Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-19-2008, 02:14 PM   #26
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Eric,

codification is done to a certain degree in all martial arts I believe. You do have to establish common core language and communication to ensure transmission.

The big change we went through in the Army combatives program was moving to a more "alive" model of training. That is teach soldiers positional/situational dominance first and foremost prior to individual techniques such as we did with the "fairbairn/sykes" model.

It does not invalidate the techniques taught in the old manuals and certainly those things are a good reference, but upon what base are they built?

There in lay the problem for us in the Army. Fights tend to be dynamic, moving and flowing...yet we were training in a very controlled and static way.

No you can't train every single scenario or every kind of attack, but you can train a base that recognizes most of the major situations you may be in in an empty handed or short range fight.

that is, stending clinch, your up, your opponent is down. You are down your opponent is up. Both of you are on the ground. One of you is on top, the other on the bottom. Grappling over a weapon of some sort. Your opponent is closing the distance to seize the advantage, you are closing the distance to seize the advantage.

Most of the F-S type techniques removed this from the training environment...the most important aspect of the fight.. control of the fight, or loss of control of the fight.

A gun is essentially a long range weapon, they work best if your bullet can reach your opponent, but your opponent cannot reach your weapon. (Duh, common sense I know).

So you have to ask yourself why are you at the range in which the gun is entering a grappling situation. There are many reasons why.

one, might be that you were forced to deploy it at close range because distance was closed due to suprise, failure of another weapon systems or what not.

Another might be that your assailant is attempting to rob you or force you physically to do something.

At that range it gets interesting. I have no answers, but ask yourself why would someone choose to deploy a weapon in grappling range if they don't have to?

Typically there is something else going on in the equation and the environment is not a static one such as "freeze, puts your hands up and give me your wallet". There is movement and force going on that does not stop at the deployment of the weapon or closing of the distance.

I don't know the answers for every scenario, but think for a minute about the deployment of handguns and the reasons for doing so and the ma'ai involved. (I can reach him, but he can't reach me) and the situations that might be involved at hand reach range and what a priori knowledge was known or assumed to be known at what point.

the F-S model basically assumes away much of the fluidity and dynamic that occurs in situations, and that is huge in my book...essentially everything.

Dave Valadez has posted some very good stuff on this from a DT perspective.

I also agree with what Ledyard Sensei says above.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 03:14 PM   #27
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Good points, Kevin.

In general this has been a good discussion of the issue with a recognition of its complications, but Kevin gives the best insight into what happens in the uncontrolled environment - that is, reality.

I would only ask the assembled posters to re-examine how you are training and re-frame how you think the problem will occur. Things will be far closer than people think or most martial arts train, and the defender will usually be operating at a positional and initiative deficit.

Yes, people very much do engage at "grappling" distance with weapons. It is not stupid or an amatuer move at all. It only sounds that way because when the context and the fluid dynamics are removed (including the positional and initiative aspects noted above), it doesn't make sense. Add those things back in and most of your weapon defense/retention is shortcircuited.

Everyday intercourse, including police contacts, are far closer and much more relaxed than the "best practice" example of the training mat (academy, martial arts, what have you) provides. Cops typically only to do that kind of stuff in what are "high risk" events. That is often NOT when these things happen, but rather they suddenly explode during "routine" events.

Even in the high risk environment, if you've ever served a dynamic warrant on a trailer home, or a little rat hole location with a dozen people in it, you'll understand how a trained individual running a long gun can routinely be at contact distance with a bad guy.

Below is an interesting vid from the weapon retention perspective. Now, before you second guess, ask yourself what you would really do, not what you would do KNOWING the guy was about to go for your gun.

http://www.wwmt.com/video/index.php?...tid=1551055723

Last edited by KIT : 05-19-2008 at 03:17 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 03:37 PM   #28
Eric Joyce
Dojo: Budoshingikan
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 179
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Eric,

codification is done to a certain degree in all martial arts I believe. You do have to establish common core language and communication to ensure transmission.

The big change we went through in the Army combatives program was moving to a more "alive" model of training. That is teach soldiers positional/situational dominance first and foremost prior to individual techniques such as we did with the "fairbairn/sykes" model.

It does not invalidate the techniques taught in the old manuals and certainly those things are a good reference, but upon what base are they built?

There in lay the problem for us in the Army. Fights tend to be dynamic, moving and flowing...yet we were training in a very controlled and static way.

No you can't train every single scenario or every kind of attack, but you can train a base that recognizes most of the major situations you may be in in an empty handed or short range fight.

that is, stending clinch, your up, your opponent is down. You are down your opponent is up. Both of you are on the ground. One of you is on top, the other on the bottom. Grappling over a weapon of some sort. Your opponent is closing the distance to seize the advantage, you are closing the distance to seize the advantage.

Most of the F-S type techniques removed this from the training environment...the most important aspect of the fight.. control of the fight, or loss of control of the fight.

A gun is essentially a long range weapon, they work best if your bullet can reach your opponent, but your opponent cannot reach your weapon. (Duh, common sense I know).

So you have to ask yourself why are you at the range in which the gun is entering a grappling situation. There are many reasons why.

one, might be that you were forced to deploy it at close range because distance was closed due to suprise, failure of another weapon systems or what not.

Another might be that your assailant is attempting to rob you or force you physically to do something.

At that range it gets interesting. I have no answers, but ask yourself why would someone choose to deploy a weapon in grappling range if they don't have to?

Typically there is something else going on in the equation and the environment is not a static one such as "freeze, puts your hands up and give me your wallet". There is movement and force going on that does not stop at the deployment of the weapon or closing of the distance.

I don't know the answers for every scenario, but think for a minute about the deployment of handguns and the reasons for doing so and the ma'ai involved. (I can reach him, but he can't reach me) and the situations that might be involved at hand reach range and what a priori knowledge was known or assumed to be known at what point.

the F-S model basically assumes away much of the fluidity and dynamic that occurs in situations, and that is huge in my book...essentially everything.

Dave Valadez has posted some very good stuff on this from a DT perspective.

I also agree with what Ledyard Sensei says above.
I understand now. Thanks Kevin. When I was in Krav, that was one of the things they did teach us that even though these DT are step by step defenses against attacks, they were designed to defend against the most common attacks in the worst situations possible. However, when we did "live training", our instructors would show us how things don't always work in static attacks. There are those other things like movement, noise, adrenaline dump, etc., that come into play. Good thread going here.

So, what are your thoughts on the Army teaching BJJ?

Last edited by Eric Joyce : 05-19-2008 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Added text and mispelling

Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 03:50 PM   #29
Aikibu
Dojo: West Wind Dojo Santa Monica California
Location: Malibu, California
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,295
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
I never know what you're going to say, but it's always a gem!
I think I heard that back when I was a Ranger Private...Granted I have not done any live fire DA & CQB training since the early 90's but I will bet the "tire" house with all the real world experiance most of the guys have now... Common Sense is the be all end all principle.

William Hazen
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 03:51 PM   #30
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Great video!

In principle, things remain the same (weapon/situation/appropriate distance). That range in the video is not ideal for "weapon-out" and it strongly makes the case for high level retention holsters (which still are not as popular as they should be, in my opinion). There's still a lot of folks looking for the "fast" draw instead of training to make a draw smooth from high retention level holsters. So, I'm not so sure it addresses the point of gun grab counters...

For me, this video brings up a better point than "weapons can be grabbed because you can't always get the distance you'd like." For me, this video speaks to a very common thing in combat, a thing that generals have always known about and a thing that traditional martial arts, in my opinion, knows about as well and has attempted to deal with through the maintenance of "zanshin" at the end of a waza. That is: There is a point in an engagement where the "off-guarded" will incorrectly believe there to be a lull in the engagement. This mistake in perception usually places the "lull" at the "conclusion" of something. In reality, this is not when one is the most safe but actually when one is the most in danger - partly because one things him/herself to be the most safe.

The untrained/undisciplined mind wants there to be a lull, wants there to be an "off," and it does this because it is fatiguing and/or leaving a state of wellness. It wants the "on" of combat to be over, and it thus looks for an "end," which is why this lull usually is associated with points of transition (e.g. the sentencing of a court case).

However, the reality of real-life combat is that there is no off. There is only on. Again, most folks want, need, the off because that's how they keep their sanity. Traditional systems of combat have dealt with the mind's wellness through other means, without violating the principle that there is no "off" to combat. They have done this through breathing exercises, sleep discipline, meditation, and honor codes. This is one reason why current training risks a lot whenever it takes these things out (e.g. "Easy to learn" systems of application that look to require a minimum of time and self investment).

Again, thanks for the video link.
d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 04:34 PM   #31
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post

For me, this video brings up a better point than "weapons can be grabbed because you can't always get the distance you'd like." For me, this video speaks to a very common thing in combat, a thing that generals have always known about and a thing that traditional martial arts, in my opinion, knows about as well and has attempted to deal with through the maintenance of "zanshin" at the end of a waza. That is: There is a point in an engagement where the "off-guarded" will incorrectly believe there to be a lull in the engagement. This mistake in perception usually places the "lull" at the "conclusion" of something. In reality, this is not when one is the most safe but actually when one is the most in danger - partly because one things him/herself to be the most safe.

The untrained/undisciplined mind wants there to be a lull, wants there to be an "off," and it does this because it is fatiguing and/or leaving a state of wellness. It wants the "on" of combat to be over, and it thus looks for an "end," which is why this lull usually is associated with points of transition (e.g. the sentencing of a court case).

However, the reality of real-life combat is that there is no off. There is only on. Again, most folks want, need, the off because that's how they keep their sanity. Traditional systems of combat have dealt with the mind's wellness through other means, without violating the principle that there is no "off" to combat. They have done this through breathing exercises, sleep discipline, meditation, and honor codes. This is one reason why current training risks a lot whenever it takes these things out (e.g. "Easy to learn" systems of application that look to require a minimum of time and self investment).

Again, thanks for the video link.
d
I agree in part. You make a good point about the "lulls." Many very serious close range encounters for LEOs begin with a suspect "submittting" to authority, allowing the officer to get close to make an arrest, and ambushing him from there. It is, in fact, commonly practiced among gang members and prisoners. Officers presume the encounter is "over" because the guy seems compliant, and it is all just a way to get him close. It works because the vast majority of the time, when the gives up, he actually gives up!

However, I simply don't believe there is no "off." There is "off" all the time, and has to be. The opposite of that is called hypervigilance. See how well that works for you under highly stressful circumstances.

No one can be "on" all the time. No one maintains complete zanshin, or complete anticipation, at all times. Part of it is complacency (which affects EVERYONE), and part of it is simply attention, or paying attention to the wrong things.

One is the ideal, which of course, many martial and DT systems are based on - the ideal situation, not the worst situation. The other is the reality.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 04:45 PM   #32
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Eric,

Yes Army Combatives has alot to do with BJJ, it really becomes the base of what we do, and frankly most of us that study MACP are associated with BJJ in some way.

That said, it is NOT BJJ and when we teach it in the Army formally any more than say Aikido is Hapkido or Daito Ryu!

The base line sustainment piece is grappling as all hand to hand fights are essentially grappling fights and most involve weapons.

BJJ as well as Sambo, Greco Roman wrestling, Judo, and any other grappling type sports provide good skills to base training in MACP. You simply have to keep the context in mind and learn/relearn some new strategies when you consider things from an Army situation.

One of the challenges we have in the army is increasing the "band of excellence" within the combatives program to get it past the BJJ baseline ground grappling and refining other areas of training. With over 1 million soldiers most of which won't spend much time developing base skills, you are going to spend alot of time on the basic, grappling.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 05:11 PM   #33
Bill Danosky
 
Bill Danosky's Avatar
Dojo: BN Yoshinkan
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 433
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

There seems to be an extremely high incidence of gunfights that take place within 7 feet. And there's a bodyguard rule of thumb to the effect that if it's within two arm's lengths, you take care of it with your hands. These are probably more relevant to police/civilian encounters than military, but I wonder why we're not training more for this kind of situation.

Someone taught me that even if you shoot someone straight through the heart, they have about seven seconds of conciousness to kill you back. So I'm thinking that controlling your opponent's weapon is the best way to increase your survival chances, especially if it's a firearm.

Kit was right (again!) that you can't maintain a state of hypervigilance all the time, and bad things happen if you try. So probably the best you can do is work out the smartest plan B's ahead of time you can. And practice, practice, practice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 06:46 PM   #34
Walter Martindale
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 761
Canada
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
Even if it is not a myth and you do get burned that's better than being shot.

So do people with guns practice how to avoid people trying to take their guns? I would think police must right? What do those techniques look like?

Rob
Izumi sensei's video on the DVD advertised elsewhere on this site has a short supplemental section on pistol retention.
W
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 06:56 PM   #35
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
There seems to be an extremely high incidence of gunfights that take place within 7 feet. And there's a bodyguard rule of thumb to the effect that if it's within two arm's lengths, you take care of it with your hands. These are probably more relevant to police/civilian encounters than military, but I wonder why we're not training more for this kind of situation.

Someone taught me that even if you shoot someone straight through the heart, they have about seven seconds of conciousness to kill you back. So I'm thinking that controlling your opponent's weapon is the best way to increase your survival chances, especially if it's a firearm.

Kit was right (again!) that you can't maintain a state of hypervigilance all the time, and bad things happen if you try. So probably the best you can do is work out the smartest plan B's ahead of time you can. And practice, practice, practice.
Private sector Bodyguard Training:
We do train those scenarios. The problem in going to a commercial bodyguard school is that they do not have the logistical ability to train one-on-one or one-on-two scenarios. There is just not enough time or manpower when you are pumping 30 agents through a one or two week class. But that is the real world sans government support.

The bad guys will know you weaknesses if they have done their homework so you need to strategize in the following terms:
  • They will out gun you
  • They will create diversionary (lethal) attacks to neutralize the bodyguards
  • They will have several evacuation plans

The best answer for mitigating this threat is to catch it in their surveillance phase and avoid it all together. But lacking that, in the reactive phase of an assault on principle, the bodyguard needs to use overwhelming momentum, efficient motion and lethal technique while constantly scanning for the next attack. At the same time, he needs to know where his client is. Two-on-one is obviously a lot easier than one-on-one. You can divide the jobs. The first bodyguard to be attacked becomes the Point man. He also by definition becomes the counter-attacker. The other guy is finds an avenue of escape for the client.

Controlling the Opponent's weapon is a major tactic for me. It is simply part of the "no-sword style". Your sword is my sword, your knife is my knife, your pistol is my pistol, your body is my ballistic armor. Beware the bodyguard who is passionate about his job. He will take several rounds before going down if he has trained his mind and spirit with the proper devotion.

Hypervigilance

I am not sure why we are not using the tried and true Color Code of mental Awareness when talking about this...
I do not think I am in the color white very often. Yet my conscious mind is relaxed and I am not stressed. My atavistic mind is simply aware of risks and threats. There is no burn-out going on here. Yes, you still need to turn off after a good adrenal dump, but best to do that after you are in a totally secure location where others can provide the vigilance.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 08:36 PM   #36
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I am not sure why we are not using the tried and true Color Code of mental Awareness when talking about this...
I do not think I am in the color white very often. Yet my conscious mind is relaxed and I am not stressed. My atavistic mind is simply aware of risks and threats. There is no burn-out going on here. Yes, you still need to turn off after a good adrenal dump, but best to do that after you are in a totally secure location where others can provide the vigilance.
I'm with Chris here.

I think one has to speak for himself - if you need an "off" and you are prone to take it where others might not, that's your business and no reason to believe that there are not others that don't need the off that you do and/or need it when you do. It's something you have to figure out for yourself, how to keep the mind healthy and aware at all times. Some would even say that the mind can only be healthy when it is aware all of the time, that "off" is a kind of dis-ease all of its own nature, not at all related to wellness.

It's not about going out and thinking everyone is going to attack you all of the time, being paranoid, suffering adrenalin dumps to the point of fatigue, one after the other, etc. - all of this is part of the unaware mind that requires lulls, offs, etc. Total awareness, that which is sought in the more traditional martial arts is, in my opinion, a completely different way of relating to the combative experience, as it is a totally different way of relating to the world/universe. One is looking for a calmness, a relaxation, a non-attachment, an acceptance, one that brings about true clarity, a "vision" that is not plagued by the entrapments of the ego (e.g. fear, pride, and ignorance) and thus not burdened by reaction and/or habit and/or the diseases of the mind.

If you hear this, and you say, "Impossible!" - then surely it will be. If you hear this, and you say, "Possible" - then surely you will seek it out. If you seek it out, you have a chance of obtaining it. You got to start there, in my opinion - making it possible.

When I train law enforcement officers, when I'm on the job, etc., I not only judge the outcome of a given encounter, but also the wellness of my mind, how little or how much it is plagued by the diseases of the ego as it is being asked to perform along side my body. For example, it's not enough to just do the technique - one has to maintain control, one has to maintain his breath, one has to keep his environmental awareness, one has to not loose his fine motor skills, etc. When you work with us, if you do the technique, and you "freak" out while doing it, if you show any of the signs of ego-reaction, poor stress management, etc., you did it wrong - period.

For example, look at these techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsPGv1WHIbw

- I'm not judging the author architecturally, and I'm sure this guy can easily pull these moves off on the job, but for us, the way we train, he's failing at their application - made evident in his inability to reconcile the stresses of the attached mind. Here I am talking about holding his breath, shoulder's raising, balance breaking, quick rapid movements - hurried, etc. For us, when we train, these are signs that the technique is not being performed right because the technician is not right in his heart/mind (i.e. unwell).

Now, please note, I'm not just singling out this last video - this critique is on anyone that trains for combat without training in the other things I mentioned earlier. I just got the video from doing a search on youtube.com. Here are more - they are everywhere, it's what's the norm for the most part - the end-result of quick and easy:

Note the stress and tension, and, more importantly, the way it is addressed (or not at all):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWQ5Pbuys2I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOauIiUGtdw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nToJV7_shp8

Compare the mind as it is expressed through the body as it moves when confronting the human universal fear of human-on-human violence in these videos (above) with the mind as it is expressed through this body here (below):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVaT32b3uN0

For me, it is no coincidence that the author in this last video trains in traditional martial arts and looks to demonstrate this level of relaxed/calm/awareness - not just get the move done and over with. (Note: Folks can see the inward/outward spiral counters I mentioned done on this video clip - look closely). The author in this last video can do this stuff all day long. He's trained to be able to - it's obvious. Not so with the authors in the former videos - they need rest, off time, lulls, they are drawn toward complacency, etc. There's a real difference between these two types of training, even though they are seeking the same field of application. There's not just one way of being, of training, of doing the job - with everything else denounced as impossible. There is simply what is common and what is not. Being uncommon, however, is not a sign that something is impractical, it's only a sign that it has nothing to do with mediocrity (which is always marked by the masses, by what is common). What I'm trying to say here is that folks should make room for this type of experience of the combative situation, not outright write it off as "impossible."

Either way, there's more stuff in these videos if folks want to keep talking about gun techniques.

thanks,
dmv

Last edited by senshincenter : 05-19-2008 at 08:45 PM.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 09:12 PM   #37
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Thanks for that David, it tells me a lot.

But if you are touting the "System of Strategy," we are on two different wavelengths, and have very different understandings.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 09:22 PM   #38
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm with Chris here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVaT32b3uN0

For me, it is no coincidence that the author in this last video trains in traditional martial arts and looks to demonstrate this level of relaxed/calm/awareness - not just get the move done and over with. (Note: Folks can see the inward/outward spiral counters I mentioned done on this video clip - look closely). The author in this last video can do this stuff all day long. ....... What I'm trying to say here is that folks should make room for this type of experience of the combative situation, not outright write it off as "impossible."

Either way, there's more stuff in these videos if folks want to keep talking about gun techniques.

thanks,
dmv
Well do tell...
The same end game that I arrived at.
Yanagi / Nami Ryu / Systema
James Williams is definitely smooth.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 09:54 PM   #39
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

I'm not trying to tout anyone or any system in particular - just trying to find examples of this different mind, but in examples of this mind as it is being applied to modern combat experiences. There's lots of examples of this mind from other types of experience.

However, for modern police work, I think anyone that has been exposed to the "unfettered mind" understands its direct relevance to combat. Yet, this is occurring at the same time that more and more folks are trying to shortcut their training. This, in my opinion, by default means this type of mind is not going to be cultivated - solely because this type of mind cannot be cultivated via a shortcut. What is happening then is that fewer and fewer folks are understanding how this mind relates not only to combative awareness but to overall wellness for the combatant him/herself.

I thought this to be very relevant to a bailiff that gets himself in a gun-retention battle for his life while in a courtroom with about four other bailiffs present - more relevant than counters to gun take-aways. Hence, why I brought it up.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 11:23 PM   #40
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

David

Certainly. I have my own thoughts and experiences on how that kind of "mind" applies.

We just apparently think differently about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #41
Bronson
 
Bronson's Avatar
Dojo: Seiwa Dojo and Southside Dojo
Location: Battle Creek & Kalamazoo, MI
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,677
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Below is an interesting vid from the weapon retention perspective. Now, before you second guess, ask yourself what you would really do, not what you would do KNOWING the guy was about to go for your gun.

http://www.wwmt.com/video/index.php?...tid=1551055723
HOLY $()!T!! That's were I live

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 12:26 AM   #42
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

How about these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_XaCJE55hs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zuf71RhRNXc

This is the best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dNNKjhj0t4

Last edited by senshincenter : 05-20-2008 at 12:31 AM.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 12:30 AM   #43
Josh Lerner
 
Josh Lerner's Avatar
Location: Renton, WA
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 80
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

A question for Kit, Kevin, Chris, and anyone else with experience -

To what extent does the question of being aware/being "off" determine how you train? Do you assume that you will always be "on" because you need to be, or do you assume that there are going to be "off" gaps? Does this assumption, one way or the other, affect how you approach your training excercises, either in their design or how you approach them psychologically?

Josh
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 12:33 AM   #44
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
David

Certainly. I have my own thoughts and experiences on how that kind of "mind" applies.

We just apparently think differently about it.
Fair enough. But you got me know - I'd still like to know how you hold that "mind" to apply. If you feel like sharing, I'd be very appreciative.

Thanks,
d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 12:58 AM   #45
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
A question for Kit, Kevin, Chris, and anyone else with experience -

To what extent does the question of being aware/being "off" determine how you train? Do you assume that you will always be "on" because you need to be, or do you assume that there are going to be "off" gaps? Does this assumption, one way or the other, affect how you approach your training excercises, either in their design or how you approach them psychologically?

Josh
For us, everything, EVERYTHING, comes down to awareness.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 09:19 AM   #46
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
A question for Kit, Kevin, Chris, and anyone else with experience -

To what extent does the question of being aware/being "off" determine how you train? Do you assume that you will always be "on" because you need to be, or do you assume that there are going to be "off" gaps? Does this assumption, one way or the other, affect how you approach your training excercises, either in their design or how you approach them psychologically?

Josh
Good question Josh, but probably another thread altogether since this one is gun grabs. Maybe a mod can split it off?

The only thing I assume is that the potential of my being in the wrong part of the OODA cycle is always present, and that I may be fighting at an extreme deficit in terms of initiative, position, skill set, numbers, etc. That affects how I tailor (and train) drills in the force on force component of training. That in turn informs what I feel are baseline touchstones for technical drills, and mindset.

The real test of mindset is when things are not working out, go bad, you are caught unawares, what have you. When everything is going your way its easy to be a "ninja master."
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 09:24 AM   #47
Chris Parkerson
Dojo: Academy of the Martial Arts
Location: ohio
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 740
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
A question for Kit, Kevin, Chris, and anyone else with experience -

To what extent does the question of being aware/being "off" determine how you train? Do you assume that you will always be "on" because you need to be, or do you assume that there are going to be "off" gaps? Does this assumption, one way or the other, affect how you approach your training excercises, either in their design or how you approach them psychologically?

Josh
Training is the first step for police, military and private security. Immersion comes next. Thus the ancient symbol of the "quest".

There is both a proactive and a reactive side to dealing with aggression and its resulting environmental chaos. Training needs to teach us how to relax under the pressure of what might happen as well as if something does happen.

Training is constantly improving because often, the agent is still not ready for the immersion. Still, and Kevin can speak best to this if he is willing, some of today's trained soldiers have a tough time coping with the stress levels that accompany being in Iraq. While some learn to relax and go with the flow (Zen) some get overloaded with their reality and end up with post traumatic stress.
In government and for "for-hire" high risk security, there is a sink-or-swim bottom line.

But for the normal person who has a normal job and a family, I might suggest that training can take you to some pretty high level experiences in managing stress without having to immerse yourself by taking your vacations in Tijuana, Sinaloa or some other dangerous place.

Building Mental Muscle:

Scenario training is imperative. Many shooting schools and martial arts camps are valuable because they have well developed scenarios you can test yourself with. REMCAT is/was (I do not know if they are still around) a great weekend seminar. Their aggression scenarios will seriously challenge the style-conscious martial artist. When confronted with a full contact uke that is padded up in their special costume, you often cannot do what your art has trained you to do. many folks experience an overload because of this. Then, they rebuild your confidence and trust in skills that work under such pressure.

Reactive training

Training must have the feel, sights and sounds of reality.

1. training bats can be bought cheaply. The children's bats that are made of PVD and foam really hurt when you get hit with them. You can still potentially break an arm if you wield it well. You learn to respect the strike and know what kind of sacrifice you are making if you decide to take a hit.

2. Training knives can be the dull aluminum type that bruise you when you get cut or slashed. You can find them with felt attached to the rim so that you can put lipstick on the edges. You will also see where the cuts are made this way. Study where the "triggers" and "switches" are in the body. See if you can cut the opponent's triggers and switches and defend yours. In time, you may develop flow patters that efficiently work these spots in combination for the best results.

If you want to train more aggressively, you can use dowling with pvc insullation placed over it. Cover it with tape so it does not get destroyed. This provides a full bore stabbing tool that does not bend.

3. Ju Jutsu Randori, IMO, should not begin with a bow and face to face confrontation. Try this: Stand erect. The fight begins when your opponent tackles you from the rear.

4. Guns can be airsoft or paintball. But make sure to use eye/face protection.

5. You get the picture. Now raise the bar until your heart rate shows you are near the edge of shutting down. Back it off a tad and keep going. But keep visiting that edge until you are comfortable with it. Oddly enough, it will be harder to hit that heart rate over time.

Guys like Joe Ariola use real knives in their training and they do it at speed. This is an ultimate goal in reality scenario training for me as well. But it takes a mastery of the weapon to keep control of it. When cutting, you lay the side of the knife on the area to be cut. When stabbing, you turn the knife and punch with your knuckles or just let the tip brush the person's clothing.

Here is a simple set of objectives for practicing scenario training:

1. Get rid of the butter flies
2. Trust your weapons
3. Danger - go! means immediately close with the adversary or create a safe distance.
4. Be deliberate and do not back off.
5. Give more than you are taking
6. Use after-action drills that scan for other threatsx after the encounter is over.
7. Find an avenue of escape as you are scanning.
8. Locate a place of safety and call authorities
9. Do not talk about the incident until you are calm enough to think clearly
10. Call your lawyer so he can initiate your pre-aranged crisis management plan.

Most of us will never have to encounter serious aggression. But this kind of training is not just about that. It is about building the processes that help you relax when the "fear of chaos" starts to reveal itself. Over time, you get used to it. The DT instructors in the above scenarios are "in process" as well. Often, they have chosen to work in that field to become better themselves. We all get better over time. James Williams has many years of devoted practice under his belt. I would be willing to bet he does not believe that practice makes perfect. Neither do I. I believe that "perfect practice" makes perfect. That is where his smoothness comes from: time in and perfect practice under escalating stress under a controlled environment.

On the proactive side,

Watch how a young mother learns to protect her newborn child. There is the perfect paradigm for learning to avoid problems. They may begin with a level of stress and worry. In time, they learn to filter out the minor stuff and place their energies in the major stuff.

Finally, here is a simple mantra: I see my fear. I acknowledge it. I will watch it come toward me and pass through me. It will keep going in spite of my doubts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 12:07 PM   #48
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I see my fear. I acknowledge it. I will watch it come toward me and pass through me. It will keep going in spite of my doubts.
Beautiful.

Thanks,
d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 03:55 PM   #49
Kevin Leavitt
 
Kevin Leavitt's Avatar
Dojo: Team Combat USA
Location: Olympia, Washington
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,376
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

Quote:
Josh Lerner wrote: View Post
A question for Kit, Kevin, Chris, and anyone else with experience -

To what extent does the question of being aware/being "off" determine how you train? Do you assume that you will always be "on" because you need to be, or do you assume that there are going to be "off" gaps? Does this assumption, one way or the other, affect how you approach your training excercises, either in their design or how you approach them psychologically?

Josh
It comes with training. It is nothing you don't experience in other aspects of your life.

Think back to when you first began to drive a car how difficult it was to worry about the whole process. You have to steer, clutch, brake, watch 360, check you mirrors, judge distance etc.

Lots of stuff going on and very scarey.

Martial training works the same way I think you begin to learn the process and the signs. OODA is very applicable.

To me, you are always "On", you just learn how to filter the information and respond appropriately based on experience. If you have less experience, then there is more you have to deal with and you are dealing with more stress and being hypervigilant.

You do have to consider complacency too.

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2008, 05:28 PM   #50
senshincenter
 
senshincenter's Avatar
Dojo: Senshin Center
Location: Dojo Address: 193 Turnpike Rd. Santa Barbara, CA.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,471
United_States
Offline
Re: Gungrabs

If folks don't mind, I'd like to tie the thread back together - as I am experiencing it...

You have these set of gun defenses/counters... They are quite common to every system and field of application. They tend to just focus on the "in-range" conditions, and as a result, they make what is hard look easy or foolish (depending upon your level of experience). Additionally, they tend to make what is necessary look irrelevant.

In particular:

You get the technique, kote gaeshi, for example, against a gun. In these combative sequences, you just find yourself standing there and this guy is right in front of you pointing a gun at you. You don't know how you got there or how this person got there - you are both just there. As a result, it appears all you have to work on to survive an attack against a gun is getting off the line of attack quickly and fully and then perform kote-gaeshi in a powerful enough manner.

I say, "bull." I say if you train with this kind of "all you need to do" attitude, your odds are so low in terms of gaining victory that you've left everything pretty much up to chance, and, by default, made your chosen tactics, "last ditch" efforts.

Rather, all the stuff that is left out of these types of training drills is what is really involved with whether or not you can survive this type of encounter or not. The same goes for empty-hand fighting, which one should never assume on the street. It's all this other stuff, stuff like awareness, relating weapons to conditions and conditions to weapons, not needing off times, etc., that first make it so that you probably won't get stuck in these situations, and, second, if you do, don't have your efforts be last ditch efforts.

In other words, you keep the odds in your favor - which is all you can hope for and all you can ever achieve. Doesn't mean you won't get killed/lose, but you got the better chance that you won't.

Thus, in my mind, when you talk about any type of self-defense or urban combat situation, you are by default always going to have to talk about much more than what technique you opted to use. Why? Because the success of the technique opted for is entirely supported by how viable your system of strategy is and how well you are at operating at high levels of awareness.

So, a viable gun defense, for me looks something like this:

1. You are "on" - because you are always "on" - because you have learned how to achieve an "on" that is based in relaxation and groundedness (both physically and spiritually).

2. You sense someone up the road, in front of you. You observe they are walking on a line that is on the same line as yours, "Strange" - you think. You make a choice, based upon a myriad of subjective things (is your family with you, are you armed, are you injured, how far away is your home/car, are the numbers against you in terms of opponents, etc.): Do you just leave - opting to default the "strange" feeling as "not good"? or, Do you test your "strange" feeling - seeing if you are right in your initial assessment?

3. Okay, let's say you wish to assess further - you don't leave. You move your line of travel, slowly, subtly, to observe what the person does in response - as response means "relationship". Whoops - they adjust relevant to your adjustment. That guy is trying to, wishing to, relate to you. There's your confirmation. Something IS amiss and you are being made involved.

4. You start assessing your environment further: where's the sun, where's the grade, where's cover, where's concealment, who else looks to be with this person, where's the escape/retreat route, what is reflecting what (windows, mirrors, cars, etc.), do you see a weapon or a likely place of concealment on the person, is he/she right or left handed, can you sense training in the person - what kind? Etc. Additionally, you start measuring the distance, time, and necessary rhythm it takes to reach that point where your next confirmation is likely to occur (this point, the one I just referred to, is most often the point aikido waza starts from). And you do this all the while you are fully ready to disengage, because the person my be an old friend you don't recognize or someone that just wants to tell you your fly is down - etc.

5. You reach that spot, you've set the time and space up as best you can, according all your previous assessments and observations, and you have decided how you have to adapt according to them. You observe: the guy is reaching for something on his person - you sense "yin" energy - you are getting more clues he's not an old friend, not going to tell you your fly is down, you enter on the yin and pin his arm against his body, he manages still to bring the weapon out of its location - you got a grip on it/hand/wrist.

6a. you do kote-gaeshi - it will probably work - the odds are it will. You disarm him, secure his weapon, seek distance, draw your own weapon, re-assess your environment, try and intimidate the guy into staying prone with you covering him. If he runs away, you let him go. If he comes at you, you shoot him till he drops. You reassess your environment. You can do all this because your “on” stems from a relaxed/non-attached mind.

6b. You lose your grip - do your best to keep a pin - keep him in yin energy, draw your own weapon, take the shot, establish a spiral toward his rear in your path of travel, shoot till he falls, reassess your environment. You can do all this because your “on” stems from a relaxed/non-attached mind.

On this “on” stemming from a relaxed/non-attached mind – look what you can do, and what, out of fear, pride, or ignorance, you “have” to do (i.e. what you cannot do).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J9_Xcs0Tho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB_Hl4bcQNc

dmv

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:46 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2018 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2018 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate