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Old 06-02-2008, 04:00 PM   #1
graham
 
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Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Hi folks,

I've just seen a couple of videos on youtube that were really interesting.

Is Nikkyo really an attack?

Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo


What do you think?
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:18 PM   #2
Shany
 
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

wonderful!
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Old 06-03-2008, 05:08 PM   #3
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I think the fact that uke is either placed or places (himself) to keep his feet still is what is raising the issues and their solutions here. I know that a lot of folks do Nikyo from the front like that, with Uke just standing there and going down and tapping from the pain, but I personally don't feel that pain compliance is or should be a part of any lock or pin. For me, locks should include throws, and this means that locks and pins are no more than ways of following and/or controlling descents. From this perspective, it's really quite problematic to have a guy just standing there till you do Nikyo on him (long before he performs the counter in the video). For me, any time you have a guy just standing there, he can push through your center, establish his own, etc., and counter a technique. However, if you have him already in an angle of disturbance prior to applying a pin or a lock, of if you are not where they can push, when they push or attempt to push into your center or try to establish their own, rather than countering they tend to add force to their own angle of disturbance (i.e. they fall faster, easier).

d

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Old 06-03-2008, 09:58 PM   #4
rob_liberti
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Sometimes I do ikkyo in freewaza and the uke pulls away. I usually bring that back into a natural nikkyo. Sometimes after an ikkyo, the uke pushes in to block a bit which turns into a natural sankyo.

I watched the video. It is a nice reversal. But, being able to reverse "that nikkyo" is nothing special in general. Anyone could block that after 6 months of training. If someone tried pushing into me, I can generally just accept it into my opposite hip joint, and throw them backwards 5-10 feet at will by straightening my intentions left and right and let my arms follow (like a big plus sign).

I would say in short, if uke pushes into you (or you can suker them into pushing into you) your nikkyo has a much better chance than if nage tries pushing into uke. Pushing down on uke's upper chest area is pretty much always a bad idea.

Rob
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Old 06-03-2008, 10:20 PM   #5
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I also like the Rokkyo counter to this pushing-in.

Last edited by senshincenter : 06-03-2008 at 10:22 PM.

David M. Valadez
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:20 AM   #6
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
For me, locks should include throws,
The way I see it is that throws are harder to execute properly, consistently, against a variety of different body masses.

The pins seem easier and quite effective in themselves.
Ikkyo, ninkkyo, etc. - my favorite is sankyo...

Pain compliance - if that doesnt work, follow it up or start with some heavy atemi.

For non-violence one can walk away...and the situation wont arise.
Until then the above isnt that bad.

Peace

dAlen

the only one in the 'throw category' I like is kotegaishi.
(though thats like a pin of the wrist.) Though I like shihonage as well. But that has a nice twist of the arm in it, etc.

Least favorite is iriminage, but I see its merit if you can master the various techniques of it...quite effective.

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Old 06-04-2008, 09:00 AM   #7
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Thanks for the responses, folks. I'l a newbie, so it's difficult for me to properly assess a video.

Quote:
But, being able to reverse "that nikkyo" is nothing special in general. Anyone could block that after 6 months of training.
Do you really think that? It seemed quite effective to me. After all, the guys involved all seem to have been training for more than 6 months.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:08 AM   #8
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
If someone tried pushing into me, I can generally just accept it into my opposite hip joint, and throw them backwards 5-10 feet at will by straightening my intentions left and right and let my arms follow (like a big plus sign).
Rob, I'm having a little trouble visualizing "the straightening my intentions" you mention. Could you help me out?

best,

RAUL
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:47 AM   #9
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
The way I see it is that throws are harder to execute properly, consistently, against a variety of different body masses.
dAlen
I would say that locks are more subtle when it comes to getting one's energy to enter the center of uke - which is what is necessary for throws. Things like momentum/inertia, etc., allow for a lot more leeway in getting someone's balance. Either way, for me, one should have throws in one's locks and locks in one's throws. Here's a simple throw located in the middle of a nikkyo variation - it's near the end of the video:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/nikyov.mov

Here's a simply throw located at the beginning of a nikyo variation:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/aihanmi1.mov

Last edited by senshincenter : 06-04-2008 at 09:52 AM.

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Old 06-04-2008, 09:53 AM   #10
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Graham Old wrote: View Post
Do you really think that? It seemed quite effective to me. After all, the guys involved all seem to have been training for more than 6 months.
Yes, I really think that. I explained in a lot of detail what was wrong with it. Pushing in to uke is pretty much always a bad idea. If you are going to push down, you want that to only effect them from obi down, never from obi up.

Raul, I mean I can send my mental focus out both left and right (looking like samson pushing the pillars apart) making my body a "cross". I agree I could have explained that a lot more clearly. Sorry.

Rob
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:16 AM   #11
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

There is a school of thought that pinning or throwing should ideally only be attempted when uke is off balance; these videos seem to support that idea.

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Old 06-04-2008, 11:34 AM   #12
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Raul, I mean I can send my mental focus out both left and right (looking like samson pushing the pillars apart) making my body a "cross". I agree I could have explained that a lot more clearly. Sorry.

Rob
Does this nikyo reversal have anything to do with the "cross," the upper dantien that people like Mike Sigman talk about?

Raul
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:43 AM   #13
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

In the first video, the nikkyo is reversed because the nage had their elbow up.

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Old 06-04-2008, 11:45 AM   #14
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Nick I subscribe to that school of thought. Watching those videos, all I could think was "that would be as effective as tickling a cow".

As far as what Mike Signman talks about, I haven't read much from him on the upper cross in a few years but I can say this. I would guess that it is mostly the same thing. I have never disagreed/argued with him on mechanics or his explanations. (We argued over many other issues, but that is beside the point.)

I would assume that he is much farther along in terms of using his back muscles and all of his fascia connections and intentions than I am. In the past, I think he tended to under-estimate what was available in the aikido world. I think we have come to some sort of agreement that there is some good internal training in aikido but it tends to be a slower approach than it could potentially be.

As far as nikkyo. From just an aikido perspective,before I started training with Dan Harden, I could have blocked that nikkyo while jugling 2 balls with the other hand. Since I've been training with Dan Harden, I've learned how to absorb it better and how to use more of my body to blow through them with soft power. And I continue to lear a lot of the slower approach in a much faster way!

Rob
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:49 AM   #15
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Rob is completely correct, and all this has nothing to do with anything subtle whatsoever.

Although seemingly impressive at times, the only reason this person's technique works is simply because of how he trains his uke. This is devoid of any martial understanding and responsibility, let alone anything deeper. If you have the eye for it, you'll see that, in spite of what he says, there is no understanding of position, -real- kuzushi, or core connection or movement. The words/concepts are there, but not the real knowledge or actual skill. I know this from first-hand experience.

Larry Novick
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:00 PM   #16
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I'm in complete agreement with Larry et al on this one. There are way too many openings in the technique to begin with.

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
Pain compliance - if that doesnt work, follow it up or start with some heavy atemi.
Apart from a few obvious problems in the execution... One pet peeve of mine...

There is a difference between simple pain compliance and injuring someone. And you need to understand that difference. Pain compliance can work with a less than motivated, inexperienced or not really that angry attacker. But when the adrenaline is flowing pain compliance sometimes goes out the window. FWIW I ran to help a victim of a horrific car accident years ago. I got out of my car, ran over to him, and put my shirt on a really bad head injury the guy had until the paramedics got there. Once they got him stabilized another paramedic came over and said "we'd better take care of you now". I was confused. I told him I wasn't involved in the accident. He then sat me down and lifted up my feet. Oops. I wasn't wearing shoes and I had run across both broken glass and some sharp metal. My feet were just ripped up and there was a chunk of a beer bottle sticking out of the side of my left foot. At that moment it suddenly started to hurt. It hadn't hurt before. Or I didn't notice it. Or whatever. But at that point it was a sudden rush of pain.

So that said remember that pain doesn't motivate everyone. But there is a huge difference between "ow, that hurts" and "snap -- you just dislocated my shoulder!". When you're twisting a wrist/arm in a nikyo if you continue hard and power through you can damage to the joint itself. Many pins are just a hair away from a dislocation if they are continued. The continuation of many of these joint manipulation/stressing movements goes from pain to injury very quickly.

When we train cooperatively we tend to stop after the start of pain but before the start of injury. That's a good thing in that we want to be able to train some more. We'd run out of training partners really quickly if we didn't stop. But you need to realize that if you're using some of these things "for real" you may need to continue. They may resist. Or the pain may not register. They may push back, damn the torpedoes and all that. It would be nice if people would just give up automatically, but if they don't, are you willing to continue and tear apart their wrist? Or in a pin with them face down and you have their arm behind their back are you going to be willing to dislocate their shoulder if they try to fight out of it?

I've tried some of those things in the video over the years. But my view of it is trying to understand how you're going to deal with that situation. There are no shortage of brutal solutions to someone trying to reverse those techniques, but many in Aikido are conditioned not to go that way. But with anyone else, well, it is flat out stupid to try something like that. If you're going to resist the nikkyo and I've also gotten into that position without managing to have an advantage in balance and positioning (all issues in this case) my choices are 1) let you reverse it, 2) change technique, 3) put on more pressure to hopefully motivate you not to do that, or 4) put on more pressure then finish it and bust up your wrist if you're too stupid to realize just how vulnerable you are.

That said I can think of a few people I train with where a reversal like that might work with them. They're much too nice and some have bad habits in their applications. There are others, however, where trying something like that is just not a good idea. I don't need to spend a month with a swollen wrist in therapy...

One great thing about aikido is that we can train in a "live" way. People try to hit, try to grab, try to move you around. We have a set of means of dealing with protecting ourselves. The drawback of that is that we tend to stop short of certain things (for good reason). I don't routinely try to break wrists. I don't dislocate shoulders. So while someone may find that they can reverse a technique, you need to ask yourself if that reversal is possibly only because they aren't willing to just rip apart your wrist. Or dislocate your shoulder. I had a wrestler friend who could wiggle out of a pin I had him in. He was really proud of himself. But the reality was that I wasn't willing to dislocate his shoulder to keep him from wiggling out. Yes, it starts as pain compliance -- the pain at first is the signpost that the joint is close to sustaining a considerable injury. No, I couldn't hold him down with leverage alone. But one small twist and shift and I would have ripped his arm out of the socket. He's my friend -- I'm not going to discloate his shoulder. But a bad guy who has just attacked me and my family? If he tries to get out of that pin, well, I'm going to make sure he doesn't get out. Or if he does he's not going to be able to use that arm again... Ever.

So ultimately, how useful is a reversal move like that? It'll only work among cooperative people who are trying very hard not to hurt each other. But if one really does want to hurt the other... Different story entirely.

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Old 06-04-2008, 12:12 PM   #17
raul rodrigo
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Rob:

I've been able to counter some bad nikyos over the years, but usually with sankyo or nikyo itself. I've not seen or heard of a nikyo counter that can throw someone back ten feet. I can understand, I think, how to transfer uke's power to the opposite hip, but I'm drawing a blank after that. Please tell me more. Is this something William Gleason does?

RAUL
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Old 06-04-2008, 12:42 PM   #18
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
Rob:

I've been able to counter some bad nikyos over the years, but usually with sankyo or nikyo itself. I've not seen or heard of a nikyo counter that can throw someone back ten feet. I can understand, I think, how to transfer uke's power to the opposite hip, but I'm drawing a blank after that. Please tell me more. Is this something William Gleason does?

RAUL
I played around just a bit with something like that. Probably isn't the same as what Rob is doing, though. I had my uke put me in a nikkyo. As he applied more force to the nikkyo, I used my suit to let that force go through the wrist, through the arm, through the shoulder, down across the back, into the opposite leg and then into the ground. Well, I got as far as the back but I couldn't get the force to go through the leg into the ground. (As I've been told before, my lower back is a mess. Still working on it.)

What I found while doing this was that the energy coming in was sort of spiraling through my body and getting stored. As more force was applied, more energy came through. So, in a "I wonder" moment, I released all the energy back into uke and it popped him back a couple steps. Was really neat.

Mark
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:04 PM   #19
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

"This guy have been training for 18 years, he knows how to put nikkyo on......." So nikkyo is about; uke still in perfect balance, nage keeping his elbow up high, raising his shoulders and pushing?
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Old 06-04-2008, 02:48 PM   #20
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I would say that locks are more subtle when it comes to getting one's energy to enter the center of uke - which is what is necessary for throws. Things like momentum/inertia, etc., allow for a lot more leeway in getting someone's balance. Either way, for me, one should have throws in one's locks and locks in one's throws. Here's a simple throw located in the middle of a nikkyo variation - it's near the end of the video:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/nikyov.mov

Here's a simply throw located at the beginning of a nikyo variation:

http://www.senshincenter.com/media/aihanmi1.mov
Actually I feel that is a fair assessment.
Your right, when I do shiho nage, part of the move is to lock the arm and twist it before doing the throw move.

Good point your brought up...

Peace

dAlen

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Old 06-04-2008, 05:20 PM   #21
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

I think I share Nafis's view. At least I would like to see how the reversal works if nage has his elbow down.
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:48 PM   #22
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Also, if you want to meet up. I'll be happy to show you my nikkyo and demonstrate it with my elbow in just about any position you like. As long as you want to apply pressue to me, nothing else is going to matter much unless your aiki (anti aiki) skills are better than mine AND you get there first. I still think I may be able to soft power you down.

I've given this a bit more thought and I'd say that as long as one has superior intention ability your nikkyo should work. That typically means the person with the better structure. And that is why we say things like it's best to do kokyunage first, get uke's mind on their balance and off of resisting technique for a split second (of uke's focus betrayal - my term I just made up!) before applying the technique. As structure and intention improves relative to uke, you can get away with less kokyu nage and move into what I would consider kokyu rokyu.

Larry sorry for your difficulties. I had to let one go myself. (And if he comes back it won't mean he loves me! It will mean I must have had a lobotomy.)

Rob
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Old 06-05-2008, 12:03 AM   #23
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I played around just a bit with something like that. Probably isn't the same as what Rob is doing, though. I had my uke put me in a nikkyo. As he applied more force to the nikkyo, I used my suit to let that force go through the wrist, through the arm, through the shoulder, down across the back, into the opposite leg and then into the ground. Well, I got as far as the back but I couldn't get the force to go through the leg into the ground. (As I've been told before, my lower back is a mess. Still working on it.)

What I found while doing this was that the energy coming in was sort of spiraling through my body and getting stored. As more force was applied, more energy came through. So, in a "I wonder" moment, I released all the energy back into uke and it popped him back a couple steps. Was really neat.

Mark
Excellent. I missed this post first time around! This is pretty much what I was talking about. Here are my thoughts on a comparison:
- I don't worry about bringing it/recieving it further than my hip joint becuase I assume that my spine intentions will handle that as long as I recieve it to my hip.
- I felt it store up just like you are saying.
- I decided to hit the cross pose and followed that intention with my arms and whammo. How far they go back depends only on how good their stance was. If they have no structure at all, I may get 30 feet out of them although that would be assisted by them (sometimes you can get someone running backwards - tiedering on the edge of balance - trying to get their legs back under their upper body which is flying away).

Before I learned such things, I would say I have been hit my so much power from Gleason sensei - who does not use pain at all that I am aware of - that something like this would have just powered my stance. (At the time my stance would have been dumping too much of my energy in my front - which ISN'T the way Gleason sensei stands - I learned that bad habbit from others.)

As far as Gleason sensei goes, it has been my experience that nothing I'm doing with Dan Harden so far is too different from what he does in his aikido. The difference is that Dan applies such things to MMA, teaches that power so differently and directly, and the more I learn it the better I can see what Gleason sensei is doing. Both of those teachers do kata dori nikkyo in the exact same way for instance. Gleason sensei's iriminage is using the exact same thing as what Dan just showed me in a completely different context. It's so fun.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 06-05-2008 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 06-05-2008, 04:14 AM   #24
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

The points to the video clips that I put up on youtube were this:

The first one "Easy ikkyo, painless nikyo" was a simple demonstration of how the nature of ukemi forms aiki, something that should be pretty obvious but is overlooked by people who think they have to muscle through either movement. Ikkyo is a natural technique when uke is extending his musculature during a grab or strike, but if the musculature is is compressing then ikkyo will not manifest without force. Clearly a person stronger than his partner or in a better position to use leverage and/or who does not care whether they injure their partner can force ikkyo, but force is in opposition to harmony by definition.

The same holds true for nikyo, but in this case nikyo is in harmony with the compression of musculature. If uke is extending and elongating his musculature, nikyo will only manifest if nage makes room for the extension and lowers the point of connection without conflicting with that outward stretch (not shown in the clip).

One can feel free to disagree with the idea that aikido is about harmony and not force. This clip is not for them.

The next clip "Is nikyo an attack?" is not meant to demonstrate martial technique, as what aikidoka is really going to be doing something that would result in nikyo being applied in a martial situation? Which aikido technique when done properly results in a nikyo being applied to nage?

The point to the clip was to demonstrate that in the application of nikyo in a traditional way when one focuses one's ki into the necessarily constricted flow, including the use of the hand that traps the fingers of the affected wrist, the intention turns the person applying the nikyo into uke which is why a reverse is possible. There has been no argument that a reverse is never possible, has there? This is meant only to demonstrate why nikyo is reversible. We do however believe that because of the nature of traditionally applied nikyo it is always reversible by the extension of ki in harmony with the application.

The speculation as to the effectiveness or the nikyo being applied in the video or the lack thereof is pointless. Some people said the "raised elbows" meant non-effective application, while Rob L. said he could effectively apply nikyo with his elbow in any position. For the demonstration we all showed our ability to affect our partner's center prior to changing our responses, but if anyone thinks we were were fooling ourselves or each other, you'll have to remain in doubt. We all left the dojo that night with the sore wrists to prove it, at least to ourselves, but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Either you will understand what we were getting at or you won't. Many people do, many people don't. We tried it in a different dojo with aikidoka who are not necessarily of the same mindset as us and got similar results, but again, you would have to take our word on it. Other people have written me from all over the world saying it worked for them, but I can't verify if they are fooling themselves or really did what we did. Others have written saying we're insane, and maybe we are, but we know what we experienced.

Granted it is not easy to overcome the limbic system response to pain, but when one can do it, if the flow of ki from center follows the field of energy produced by uke's application, aiki mainifests effortlesslessly. Again, no one is suggesting this as a way to, after stupidly putting oneself in a position to be on the receiving end of nikyo in a real life situation, "push" through a joint lock. It is a demonstration of how that wrist lock actually creates ukemi, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 06-05-2008, 07:06 AM   #25
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Re: Easy ikkyo, painless nikkyo, attacking nikkyo?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Excellent. I missed this post first time around! This is pretty much what I was talking about.
Good to know. We'll have to compare next time we're on the same mat.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Here are my thoughts on a comparison:
- I don't worry about bringing it/recieving it further than my hip joint becuase I assume that my spine intentions will handle that as long as I recieve it to my hip.
- I felt it store up just like you are saying.
- I decided to hit the cross pose and followed that intention with my arms and whammo. How far they go back depends only on how good their stance was. If they have no structure at all, I may get 30 feet out of them although that would be assisted by them (sometimes you can get someone running backwards - tiedering on the edge of balance - trying to get their legs back under their upper body which is flying away).
Hmmm ... will have to work on this some more.

I work mainly with two people who are also working on this internal stuff with me. So, if I get a step or two out of them, I'm happy. I haven't had a chance to try it on someone "normal". Besides, the two I work with outweigh me by 60-80 pounds. Erk.

Mark
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