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Old 05-12-2008, 02:49 PM   #26
mickeygelum
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat?

Ballet is my life,

Mickey
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:56 PM   #27
CSFurious
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

after reading this thread, i came to the most obvious conclusion

let's take 2 Aikido students

one is an accountant who kisses the wife & kids goodbye every morning before he leaves his house in the nice, safe suburbs in his nice car & does accountant-type things before going to Aikido practice maybe on Mondays & Wednesdays for an hour each day (because it is not tax season); if he is real lucky, he gets to go to class every other Saturday for 90 minutes

two is a corrections officer in a maximum-security prison who deals with violent, offenders most of whom would like nothing more then to either kill or seriously maim him on a daily basis; he works 50 or more hours a week because he needs the overtime to pay his mortgage & he trains approximately 5 hours per week in the Aikido dojo

if i had to bet my house on who would be better in a "real-life" situation after 14 years of Aikido training, i think betting on No.2 would be the biggest no-brainer in the history of the world

later
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Old 05-12-2008, 04:58 PM   #28
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I liked Rob Liberti's summary. I think that if anyone wants to take part in this discussion seriously, it's well-past-time to summarize the major questions and arguments and proceed more scientifically. We don't need to reinvent the wheel.
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:21 PM   #29
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

What Paul said. Let anyone who cares, hash it out on the wiki. That's what wiki discussion pages are for.
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:59 PM   #30
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Here's my summary: Go ask your sensei!
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:02 PM   #31
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Here's my summary: Go ask your sensei!
I'd advise against using that as your only solution. What if the guy is doing a snow job and you haven't picked up on it yet? There is no beating getting your butt out there for a little personal experience.

Yes your sensei is a great resource, but it should never be your only resource.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:42 PM   #32
Rocky Izumi
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I used to practice on my Springer Spaniels. Even used to do Kotegaeshi on them when roughhousing. Then, one day, the big Doberman from next door jumped the fence and came into the yard to challenge my breeding pair. When the female snapped at the Doberman's hindquarters and distracted it, the male dove in, grabbed the front paw of the Doberman and rolled. It was a wonderfully executed Kotegaeshi but the Doberman ended up with a broken paw and the male Springer with its jaws around its neck and the female on a hind leg. I was able to call off the male and female and carried the Doberman back to the neighbor's with an apology and warning to keep their dog in their yard or I wouldn't call off the dogs next time. Funny thing, the Doberman would never challenge the Springers again and would run away if they got too close to the common fence. Yeah, Kotegaeshi worked in a street situation. At least for my dogs.

Rock
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Old 05-12-2008, 11:19 PM   #33
rob_liberti
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I have a few other points about this in terms of a wiki article.

1) There is a wiki article about this already:
http://www.aikiweb.com/wiki/Combat

2) What I wrote as a summary is lacking a few crucial points I forgot about.
a) in terms of what I recommended, I forgot to mention that another important point is find someone who has actaully BEEN IN FIGHTS and USED the training method MANY TIMES if at all possible who can help you learn from those experiences (if you are trying to become fighting competent using the skills you are developing).
b) aikido is ill suited for protecting OTHERS. I like it for self defense. In terms of a primal male function in society to protect the family, MMA (powered by Internal skills) is a much better choice.

Also there were some great lines/posts about this. My personal favorites have been:

Quote:
Competitive martial arts have taken off of late, and hardly anyone seems to be knocking on aikido's door for either internal or external material.
- Paul Sanderson-Cimino
(I have been considering making that my tag line some day.)

This retort:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...9&postcount=56

The last line of my post regarding knife techniques when someone is trying to steal your wallet at knife point:
http://aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.p...3&postcount=42

-Rob
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:39 AM   #34
dps
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat?

Ballet is my life,

Mickey
Do toll roads have to pay to fight?

David
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:54 AM   #35
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Do toll roads have to pay to fight?

David
Don't mess with me! I'm a total cycle path!
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Old 05-13-2008, 04:36 AM   #36
philippe willaume
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
What is Aikido...and has anybody else seen two streets really fight?

I am at a loss for words, I must be the only one that has never seen a real street fight, do highways and interstates engage in combat?

Ballet is my life,

Mickey
Well good for you, that being said you do not need to live an adventurous life to be involved in a few scraps.
It seems reasonable to assume that the initial question was directed to the said type of scraps and not really soccer firms at each other or attack by the deadly suburb gang on pcp with optional machetes.

@david
No but you have to pay to see toll road fight.

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-13-2008, 08:22 AM   #37
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Well good for you, that being said you do not need to live an adventurous life to be involved in a few scraps.
It seems reasonable to assume that the initial question was directed to the said type of scraps and not really soccer firms at each other or attack by the deadly suburb gang on pcp with optional machetes.
It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:34 AM   #38
Aikibu
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.
Thanks Mary!!!

It's so funny to me that folks spend so much time wrapped up with answering a BEGINNERS question about if Aikido will work in a "real street fight." Not to dis...respect beginners but I have a few old salty dog Martial Artists in my Dojo and they came to Aikido because they got sick of fighting.

In the old days it seemed to me that Aikido was something you pursued if you wanted to go beyond learning how to fight and was populated by experianced students of other Budo...It promised something "extra" and years later I am glad I stuck around to learn how "not to fight."

William Hazen
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Old 05-13-2008, 10:59 AM   #39
ChrisHein
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post

1st) aikido doesn't work in a fight
- yes it does
- no it doesn't
(continue that for a long while)
I really just about fell out of my chair laughing when I read that! That was one of the best-funniest posts I've read on Aikiweb in a long long time!

Thanks for a good start to my day Rob.

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Old 05-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #40
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Applying aikido to avoid real street fights

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
Yeah, Kotegaeshi worked in a street situation. At least for my dogs.
Funny - I was just thinking about using dogs as an example, when I read this amusing post.
I think about the Dog Whisper, with Cesar Millan, a TV show that I am kind of addicted to. From my way of seeing it, he uses a lot of aikido principles in his encounters with dogs. You know: attitude, extended energy, relaxed mind and body, refusing to accept a challenge, and so on.

In my experience, aikido has been an excellent method to avoid getting into street fights, using that attitude and those principles.
That's indeed much better than getting involved in street fights, even if you win them.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
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Old 05-13-2008, 11:24 AM   #41
Ron Tisdale
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I don't think ANYONE posting here would question the fact that it is in fact better not to be invovled in "street fights". It's almost silly to have to say so.

Sometimes though, stuff happens. On the odd chance that it does, I'd like the aikido I train to have some lessons for that rare situation. But it certainly would not be my prime expectation...kind of just goes in the hopper with all my other unrealistic expectations.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:27 PM   #42
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Sometimes though, stuff happens. On the odd chance that it does, I'd like the aikido I train to have some lessons for that rare situation. But it certainly would not be my prime expectation...kind of just goes in the hopper with all my other unrealistic expectations.
It's just as realistic as wandering around Home Depot, randomly picking up tools and hoping you'll find the right one for some "stuff" and a "rare situation" that you haven't defined. In other words...not realistic at all.

As the old saying has it, "If you don't know where you're going, any road will do."
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Old 05-13-2008, 01:57 PM   #43
Ron Tisdale
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I'm really glad you post here...just gave me a really big smile.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:02 PM   #44
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I don't think ANYONE posting here would question the fact that it is in fact better not to be invovled in "street fights". It's almost silly to have to say so.
Sorry for being almost silly.

What I tried to explain was that training aikido actually decreases the risk of being attacked in the street. I mean that very concretely.
Violent people tend to pick their victims, and aikido makes you less and less one they tend to pick. Like with the dogs. It's a matter of attitude, posture, and all that.

Of course, there's no guarantee. There just isn't. What anyone can do is to decrease the risk - and there are countless ways to do that.
Aikido is one, and it works already on the prior-to-attack situation, so to speak sen-sen-no-sen.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-13-2008, 03:19 PM   #45
Ron Tisdale
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Agreed, and I didn't mean to call you silly...just the idea!

My main instructor tends to speak about percentages once they attack is on...If you move this way, maybe you get 51% and they get 49%...if you move some other way, maybe he gets the better percentage. Once the fight is on, it's kind of a crap shoot...so you might as well take those small increases in the odds, and train to make that happen.

Better than nothing! And I also agree that confidence tends to keep some thugs away. In the wrong enviroment though, I have seen it attract trouble.

Best,
Ron (confident AND humble, that's my motto )

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:04 AM   #46
philippe willaume
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It doesn't seem to me reasonable in the least to assume any such thing.

I had a boss a few jobs back who taught me a valuable lesson that I wish I could convey to each and every single person who asks about "street fights". He was the head of engineering, so we had to go to him whenever we wanted to implement a new feature or product or gizmo or whatever. He'd listen as you enthusiastically described all the stuff that your whatsis would do, nod in all the right places, and then say, "What is the problem you're trying to solve?" And if we couldn't tell him what the purpose of this whatsis was, what problem it was intended to solve...we couldn't build it. Simple as that.

All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.

People are asking if a tool is a good tool, but they can't be bothered to spend thirty seconds to describe the problem that they want this tool to solve. That sounds to me like someone who isn't all that interested in solving a real live actual problem. YMMV.
Hello Mary nice analogy
That being said may be I am a bit thick and my command of English may not be as good as I believe it to be but it is my understanding that he stated the question reasonably clearly.
I mean the original post clearly stated what he wanted to solve.

Quote
How would a beginner aikidoist react to a jab, a right hook, kick, tackles and takedowns or how would you defend yourself if somebody is holding a gun close to you. In other words, I just wanted to know the efficiency and effectively of the art in real life scenarios.
End quote

It may a stupid beginner question but again I believe that there is no stupid questions (and I am working in computer supports where I had to explain pointer to visual C++ programmer and the fact that space is not a numeric value to Cobol programmer).
You may be correct the original poster may be just stirring the top not really interested in the answer (aka TFTP Trolling for Trawling Purposes), but he is not asking how do you do nikkio on someone without hands or how would defeat Bass Rute in a pancrase match.

That being said my initial answer was akin to your sentiment, plus try it in the dodkjo and see where it lead
A possible difference might be that I think any martial art (or martial sport) is a good enough tool for self defence. Provided that you train or test it with active resistance when you train and that you the efficiency is not in intrinsically in the art, it is your understanding of the said art, your per equation of that understanding and the physical aspect and your willingness to do what it takes to win/ intent, (whichever you want to call it)

By understanding of the art I mean something like Ringeck state in 15th century fencing manual
Strike when he strikes; thrust when he thrusts and Schnitt or wrestle when he closes in to wrestle.
What you will do will depend if he is strong or weak in his contact at the sword
The two of those put together will guide you in the technique selection.

As far as intent, I do not mean you need to rip the arm of you opponent and beat him to death with the wet end but more a matter of determination and purpose.

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-14-2008, 06:33 AM   #47
philippe willaume
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
Sorry for being almost silly.

What I tried to explain was that training aikido actually decreases the risk of being attacked in the street. I mean that very concretely.
Violent people tend to pick their victims, and aikido makes you less and less one they tend to pick. Like with the dogs. It's a matter of attitude, posture, and all that.

Of course, there's no guarantee. There just isn't. What anyone can do is to decrease the risk - and there are countless ways to do that.
Aikido is one, and it works already on the prior-to-attack situation, so to speak sen-sen-no-sen.
That confident demeanour is true for any martial arts. Most of self defence course are based on pre-emptive avoidance of places and situation.
That being said and I think this is what Mary is saying in her reply to Ron, is that you need to a have a link between what you do and self defence if you want to use it efficiently for self defence.
In that case you practice the ability to use but not necessarily in what context it can used.

Practicing a fair amount of gross motor skill simple actions usually for a small amount of time each, as you sometime see in self defence seminar is the same you are developing the understanding of the context but not the ability to use.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-14-2008, 08:28 AM   #48
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
And I also agree that confidence tends to keep some thugs away. In the wrong enviroment though, I have seen it attract trouble.
Confidence is not exactly what I talk about. A radiation of confidence can be provocative, sometimes, that is true. What aikido can teach is an attitude where a vicious observer just does not get the idea of attacking - because he is neither provoked, nor does he feel that he could win a fight.

I think that the best prevention is an attitude of calmness, stature, and peace. If I am allowed to talk in ki terms: If you let your own ki just flow away from you, like water from a goose (as we say in Sweden), then the potential attacker will have the same experience when trying to aim at you - his ki flows away, and his aggression slips away.
It is not fool-proof - nothing is. But it works quite well in most situations. I once held off the attack of a vicious gang of some 15-20 very aggressive men that way, but I still regard myself as a beginner of it.

We can learn a lot from the animal kingdom, where very different things from number and muscle are decisive.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-14-2008, 03:19 PM   #49
Ron Tisdale
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

I think I understand what you are talking about Stefan, and have used it myself once in a rather dire situation (running away was not an option).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 05-14-2008, 04:10 PM   #50
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
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Re: applying aikido in real street fights

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
All these people who ask if x martial art is good on "the street" are just the same. They're like people wandering around the Home Depot waving random tools and saying, "Is this a good tool?" Who can answer that? It all depends on what you need to use it for. Want to nail shingles? That hammer will do that just fine, but it'll suck if you need to cut plywood.
If I might be permitted to muck around with another's simile, perhaps I could explain my earlier questions about aikido's functional origins using the same general model. A hammer is not good for cutting plywood, sanding a bench, or texturing a wall. But it's great for pounding in nails. In fact, if you told a bunch of people who had never seen a hammer to pound in some nails, they'd likely eventually develop something that looks a lot like a hammer. They would not create a saw. My question about functional origins, then, could be phrased as: "For what sort of work were tools like kotegaeshi and ikkyo developed?" One could also imagine archaeologists discovering a hammer and trying to figure out what it was for.

Sorry if that was a bit tangential. As for the main question, I do not think most sane modern martial artists focus on "street fights". Some people do have jobs or living situations that put them into violent conflict on a regular basis, and there are training regimens for that: usually involving devices like tasers, pepper spray, guns, batons, partners, and so on.

Someone who is not a cop or something similar should probably not be spending time worrying about some random thug accosting them in a "dark alley".

Now, if you're asking about aikido's martial effectiveness, I think that's more relevant to a modern practitioner -- I believe that's an important part of understanding a martial art.

Last edited by Paul Sanderson-Cimino : 05-14-2008 at 04:24 PM.
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