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Old 05-21-2008, 05:31 AM   #1
dalen7
 
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Uchikaiten Sankyo

Im up for taking both my 6th & 5th Kyu test in June.
In my 5th kyu test there is one technique, that quite frankly we have never done in practice - that I can recall, with the exception of this past training session when we did our first 'mock' test.

The technique is UchiKatien Sankyo.
From how I gathered, and I completely messed it up - I was trying naga waza and this is a katama waza technique - (pinning vs. throwing)...anyway...

...it seems the point is to go under Ukes arm, like in UchiKaiten naga, but to then apply sankyo... (boy am I good at explanations)

I went to my Aikido 3D disk to see if I could find it (even under kaiten naga or sankyo) but I did not see it together.

Any of you familiar with the technique and care to give a step by step play through of how to properly go through this?

I havent really even seen the term UchiKatien here - mainly kaiten nage, though it appears to be the same thing.

Oh...I forgot, this is Ai Hanmi Katate Tori - Uchikaiten Sankyo

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 05:48 AM   #2
dalen7
 
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

O.k.
Just saw this You tube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AYjLTHmy10

But it is different than how we do it.

Basically, in Ai Hanmi - say Uke grabs my right hand.
I would step to my left and break ukes grip on my right wrist by rolling down and grabbing with my left free hand to 'tighten ukes wrist' so they let go.

Then I would continue to hold uke with my left hand, and take my new free right hand and 'atemi' uke and step under...

At this point is where the Sankyo bit would come in or the 'cut' and throw.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:07 AM   #3
Dazzler
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

I cant see the youtube clip - banned in my office but heres something from a few years ago...not ai hanmi but close enough.

I've changed some of my thoughts since I wrote this but most of it I agree with still. Hope it helps

Daren

SHOMENUCHI UCHI KAITEN SANKKYO

There are several ways in which this technique can be performed. All are relatively similar and relate to the moves practiced in uchi kaiten nage which is preparation for sankyo.

We tend to practice just ura versions of this since we utilise our response to ukes shomen and therefore always start on the receiving end.

Remembering that there are 2 versions of shomen we have at least 2 methods to achieve this.

Here I will actually cover three all of which are basically the same but with minor differences to accommodate Tori defending by moving inside or outside ukes attack and also depending on the type of shomen used by uke.

Starting with the standard downward cut to the head with uke stepping forward to strike. Tori takes ai hamni posture. Assuming uke strikes with their left hand, as uke strikes Tori steps forward and applies atemi to ukes head with their right hand. They will have stepped with their right foot. This step should blend with ukes attack -- step too soon and the attack changes direction, step too late and it will hurt! The step also takes uke safetly off line and their kamae will be approximately at 45% to uke with lead foot pointing towards uke.

While stepping Toris left hand comes over the top of ukes attacking hand. It is not a block. Instead it applies downward pressure to blend with ukes downward strike. As the strike concludes its descent Toris hand can divert it from its original course and draw it in the direction of ukes centre.

As Ukes hand is diverted, Toris right hand retracts from its initial atemi and is in place in ukes centre to take control of ukes hand which toris left hand sweeps to Toris right. As tori grasps ukes hand his thumb should slide onto the back of ukes hand, Toris palm should wrap around ukes tegatana and Toris fingers will be in ukes palm.

From this position Tori lifts ukes hand up and out to the side of uke. It will now be at 90% to its original direction, and extended out to the side of uke. It should only be moved to its maximum full natural extension. Too short and Tori will be too close to uke. Too far and uke will be disturbed.

As Tori takes ukes arm out to the side he uses tsugayashi to move his own body off-line while lifting Ukes hand high. It should be easy to move it up since it is at the natural extension and there is no reason for uke to resist. As the right armof Tori raises ukes left arm, Tori uses atemi to stop uke turning while using irimi to move his centre to a position under ukes held hand.

A common mistake is for Tori to extend both hands so that he applies atemi and takes ukes hand to the side but does not move his own body. There is no irimi here, Tori remains in a dangerous position so kamae is not good. Furthermore the focus becomes fixed on the atemi instead of establishing a spiral which is the true value of sankyo.

At this point Tori is off line with his centre under ukes arm which Tori holds aloft with his right hand. He has just applied a light controlling atemi to ukes face and is about to turn to apply sankyo.

Since the finish from here will be the same for all three versions I'll recap and look at how we reach this position in the other 2 versions.

The second version of this can be used where a rising shomen uchi attack is used. This will rise up from ukes centre in the form of a heel of the hand strike to Toris chin or nose.

In this case Tori will again evade this strike by entering off-line and applying his own countering atemi. This time he will reach back under ukes hand which will be at the original position of Toris head, and then Tori will take the same grasp as before. Tori will then turn back to use irimi and atemi while stepping with tsugayashi to the position where sankyo is just about to be applied.

The third version of this really applies better to yokomen attack however for completeness I'll include it.

This time as uke strikes Tori will step inside and apply atemi to the face with his left hand while parrying (Not blocking !) the striking hand with his right hand.

From this position Tori can tsugayashi forward on his left foot thus practicing irimi and moving his centre once again to the position above. This will also involve moving ukes extended arm around to the side and up. This should not be difficult since ukes arm is now extended while Tori is fully centred behind it.

If there are any doubts to the efficiacy of this don't forget that uke has just received atemi. A great discouragement to any tendancy to block a partners moves.

So with all three options explored we are again at the position where Tori is off line with his centre under ukes arm which Tori holds aloft with his right hand. He has just applied a light controlling atemi to ukes face and is about to turn to apply sankyo.

From this position Tori now steps forward with his back leg, stepping under ukes raised arm. He will be using heppo geri foot movement. As his left foot land he turns back to face the same direction as uke and reinforces the right hand grip on ukes hand by also gripping the other side of ukes held hand. This sandwiches it between Toris palms.

At this stage Toris turn starts to subject uke arm to a spiralling control. As Tori turns in the same direction as uke, Ukes fingers will be held pointing downwards and his elbow points skywards. The sankyo will be starting to take effect.

There are many things that could take place from this point, what we choose to do is continue the move in keeping with the rest of our practice. So at tis point Tori will tenkan back in the direction of ukes 3rd point and turn as he steps.

Toris hands remain in his centre so they start pointing in the direction that Uke originally struck but now point to the rear. As the turn takes place Tori raises his hands which increases the impact of the sankyo by spiralling upwards. This cause uke to jump back and raises them onto their toes. At this point the sankyo is very powerful.

What Tori does as he applies the sankyo in this manner is to move uke to a position which restores Toris good kamae. He must turn far enough to move ukes to the safe position outside of Toris front foot. This will be the right foot if you can still follow this!

Once uke is outside of Toris front foot Tori can cut uke all the way down to the floor. Since uke will have been up on his toes and under the control of the sankyo it should be possible to cut uke all the way down so that his posture is destroyed and he has to break his fall with his right hand. As the cut completes Tori releases his left hand grip on uke.

From here the finish depends on uke. Michael Narey often cracks a joke ‘it's the way the uke crumbles'. You can decide if you like this …or not.

Anyway, for now I'll assume that as uke breaks their fall they have their lead leg protecting their groin. This means that Tori will be in a postion to execute an ura version of the sankyo finish.

So as uke breaks his fall, before he can reset himself Tori turns to the rear of uke, lightly pulling ukes held hand past his own centre and out towards ukes rear. Toris free left hand will grip ukes elbow and tori first uses tsugayashi with right leg forward (irimi) before using tenkan with the left leg to turn and spiral uke to the floor.

From here the standard sankyo finish is applied.

As uke lands on his chest Tori can slide his left hand in to also control ukes elbow while kneeling either either side of ukes shoulder.

Toris right hand slides up to press ukes palm to his chest, his left hand curves palm up to bend ukes elbow and he lifts ukes arm while turning to ukes head to apply sankyo finish to uke.

For a tighter feeling he may grip ukes hand and apply an additional twist as he turns to ukes head with the twist also turning in this direction.

At all times throughout Tori should keep his head high maintaining his shisei and enabling breathing to remain unrestricted.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:34 AM   #4
dalen7
 
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
Daren Sims wrote: View Post

I've changed some of my thoughts since I wrote this but most of it I agree with still. Hope it helps

Daren
This is pretty detailed Daren, Thanks.

I would ask, when you have the time, to post what the changes in your perspective were in regards to what you wrote.

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:10 AM   #5
Dazzler
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
Dalen Johnson wrote: View Post
This is pretty detailed Daren, Thanks.

I would ask, when you have the time, to post what the changes in your perspective were in regards to what you wrote.

Peace

dAlen
In terms of the description of how the technique looks probably no major changes. I think its a reasonable stab at how UKS is done.

Most reading would probably see more common ground than differences I hope.

I feel much more awareness of my own centre and the impact of its movement on uke these days, I'm looking more and more at correct breathing and balance taking and also see some differences in the way I complete the takedown to the floor.

None of these relate to changes in the technique though, they are all personal changes reflecting a growth or change in my understanding (I hope).

I suspect at the time of writing I just wasn't ready to practice the way I do now, (the notes are about 5 years old), I also suspect and hope that in another 5 years I'll see things slightly differently again.

So they aren't gospel - nothing is - they were relavent when I wrote then and if they help then cool, and if they don't, maybe they will in the future.

Regards

D
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Old 05-21-2008, 08:49 AM   #6
rob_liberti
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
while lifting Ukes hand high
I disagree with this part. I would say AVOID lifting Uke's hand high as much as possible.

I find much better results by leaving that hand as low as possible and bending my knees to pass through. It keeps things tighter.

Rob
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:12 AM   #7
Dazzler
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I disagree with this part. I would say AVOID lifting Uke's hand high as much as possible.

I find much better results by leaving that hand as low as possible and bending my knees to pass through. It keeps things tighter.

Rob
Fair enough. As I say they are five year old notes.

For a beginner lifting the hand higher makes it easier to get under without destroying shisei. A bigger more obvious movement if you like.

So maybe it will help someone like Dalen.

For someone more experienced its probably less significant. If you want to bend your knees thats cool with me - mine aren't the best so I prefer to work in a way that feels most natural to me - create a doorway - move through it to a safe position and then apply the lock.

Again - not for a seconds saying this is gospel just my POV at the time.....and just words

If people think they help great, if they don't thats great too.

Cheers

D
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Old 05-21-2008, 09:39 AM   #8
Janet Rosen
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Uchi and Soto refer to going inside or outside the partner's arm.
Uchi usually involves entering and/or turning inside,thatis, between the arm and the body of the parter - think of irimi version of shihonage. Soto usually involves entering/turning on the outside of the arm and body - think basic tai no henko turning practice.

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Old 05-21-2008, 10:39 AM   #9
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I disagree with this part. I would say AVOID lifting Uke's hand high as much as possible.

I find much better results by leaving that hand as low as possible and bending my knees to pass through. It keeps things tighter.

Rob
I agree with this in essence. I would augment this visual by enlisting the movement of a sword cut. You gotta, eventually, be able to do this as if with a sword cut in any direction. But a waist level-horizontal cut with arms extended is a strong first step. As if cutting with the right hand ( cheap language sorry) and pushing the back of the blade with the left. This should give you some clearance, extension, and breathing room.

Dalen,
A thought: If this is on your exam it ought to be in the repetoire of your uke for the exam ( i.e. your sempai ). Cuz in every school things are demonstrated for that school. So all our good advice aside, where is your living example for this requirement. And if you haven't got one ask your sensei. As a matter of fact, ask them anyhow. Unless you already did and I missed that along the way.
Gambatte,
Jen

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Old 05-21-2008, 10:57 AM   #10
Basia Halliop
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

If you're expected to know it for your test then it's entirely reasonable to grab a more senior student or your instructor after class and ask if they have a moment to show you. The worse thing that could possibly happen is they'll say not today, they're in a hurry. No loss.

In my experience it's MUCH easier to understand by having someone show you slowly than by trying to explain in words. Plus if your instructor has any specific preferences they can show you.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:18 PM   #11
dalen7
 
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Re: Uchikaiten Sankyo

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
If you're expected to know it for your test then it's entirely reasonable to grab a more senior student or your instructor after class and ask if they have a moment to show you.
True, I have been grabbing them...I did notice that the others were having some issues as well.

It seems that part of the 'problem' is class structure.

The lessons in and of themselves are not conducive for someone who is wanting to test. Some of the movements I have just done for the first time - after months of being there.

Other times we do moves that have nothing to do with my kyu level...which Im grateful for, yet as I mentioned above I had not even learned stuff that I was supposed to know like Udekimenage.

(Got that one now.)

This is not a complaint - a few months ago it bugged the pahooky out of me.
But the fact is, what I have needed has come to me...and this has been a lesson in taking what is available and not resisting life.

One thing is I do not speak Hungarian any where near fluently, so this has a factor in it - as well as the fact that even if I did, not sure how receptive he would be to some ideas...though he does seem open.

I believe he (Sensei) has a hard act to follow, so to speak, in this city. Its a small place where most people quit Aikido after a few months...or just dont start.
(And those that do come are not regular...some are getting more regular...we only practice twice a week by the way.)

Back to class structure...
Personally it has been a lesson for me - taking Aikido in a foreign country where I dont really know the language nor do those I train with know my language.

Had I not researched on my own...well, I would have dropped Aikido for good a long time ago.

This experience has given me some insights and appreciation for the difficulties in running a dojo as well as how to deal with these obstacles.

Again - imagine that in my whole time there (since last May) I was not given a testing requirement list. (I saw a senior student had one and got one from him.)

There is not much structure which is conducive for someone who is actually trying to move through Aikido. In a way I can see this is why it takes the people here 7+ years to get shodan...along with only training twice a week (and some less)

As mentioned, things are working, regardless, so Im getting the info I need...step by step.

Perhaps I may shoot Sensei an email at a later time and suggest some things that may help in the flow of the training sessions - perhaps that is what he needs is some feedback.

At the same time, I sense that he is trying to figure out how to make things run a bit smoother.

We just had a couple of 2nd kyus leave because I suppose they figured Aikido took them as far as it could. (Which Im sure it did...each person has what it is they are expecting out of an art...or anything - and then they move on.) But I suppose he is trying to learn to adapt to see how perhaps he can retain students interest at various levels.

Anyway...enough rambling.

I appreciate all the comments...and trust me, I learn quite a bit from this forum...

Peace

dAlen
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