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Old 05-07-2008, 03:34 PM   #1276
aikilouis
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

So what is your idea ? Should we just give up doing aikido because you assume that there is nothing to learn anymore ?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't value your opinion too much.

To me you are commiting a few important mistakes.
1- You believe that there is not much to find beyond what you saw.

2- The differences that you perceive in the learning methods do not always mean that the essential content is different.

3- You are right to insist that feedback is necessary in the learning process, and sparring is a possible method that can provide it (as Tomiki sensei structured it for example). However, other methods are also valid and efficient. For example, Hikitsuchi sensei always emphasised that practice should be made in a spirit of shinken shobu, which means that the practitionners must put themselves in the proper state of mind to push themselves to improve and eliminate mistakes mercilessly.

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Old 05-07-2008, 03:36 PM   #1277
DH
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Dan, I don't believe that I have ever yaked about "what others don't get and I do". If so, I'd like to have it pointed out to me as I find that highly presumptuous, patronizing, and something that I don't aspire to.

I have enough keeping up with myself, to spend my time judging others.

I look forward to maybe one day working with you as I don't tend to "roll" through Blue and Purple belts and grow bored, so apparently you have much more skill than I, so sounds like I could probably learn a great deal from you.
Kevin
I'm going way back with various comments about the applicable MMA uses for the skills that I have been talking about for years. With you continually doubting and making statements about things as if I couldn't or was unable to understand resistive training. Mark Murray cut and pasted a series of exchanges between us that were quite comical and spoke to the cognitive dissonance well.
With me stating, over and over that this type of training is all about grappling and you repeating a sort of mantra that you can't see its value or the use of static training in anything viable in what you do. It makes a funny read, and spoke to your understanding and also of mine.
As I said recently seeing my name in a post from Don, that went on to include Ki projections and Dillmans name didn't sit well with me.

As for the BJJers and being bored. That's not what I said or meant. I don't want to contribute to more inaccuracies and nonsense even by an accident of misscommunication. I had to be "on my game" when I was rolling with them as they were a handful. What I was "bored" about was what I stated. It was just more wrestling to me. I was bored that I couldn't use strikes, elbows, cross facing, or a myriad of other set-ups I would normally use. It was limited force-on-force sport. I also didn't like their method of positional changes to continually go for things that were obviously not going to work or at least highly improbable. Going a hundred miles an hour to no where still leads you no where. Later I was told they get points for attempts. It's just wasn't my cup of tea. I have rolled with collegiate wrestlers who were better at setting up and following through..
As for full resistance and MMA. All of my posts through the years have always stated support for judo, BJJ and MMA. All of them. I'll say it again. All of them. I have also clearly and definitively stated you can learn these skills, but if you haven't fought, you'll never know how *too* fight. As one fellow asked on E-budo years ago 'Should he stay in aikido, or do Daito ryu to learn aiki."
I told him to "Go find a good Judo dojo, walk in and ask THEM."
He did. And stayed. Just as I thought he would.
To wrap it up, my two recent posts were to get the point across definitively, strongly and hopefully FINALLY that I advocate nothing, if not power that has a very practical and applicable use in any fully resistive combative framework. The net isn't a nice place to talk about breaking bones, knock-outs, dislocations and damage, so I don't bring it up. But, as Mr. Baggins aptly wrote... I have been there and back again.
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:53 PM   #1278
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
The problem with saying that all of Ueshiba's students got a full enough transmission is that they all look very different.
I didn't say all his students have enough transmission; whatever the standards. I don't think different equates to inadequate transmission, for one thing, but I also have to wonder how it is you think Aikido looks so different. I've experienced a little bit of Tomiki Ryu, but enough to see how it's like the heavily Tohei influenced dojo I primarily attend (when i get the time). Externally they look very different, but internally they feel extremely similar. I'm no expert, but that's how it seems to me.

Quote:
In fact, I think that none of them would agree with you that they all got a full transmission
.
I should hope not...particularly when earlier I said I don't think that's likely possible.

Quote:
Most of them say that they couldn't even understand what he was talking about most of the time themselves,
Well he spoke in terms of mystical language, but when you were thrown you felt it. Perhaps even most of what he was able to do was lost, ok, but something useful was transmitted. To me it's as simple as that. And if that is indeed the case then all the better for the cross-exchange of information we're blessed with in the information age.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 05-07-2008, 04:04 PM   #1279
G DiPierro
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
So what is your idea ? Should we just give up doing aikido because you assume that there is nothing to learn anymore ?

Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't value your opinion too much.

To me you are commiting a few important mistakes.
1- You believe that there is not much to find beyond what you saw.

2- The differences that you perceive in the learning methods do not always mean that the essential content is different.

3- You are right to insist that feedback is necessary in the learning process, and sparring is a possible method that can provide it (as Tomiki sensei structured it for example). However, other methods are also valid and efficient. For example, Hikitsuchi sensei always emphasised that practice should be made in a spirit of shinken shobu, which means that the practitionners must put themselves in the proper state of mind to push themselves to improve and eliminate mistakes mercilessly.
Don't worry, I'm not disappointed that you don't value my opinion. That would require that I value your opinion of me. Since I don't know you personally and don't recall having read any thought-provoking posts here from you, I don't. Sorry.

Anyway, you have not accurately characterized my position at all. I have never said that there is nothing more for me to learn in aikido. I have said many times that there are people in aikido with whom I would like to train further in a different format. It's just not worth it for me to go to an aikido seminar where it's not even guaranteed that I will get to to work with teacher hands-on, and even if I do I will just be expected to take fully compliant ukemi for them. At this point, I don't feel that there is much more for me to learn from that method of training.

In the other arts with which I have been involved in since I stopped regularly teaching and training in aikido, I have been able work with master-level instructors in non-fixed-role resistance training scenarios. The fact that that this training does not exist in aikido makes it a virtually useless art for me at this point given the alternatives I have. It's not that there is nothing more to learn, but just that I don't believe that it is possible right now for me to learn much more of value without engaging in certain types of training that are mostly absent from aikido.

Last edited by G DiPierro : 05-07-2008 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 05-07-2008, 07:55 PM   #1280
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan Wrote:

Quote:
'm going way back with various comments about the applicable MMA uses for the skills that I have been talking about for years. With you continually doubting and making statements about things as if I couldn't or was unable to understand resistive training. Mark Murray cut and pasted a series of exchanges between us that were quite comical and spoke to the cognitive dissonance well.
With me stating, over and over that this type of training is all about grappling and you repeating a sort of mantra that you can't see its value or the use of static training in anything viable in what you do. It makes a funny read, and spoke to your understanding and also of mine.
As I said recently seeing my name in a post from Don, that went on to include Ki projections and Dillmans name didn't sit well with me
Yes I did doubt the application of these skills, and to a certain degree, based on priority of training, I would still question the amount of time spent on them as it applies to MMA or "Reality". There are far too many things that go into the mix to say that I would abandon everything for the sake of internal training.

That said, the weekend I spent with Mike Sigman was worthwile, relevant, and educational. I walked away seeing the value of this type of training, and have (and will) incorporate it into my training. In a few weeks I will attend a Aunkai seminar with Rob John.

On Cognitive Dissonance, I am subject to it as much as the next guy. Why would I not be?

Is there anything wrong with doubt or questioning?

I'd have to see the exact clip or post you are referencing in order to reply your comment concerning me stating or claiming that you do not or could not understand resistance training.

Contextually, I assume that it was based on a specific point or conversation that we were debating or discussing. Yes, sometimes we say things that we later look back on and see differently.

I am intrigued that you guys would actually spend the time going back through post and PMing each other on snippets of exchanges between us. Glad I was able to provide you two some entertainment.

I'd be happy to get with you or Mark at anytime to train in a way that might lend to better understanding or communication of these concepts or ideas as they apply to MMA or Non-compliance training.

I am always available in the DC area and will also be at the Aunkai seminar at the end of the month which would be a good forum to work on such things. I plan on spending some time with Rob John (I hope) on this very subject.

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Old 05-07-2008, 08:10 PM   #1281
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Dan,

On BJJ. Okay, I am tracking with what you are saying with BJJ now that you have explained it a little clearer.

I would agree with you on those points.

In my "BJJ" training, many times I will do things that are not tactically sound for good BJJ, but good for "getting back to your feet". BJJ has provided me a good forum to develop a range of things from playing a decent "blue belt" level Guard game, learning various "sport submission", and overall playing the game.

On top of that, I have also developed some skills that allow me to not play that game and to disengage or avoid the game. I focus on this alot these days.

Starting under the mount, side control, turtle in the guard and working on improving postion back to standing, or being able to access weapons.

I suppose I am fortunate being able to spend my time with BJJers that are soldiers. We use BJJ as our base, but don't specifically "roll to the play the game".

Judo is great too. I have my 8 Year old enrolled to begin his base training, so obviously I see great value in it.

However, the same criticisms could be offered toward Judo. I cringe watching guys flying in odd extended positions through the area all to avoid the ippon. Also watching guys turtle up and crawl to the edge of the mat to avoid the pin.

I think the point is to understand the constraints and context of the training and to find the value in it for what it is worth, and train in that art to get out of it what is the strength.

Isn't this what MMA is all about?

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Old 05-08-2008, 08:58 AM   #1282
CNYMike
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
..... Folks start training with all sorts of ideas about what the art is... after substantial time in, they should have a different idea (better informed) of what it really is. The ones who always thought it was about fighting almost inevitably start doing more and more cross training because they can't make Aikido work as a fighting system. Eventually, if they are really serious about fighting, they leave to do something that really is a fighting system ....
I suppose this aproximates my own experience. I'd been training in shito-ryu karate for about a year and a half when I started doing Seidokan Aikido under Sensei Jim Wallace in 1986 (and karate has been the one contant in my training all these years; I still go to the same dojo I did then). I quit Aikido in 1988 because, among other things, I ddn't think it was as "intense" as karate. Maybe that's the wrong, but it seemed that in two years no one had progressed as far as people doing karate for the same amount of time. Of course, anyone who has trained with me and seen how well I do -- or don't --- move would be advised to "consider the source," but the point is it is in line with what you said above.

However, Aikido had got in my blood, and I still had warm and fuzzy feelings for the art. I kept doing the ikkyo, sankyo, and kote gaeshi wrist stretches when I worked out on my own; that's why I have flexible wrists (even if nothing else is). And a couple of times in the late '90s, after I started kali, I would haul out my boken and do the Inosanto 15 count with it. (A lot of drills in kali are designed to be done with several types of weapons, and a two-handed sword grip isn't too far from Dos Manos.)

So when events lead me back to Aikido in 2004, not only had I wanted to come back for some time, but 6 or 7 years of Inosanto Kali had drilled into me a very open-minded approach: "No one art has all the asnwers, but everything has something to offer." Even a Japanese TMA like Aikido can be looked at that way. I do think Aikido has something to do with fighting, but I'd rather let Aikido show me what it is through practice than me impose something. What is it -- joint locks and throws? Timing? Internal energy? I don't know. But I want to find out.

Of course, if someone out there from a straight Aikikai dojo with no cross-training used Aikido to defend himself or herself successfully, who are we to ague? Makes the whole discussion moot.
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:21 PM   #1283
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Chances

As for self-defense, I am convinced that there is no sure thing. No martial art is a guarantee for managing any self-defense situation.

There is only an increase or a decrease in one's chances.
Any martial arts training will increase one's chances in self-defense. So does persistent training - one's chances increase by each year of training whatever martial art.

Of course, it goes for aikido, too.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-08-2008, 03:42 PM   #1284
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

No guarantee, but some methodologies are better than others.

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Old 05-08-2008, 04:04 PM   #1285
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

But just because they are better (would increase percentage faster than another) doesn't mean they are better for me. They might be better for someone else... but maybe I'm ok with whatever better aikido gives me.

Best,
Ron (kind of playing devil's advocate...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 05-08-2008, 08:11 PM   #1286
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

"better" like "quality" is really hard to define sometimes. It is a concept, but really the judgement of such things is usually in the eye of the beholder, based on the criteria he/she establishes for him/herself.

Agreed Ron. It depends on your goals and endstate.

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Old 05-08-2008, 09:57 PM   #1287
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Judgement, opinion

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
really the judgement of such things is usually in the eye of the beholder, based on the criteria he/she establishes for him/herself.
I would say that this is true for just about any judgement

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 05-09-2008, 06:29 AM   #1288
Connor
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Sorry if somebody has this opinion before, but I am new at aikiweb forum and I didn't read all of this post. Some days before I have found a video on youtube, see the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOauIiUGtdw

I would have only one question regarding to the video and the title of this topic:
Why use the police officers and why teach other self defense technic instructors aikido techniques, if "Aikido does not work at all in a fight"?

for example: hijikimeosae, shihonage, uchikaiten sankyo, etc.

I don't mean that aikido has to be like the presented examples because the aikido is not only the techniqe, but here are some examples that aikido techniques can be used in a fight or on the street as well.

Szilárd "Connor" Pál

onlineaikido.com
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:21 PM   #1289
jeffmaley
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I'm only a sixth kyu, so take my opinion for what its worth. That said, from reading and watching others, it seems that technique is less important than reading your opponent. If you know what your opponent is doing and going to do, the response, regardless of the technique, will work, as long as your opponent does not counter-read you or is not significantly more skilled. I would think this applies to any martial art, but Aikido certainly spends a great deal of time on blending with the opponent. While I've not studied bjj or any mma styles, if they spend time on the same thing, they would also be effective. Which one is better? Who cares. The goal is always to neutralize aggression, whether it be redirecting the energy harmlessly (for both attacker and attackee) or beating the crap out of the other guy. It really seems to be a question of personal belief. I appreciate all of the different viewpoints; its what makes this forum so informative!
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:31 PM   #1290
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Not likely to learn Japanese at this late date. Why don't you start another thread and give us your take on the book.
- George
I just learned that I have been wearing egg on my face for a while now! I was complaining about the wrong book. My issue is with a book called "The Secrets of Aikido" I have not even read "The Secret Teachings of Aikido" by the same author (10 years later).

I think he could have come up with a slighly more original name, but otherwise I completely apologize and retract my statements about the book I never read!

Rob
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:29 PM   #1291
KIT
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Szilard Pal wrote: View Post
Sorry if somebody has this opinion before, but I am new at aikiweb forum and I didn't read all of this post. Some days before I have found a video on youtube, see the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOauIiUGtdw

I would have only one question regarding to the video and the title of this topic:
Why use the police officers and why teach other self defense technic instructors aikido techniques, if "Aikido does not work at all in a fight"?

for example: hijikimeosae, shihonage, uchikaiten sankyo, etc.

I don't mean that aikido has to be like the presented examples because the aikido is not only the techniqe, but here are some examples that aikido techniques can be used in a fight or on the street as well.
I hesitate to post this - and please do not take it as a blanket dismissal of aikido or traditional JJ as a source for police tactics - but that video shows exactly the kind of thing that makes veteran officers dimiss their "defensive tactics" training as worthless on the street.

Just because someone is a cop - and a martial artist - doesn't mean they are effective on the street, or even considered as credible authorities or instructors by their fellow officers. I have personally witnessed the latter many times, and it does a great deal of damage to officer's confidence in their defensive tactics programs as a whole.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:53 PM   #1292
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Yes, we gave up training like this in the military about 2001. It dismisses a whole range of dynamics. Not saying that these things don't work...just saying that it is a very narrow and limited view of the spectrum of physical confrontation.

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Old 05-10-2008, 01:23 AM   #1293
KIT
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Now, "sensei ninja," on the other hand.

Kevin, stop reading my mind and posting my thoughts, its very disconcerting...
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Old 05-10-2008, 02:57 AM   #1294
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Welcome to the boards Szilard Pal-
Im in Hungary as well.

All I can say, from what I have seen, is that (at least where I train) we have a more practical approach when it comes to Aikido.

If you know who sensei Imre Marton is, then Im sure you know that no one on the street would mess with him.

Point is, although Aikido shares some common points across the globe amongst practitioners, I think that perhaps in Hungary there is more focus on making it work.

- there is a lot of aikido out there that simply goes through motions, but are missing subtle techniques that just work.

- I will also say if your in a boxing ring that it may not be applicable. But truth is most fights or rumbles the people are not trying to make each other bloody...you get in more trouble that way if you know what I mean

Peace

dAlen

Last edited by dalen7 : 05-10-2008 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 05-10-2008, 03:03 AM   #1295
dalen7
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Kit Leblanc wrote: View Post
Just because someone is a cop - and a martial artist - doesn't mean they are effective on the street,
Im not Hungarian, but I have lived in Hungary for 3 years.
The cultural experience is to long to go into here...but I will say this.

You mess with a police, and that will be the last thing you do...these guys are good at what they do. Aikido/Judo, etc. They WILL nail you.

In fact, same goes with the average security guard.
Hungarians, those whom I have met are quite physical and easily will go into attack mode if they feel threatened...quite different than stateside. (again stories and examples will have to wait...dont want to turn this into a book)

Peace

dAlen
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Old 05-10-2008, 05:51 AM   #1296
Dieter Haffner
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Szilard Pal wrote: View Post
Sorry if somebody has this opinion before, but I am new at aikiweb forum and I didn't read all of this post. Some days before I have found a video on youtube, see the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOauIiUGtdw

I would have only one question regarding to the video and the title of this topic:
Why use the police officers and why teach other self defense technic instructors aikido techniques, if "Aikido does not work at all in a fight"?

for example: hijikimeosae, shihonage, uchikaiten sankyo, etc.

I don't mean that aikido has to be like the presented examples because the aikido is not only the techniqe, but here are some examples that aikido techniques can be used in a fight or on the street as well.
Szilard, welcome to Aikiweb.

The biggest problem people have with aikido effectiveness are not the techniques. The techniques popup in all kind of martial arts (ex: European shionage from the very old days http://aikikaiflanders.be/mushashugy...n/image012.jpg).

The main reason people are bashing aikido for, is the training method. The way we train is not preparing us for a fight. And what I saw in the movie is not different from how we train. So I think the movie is a bad example.
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Old 05-10-2008, 05:52 AM   #1297
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Polizei in Germany are the same way. I think alot has to do with the greater degree of latitude they have with escalation of force than we typically do stateside. That has been my observations.

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Old 05-10-2008, 10:04 AM   #1298
numazu
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

I used to have my doubts about Shorinji Kempo too. I went from Karate to Shorinji and felt as though many people in the class just wouldnt really have what it takes in a situation (not that is the main reason for taking on a martial art - many of them did it for pure enjoyment - very nice bunch of people) so I was picking holes through it and becoming negative, "this doesn't work...that's not practical..." Then I met the teacher and he had a real presence. You could feel it in a block or a grab. He had something there that would very easily take care of me thank you very much. Then I realized alot of it has nothing to do with "style" at all. It comes down to that certain aura or power about a person. It's that something that only develop over time and experience.
I do feel the MMA guys have a point when they say after a couple of years they can take the average karate or Aikido guy out. They probably could but then their skills level off while Aikido and the like are just starting to take off. Aikido takes years of hard work - thats the only downer but in the end it is in your favor. I guess only a person with a bit of maturity can appreciate that. A lot if younger people just dont thave the patience to understand it.
One other thing too, I have never met a person I really disliked in an Aikido dojo. The style attracts gentle people who are looking for an alternative way to protect themselves than being a bute.
The world needs Aikido to keep the balance. Never feel as though you have to defend aikido. It's the other person who has to find the gentle side of themselves first.
p.s. luckily I didnt give up on that class. We used to practice Ukemi on hard wood floors. One day while riding a bike down a hill a car pulled out and I went straight over the handle bars. My body didnt have time to think and I automatically did this perfect Ukemi roll down hill on concrete and didnt hurt a thing!!! - dont ask me to do it again but it's funny how one little part of an art can be all you need - the defining point at a defining moment.
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Old 05-10-2008, 10:10 AM   #1299
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I think he could have come up with a slightly more original name, but otherwise I completely apologize and retract my statements about the book I never read!

Rob
Hi Rob,
I know some authors and it's actually the publishers who pick these idiotic names. The authors are often mortified by the sensational titles but the marketing guys are professionals and know what sells; most of them are far past any embarrassment they might otherwise feel.
- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 03-19-2009, 02:54 AM   #1300
telku
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Re: Aikido does not work at all in a fight.

Ha ha ha, what a great thread. If we are truly talking about Aikido a whole and complete art. well then id like to say to all of those MMA type graplers out there.

TAKE ONE STEP AND YOU WONT HAVE ANY HANDS TO GRAPPLE WITH.

im sorry i know its a bit out of line for a person who practices Aikido but when it comes down to my Katana vs your hands i bet my life i would win.
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