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Old 05-25-2008, 03:39 PM   #151
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Dan, I cannot comment on "Spetznats" (sic) as my only experiences have been working with a few Georgian officers trained by the Russians and we never got into this level of discussion as it was not relevant to what we were doing.

Quote:
I have debated this with you in the past, that internal training and relaxation improves power, responsiveness, and.....speed in all form of combative movement and workload. No sense arguing about it again, so I'll leave it alone. Seems we have never agreed on this topic and never will. You're not able to see it yet.
You are making some incorrect assumptions about what I believe on a personal level.

In training you have to establish priorities and focus on endstates. What you ultimately focus on is that which may not be theorectically the best way, or the "university solution", but that which gets you to your goal.

Quote:
I tend to consider your understanding and opinions as emblematic of your current aikido teachers and that DR guy you invite down to teach. Neither of whom, I think, are equipped to show you anything or help your understanding of what I have been trying to explain to you for years now, so I am going to let it drop.
So noted, thanks.

Quote:
If you continue to pursue training with some men who understand internals and "real" aiki- and walk away from that other stuff for a while, you just might get to a point where you see some vastly different potential in human movement. Until that happens, good luck in your training
Well I have been fortunate through the years to train with alot of people "martially" both within the military and outside. I have constantly been suprised and after 24 years of "martial" training, I learn something new everyday.

Who do you consider to be worthy? Mike Sigman, Rob John, others?

Quote:
I try to be very circumspect in offering opinions on military or LEO. Those are best left to those doing them. That said those teaching in those venues have been and are constantly learning themselves and have a history of making errors and or changing their views over time
Sounds good to me, I agree.

Last edited by Kevin Leavitt : 05-25-2008 at 03:42 PM. Reason: additional comments.

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Old 05-25-2008, 04:12 PM   #152
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Teaching soldiers to "relax" can be a tricky thing to get into. I'd be hesitant to go the aikido route as it could cause some issues for them and get them killed if they don't understand it. I'd rather have a tense soldier that fights than one that is relaxed and does not move forward into battle.
You probably explained this in a prior discussion, but I was curious about what it is you think might be confusing or otherwise detrimental to a soldier. Referring to your remarks about institutional and personal aims, I can understand how a lot of the Aikido componants might not fit very well: some reishiki could potentially waste time and I understand how trying to not harm an attacker could get you killed in a firefight, but it seems to me the physical qualities of Aikido (aikijutsu, essentially), as well as many of the concepts would be pretty useful.
Relaxation in particular seems invaluable. I'm not a soldier so I don't want to sound presumptuous; please forgive me if I do, I know these are just an outsider's take. When I think of a tense soldier I think of a fear-based, rigid mindset. When i think of a relaxed soldier I think of a fearless, flexible mindset. Obviously these are merely my own perceptions, but I'm curious about how you would characterize the two.
Take care,
Matthew

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Old 05-25-2008, 04:59 PM   #153
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

All this talk of what Spetsnatz is trained to do by folks with little if any experiance with them or any form of Special Operations training is silly...

Relaxation and breathing to perform at a higher level of 'Martial" functioning under duress is not a new paradigm and dates back thousands of years...

So I guess in a certain sense those who say Aikido does not work under duress if one is tense and not breathing correctly are absolutely correct....

However a part of most all Martial Systems is need to learn how to focus and relax while under duress... Aikido is no different.

Hence "fighting" yourself does not work at all in Aikido...You MUST learn to breath,focus,and relax...and in point of fact should be the main goal of practice....

What to get there quick? Rolling and Breakfalls...Lots of them in the beginning of class.... Tucker all those testoterone hyped up newbies out....THEN they will begin to learn...LOL

William Hazen
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Old 05-25-2008, 06:35 PM   #154
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
You probably explained this in a prior discussion, but I was curious about what it is you think might be confusing or otherwise detrimental to a soldier. ... Relaxation in particular seems invaluable. I'm not a soldier so I don't want to sound presumptuous; please forgive me if I do, I know these are just an outsider's take. When I think of a tense soldier I think of a fear-based, rigid mindset. When i think of a relaxed soldier I think of a fearless, flexible mindset.
Kevin is Army. I was Navy, an aviator, and had Marine training. I will speak from my experience and it may not differ that much from Kevin's. There is a vast universe of difference between relaxation in the face of threat arrived at THROUGH the initial tension and, frankly, abject terror, and that arrived at through exhortation to simply "relax" in the face of threat.

Flying close aboard to land on a pitching frigate deck with the superstructure making 15 foot excursions on a flight deck where you have about ten foot clearance on a fifty-eight foot rotor arc -- well, if you're not relaxed doing it you are swiftly dead, but if you began training without the godawful heeby-jeebies and your body tight as a string on a two dollar guitar you will not get through to the regime that you need to have to operate successfully.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:17 PM   #155
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
All this talk of what Spetsnatz is trained to do by folks with little if any experiance with them or any form of Special Operations training is silly...
William Hazen
Well I don't know how a single question (asked twice, then answered) equals "all this talk about..."
I referenced what I have read and what I have been told personally by guys recently out of spec ops, along with some guys who train with Vlad and Michael, I asked Kevin how he thinks his model would compare to their training model involving extensive relaxation in motion. Oh well.

The rest, William, was addressing an idea often expressed by Kevin over the years that somehow relaxation in internal training, was static, stagnant and could not by used in grappling/Judo/ BJJ or any live environment. It's all here in many, many threads and posts. When I saw the same thought come to light again in this thread regarding relaxation and a failure to be able to move well, it piqued my interest. I can understand a lack in understanding of real power and speed in relaxation and structure from the people he regularly trains with, but I thought he would see something more from his new pursuits. Especially since he has trained with Ark and Mike.. I guess not.
Time and different levels of experience on both sides have formed opinions. It's just an old debate not worth pursuing any longer. I'd just as soon thank Kevin for his service and be done with it.
I'm out.

Last edited by DH : 05-25-2008 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:51 PM   #156
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

If you talk to SOF guys, you will get as many opinions as there are SOF guys. The subset that are into what you are doing are obviously going to say that it is important as it is important to them. Others might not put quite the same emphasis on it.

Guys, we are kinda hijacking this thread, so If you wan to discuss it, we might want to take this else where.

Dan, since meeting up with Mike Sigman, I have been trying to incorporate what he tried to convey to us, I think it is more a limitation of my own and maybe not of the concepts. My premise still stands though when you consider the amount of time you have to devote to training and what you will spend time doing.

FWIW, I am going to spend next weekend with Rob John and Aukzawa, so at least my actions should tell you a little about how a value it personally.

Anyway, I don't mean to ignore anyone, but I'd rather discuss this in another thread so I am going to end my responses here since this is not the intent of this thread.

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Old 05-26-2008, 01:59 AM   #157
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Kevin is Army. I was Navy, an aviator, and had Marine training. I will speak from my experience and it may not differ that much from Kevin's. There is a vast universe of difference between relaxation in the face of threat arrived at THROUGH the initial tension and, frankly, abject terror, and that arrived at through exhortation to simply "relax" in the face of threat.

Flying close aboard to land on a pitching frigate deck with the superstructure making 15 foot excursions on a flight deck where you have about ten foot clearance on a fifty-eight foot rotor arc -- well, if you're not relaxed doing it you are swiftly dead, but if you began training without the godawful heeby-jeebies and your body tight as a string on a two dollar guitar you will not get through to the regime that you need to have to operate successfully.
Nice post Kevin...My entire Army Active/Reserve Career was in SOF and were it not for a very bad PLF I might have retired. LOL... and having been through a few hard "training" landings It's good to know the relaxation through focused training pradigm is universal...

Which maybe the reason I am still here.
I'd like to think based on my experiance that learning the OODA Loop has allot to do with getting through the inital heebie jeebies of any Martial Training and into the focused relaxation stage...

To summerize you can't really express Aikido techniques fully unless you learn how to act out of your center in a state of "relaxation."

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-26-2008 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 05-26-2008, 02:16 AM   #158
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well I don't know how a single question (asked twice, then answered) equals "all this talk about..."
I referenced what I have read and what I have been told personally by guys recently out of spec ops, along with some guys who train with Vlad and Michael, I asked Kevin how he thinks his model would compare to their training model involving extensive relaxation in motion. Oh well.

The rest, William, was addressing an idea often expressed by Kevin over the years that somehow relaxation in internal training, was static, stagnant and could not by used in grappling/Judo/ BJJ or any live environment. It's all here in many, many threads and posts. When I saw the same thought come to light again in this thread regarding relaxation and a failure to be able to move well, it piqued my interest. I can understand a lack in understanding of real power and speed in relaxation and structure from the people he regularly trains with, but I thought he would see something more from his new pursuits. Especially since he has trained with Ark and Mike.. I guess not.
Time and different levels of experience on both sides have formed opinions. It's just an old debate not worth pursuing any longer. I'd just as soon thank Kevin for his service and be done with it.
I'm out.
I get you Dan...and I did not mean to hurt your feelings.

My Apologies.

William Hazen
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Old 05-26-2008, 04:06 AM   #159
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
My problem is not that some people choose to not train for effectiveness, but that those same people are usually the most vocal about how their stuff is the best for self defense.
This is my biggest point of contention with bitches about aikido.

98% of the people saying OH aikido is Teh deadly AREN'T people who practice aikido, but other martial artists trying to ridicule aikido.

Few and far between are the people who I've seen who promote un realistic training yet claim it to be the best self defense ever.

No the people who mention aikido and best "self defense ever" are people trying to make fun of it or giving bullshit examples of "some guy" who they met at the gym who claimed you can stop time with aikido.
Maybe whitebelts with a couple of hours of matt time who have read too many space books. Either way people are basing their opinions on stupid comments made by people talking out of their ass.

If you're hungry, keep moving.
If you're tired, keep moving.
If you value you're life, keep moving.

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Old 05-26-2008, 04:42 AM   #160
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

effectiveness is a wide topic! what is it? I'd tend to agree with Mary on this one, is aikido about more than fighting? How do you transcend it?

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Old 05-26-2008, 06:29 AM   #161
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A dojo thing

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I'd tend to agree with Mary on this one, is aikido about more than fighting? How do you transcend it?
I agree, as well, on those important qustions.
To me, aikido is primarily something for the dojo. The aikido that works in the dojo is the aikido that works.
And it has its multiple rewards: peace of mind, some healthy exercising, artistic inspiration, training on finding the win-win situation, and on, and on. All of it is applicable to life outside the dojo. Of course, self-defense, too. But that's just a tiny part of it.
If I allow myself to focus too much on self-defense aspects, I risk losing most of the other benefits. And practice gets kind of boring.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-27-2008, 07:07 AM   #162
philippe willaume
 
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Re: A dojo thing

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Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I agree, as well, on those important qustions.
To me, aikido is primarily something for the dojo. The aikido that works in the dojo is the aikido that works.
And it has its multiple rewards: peace of mind, some healthy exercising, artistic inspiration, training on finding the win-win situation, and on, and on. All of it is applicable to life outside the dojo. Of course, self-defense, too. But that's just a tiny part of it.
If I allow myself to focus too much on self-defense aspects, I risk losing most of the other benefits. And practice gets kind of boring.
Kev& steph is that not more a matter of from over function?

I mean I have practice a few martial arts when I was young fit and beautiful, and apart the few perineums here and there. The practice usually makes us "better" man and usually martial arts exponent tend to be less prone to usage of violence, regardless of the arts. (The exception being the few perineums mentions earlier).

For me to reap the benefits of a martial arts and aikido is a martial arts, you do need to practice it as a martial arts. You can not say you have transcended piano playing just by using the black notes, having disregarded the white ones because it distract you from using the black.
That goes as well for fluffy bunny aikido. For all the softer style of aikido I have seem there is always something of martial significance in them. (Where its is acknowledged by them or other is a totally different story). In fact most of the time I find it useful because that softness usually come from with the exposition of every component of the technique, which can only improve the martial aspect of the said technique

Sure there is a component of self defence in aikido as any martial arts is based a bout defeating one or several opponents whilst not being critically wounded or disabled.
But that itself is only one part of self defence.

There is as much beauty and inspiration is a technique delivered when you are winning from start to begin. (ie you partner/opponent is totally at your mercy) as there is in one

If by win-win you mean that tori and nague get benefits from a given technique, but this is the point of training.
The point of a martial art is that we win and the opposition loose.

The beauty of aikido is that the win can take the from we like from not being there to as much as damage as we possibly can pass by a pin.

The point I am trying to make is that Mary example could be explained using horse riding in the role of aikido. This is precisely the way to deal with strong willed mare. (that, carrots and sugar, a walking the said mare in head collar). You can not afford to let he get to you and your will need to prevail.

Horse riding, aikido, other martial arts, can be used in everyday life and by such transcended, however for that to happen the purpose of horse riding does not need to be any thing else than riding a horse.
phil

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Old 05-27-2008, 08:51 AM   #163
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

I am currently finishing the next column for my Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation series and I had occasion to translate a substantial section of Hideo Takahashi's Takemusu Aiki. Up to now, the only available parts in English have been the few sections that have appeared in Stanley Pranin's AJ magazine & columns, which formed the basis of Ellis Amdur's Three Peaches and Hidden in Plain Sight essays.

One of the issues for my next TIE column is Ueshiba's contribution to the military prowess of the Japanese Imperial army & navy and there is good evidence that this was very impressive. The section of Takahashi's book that I have focused upon appears in Part 4 of Stan's summaries of Kisshomaru Ueshiba's biography.

The section deals with a mystical experience that O Sensei had in December 1940, two years before he escaped to Iwama, and at a time when he was playing a huge role in the activities of Japan's military government. Much has been made of the Golden Body episode that occurred much earlier, but the 1940 mystical experience is rarely mentioned. In this account, Ueshiba contrasts his knowledge previous to 1940 with the requirements enjoined by the vision. The account of the vision was couched in Oomoto terms and involved his own possession by the guardian deities of aikido. At one point Ueshiba states that he became (= was possessed by) Izanagi-no-mikoto, who played a pivotal role (literally) in creating the world (= Japan). (This was the era of ubuya = birth huts etc). But he had a truly awesome training regime.

The angst caused by his doubts about the authenticity of the vision supposedly caused an illness that lasted one year. I suspect that part of the angst was caused by the need to square the vision he experienced in 1940 with his pivotal role in the Japanese military before and afterwards. Note that the Budo manual was produced in 1938 and consisted of simple effective techniques that Ueshiba considered would have been effective for Japanese soldiers to kill the enemy in the field of battle.

As a result of the vision, Ueshiba explains his method of ascetic training to his audience in the Byakou Shinkoukai and mentions in passing just how wrong the Japanese army was, in its general interpretation of keiko. He resorts to mysterious kanji but basically argues that the military methods focused only on the body and not on the spirit, as he himself conceived this. If they had focused on the spirit, they would have realized that aikido was truly a divine work, dedicated to unifying the entire universe.

The relevant discourse in Hideo Takahashi's book is clearly a reflection made after the events. Ueshiba mentions the effects of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings and he obviously could not have made these remarks in 1940. However, the section is a sustained meditation on the essential divine aspects of training, as he saw it, and how the Japanese military largely missed all these aspects. The message appears to be that killing people does not figure at all in aikido, even for the military (though this is not explicitly stated).

Ueshiba came to this realization when he was closely involved with the Japanese military and as a result of sustained reflection on his training before 1940. He does not state whether there is an essential connection between the realization and his own military experience. Actually, since he believed he was an avatar, I suspect not.

Given the content of this thread, I thought that I should point out that Morihei Ueshiba's own thinking about the issue is by no means as clear as the title of the thread would lead us to believe.

Best wishes to all,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 05-27-2008 at 09:06 AM.

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Old 05-27-2008, 11:05 AM   #164
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post

Given the content of this thread, I thought that I should point out that Morihei Ueshiba's own thinking about the issue is by no means as clear as the title of the thread would lead us to believe.

Best wishes to all,
I wonder how many Aikido folks are either incapable or uninterested in actually doing Ueshiba's Aikido. I wonder, of those, how many are uninterested BECAUSE they're unable? In other words of those who wanted to, but couldn't figure it out-how many decided to "opt out" of the martial veracity (that leads to actual controlling of an attacker) all together due to their own personal failings.
I wonder how many, if they were handed the true power of aiki and all the power and skills it conveys, would be so willing to put it down, and go back to what they were doing?
My guess is...not a single one of them would do that.

How much argument is through true lack of understanding, and how much is just passive/aggressive posturing due to a lack of real skill?
It's rhetorical of course, but I think we would find many folks in those categories.

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2008 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:30 PM   #165
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wonder how many Aikido folks are either incapable or uninterested in actually doing Ueshiba's Aikido. I wonder, of those, how many are uninterested BECAUSE they're unable? In other words of those who wanted to, but couldn't figure it out-how many decided to "opt out" of the martial veracity (that leads to actual controlling of an attacker) all together due to their own personal failings.
I wonder how many, if they were handed the true power of aiki and all the power and skills it conveys, would be so willing to put it down, and go back to what they were doing?
My guess is...not a single one of them would do that.

How much argument is through true lack of understanding, and how much is just passive/aggressive posturing due to a lack of real skill?
It's rhetorical of course, but I think we would find many folks in those categories.
I wonder if you've read what traits constitute passive aggressive behavior? A few of them, according to Dr. Wetzler, include:

* Ambiguity
* Blaming others
* Complaining
* Does not express hostility or anger openly - (e.g., expresses it instead by leaving notes)
* Fear of authority
* Fear of dependency
* Fosters chaos
* Resentment
* Resists suggestions from others
* Sarcasm
* Stubbornness
* Sullenness
* Willful withholding of understanding

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:41 PM   #166
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wonder how many Aikido folks are either incapable or uninterested in actually doing Ueshiba's Aikido. I wonder, of those, how many are uninterested BECAUSE they're unable? In other words of those who wanted to, but couldn't figure it out-how many decided to "opt out" of the martial veracity (that leads to actual controlling of an attacker) all together due to their own personal failings.
I wonder how many, if they were handed the true power of aiki and all the power and skills it conveys, would be so willing to put it down, and go back to what they were doing?
My guess is...not a single one of them would do that.

How much argument is through true lack of understanding, and how much is just passive/aggressive posturing due to a lack of real skill?
It's rhetorical of course, but I think we would find many folks in those categories.
The Pot calling the kettle black? Really Dan I don't doubt your skills but talk about passive agressive posturing? LOL

What good is the true power of Aiki if all one does is beat oneself on the chest because they are "right" and most everyone else is "wrong"

Most Aikidoka are concerned with cultivating the "True Spirit of Aikido" Most have different interpretations on what Ushiba meant by that.

Can one have Aiki Spirit without Aiki Power? Yup

Will Having an Aiki Spirit make the Aikidoka a better human being? Yup

Can one cultivate an Aiki Spirit without developing Aiki Power? Yup

So One has Nuclear Weapons...The other sticks and rocks...What keeps one from using Nuclear Weapons to harm those without?

Technique?

Breathing?

Solo Practice?

Knowing that most "understand nothing?"

I humbly submit that unless one cultivates thier spirit in any Martial Arts practice (Which by the way is the goal of most ALL Asian Martial Arts) that they will become forever lost in the power of thier technique and will never see the meaning behind why they practice and what they do....

We BTDT's have a name for that....Blackbelt Disease

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 05-27-2008 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 12:54 PM   #167
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am currently finishing the next column for my Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation series and I had occasion to translate a substantial section of Hideo Takahashi's Takemusu Aiki. ... Ueshiba's contribution to the military prowess of the Japanese Imperial army & navy and there is good evidence that this was very impressive. ... a mystical experience that O Sensei had in December 1940, two years before he escaped to Iwama, and at a time when he was playing a huge role in the activities of Japan's military government.

The angst caused by his doubts about the authenticity of the vision supposedly caused an illness that lasted one year. I suspect that part of the angst was caused by the need to square the vision he experienced in 1940 with his pivotal role in the Japanese military before and afterwards. Note that the Budo manual was produced in 1938 and consisted of simple effective techniques that Ueshiba considered would have been effective for Japanese soldiers to kill the enemy in the field of battle.
Ob. Prof. Goldsbury's point -- There are two competing memes at this time on the Pre-War Post-War dichotomy -- O Sensei as a political naif, whose experience with the more calculating and politically aggressive nationalist factions reached an an irreconcilable collision before the War was widened to include the United States.

The other meme is that O Sensei was a committed nationalist and pragmatist who changed his stripes after the war when the winds began blowing the other way.

I find it interesting that his political disaffections track the former more than the latter. In July 1940, Adm. Yonai (by some accounts, the Emperor's choice) lost the premiership and the pro-Axis faction began gaining the upper hand throughout Konoe's government, suppressing the peace faction, progressively eliminating the pro-U.S. politicians like Yonai, and, despite Konoe's personal diplomacy, following the stunning personal intervention by suggestion of the Emperor himself to make a last effort to avoid war (reacting perhaps to the loss of his choice of premier in Yonai), culminated in the October deadline passing without agreement and the Pearl Harbor expedition and War with the U.S. following.

I also find it interesting that the two claims of religious revelations are joined by a long period fo claimed illness in the year bridging the 1940 and the 1942 visions. A claim of illness and of newly enlightened religious fervor are both acceptable postures by which to resolve a serious honne/tatemae conflict, and the coincidence of both here, bookended, is simply not credibly portrayed as anything else in context.

At the same time the Kobukan dojo which had operated fine without official recognition for ten years was formally incorporated under the regulatory authority of the Health ministry in April 1940, which turns out to have been a preparatory action to its amalgamation of all the martial arts into the increasingly fascistic and state-run Butokukai in 1941. These represented a progressive loss of personal control over the art, and the departure of some of his key students into military service made it difficult to avoid. The retreat to Iwama at the behest of his third vision in 1942 is consistent with this increased disaffection with the direction others were going with budo in general; and with his budo in particular.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 05-27-2008, 02:26 PM   #168
DH
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
The Pot calling the kettle black? Really Dan I don't doubt your skills but talk about passive aggressive posturing? LOL. What good is the true power of Aiki if all one does is beat oneself on the chest because they are "right" and most everyone else is "wrong"
William
There was no passive/aggressive intent on my end. I am at work. Let me wrap my head around what I am trying to say and see if I can make it more clear later. It’s really not a value judgment as it is all correct. No one is wrong. At least in the sense that they have picked and chose what they wanted to do. I was talking about what would happen if the more passive group was given real aiki, and how it would or could change them and their expression of the art.
It isn't a question of you or I. It's a question of what Uehsiba was doing, which as Peter pointed out was by no means as simplistic as "Fight does not work in aikido" would suggest.
You read a host of people trying to make their aikido more martially effective and sound. Some do it by adding external attributes and waza, such a judo or more aggressive approaches. Others state that they aren't interested in martial attributes that much, some not at all.
So again, I wonder, how many were they to learn and feel the power available would opt for that as the core of what there new “Aikido with AIKI” would be. It wouldn’t look or feel like what they currently doing and their power would go way up. Would it change their view of both Ueshiba, and their own art.
I don't think it’s a belief without substance. I think it's a belief with substance. Which is why I am a fan of the man, not what has become of his art. Were folks to be enabled to experience and have power to really stop and handle much higher levels of aggression with much more ease and joy, I think it would actually change them-in all the ways outlined in many posts. However it would change them by enabling them to exhibit aiki and do aiki.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Most Aikidoka are concerned with cultivating the "True Spirit of Aikido" Most have different interpretations on what Ushiba meant by that.

Can one have Aiki Spirit without Aiki Power? Yup
Nope
We hold a different view of what aiki really is. I don't see blending and giving ground as aiki. I see it as power to kill, but to make peace. Unless your body is imbued with that power, you wont transcend to a place where you can see through its use to maim or its use to make peace. It's all cheap talk. I think fighters of many different disciplines, (not just aikido) have a clearer understanding of just what that means than those who always shy away from higher levels of confrontations. The peace it can bring comes from the power it holds and the peace it brings to you.

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Will Having an Aiki Spirit make the Aikidoka a better human being? Yup
Again, looking at where Ueshiba came from and what he enjoyed doing and exhibiting was?....
Power
Any answer is meaningless without common understanding. Staring at someone through their center and more or less sending good or neutralizing thoughts their way is not something-it seems-Ueshiba was saying, nor doing

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
I humbly submit that unless one cultivates their spirit in any Martial Arts practice (Which by the way is the goal of most ALL Asian Martial Arts) that they will become forever lost in the power of their technique and will never see the meaning behind why they practice and what they do....

William Hazen
And cultivating what Aiki-do was and is meant to be is the cultivation I am talking about. Not pacifism without strength. Once someone understand AIki -"Giving in to get your way" takes on a different meaning.

Last edited by DH : 05-27-2008 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:06 PM   #169
Aikibu
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
William
There was no passive/aggressive intent on my end. I am at work. Let me wrap my head around what I am trying to say and see if I can make it more clear later. It’s really not a value judgment as it is all correct. No one is wrong. At least in the sense that they have picked and chose what they wanted to do. I was talking about what would happen if the more passive group was given real aiki, and how it would or could change them and their expression of the art.
It isn't a question of you or I. It's a question of what Uehsiba was doing, which as Peter pointed out was by no means as simplistic as "Fight does not work in aikido" would suggest.
You read a host of people trying to make their aikido more martially effective and sound. Some do it by adding external attributes and waza, such a judo or more aggressive approaches. Others state that they aren't interested in martial attributes that much, some not at all.
So again, I wonder, how many were they to learn and feel the power available would opt for that as the core of what there new “Aikido with AIKI” would be. It wouldn’t look or feel like what they currently doing and their power would go way up. Would it change their view of both Ueshiba, and their own art.
I don't think it’s a belief without substance. I think it's a belief with substance. Which is why I am a fan of the man, not what has become of his art. Were folks to be enabled to experience and have power to really stop and handle much higher levels of aggression with much more ease and joy, I think it would actually change them-in all the ways outlined in many posts. However it would change them by enabling them to exhibit aiki and do aiki.
I understand what you're trying to convey I think. I just suggest you work on your articulation of Aiki. For the record I never wanted to emulate Usihiba's Aikido I much prefer Shoji Nishio Shihan's interpretation of it. It's a much more technically improved version of it grounded in Budo That may be hard for some in the Aikido world to accept but those folks just need to jump out of the box they have constructed around Aikido. The cultivation of Aiki Power/Spirit in my experiance can be done through other means than Martial ones...So I am not sure why you think it's neccesary to link power with martial intent and deride the power of non-martial techniques like Pacifism

Quote:
Nope
We hold a different view of what aiki really is. I don't see blending and giving ground as aiki. I see it as power to kill, but to make peace. Unless your body is imbued with that power, you wont transcend to a place where you can see through its use to maim or its use to make peace. It's all cheap talk. I think fighters of many different disciplines, (not just aikido) have a clearer understanding of just what that means than those who always shy away from higher levels of confrontations. The peace it can bring comes from the power it holds and the peace it brings to you.
Again your preaching to the choir Dan. I understand what your saying and we just have different flavors of the same ice cream is all. The caveat to this kind of power was best stated by Lord Acton "Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts absolutely." The DR Master that Ushiba learned from only saw the power of destruction in Aiki and as Eric Mead and Professor Goldsbury both infer O'Sensei saw the folly of this...Maybe I am missing something but this general caveat about Aiki Power is no where in your recent posts.

Quote:
Again, looking at where Ueshiba came from and what he enjoyed doing and exhibiting was?....
Power
Any answer is meaningless without common understanding. Staring at someone through their center and more or less sending good or neutralizing thoughts their way is not something-it seems-Ueshiba was saying, nor doing
I did not mean to suggest that either Dan what I meant was one can develop Aiki Spirit without Aiki Power...Indeed Millions of Chinese practice Tai Chi everyday...How many would you venture to guess develop that kind of power? Millions of us sit Zazen everyday. Do I sound enlightened to you. LOL I humbly submit to you however that sitting may have made me a better person...LOL

The Car is only a Vehicle for the journey...

Quote:
And cultivating what Aiki-do was and is meant to be is the cultivation I am talking about. Not pacifism without strength. Once someone understand AIki -"Giving in to get your way" takes on a different meaning.
No the meaning is the same in my view it's just expressed along the 3 axis's of the human experiance Physical, Ego, and Spiritual. It is possible to cultivate one two or all three using only the physical However it is alos possible to express Aiki without mastering all three too (one LIFTOFF!!! lol)

William Hazen
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Old 05-28-2008, 04:23 AM   #170
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

***Please hold for a momentary thread hijack***

Does anyone know why Dan never responds to my emails.
It really makes it hard to communicate...

***Please continue with your regularly scheduled thread***

Take Care

-Blake

Last edited by Blake Holtzen : 05-28-2008 at 04:24 AM. Reason: I am a poor speller
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:39 AM   #171
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Hi Blake,
Dan is hard to get, he's a busy man.

In other words, get in line! No, really, I just think he's really swamped is all.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:06 AM   #172
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
The caveat to this kind of power was best stated by Lord Acton "Power corrupts and Absolute Power corrupts absolutely."
With great power comes great responsibility.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:14 AM   #173
Aikibu
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
With great power comes great responsibility.
And in a nutshell.. this describes Budo.

Thanks DC

William Hazen
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:50 PM   #174
Rick Berry
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

Who's right, who's wrong, who cares? Why must contention come into conversation rather than reason and thoughtfulness? I simply leave you with this thought to ponder: There is a Rosicrucian saying that's almost as old as time. Those who know don't say; those who say don't know.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:07 PM   #175
MM
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Re: Fight does not work at all in Aikido.

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Rick Berry wrote: View Post
Who's right, who's wrong, who cares? Why must contention come into conversation rather than reason and thoughtfulness? I simply leave you with this thought to ponder: There is a Rosicrucian saying that's almost as old as time. Those who know don't say; those who say don't know.
First, there is right and there is wrong. Sometimes, you get shades of grey. But, in the strictest sense, you are either one or the other. Step outside on a sunny, cloudless day and tell someone that the sky is neon orange, full of clouds with bright yellow spots floating around them. Good luck with that.

Or how about you tell your budo teacher who cares if he's/she's right or wrong in teaching you his/her martial art. There are quite a few people who have been led down the wrong path in the martial arts and when they found out about it, they weren't very happy.

Second, contention comes into play because people are too stupid to realize that they're arguing from very marshy, sandy ground and while they're sinking rapidly, they're still yelling that everything around them is just fine. When, all they'd have to do is step away from the quicksand and onto more solid ground to get a look at other things out there, instead of trying to convince people that their world is really great. Reason? Thoughtfulness? Or emotional touchy feely drivel? (And for those of you who like to jump the gun, no, this is not directed towards the OP or anyone in particular. It's a generalization like the rest of the post.)

Third, it seems like a silly quote, wouldn't you say? I mean, it pretty much takes out all teachers worldwide. Rather than having great teachers who are passing on information, according to that quote, those teachers would be silent. And the ones actually "teaching" would be clueless. Would you tell *your* teacher that quote? And in essence, label him/her as someone who doesn't know? Beyond that, if everyone who did know, didn't say, then all that knowledge would have died with them. So, we wouldn't have all that koryu history, would we? Kind of hard to put a lot of stock into a saying that really doesn't apply to most of the world, wouldn't you say?

Mark
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