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Old 05-23-2008, 05:23 PM   #101
gregg block
 
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Re: Gungrabs

George L wrote -My objection to most retention or takeaway systems is that they do not utilize enough impact technique. If you take a gun away from someone and you haven't struck them, you are almost certainly now grappling for that weapon.

All of the best retention and takeaway systems I have seen involve serious impact and preferably balance breaks thereby giving you the time to bring the firearm to bear on the assailant. Aikido - Aiki jutsu derived techniques are great for this but you need to have major atemi and you should train to shoot the assailant as part of the takeaway

Thank you George. You are right on here. Krav Maga stresses these very points in gun take aways (in fact in all aspects of their self defence system)
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Old 05-24-2008, 04:44 PM   #102
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post

IMO modern budo should include tactical driving, pistol, rifle, shotgun, knives, clubs and long blades; as well as empty hand.

The more realistic you make it, the better.
Don't forget "spot the loony"!
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:52 AM   #103
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Re: Gungrabs

Appropos this subject, both tactically and mindset-wise:

from PoliceOne.com

Officer's Fight for Life Yields 9 Crucial Survival Lessons

Charles Remsberg

The 25-year-old gangbanger was a significant player in the life of Chicago P.D. Officer Candace Milovich-Fitzsimmons for less than two minutes. In that flicker of time she says he changed her approach to policing forever.

He wanted to kill her, she believes, but instead he was the one who died, leaving a legacy of lessons that she's convinced will help her survive for the remainder of her career-and can help other officers better face the mean streets as well.

"I didn't go looking for this," she told PoliceOne in an exclusive interview recently. "It found me."

If her sergeant had been a bit indulgent, she wouldn't have confronted those watershed moments at all.

At about 10:45 one chilly Monday night last November, having just transported a prisoner for a tac team, Milovich-Fitzsimmons and her young partner, Matt Blomstrand, were hanging around their district station on Chicago's Northwest Side, hoping to get cut loose from duty since only 15 minutes remained of their shift. "Too early to check off," their sergeant said. "Get back out there." So they did, Milovich-Fitzsimmons driving.

As they approached an intersection a few blocks away, a black Ford Explorer caught their eye up a side street. "It was going about 5 or 10 miles an hour," Milovich-Fitzsimmons recalls, "jerking back and forth like someone was jiggling the steering, and the horn was blowing like a maniac."

A domestic, they figured…and kept going. "Then our conscience got the best of us, and we went looking for that car." They quickly found it on a dimly lit street in a neighborhood predominately of small, single-family houses.

As they swung in behind, a male jumped out of the rear passenger-side seat, ran a few yards, then apparently changed his mind and ran back, trying to climb back in as the SUV stuttered forward in a jerky series of stops and lurches.

No brake lights signaled the stops, and the third time the vehicle abruptly halted the squad car rear-ended it.

What the officers had interrupted would be revealed only after Milovich-Fitzsimmons endured the most violent encounter of her 10 years as a Chicago cop. According to what police later pieced together, the male who'd been trying to reenter the vehicle and two cholos inside were members of the vicious Spanish Cobras street gang. The other occupant was a 33-year-old man who a few minutes earlier had been walking up to his front door from work, carrying a jug of milk for his family.

He was hailed by a young male pedestrian with a cane who insistently asked him for a ride somewhere. The mark had a "bad feeling" about the guy, so rather than risk the safety of his family he decided to "sacrifice" himself, and agreed. As the two approached his Ford Explorer, two more individuals leaped from the shadows, pushed the victim into the SUV and took off with him. Their original plan apparently was to hold him for ransom.

Inside the car, the assailants reportedly took $350 and a cell phone from the victim, then started taking turns beating him with their fists and the cane. Investigators believe they changed their mind about their crime plan and instead decided to drive to a desolate industrial area in the district and there murder the man.

The herky-jerky movement of the SUV was caused by the desperate victim grabbing the gear-shift lever and jamming it in and out of PARK.

Immediately upon the collision with the squad car, the gangbanger outside the Explorer and the one who'd been driving bolted. Milovich-Fitzsimmons radioed in a foot pursuit and beat feet after the driver. Blomstrand was delayed in exiting their unit because the crash had jammed his door. By the time he crawled out through his window, Milovich-Fitzsimmons had disappeared into the darkness. Blomstrand, with less than three years on the job, focused his attention on the two running vehicles, the beating victim who tumbled out of the SUV in a bloody heap, and the cholo inside who was trying to climb out through a rear door.

Milovich-Fitzsimmons, meanwhile, was sucked into a worsening series of clashes with the driver.

First she caught up with him on a parkway along the street and shoved him to his hands and knees. She had hold of his coat but before she could get a body grip, he pushed up, easily pulled out of the jacket and took off again. "That's why gangbangers never wear their coats closed," she told PoliceOne. "And they tend to wear a couple, so if they wiggle out of one they still have an outer garment."

The foot chase continued down an "extremely dark" gangway between two bungalows. Milovich-Fitzsimmons caught the driver again in an alley behind some garages and pushed him against a wrought-iron fence. "Get down on the ground!" she yelled.

Instead, "he whips around and starts fighting." During the tussle, her shoulder mike popped off, swinging around her legs out of reach for calling for help.

Milovich-Fitzsimmons felt no panic. Through a decade's experience, the 39-year-old, trim, blond officer with a tough-but-fair reputation was accustomed to scrapping with suspects and had never encountered a situation she couldn't control. "I was thinking very clearly, giving basic commands to myself to stay in the fight," she recalls. "I couldn't understand why he was so violent, though." Unaware of the kidnapping, she thought she was dealing just with a run-of-the-mill hot car.

At a point when Milovich-Fitzsimmons grabbed her adversary by the shirt, he tripped and fell to the ground. "Stay down!" she yelled. He raised his hands for a moment, "teetering on his ass" and looking beyond her, evidently checking for her partner. Then he lunged toward her, grabbed the butt of her holstered S&W 9mm and used it as leverage to pull himself up.

"I could feel the top strap unsnap and the holster open," Milovich-Fitzsimmons says. "It was the first time my weapon had ever been threatened. I thought, 'I'm in big trouble here.'"

What she calls "Neanderthal thoughts" guided her-Reach here! Do this! "Very loud, very basic, like someone yelling at me in my head." She fought to keep her gun in her Level II holster while the 'banger continued to yank at it with one hand while trying to smash her in the face with his other.

Finally she managed to break away from him and pull her gun. "Get on the ground!" she screamed. He lunged for her again. She squeezed the trigger and fired a round, "the first time I'd ever shot my weapon on duty. As soon as I pulled the trigger, I knew it was a good shoot."

Yes and no. The round went through the suspect's left hand and through his sleeve-then, incredibly, ricocheted off his forehead and ended up in the doorframe of a nearby garage.

Blood streaming down his face, the attacker grabbed again at Milovich-Fitzsimmons' semiauto. She beat him with it, directly on his wound, but he was unfazed. He shoved her against a row of garbage cans and fled across the alley into a vacant field, which soon became the third-and worst-scene of the progressive fight.

Milovich-Fitzsimmons holstered and secured her S&W, took out her cuffs and went after him. When she caught up to him, he'd fallen to his hands and knees. "I thought, 'Game over' and I moved in to take him into custody. Color me wrong.

"All I could see were his wrists-major tunnel vision. I heard that voice in my head, Wrist…cuff." But when she got close, the suspect tackled her and although she beat him with the handcuffs, he took her to the ground. The cuffs flew from her hand.

"We grappled all over the place," she says. "I was punching him, kicking him in the face and chest, twisting his balls for all I was worth. He never flinched…just got angrier." She drew her gun but couldn't get a shot. Seven inches taller and outweighing her by nearly 90 pounds, the suspect pinned her, smashed her in the face and fought again for control of her weapon.

"His hands were like hams," she says. "He was able to bend my wrist so the gun was pointing right against my throat. I got scratches from the muzzle." A weight trainer-"I'm stronger than I look"-Milovich-Fitzsimmons first managed to push the gun off target, then turn it toward him. She pulled the trigger, but nothing happened. The suspect was clamping the slide so it couldn't move.

The muzzle twisted back and forth as the officer fought desperately to save her life and the suspect fought to take it. "It seemed like an eternity. I fought with everything I had but I couldn't stop him. I was physically spent. I knew I couldn't hang on much longer."

Then the voice in her head came back. "Loud as day," three names echoed in her skull: Jake…Alex…Eddie. Her three sons.

"I can't give up!" she told herself. Despite her exhaustion, she continued to keep the muzzle away from her head and body until she glimpsed "my angel"-a man in a blue uniform shirt-running toward them from the alley. He was a responding officer whom her partner had sent in the direction he'd last seen her run as she pursued the suspect fleeing from the collision.

"Shoot this motherfucker!" she screamed. "He's got my gun!"

Almost at contact distance, the officer fired four fast rounds. One grazed Milovich-Fitzsimmons' right hand. Three hit the suspect. He collapsed, dead, on top of her.

"By then," Milovich-Fitzsimmons says, "I think I was slipping into shock. I could hear voices but I couldn't respond to them or move or even open my eyes. And I couldn't stop shaking. I was vibrating from head to toe."

From the moment she radioed in the foot pursuit until the backup officer called in the fatal shooting, only 1 minute 45 seconds elapsed. What happened during that brief time "changed me tremendously," says Milovich-Fitzsimmons, whose husband and sister are Chicago P.D. sergeants. She enumerates the mistakes she believes she made and the lessons she learned:

"When we were fighting in the alley and I shot, I should have kept shooting. When I had firearms training in the academy, we shot once, holstered and waited for the next instruction. We talked about two to the chest and one to the head, but we didn't do it. You perform like you train. My greatest regret is that I didn't light him up in the alley when I had the chance. I won't stop short like that again. If I'm justified in shooting, I'll shoot and keep shooting and not look so much to other avenues."
"When I reholstered my weapon, I deescalated prematurely, going for my cuffs. I should have made a greater effort to grab my radio and get help. I should have anticipated that the fight might not be over yet."
"When we were fighting, I used constant verbal commands. Yelling at him took a lot of energy, exhausted me. We're required to give verbal commands, but I would limit them more and concentrate on physically overcoming my adversary."
"Would I carry an extra gun? Absolutely not. I was in the fight of my life to retain just one. What if I'd had a backup gun in an ankle holster when I kicked him and he'd grabbed it? It's hard enough to hold onto one gun without having to keep track of two."
"The first thing I said when I finally went off duty that night was, 'I want a different gun, a .45.' I went to the range and tried several weapons. I ended up selecting a Sig-Sauer 9mm. It's light, with an easy trigger pull. I shot a tight group the first time I fired it. I'm going to the range more often now. I want to feel more comfortable with a gun. It wasn't second nature to me when I needed to use it."
"I find myself less tolerant to resistance from suspects now. If someone gets jumpy, I throw the cuffs on them. I'm not going to play anymore. I find myself analyzing people and situations a lot more closely. I will never, ever allow myself to be put in that situation again."
"After I had some time off and then went back on duty, I felt like I was coming down with the flu one night. I asked myself, 'If I have to get into something tonight, can I defend myself?' I decided to stay home. Before, I would have brushed it off and gone in, full of bravado. Now I know I need to be on top of my game when I'm working. I can't imagine going through the kind of fight I had feeling sick."
"At the station, some cops were talking about my incident, and one of the females said, 'If that had been me, I'd be dead.' Others nodded in agreement. I went off on them. 'Never give up!' I said. 'The minute you think that way, you've lost! If you're thinking you can't survive, you won't, and you'll be just another officer on a mass card.' I try to talk to other officers about what happened, because I want them to see what can be learned from it."
"I've become more involved with fitness. Sometimes I work out 10 times a week now. Before the incident, I could bench press 110 on a good day. Now I've set a goal of 238, the weight of the guy who attacked me. I'm already up to 160."
Officer Milovich-Fitzsimmons teaches a psychology workshop for recruits at the Chicago Police Academy. She knows something about motivation. She keeps a Polaroid of her assailant's body, decorated with gang tattoos, at her gym.

"He was in my life such a short time, but he altered so much of me," she says. "I look at that picture, and it gets me very angry. It pushes me to work harder."
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Old 05-26-2008, 07:44 PM   #104
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

great testimony
did she have a revolver?
now changing to a Sig Sauer?
dated when? 1990's
great self analysis.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:11 PM   #105
Walter Martindale
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Re: Gungrabs

Do modern US police use anything but semi-auto as a duty sidearm?
Do S&W 9mm come in anything but semi-auto?
Somewhere in there she said something about the "The suspect was clamping the slide so it couldn't move." (but I wonder if it had been jammed from the previous shot, not properly cycled, so there would be a spent case in the chamber?)
Nevertheless - good story.
Izumi's DVD has a couple of "keep your gun" moves. He's still using the wooden one I made in 1994, patterned after my (then) CZ75.
W
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:19 PM   #106
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Do modern US police use anything but semi-auto as a duty sidearm?
Do S&W 9mm come in anything but semi-auto?
Somewhere in there she said something about the "The suspect was clamping the slide so it couldn't move." (but I wonder if it had been jammed from the previous shot, not properly cycled, so there would be a spent case in the chamber?)
Nevertheless - good story.
Izumi's DVD has a couple of "keep your gun" moves. He's still using the wooden one I made in 1994, patterned after my (then) CZ75.
W
Walter,

You are seeing what I am seeing in the text, thus it must have been a "wheel gun" i.e. a revolver. You can prevent the actgion of a revolver by grabbing tightly on the cylander. But a semi-auto will still fire the chambered round no matter how tightly you hold the slide.

By the way, Saturday, we performed and filmed the semi-auto demostration I discussed for the guys at the Mojo (Just This Aikido) with Sensei Moe Stevens. I will post it as soon as I get it up on Youtube.
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Old 05-26-2008, 10:28 PM   #107
KIT
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Re: Gungrabs

Unless, as Walter noted, the slide failed to cycle ejecting the spent casing.

I have no further details on what was posted, so I am unclear on the same things you guys are.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:04 PM   #108
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Re: Gungrabs

I'm thinking she kicked the safety on and didn't remember to take it off.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:20 PM   #109
Walter Martindale
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Walter,

You are seeing what I am seeing in the text, thus it must have been a "wheel gun" i.e. a revolver. You can prevent the actgion of a revolver by grabbing tightly on the cylander. But a semi-auto will still fire the chambered round no matter how tightly you hold the slide.

By the way, Saturday, we performed and filmed the semi-auto demostration I discussed for the guys at the Mojo (Just This Aikido) with Sensei Moe Stevens. I will post it as soon as I get it up on Youtube.
Well... I went to S&W's website - all of their 9mms are semi-auto.
You can prevent a semi-auto from firing if you have the slide pushed slightly back "out of battery", which is why it's not a good idea to jam the muzzle of many slide-guns against the target - pushes the slide back to the point where the disconnector (in a 1911) or other safety mechanisms prevent firing. Or, the hammer hits the back of the slide on an angle and doesn't reach the firing pin because the slide is back - if the slide then closes, you've got a trigger in a "fired" condition on an uncocked gun, with the hammer having followed the slide down and not hit the pin hard enough to fire - Firing pins are slightly short so that they're held away from the primer when the slide closes, and need to be struck by the 'whammer' to have enough momentum to fire the primer. (in another life I'm a target shooter who's done some customizing work on a 1911 and replaced lots of bits and pieces of a non-functioning CZ85 to bring it back to (safe) life) If the frame extends all the way to the muzzle this is less a problem.
Or, the previous round didn't properly eject due to close contact interfering with slide action.
Or she didn't kick off the safety the second time (can't recall if she said that, not going back through the file)

Oops - gotta go to work...
W
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:26 PM   #110
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

walter

That makes slot of sense.
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Old 05-27-2008, 03:28 PM   #111
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

walter

That makes a lot of sense.
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Old 05-27-2008, 04:14 PM   #112
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Gungrabs

So much for pain based control, huh? She's twisting his soft bits, he's shot through the hand and with a bullet dent in his forehead and the guy's still playing hard.

IMO, if she's going to be a street cop she'd better add a good dojo to her range and gym regimen. She's a tough chick, but she needs a third level of game to resort to.
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:04 PM   #113
Mark Kruger
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
ell... I went to S&W's website - all of their 9mms are semi-auto.
Currently they aren't producing 9mm revolvers. They have in the past: the model 547 and the model 940. Ruger and Taurus have also made 9mm revolvers.

Having said that, the odds are that she was using a semi-auto.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 05-27-2008, 05:50 PM   #114
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Re: Gungrabs

In the article, it says it's a semi-auto. If I am remembering correctly.

David M. Valadez
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:43 PM   #115
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
George L wrote -My objection to most retention or takeaway systems is that they do not utilize enough impact technique. If you take a gun away from someone and you haven't struck them, you are almost certainly now grappling for that weapon.

All of the best retention and takeaway systems I have seen involve serious impact and preferably balance breaks thereby giving you the time to bring the firearm to bear on the assailant. Aikido - Aiki jutsu derived techniques are great for this but you need to have major atemi and you should train to shoot the assailant as part of the takeaway

Thank you George. You are right on here. Krav Maga stresses these very points in gun take aways (in fact in all aspects of their self defence system)
I personally would not choose the Krav tactic of striking the opponent who is trying to point my or his gun at me. Wouldn't striking the bad guy suggest that you are trying to control the gun with one hand?

If we are in a fight over a gun, I would prefer to have both hands on the weapon and both feet on the ground. I might "nutt" him or bite his thumbs, but I would really prefer to control the weapon.... at least until I know it cannot fire.

I have attached, as promised, a video of how to cause the first round to fire and thus create a malfunction in a semi-auto weapon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gklVq_AWBY4

Once the weapon is inoperable, I would try to reap or otherwise throw the attacker to the ground. This would give me time to present my own firearm or my knife. If I have a firearm and have not ended on the ground myself, I would create distance and revert to my it as my primary defense.

Just an aside, has anyone ever trained in clearing malfunctions from a prone position? I bet it is a rare bad guys who has trained it.
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:46 PM   #116
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Re: Gungrabs

On a semi-auto with a safety, its also not unusual for it to be engaged simply during the struggle over the gun, or for double feeds to occur.

Lots of sim gun grappling make this kind of stuff pretty readily diagnosed, though fighting with a fully resistive attacker while clearing a double feed can be - challenging.
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:34 PM   #117
Mark Kruger
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When Kit talks about a fully resistive attacker, I suspect he means something like:

http://totalprotectioninteractive.co...Portland02.wmv

and

http://www.vimeo.com/1072283

The later scenarios are set up so that there is an initiative deficit on the part of the student. Also the combination of simunitions and padded helmets allows for strong strikes and lots of resistance with minimal threat of permanent injury. (I did get my bell rung by several strikes during the evolutions I participated in, and the bruises from simunitions lasted for several days after the class.) The end result is very different from work with attackers who aren't fully engaged and/or scripted endings.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 05-28-2008, 03:52 PM   #118
Mark Kruger
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Re: Gungrabs

By fully resistive attacker, I think Kit has something like the following in mind:

http://totalprotectioninteractive.com/video/ECQC_01.wmv
http://totalprotectioninteractive.co...Portland02.wmv

The simunitions guns and the helmets allow for much stronger strikes and resistance to be used in the scenario while minimizing the chance of serious injury. I did get my bell rung several times from strikes during my participation in various evolutions and a simunitions round leaves quite the bruise. This increases the stress placed on the participants and quickly reveals the plethora of techniques that work under low pressure but fail under high pressure.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:24 PM   #119
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Re: Gungrabs

[quote=Chris Parkerson;207432]I[ personally would not choose the Krav tactic of striking the opponent who is trying to point my or his gun at me. Wouldn't striking the bad guy suggest that you are trying to control the gun with one hand?

If we are in a fight over a gun, I would prefer to have both hands on the weapon and both feet on the ground. I might "nutt" him or bite his thumbs, but I would really prefer to control the weapon.... at least until I know it cannot fire]



I do respect your opinion and desire to keep both hands on the weapon. You take your life in your hands when dealing with a gun and the advantage is definitely his. I dont want to wrestle with a guy with a gun . Without stunning him with some type of strike it will be a wrestling match. Krav techniques are pretty well tested by the Israeli army against guns and other weapons. They tend to get a lot of practice in their neck of the woods.

Last edited by gregg block : 05-28-2008 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:17 PM   #120
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

[quote=Gregg Block;207484]
Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I[ personally would not choose the Krav tactic of striking the opponent who is trying to point my or his gun at me. Wouldn't striking the bad guy suggest that you are trying to control the gun with one hand?

If we are in a fight over a gun, I would prefer to have both hands on the weapon and both feet on the ground. I might "nutt" him or bite his thumbs, but I would really prefer to control the weapon.... at least until I know it cannot fire]

I do respect your opinion and desire to keep both hands on the weapon. You take your life in your hands when dealing with a gun and the advantage is definitely his. I dont want to wrestle with a guy with a gun . Without stunning him with some type of strike it will be a wrestling match. Krav techniques are pretty well tested by the Israeli army against guns and other weapons. They tend to get a lot of practice in their neck of the woods.
I have no doubt they are within the mission they are tasked with.
As for my personal mission (bodyguard), I am most likely to encounter aggression while protecting a third party. The shooter will be focussed on getting his rounds off under the duress of time.

A mafia hitman once described his reality as the perpetrator like this, "Once you're in, you are like an egg in a frying pan. You get two seconds to get in, see him and pop him. You stand still more than a second, you heat up and fry."

Or as Sara Jane Moore formed her mantra while training to shoot President Ford, "Hold-Hold still my hand. Steady my eye, chill my heart, and let my gun sing for the people."

My initial task will be to close the gap and control the arm (between the elbow and deltoid) with one hand while attaching to the forearm with the other. The perpetrator will probably execute all of his or her rounds but I intend to give direction to as many of them as possible. It is my hope to have the rounds go down and away from my protectee or myself.

If I can cause the weapon to jam, so much the better.

To make things simple in my mind, I have adopted this drill for all gun grab defenses (my gun or his gun). This way, I do not get confused when the chaos begins.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:47 PM   #121
KIT
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Re: Gungrabs

Good video Chris, that should hopefully clear things up for folks.

And I'm a two hands on guy myself. Plenty of other ways to hit a guy.
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:53 AM   #122
Bronson
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Good video. Would have liked to see hearing and eye protection.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-29-2008, 10:30 AM   #123
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bronson Diffin wrote: View Post
Good video. Would have liked to see hearing and eye protection.

Bronson
Sorry Mom. I will remember next time.
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Old 05-30-2008, 05:34 AM   #124
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Gungrabs

Hello Chris & Greg

I do not think that both hands on the gun and one hand on and strike are really mutually exclusive.
Like open hand, knife, sword or spear. Sometimes you need to grab & strike sometime a grab from both hands is better.

I mean striking the head do isolate the shoulders form the spine so controlling the arm is made much easier.
Some aikido dojos have atemi integrated in most in not all the technique. That being said, atemis are delivered in such way they lead to the technique. (So you will end up in a two hands control.)

I think that what Greg is talking about and not necessarily the chain punch that you sometime see in some Krav demonstration.

Phil

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In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-30-2008, 08:17 AM   #125
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello Chris & Greg

I do not think that both hands on the gun and one hand on and strike are really mutually exclusive.
Like open hand, knife, sword or spear. Sometimes you need to grab & strike sometime a grab from both hands is better.

I mean striking the head do isolate the shoulders form the spine so controlling the arm is made much easier.
Some aikido dojos have atemi integrated in most in not all the technique. That being said, atemis are delivered in such way they lead to the technique. (So you will end up in a two hands control.)

I think that what Greg is talking about and not necessarily the chain punch that you sometime see in some Krav demonstration.

Phil
It has been my position for several years that suppression tumps attrition in most street fights. That bias being said, I do hold a 6th degree in Kenpo and a teacher's certificate in Cinco Mano Escrima.
I do transition between "both hands on" and "one hand on/one hand striking" in the corto (Close cutting) and medio (medium) ranges. But when things get belly to belly, that is where the opponent's strength lies and that is where the blade cuts best. It is also where the pistol is most dangerous. Now the fight is truly one man's center dominating the other man's center. This is where the Judo/Jujitsu match lies. It is here that two hands becomes instinctive (like the power of a Tai Chi "ball", "Press", "ward off", or an Aikido "Sankyo". When two hands come together, there is better structure and leverage.

Try this tactic, there is a lot of discussion on another thread right now about making Kote gaesi work with resistance. What happens when uke's arm regresses (shrinks) so that his wrist and hand are near his ribs? Can you make a one handed Kote gaeshi work from there?

Conclusion, punching works as cover fire, distration, and minor damage (rarely a knock-out) when entering from the Largo (long) range through the medio and corto ranges. But once you grab a pistol, the gunman shrinks his arms ans will you do the same. You are now in a Judo fight and will need both hands on the weapon system.

Quote:
Weapon system defined
: any weapon that is held in a hand is part of a weapons system. The muzzle, the front sight, the butt of the pistol, the hand's backfist, the forearm, elbow and shoulder can be used as weapons.
Now the issue with a firearm is that this is how most trained gunmen will react. They will shrink their arm and gun. It is different from the knife that shrinks. It is a firearm and can reach out and touch you with the pull of the trigger.
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