinking and backwood generalization. The truth of the matter is, the biggest guy in the room usually wins. Everyone else regardless of sex is usually the losers. When it comes to toe to toe and pound for pound. Hey there are exceptions, one being the story of Samson and Delilah, it's a old favorite. It took a women to defeat the strongest man in town- not toe to toe of course, just his hormones vs her brain. What ever the exception, it is still the biggest guy pound for pound that dominates everyone else, because he is the strongest. And everyone one else male and female are equally defeated. That is why I enjoy women's mudwrestling from the bar.

Last edited by Buck : 06-11-2008 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:37 PM   #67
hapkidoike
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Phillip,
Ever notice in the newspapers when there is an article about some guy who is attacked by a dog? Such a big to-do. Come to find out it turns out to be something like a 90 lb. German shepherd, and the man is a 180, 5'11" guy. But he is outmatched by a dog half his weight?

In another story maybe 10 years ago, a 105 lb. woman was attacked by a 125 lb. wolf in a remote part of the Navajo Nation where she lived. She managed to get on its back and grapple it down into a submission choke. She won.

Fighting is not always about strength, but how you use your weapons.
I really don't see how such anecdotal evidence is relevant, especially given there is evidence of this behaviour on both sides.

http://lonestartimes.com/2007/01/31/...man-kills-dog/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...on/5038304.stm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...B166838F669FDE
(read the pdf link)

I will agree with the idea that most folks (and by folks I mean men, women and hemo's) will get their asses handed to them in a fight with a 'dog' (depending on how we define dog, I am convinced I could take at least 4 or 5 chihuahuas at once and not get much more than a scratch). Dogs can be dangerous as hell (big ass teeth, strong jaws, and sharp claws which we do not have). I am totally willing to stipulate to that idea, but there is always going to be somebody that can challenge a beast and win, due to luck, having a weapon, superior skill, using their brains or whatever.

I would also agree that fighting is not always about strength, but to suggest that it never is an issue in the determination of a victor seems a bit hokey.

If you could find the account of that woman killing that wolf I would like to read it. I searched the web for it for about 3 minutes before giving up and deciding just to ask you. Man (that is to say man/woman/hemo) stories are often a good read.
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Old 06-12-2008, 07:25 AM   #68
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

I'd be interested in a source for that as well. I've heard VERY few stories of wolves attacking adults that were actually documented. Now, coyotes attacking kids is another kettle of fish entirely (pardon the mixed metaphore...)

And once again, I don't think anyone posting in the thread is suggesting any of the things Phillip is stating...complete non-sequitor (though probably true for way too many).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 06-12-2008, 08:57 AM   #69
hapkidoike
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

Quote:
Isaac Bettis wrote: View Post
Man (that is to say man/woman/hemo) stories are often a good read.
That last sentence is supposed to read 'Man (that is to say man/woman/hemo) vs. nature stories are often a good read'.
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Old 06-12-2008, 10:12 AM   #70
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Re: Strength Comparisons between Men and Women

People vs dogs and wolves is relevant to "Strength Comparisons between Men and Women" how?
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