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Old 05-14-2008, 03:28 PM   #51
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

In my life I have studied Judo, Karate and swordsman ship to Yudansha levels under skilled instruction. I studied boxing and boxed under skilled instruction and learned knife fighting skills. Knowing the skill sets required by each art has given me useful knowledge in my 40+ years of Aikido when dealing with persons with similar backgrounds for these arts. I believe if one is serious about their art and making the best of it then one should know what one may be dealing with and develop strategies to do so.

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Old 05-14-2008, 04:53 PM   #52
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
I believe if one is serious about their art and making the best of it then one should know what one may be dealing with and develop strategies to do so.
I've found this as well. However, to be clear, one could easily find methods to deal with certain attacks (e.g. morote gari or boxing jab) within the syllabus of those arts. Imho for the Aikidoka to excel at his knowledge base within Aikido he must find ways to deal with this from the principles embodied within Aikido waza.

Tomiki came across this problem in developing competitive Aikido. When players closed distance to grappling range they often resorted to Judo waza (leg sweeps, sutemi etc.). Although this may have been the easy way to deal with the situation, by implementing rules that disallowed the use of any Judo waza (especially leg sweeps), one was forced to train the body in a different way to use timing, body handling and alignment in a way typical to Aiki waza in order to obtain kuzushi without sacrificing stability. Having done both Judo and Aikido, the differences in application are most interesting and can really test ones understanding of power generation, kuzushi etc. from an Aikido perspective.

Getting back to Hooker Sensei's earlier post regarding the individual's encounter with Sensei Ledyard at Aiki Expo - that person truly believed that Aikidoka needed to adopt tactics from those other arts (e.g. Boxing and BJJ) and mix them into Aikido to be successful against attacks from those arts. I think that this approach will actually take one further away from developing ones Aiki waza and more towards developing a hybrid approach to dealing with certain types of attacks.

Just my 2 cents.
LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
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Old 05-14-2008, 05:38 PM   #53
aikilouis
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

What Larry is expressing is exactly my point.

There is an Aikido way of doing things. When we learn Aikido we are not just looking for a solution to a specific problem, something which could be solved with many different methods (goal oriented approach).

We are most of all learning specific abilities based on sound principles that in the end help us develop ourselves and our range of influence on our environment (process oriented approach).

Learning about what other people or styles practices is fine, but it cannot be our reference, because we cannot do judo better than judoka, karate better than karateka, etc. In the end we would end up playing the opponent's game, being reactive instead of assertive.

When O Sensei developped Aikido he obviously reduced the number of techniques studied, taken from the Daito Ryu repertoire, and he selected the ones that absolutely require to work on body structure and mental dynamics to be efficient. In my opinion he did so because he specifically wanted the practitioners to develop those two principles. I see the same choice with Tomiki sensei's sparring ruleset, because he wanted specific skills to be worked on.

Last edited by aikilouis : 05-14-2008 at 05:45 PM.

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Old 05-14-2008, 06:54 PM   #54
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

And it is fine to work on those skillsets. But the question is 'how do I deal with X'. Well you just answered it, you need to work on that skillset. The best known way is to not just assume the answer is there and keep training aikido, but find out what the move is about (learn it yourself or find a competent practitioner of the move), see how they defend it, see how they set it up, and then look at your art, what is there and what might help in that situation (or to prevent getting in that situation) then test it, wash rinse and repeat.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:59 PM   #55
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

In reference to Larry's post and Ludwig's:

Intent and endstate are important. It would appear that O'Sensei, Tomiki, and all the rest had a particular focus and developed their methodology to be efficient to train this things.

I think as long as we keep that in mind, then there is no issue.

It is when we lose this focus or do not understand it that we start having problems.

Limiting the way you approach randori as Larry points out by restricting Judo waza would be a good thing if you are trying to focus on a particular area.

One should not translate that practice in terms of judo waza though, or judge the effectiveness of either methods of training through the parameter of each waza.

I would tend to agree that taking an adaptive approach (a scholarly term for MMA) could adversely affect the original intent of aikido as Larry points out.

is this good or bad?

I think it depends on your personal goals.

I don't know that I agree with Ludwig's comments on "playing the opponents game"..that is being reactive instead of assertive. Studying the opponents game I think is important if you want to show your opponent that you understand his game and hence can be assertive at his game, and can show him an alternative way of playing the game that he might not have considered.

On principles:

Daily at work I find myself faced with things that violate principles. (I work for the federal government). Daily I find myself having to ignore things that come up that might be raised "out of principle" simply because the investment of time outweighs the potential benefits.

My point is sometimes it is better to focus on long range intent or desired endstate than to worry about principles for the sake of principles.

Some times punching the guy in the face is the best option.

Anyway, I agree with what you guys are saying concerning intent and focus, and it is key that we understand why we are doing what we are doing and not pretend or transfer onto it our own expectations.

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Old 05-14-2008, 08:12 PM   #56
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Really good series of posts, thanks!

Ludwig, thanks for clarifying...I'm with Kevin on this not being an attempt to play the judoka's game, but rather, to understand it. Once that is done, you can dig for the correct principle and application in aikido yourself. And we are in complete agreement as to structure and kokyu.

Best,
Ron

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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:00 PM   #57
Rocky Izumi
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Daily at work I find myself faced with things that violate principles. (I work for the federal government). Daily I find myself having to ignore things that come up that might be raised "out of principle" simply because the investment of time outweighs the potential benefits.

My point is sometimes it is better to focus on long range intent or desired endstate than to worry about principles for the sake of principles.
Aren't you stating one of the principles by which you do your work here, Kevin?

Rock
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Old 05-14-2008, 11:03 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Oh yes...I suppose so!

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Old 05-15-2008, 02:49 AM   #59
Flintstone
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Just an innocent question... do you really think there is a big difference between judo and aikido? I mean, if you come to think of aikido (or judo or whatever) as a set of techniques then the difference stands out; but if you think of it as a set of principals, is the difference that big?

Watching Kyuzo Mifune or Minoru Mochizuki doing judo... they way they flow, it looks like aiki to my untrained eye. It's also my understanding that Mochizuki Sensei said that judo and aikido are one (judo aikido icchi), and the Seifukai guys have a kata with that very name (not sure the kata is original from Yoseikan or their own creation, but very illustrating btw).

What I mean is: is it really wrong to include the so-called "judo waza" in our aikido if done in an "aiki manner"? If when performing irimi nage with aiki timming, intention, deai, maai, etc... I sweep uke's feet, is that aikido, judo, mma? For me, I guess it's still aikido.

Last edited by Flintstone : 05-15-2008 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 06:01 AM   #60
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Yes and no there is a "big" difference. Not so big if you are categorizing it as a "martial art" as an outsider. Both arts wear GIs, both use Japanese terms, many of the techniques are the same.

It is BIG if you take an aikido guy and put him in a judo tourna ment with no judo training!

Vice, if you take the judo guy throw him into an aikido class and expect him to do things the aikido way.

Its like saying there is no big difference between a Dollar Store socket wrench set and a Facom or Snap on Socket set! (Not saying that there is a quality issue between judo and aikido).

On your last paragraph. No it is not wrong to include the so-called Judo Waza, infact done properly in Judo and Aikido I don't think there really should be much discrepancy. It is not about right or wrong but about methodology to train or focus on certain things.

My personal goal is to be "martially proficient". For my path that requires that I have a level of competence in many ranges and pressures of many martial arts and paradigms.

I know others that only want to be aikido proficient and have only studied aikido.

Those guys will always know more about aikido than I and should be the bearers of the art of aikido to ensure it stays intact as an art or methodology...not me!

Martially it is a big world out there and room for all. All of us are going to have a different take on things. It is why a beginner will go with 5 diffferent Yudansha in the dojo and be told 5 different things to do right! None are wrong, but all look at the approach and importance of things slightly differently! That is a different issue though to discuss on training beginners!

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Old 05-15-2008, 07:38 AM   #61
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
Getting back to Hooker Sensei's earlier post regarding the individual's encounter with Sensei Ledyard at Aiki Expo - that person truly believed that Aikidoka needed to adopt tactics from those other arts (e.g. Boxing and BJJ) and mix them into Aikido to be successful against attacks from those arts. I think that this approach will actually take one further away from developing ones Aiki waza and more towards developing a hybrid approach to dealing with certain types of attacks.

Just my 2 cents.
LC
With this I totally agree. Aikido need not be augmented with other arts; I do believe it is holistic in its approach. That not withstanding I also believe it never hurts to know what might be coming at you so you can apply sound Aikido principles in response, and however you gain that knowledge is fine. The sad part is too many people find they can not handle situations they thought they were prepared for.

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Old 05-15-2008, 07:46 AM   #62
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

Quote:
Dennis Hooker wrote: View Post
The sad part is too many people find they can not handle situations they thought they were prepared for.
And this is not exclusive of MT like people. Talking the talk is not walking the walk. You'll find delusional armchair strategists both inside and outside aikido world.
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Old 05-24-2008, 09:07 PM   #63
Enrique Antonio Reyes
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Re: Resistance in Aikido

On the dot there Mr. Cereijo. Unfortunately, in the martial arts world it sometimes spell the difference between life and death.

Iking
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Old 05-25-2008, 09:47 AM   #64
Stefan Stenudd
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No competition

I think it's quite interesting to study other martial arts, though not necessarily for learning how to defeat practitioners of them.
Aikido is mainly done in aikido dojos, with other aikido students. That's difficult enough, and rewarding enough.

I like to see aikido as an art, so I try to focus on it, and try to improve according to the premises given in it.

Still, studying other martial arts is quite interesting. You learn their premises and what they lead to, and that gives tools for developing your own aikido, directly or indirectly.

Stefan Stenudd
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