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Old 04-29-2008, 08:17 AM   #76
dps
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
David, so the presumption is that in an organized dojo with rules, that it won't work...(or might not work)....but on the street it will (with no rules)?
No, wrong presumption, on the street if it will.
In an organized dojo you train to make it work in the dojo. . I am not advocating fighting on the street as part of your training.

David
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:18 AM   #77
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

i think that a person trained in Aikido could defend themself, but it would not look much like the Aikido that you practice on a daily or weekly basis
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:36 AM   #78
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

David, went back and read your previous post...I maybe a little confused.

You train in the dojo, to make it work in the dojo?

There for it "might" work on the street?

I train in my dojo to gain skill, timing, and habits that directly translate to habits that carry forward to the street.

the "IF" is the situation on the street...not the skills I learn.

the "IF" in the situation will always be unknown and will differ each time and for each person.

I am not really tracking your logic....probably because I am tired and not seeing it correctly I am sure.

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Old 04-29-2008, 10:17 AM   #79
dps
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
David, went back and read your previous post...I maybe a little confused.

You train in the dojo, to make it work in the dojo?

There for it "might" work on the street?

I train in my dojo to gain skill, timing, and habits that directly translate to habits that carry forward to the street.

the "IF" is the situation on the street...not the skills I learn.

the "IF" in the situation will always be unknown and will differ each time and for each person.

I am not really tracking your logic....probably because I am tired and not seeing it correctly I am sure.
Okay, put another way, you train in a dojo, it works in the dojo, will it work outside the dojo in a real life situation? You will only know for sure when the outside the dojo real life situation happens.

David
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:34 AM   #80
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Okay, put another way, you train in a dojo, it works in the dojo, will it work outside the dojo in a real life situation? You will only know for sure when the outside the dojo real life situation happens.

David
This almost explains that pesky paradox I asked about.LOL

Here's another paradox. I use Aikido everyday "on the street" and it works 99% of the time and yet I very rarely have to resort to violence...

So in essence I have already proven both points... Aikido works in a fight and on the street.

Don Magee's post about violence and rules was one of the best I have ever read on the subject... Which in a sense just add more fuel to the (fire) paradox...If I already use Aikido everyday on the street to resolve conflicts...See what I mean...

For me the Practice of Aikido after years of other Martial Arts and lots of "conflict" was the first experiance I had that Martial Practice actually can resolve conflict as opposed to just another fancy form of violence... not only that.... but Aikido taught me BOTH conflict and violence can lead to harmony with your "enemy" as opposed to just simply destroying him....I just knew at the time I was sick and tired of trying to "win" everyday "against" all the people I had a conflict with...and since conflict occurs thousands of times more often than violence in my everyday life... I have found Aikido very practical to use for both "on the street."

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-29-2008 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:12 PM   #81
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

David wrote:

Quote:
Okay, put another way, you train in a dojo, it works in the dojo, will it work outside the dojo in a real life situation? You will only know for sure when the outside the dojo real life situation happens.
I understand now! No issue, I agree with that. Thanks for clarifying!

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Old 04-30-2008, 12:37 PM   #82
Steve Peters
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
Do you believe you could defend yourself using Aikido?
Yes, I have used it to defend myself. My wife and I went out one evening last fall with her sisters. During the evening a guy bumped into me very hard. I quickly apologized and didn't think anything else of it. A few minutes later, the guy comes back, pounding his fist into his hand to threaten me. I calmly removed my glasses, handed them to my wife, and got into hamni without taking my eyes off of him. About ten seconds later, he melted away into the crowd. I'm certain that without my minimal amount of Aikido training at the time, he would have come at me. By having the awareness and demeanor I got from Aikido, I defended myself.
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:40 AM   #83
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Steve Peters wrote: View Post
Yes, I have used it to defend myself. My wife and I went out one evening last fall with her sisters. During the evening a guy bumped into me very hard. I quickly apologized and didn't think anything else of it. A few minutes later, the guy comes back, pounding his fist into his hand to threaten me. I calmly removed my glasses, handed them to my wife, and got into hamni without taking my eyes off of him. About ten seconds later, he melted away into the crowd. I'm certain that without my minimal amount of Aikido training at the time, he would have come at me. By having the awareness and demeanor I got from Aikido, I defended myself.
Hello Pete
The same can be said from any martial arts, so it is not specific to aikido.
Whether you call it body language, ki projection, aura, a trained martial artist will display that.
Basically by calmly taking your stance, you display to him was that you were ready able, able willing for a scrap, and not that bothered about it either.
And it a very relevant example however the usage of violence, unlike sex or tango, can be a unilateral affair.

I understand Morgan question as is will aikido cut the mustard should we be in those unilateral case. As david as pointed out you will only know if it works when it happens, none the less training is there to give you the tools to help you when it happens.

The technical content of aikido, by that I mean the techniques themselves, does definitely cut it. To convince ourselves if we look, we will find them in on form or another in several martial arts, usually more often in arts where the predicate is that the fight will be asymmetrical.

I think the weakest side of aikido training is the tactical and strategical aspect, which for example MMa/BJJ and to a certain degree weapon practice are quite good at exploring and make it more obvious.
I am not saying that it is not there, it is just that it is not made as obvious as in medieval fencing /wrestling, 16-17th century fencing or BJJ/mma training.

Does not really matter how call it , "access, isolation, control, technique" or "true time and true place" or "striking your oppoenet in the Nach, Vor or Indess", or has you have already heard on the mat, you need to get to the right place before trying to put the technique on, you need to control uke from the start to the beginning.
It all relates to the same thing, but I think I aikido you do need to make the effort to ask your self if it you got where you end up with whatever bit of uke safely? Do we attack the said bit in such way that it is weak and we can use overwhelming power (ki or bio mechanics according to your taste) so that he can not get away (or before he can get away) so that I can achieve my goal (throw, pin, break).
In BJJ or fencing, because the consequences are not too dire, those questions can be asked by your opponent so you can not really escape having to answer them.

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-01-2008, 05:31 AM   #84
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
Hello Pete
The same can be said from any martial arts, so it is not specific to aikido.
Whether you call it body language, ki projection, aura, a trained martial artist will display that.
Basically by calmly taking your stance, you display to him was that you were ready able, able willing for a scrap, and not that bothered about it either.
And it a very relevant example however the usage of violence, unlike sex or tango, can be a unilateral affair.

I understand Morgan question as is will aikido cut the mustard should we be in those unilateral case. As david as pointed out you will only know if it works when it happens, none the less training is there to give you the tools to help you when it happens.

The technical content of aikido, by that I mean the techniques themselves, does definitely cut it. To convince ourselves if we look, we will find them in on form or another in several martial arts, usually more often in arts where the predicate is that the fight will be asymmetrical.

I think the weakest side of aikido training is the tactical and strategical aspect, which for example MMa/BJJ and to a certain degree weapon practice are quite good at exploring and make it more obvious.
I am not saying that it is not there, it is just that it is not made as obvious as in medieval fencing /wrestling, 16-17th century fencing or BJJ/mma training.

Does not really matter how call it , "access, isolation, control, technique" or "true time and true place" or "striking your oppoenet in the Nach, Vor or Indess", or has you have already heard on the mat, you need to get to the right place before trying to put the technique on, you need to control uke from the start to the beginning.
It all relates to the same thing, but I think I aikido you do need to make the effort to ask your self if it you got where you end up with whatever bit of uke safely? Do we attack the said bit in such way that it is weak and we can use overwhelming power (ki or bio mechanics according to your taste) so that he can not get away (or before he can get away) so that I can achieve my goal (throw, pin, break).
In BJJ or fencing, because the consequences are not too dire, those questions can be asked by your opponent so you can not really escape having to answer them.

phil
When you talk of things that exist in Aikido and things which do not. How many Dojos and Senseis are your base fo reference?

One of the things you can learn from AikWeb is the huge variety in the world of Aikido. Any generalization is moot.

Amir
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:35 AM   #85
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
When you talk of things that exist in Aikido and things which do not. How many Dojos and Senseis are your base fo reference?

One of the things you can learn from AikWeb is the huge variety in the world of Aikido. Any generalization is moot.

Amir
hello

Well a reasonable bit in the UK and very moderate world wide plus meeting other martial artists at different medieval martial art seminars, but really Amir, All the threads on such topic can only be about generic tendencies and how people see things.
Otherwise we can have an automatic magic answer to any post, something along the line of "In some clubs it happens, in some other it does not." And leave it there.

I know English is not my first language, but could it possibly be lost on you that I was talking about the level of conceptualisation compared to some other martial arts and not really about being there or not?
I mean I am pretty sure that Ma Ai is talked about and practiced in every aikido club, and like any other martial arts, aikido is ultimately about being at the right place at the right time and I am sure talk about, demonstrated an even worked upon.
However there is a pretty stiff difference between that and systematic rationalisation, and practical application via sparing/active resistance in form work/having your opponent attack you from a proper distance and not using only a passing step as they strike.

Yes some clubs do that second part, some cover part of it but in all honesty we can not say that the vast majority of aikido club actively and consistently do so.
(And whether we think it is a good idea or not, people that are in aikido for the spiritual aspect can definitely live without it)

Phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:00 AM   #86
Esaemann
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Steve,
Thanks for sharing your story. See you at morning class.

Eric
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:13 AM   #87
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Phil wrote:

Quote:
(And whether we think it is a good idea or not, people that are in aikido for the spiritual aspect can definitely live without it)
But can they really?

That is, ignore the "reality" aspects of the art and only practice it conceptuallly?

isn't this the crux of most of the debate? The paradox that spurs the whole "is aikido effective???" question?

At what point do you draw the line in the sand and at what point does it simply become something other than martial?

I don't have the answers to these questions, as that answer I think can be somewhat personal in nature.

I do think that there is a middle road in the spectrum though. On one extreme we can do "mental" aikido, that is reading about it, thinking about it, discussing it.....the other extreme would be performing it in a very dangerous and very martial situation.

My own opinion though is that if you are using aikido as a spiritual practice you cannot ignore the martial aspects of it and simply "do the dance".

It makes you no more "spiritual" by simply attending church and putting money in the offering plate and saying "I checked that block".

Spirituality, I think, requires a little bit more involvement than simply "doing the dance". It requires an sincere investment of yourself at some level that requires you to explore things outside of your comfort zone so you can take in that new experience and grow.

If you are practicing a martial art to obtain grow...then it requires you to...well....be martial.

That said, what "martial" might be, I cannot define exactly, but I know it when I see it!

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Old 05-01-2008, 07:44 AM   #88
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

i would call this an example of self-confidence vs. an example of self-defense

i believe that your training helped you think you could defend yourself which actually may have prevented the attack

they call that a paradox

however, as to whether your minimal aikido training would have actually permitted you to defend yourself had fisticuffs ensued is dubious at best

Quote:
Steve Peters wrote: View Post
Yes, I have used it to defend myself. My wife and I went out one evening last fall with her sisters. During the evening a guy bumped into me very hard. I quickly apologized and didn't think anything else of it. A few minutes later, the guy comes back, pounding his fist into his hand to threaten me. I calmly removed my glasses, handed them to my wife, and got into hamni without taking my eyes off of him. About ten seconds later, he melted away into the crowd. I'm certain that without my minimal amount of Aikido training at the time, he would have come at me. By having the awareness and demeanor I got from Aikido, I defended myself.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:48 AM   #89
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just not true

most students of Aikido are only going to train with one or a handful of instructors on a daily basis for years

therefore, you actually just disproved your point

i agree that there is incredible variety amongst Aikido instructors

unfortunately, most people will train consistently with very few Aikido instructors

Quote:
Amir Krause wrote: View Post
When you talk of things that exist in Aikido and things which do not. How many Dojos and Senseis are your base fo reference?

One of the things you can learn from AikWeb is the huge variety in the world of Aikido. Any generalization is moot.

Amir

Last edited by CSFurious : 05-01-2008 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:48 AM   #90
Amir Krause
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Philippe Willaume wrote: View Post
hello

Well a reasonable bit in the UK and very moderate world wide plus meeting other martial artists at different medieval martial art seminars, but really Amir, All the threads on such topic can only be about generic tendencies and how people see things.
Otherwise we can have an automatic magic answer to any post, something along the line of "In some clubs it happens, in some other it does not." And leave it there.

I know English is not my first language, but could it possibly be lost on you that I was talking about the level of conceptualisation compared to some other martial arts and not really about being there or not?
I mean I am pretty sure that Ma Ai is talked about and practiced in every aikido club, and like any other martial arts, aikido is ultimately about being at the right place at the right time and I am sure talk about, demonstrated an even worked upon.
However there is a pretty stiff difference between that and systematic rationalisation, and practical application via sparing/active resistance in form work/having your opponent attack you from a proper distance and not using only a passing step as they strike.

Yes some clubs do that second part, some cover part of it but in all honesty we can not say that the vast majority of aikido club actively and consistently do so.
(And whether we think it is a good idea or not, people that are in aikido for the spiritual aspect can definitely live without it)

Phil
Phil

I come from a small and different Aikido system: Koridno. This system is more geared towards minimal movements and maximal effect by utilizing very sophisticated hip movement (which takes years on years to internalize).

My Teacher is highly experienced in Judo and Karate, aside from Korindo Aikido. My Sensei believed our locks should stand as well as any JuJutsu style, while we learn to make the Aiki work. Further, he researches the techniques and why should they work, looking at the principles, physics, biomechanics and psychology, and keeps thinking and looking for answers on his own (among other things, by comparing the solution of the different M.A. he teaches), and encourage his students to do the same. My Sensei firmly believes that he teaches both M.A. and S.D. (for some aspects of the latter, the student is invited to stay listen and discuss issues such as safety rules when driving etc.) If we look at your example of the principal of correct location, I recall practicing it for months, each time in a slightly different perspective, and with a different technique, same goes for timing, etc. Trying to improve is a never ending cycle.

I learn in Israel, with western skeptical Israelis who consistently insist on feeling pain and danger to their joints before accepting the inevitable and falling, wishing to be sure this really work. As most felt they wanted to learn S.D. and so had to examine everything from the first day. (In retrospect, this was a mistake, I should have listened to my sensei when he explained correct Ukemi, but non did until BB).

Part of the Korindo Aikido methodological approach is Kyoshu ([PHP]http://www.freewebz.com/aikido/lecture/unit6.htm[/PHP]). We call the typical way we practice it in Israel Randori, but it is not like the common Randori in Aikikai, it is much more similar to light sparring. Depending on level, everything is allowed, as both players attack, evade, counter with technique, and counter the technique. The only behavior discouraged is resisting with pure strength instead of being soft and flowing into a counter.

As such, when I first encountered some Aikikai Aikido Sensei and dojo (almost before getting my Shodan and almost a decade ago), my feeling was one of dismissal. I could see all the "errors" of their way and their techniques. I was certain of our superiority.
Since then, I grew up. By now, I can also appreciate the good things I see in another's practice, and accept the possibility of other methodologies and ways working. Even if I can see lots of holes in almost everything they do, when looking from my perspective. I try to think out of my box, and find the good stuff hiding behind, and the reasons for doing things (at times I think I understand the reasons of the methodology better then the teacher I see explaining a useless technique in practice, but important for realizing some principle).
This new appreciation came as I saw more of the world, I found out there are lots of different schools under the same name all over the world. Some with teachers who do know what they do, and have much experience in other M.A. too. Who knows, some might even be better at teaching S.D. then the one I learn at.

Amir
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:29 AM   #91
philippe willaume
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Phil wrote:

But can they really?

That is, ignore the "reality" aspects of the art and only practice it conceptuallly?

isn't this the crux of most of the debate? The paradox that spurs the whole "is aikido effective???" question?

At what point do you draw the line in the sand and at what point does it simply become something other than martial?

I don't have the answers to these questions, as that answer I think can be somewhat personal in nature.

I do think that there is a middle road in the spectrum though. On one extreme we can do "mental" aikido, that is reading about it, thinking about it, discussing it.....the other extreme would be performing it in a very dangerous and very martial situation.

My own opinion though is that if you are using aikido as a spiritual practice you cannot ignore the martial aspects of it and simply "do the dance".

It makes you no more "spiritual" by simply attending church and putting money in the offering plate and saying "I checked that block".

Spirituality, I think, requires a little bit more involvement than simply "doing the dance". It requires an sincere investment of yourself at some level that requires you to explore things outside of your comfort zone so you can take in that new experience and grow.

If you are practicing a martial art to obtain grow...then it requires you to...well....be martial.

That said, what "martial" might be, I cannot define exactly, but I know it when I see it!
Hello
Well those are good questions?

Personally I would say that practicing aikido for spiritual side without the martial aspect is like saying you are playing piano for the spiritual side then you really only using the black notes or using a rocking horse and say you know how to ride.
So It seems that I am on your length wave, on that one but as you said it is probably personal.
That being said I have met some people that seem perfectly happy like that. The thing is that even when I think that would not work on me, even if I was blindfolded, one hand tied in the back and heated sand in my underpants, there always seems to be something to pick up from what they do….

As far as what is martial well I have seen small sword practice that would put to shame a fair few of longsword exponents.
And by far a small sword is not the martial weapon par excellence

phil

One Ringeck to bring them all and in darkness bind them,
In the Land of Windsor where phlip phlop live.
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Old 05-07-2008, 12:11 AM   #92
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
war has tons of rules, its just that rules are made to be broken. Just like competition has rules, but many will push their limits. I've gotten kneed, kicked, slammed and crossfaced in a judo match. All of that is illegal in judo. I had one opponent try many times to knee me in the balls during the match. War has rules to, and governments do their best to work around or ignore them, just like in sport.
Hello Don,

Thanks for your opinions and sorry for responding so late (been on holiday). Also apologies for bringing this thread back up to the top.

Of all the possible things that can happen in conflict, the only absolute laws are the natural laws of the universe (physics, dynamics etc). Although people may bend or break various rules ordinances and agreements in life, war etc, in competition, if the goal is to win and there are certain conditions defining what winning is, that will be what most people aim for. If someone has a different objective and produces a knife during a Judo competition, would it be considered a win if they successfully stabbed their opponent in the heart? In MMA, if you got a good opening to permanently blind your opponent, that would probably finish the confrontation right? But I doubt you would be considered the winner within the competition context if there is a rule prohibiting the technique you used. However, in the real world, I doubt that that guy would be giving you anymore trouble. That was the point of the Zenya quote.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Training however is a huge difference. In training I would rather 'lose' and protect my partner then hurt him.
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Don Magee wrote: View Post
In competition, I do not try to submit via pain. I try to break their arm/wrist/ankle/whatever.
So do you break people's wrists/etc or not? You said you stop short in training then in competition you go all out to do it? If you have to ‘protect your partner', you must be capable of doing them damage. If you can do it, when you intend to do it, you should be doing it.

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
When I throw in judo competition, I do not try to do the minimum needed to score an ippon, I try to throw my opponent so hard on the ground that he never wants to stand up with me again.
Seriously, blinding him would do the trick, or you could kill him (weapons often make this easier). If you really intend for him never to want to stand up with you again, there are myriad options at your disposal. In the real world, people might follow all kinds of rules but you can't rely on it. Any rule (e.g.: "I will not hit women") in life or competition, distances one from the full, complex reality of conflict. The only rules people are truly bound to obey are the natural laws of the universe.

Regards

Carl
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Old 05-07-2008, 06:29 AM   #93
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Hello Don,

Thanks for your opinions and sorry for responding so late (been on holiday). Also apologies for bringing this thread back up to the top.

Of all the possible things that can happen in conflict, the only absolute laws are the natural laws of the universe (physics, dynamics etc). Although people may bend or break various rules ordinances and agreements in life, war etc, in competition, if the goal is to win and there are certain conditions defining what winning is, that will be what most people aim for. If someone has a different objective and produces a knife during a Judo competition, would it be considered a win if they successfully stabbed their opponent in the heart? In MMA, if you got a good opening to permanently blind your opponent, that would probably finish the confrontation right? But I doubt you would be considered the winner within the competition context if there is a rule prohibiting the technique you used. However, in the real world, I doubt that that guy would be giving you anymore trouble. That was the point of the Zenya quote.
There are more rules in in life then you would recognize. I've seen bar fights were people jumped in because one of the guys 'was not fighting fair'. Simply put their are moral, legal, and ethical limits that people will go to when put to the test. For example, if a drunk took a swing at me in a bar, I'm not going to blind him, break both his legs and rip off his testicles. If I did, I'd be serving jail time. If I restrained him or kept the distance until the bouncers came, I would most likely be let free. While it is possible to ignore these 'rules', doing so usually ends badly for all parties involved. So I agree you need to be aware that anything can happen (which I said in my previous post), but the concept of rules not reflecting reality is flawed. Mostly competition employs rules to focus on a subset of what is possible in unarmed combat. Judo for example focuses it's rules on throwing. BJJ on ground positional control/dominance, Kickboxing on effective punching and kicking, etc. MMA's goal was to unify these different arts into a platform that can reflect unarmed combat as closely as possible. Rules were few and in some case did not stretch beyond no weapons. I'll get more into this in a bit.
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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
So do you break people's wrists/etc or not? You said you stop short in training then in competition you go all out to do it? If you have to ‘protect your partner', you must be capable of doing them damage. If you can do it, when you intend to do it, you should be doing it.
I do my best to attempt to break their wrists/arms/legs/ankles/tear ligaments etc. I have to ask if you have competition experience in submission grappling? Being able to do something, and having that actually happen are really two different things. If there was no ref, then yes, they would have broken bones, torn ligaments, etc. There is really no question here. In competition it is not my job to worry about, care for, or have any regard for my opponent. That is a job for my opponent and the ref. My job is to do everything I can get away with inside the construct of the match. Those of us who are honorable will not break the rules, those who are not will try their best to get away with breaking the rules. I do feel you should be ready for someone to try to eye gouge you in a judo match. It could happen. But the rules say not to do it, so you should respect that.

Going back to the point of breaking bones. I will try to point out the duality of training and competition. If you compete in submission grappling, this should be obvious. In training, while sparing, if I secured an armbar, I would slowly increase the pressure with my hips until my partner taps out or I feel he is in danger of the capsule in his arm breaking, at which point I will release the lock and act like it never happened, transitioning to another position. This is a slow process where I give my partner time to tap out. I might not even hip in right away, choosing to give him time to realize the danger and attempt a defense.

This is stark contrast to competition. In competition, If I secured that same armbar, I would drive my hips up and pull down on his arm as fast and as hard as I possibly can. It is not my job to protect him, it is his job to tap and the refs job to make sure I don't break his arm in the time between when he starts tapping and when the ref tells me to stop. Even more so, it is the job of that ref to stop the guy who can tough it out and is on the verge of a broken arm. This gets even more serious with leg attacks which can actually cause little or no pain until your knee is already ruined. If I armbar you and you grunt out the pain for a few seconds, you will probably be fine (even if I am really trying to break it). If I heel hook you and you wait a second or two while feeling pain, you are probably looking at a huge recover time, rehab, and maybe knee surgery.

Finally, the human body is much more resilient then martial artists believe. I've seen a kid with his arm bent back so far it was buldging, purple, and I was 100% sure he had it snapped in two. He was back next month fighting again. The guy armbaring him had a personal issue with him and really wanted to break his arm. I'd go as far as to say he hated him.

So being able to do something and even intending to do it will not always make it so. I have used a wrist lock in one bjj match where I drove the full force of my body weight down on the wrist bending it backwards. The guy tapped, the ref stopped it and he was fine. Another few seconds and who knows what would happen. I would never dream of dumping my weight on a training partners wrist like that, I would do it in a slow controlled manner or not at all.

The same is true in judo. When I throw a training partner, I try to reduce his fall by pulling up on his arm, in randori I try my best not to land on him and to stay away from slamming him if possible. In competition, I try to slam, I try to land on them (in case it's not ippon I can go right to pins/submissions) and I would never try to reduce the impact, in fact I try to increase it. I want to throw him as hard as possible AND land with the full force of my body weight on his ribcage. This way I am in position to win by pin if I did not score the win.

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Seriously, blinding him would do the trick, or you could kill him (weapons often make this easier). If you really intend for him never to want to stand up with you again, there are myriad options at your disposal. In the real world, people might follow all kinds of rules but you can't rely on it. Any rule (e.g.: "I will not hit women") in life or competition, distances one from the full, complex reality of conflict. The only rules people are truly bound to obey are the natural laws of the universe.

Regards

Carl
I feel well have to disagree on rules. However, I would like to touch on the blinding. These techniques fall into the 'deadly' category. Most if not all of these techniques were allowed in MMA at one time. Guys were known for huge amounts of groin punches, fish hooking, etc. Some were even eye gouged (like Yuki Nakai). What was found was while these techniques have some merit. They were best employed by fighters who were already going to win without them due to better positional dominance and technique. AKA, all the eye gouging in the world is not going to help you beat Fedor, unless your grappling and striking are already on par with Fedor. So they were removed so that the fights could focus on the part that matters and effects the outcome.

The main goal of MMA being a system of competition that reflects unarmed one on one combat as closely as possible. And in that history, injuries have been few. Think about how many people get armbared in MMA from the beginning. Now know that the purpose of an armbar is to break your arm. Now think of all the black belt BJJ fighters that have gracied the sport of MMA. These guys are experts in armbars. How many broken arms have their been in the sport. I can only think of two or three that I have seen. I have seen well over 500 fights, probably over 1000, maybe higher. When these breaks do happen (Mir and Silvia for example) the fight is stopped and the person who broke the arm is the winner. So knowing that the break will win you the fight (and thousands of dallors) that would make it your goal. Yet it is so hard to do that most submissions attempts are exactly that, attempts.

Why do I go back to the armbar? Well because it supports my position so well. It's goal is to break your arm. It is not pain compliance. Yet breaking the human body is such a task that it rarely succeeds in competition. Knowing that, you opponent will be willing to tough out the pain that non-competitors would be so sure is their arm breaking. So if you applied the armbar without the intent of breaking the arm, your opponent would surely escape.

I got a meeting now, so I have to run, I'll leave you with my long winded babbling.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 05-08-2008, 12:47 AM   #94
Carl Thompson
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'll leave you with my long winded babbling.
That was a good post and you have my thanks for taking the time to write it.

I'm not claiming any expertise in MMA or anything, so if I incorrectly interpreted what you are doing, I would be grateful if you put me right. My curiosity is from an intellectual standpoint. I realise rules and agreements are "part of the real world", but that is just it -- they are only "part" of it -- not the whole. So I'll even agree that the situation described in the Kunii Zenya quote is a very real "part" of real conflict (in which one is limited to striking certain areas -- it could happen). As you said, Kickboxing develops good kicking and punching skills, but that is not all you can do (or have done to you) in conflict. If you practiced a competitive art in which wrist slaps were the only permitted form of attack, you would still be practicing a facet of real combat that might develop skills and reflexes that transfer into other, less limited combat arenas. However, it would not represent all options. Basically, what I'm saying is that the competition element is still only part of training -- you might take the competition element damned close to all out gladiatorial combat, but all these factors you are describing -- refs stopping things, not wanting to go to jail, are not guaranteed in the real world.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Finally, the human body is much more resilient then martial artists believe. I've seen a kid with his arm bent back so far it was buldging, purple, and I was 100% sure he had it snapped in two. He was back next month fighting again. The guy armbaring him had a personal issue with him and really wanted to break his arm. I'd go as far as to say he hated him.
Which human bodies are we talking about? There's an old lady sitting not too far from my desk. Is she included? Because if I intended to snap her wrist I'm pretty sure it would go like a dry twig, even without training. If I had the connections, I could maybe even get a few mates to help soften her up first and heck, if the intention is focused on the task of breaking the bone, the simplest way for some might be just to take the whole hand off with a machete. This is the real world and thankfully, in my case I am not inclined to do any of this, but that is just me and the average Joe. If we only train for people who are constrained by rules (moral, legal, permitted technique or otherwise), how does that represent the full reality of conflict?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
So being able to do something and even intending to do it will not always make it so.
Of course, but if your training is intended to get as close to that something as possible, your success rate should improve. Competition is part of training. It is a way of developing and testing certain skills that may apply to the infinite scope of the real world, just like other forms of conflict management training which by necessity, preclude competition.

Regards

Carl
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Old 05-08-2008, 04:34 AM   #95
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

I agree. Good Post Don and Carl.

Competitive Training is very good for developing certain physical skills that are useful in reality. The level of non-compliance and the rules make for a fairly safe environment where one can apply what they know against someone that is equally (or close) skilled. It allows us to develop or keep an edge physcially.

More importantly, I think, competition breeds and conditions a mental skill. There is a certain toughness that is required of warriors that can really only be developed through a stress model. The willlingess to fight is important to warriors. Competitive models help develop and sustain this.

Competitive models are not complete as Carl points out. and Yes, you do need to spend time in other areas of conflict resolution and develop skill sets that address the more complete range of fighting and conflict if you want a more complete devleopment for reality....

...whatever your particular "Reality" may be.

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