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Old 03-05-2008, 09:56 AM   #51
Aikibu
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Thanks Anthony. A very valuble two cents if you ask me.

William Hazen
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Old 03-05-2008, 05:03 PM   #52
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Anthony...

The intent of this thread was not to debate if aikido works or doesn't work in a real fight....we have plenty of that conversation on other such threads. It is one of my favorite ones.

The only reason I bring this up as it tends to be a huge emotional issue for many and I hate it when that argument clouds the conversation when people are trying to get information on other training methodologies outside of aikido such as Modern Army Combatives.

I think though, that it is good to discuss training methodolgy as it applies to jobs such as yours here and how you go develop and execute integrated training strategies.

Kit, for example, talks at length about this.

Anyway, I am curious how you integrate the training into your situation.

I do a myriad of things for my own personal training, but change it up quite a bit when conducting training for soldiers. Integrating training under duress and using a stress induction model is key I think...something that we don't do much in a traditional dojo.

Anyway, I don't want people to lose sight of the discussion of this thread and start debating aikido and it's relevancy.

Good discussion though on how you use it in your daily life!

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Old 03-06-2008, 08:30 AM   #53
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post

Kit, for example, talks at length about this...
Thanks for the nod....er, I think?

Anthony makes some good points. LE will go hand to hand far more than a battlefield soldier will...

Yet when he most needs it, as a number of AARs have shown, that soldier at close quarters on a battlefield will be thanking his lucky stars that he has been drilled in effective, pressure tested combatives.

Same with LE - they will rarely pull a trigger - but when they do, they are better off with combat proven mindset and initiative that is more akin to the soldier than the defensive mindset of the citizen armed for self defense.

How we train should be answered first and foremost by asking what we are training for.

From the LE, military, or self defense standpoint, traditional martial arts or combat sports cannot fully provide the answers. There is a strong tendency for us to have a "favorite" martial art, and make arguments that define "self defense" or "combat" that fit the parameters of our particular art (or what we are particularly good at)but when we get to specifics is when the argument falls apart.

Combatives is malleable, so specific problems and elements can be addressed directly, trends can be observed and addressed, all isolating the fundamental engagement factors that the end users need rather than having to go through a "system," much less a "tradition" that may or may not address them, and may do so in a roundabout or theoretical way versus direct application. Soldiers, cops, and citizens need direct application.

I've got more, but no time now...
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Old 03-07-2008, 12:41 AM   #54
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Escalation of Force criteria has become very important to the military in the last few years. We have proven our ability to dominate. You don't win the hearts and minds of people with a poor, unskilled, or undeveloped EoF policy or training.

This is something that we are learning.

Combatives is a integral part of training that spectrum.

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Old 03-07-2008, 06:04 AM   #55
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Escalation of Force criteria has become very important to the military in the last few years. We have proven our ability to dominate. You don't win the hearts and minds of people with a poor, unskilled, or undeveloped EoF policy or training. This is something that we are learning. Combatives is a integral part of training that spectrum.
Yep, I have noticed that now there is so much police, other-than-combat, and politically-correct-humanitarian duties, the levels of escalation needs to better define the appropriate response to the appropriate stimulus.

And while our people are figuring it out, I hope they don't get shot down. With less training, they are being required to make more discernment under greater media coverage and public criticism.

Glad I was in during simpler days.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:24 AM   #56
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Wave of the Future

Guys

I think it's the wave of the future.

While strictly LE myself, I work alongside and train with soldiers and Feds and in the tactical realm we are seeing a convergence -- not only of personnel (soldiers whose "real job" is police work) -- but the military is being held to a "higher" standard in terms of use of force due to the changing nature of their operations.

That it is problematic for reasons Lynn alludes to is without question, as it still is with "Force Continuums" in LE.

Its not just the battlefield and rules of engagement being redefined, but with 4GW and now 5GW being discussed, there are more equivalents with "high risk" LE operations than with traditional "beat cop" police work.

I've watched some documentary footage of house clearing in Iraq and except for basically the color of the gear and uniforms, what was happening was almost identical to a police SWAT operation -- and I recently read a piece discussing the active shooter phenomenon as a potential application of 5GW -- then we read about yesterday's shootings in Israel and the point is driven home. I discussed a recent shooting in our area with an Israeli counter terrorist operator and trainer and he specifically equated the active shooter/hostage taker mindset with the terrorist mindset.

To my way of thinking, this convergence increasingly brings budo/bujutsu teachings foreward. Let alone in terms of physical technique, but the deeper lessons involving fighting spirit, initiative, maai, and combative psychology, especially mushin and fudoshin.I think this is a positive thing.

While not a proponent of teaching traditional MA to LE or military as a primary combative preparation, other than in specifically adapted parts, I do see a role for them in terms of "graduate" level work.

That a man is a highly trained traditional martial artist has next to no bearing on his performance under duress in force on force training, let alone real world performance, despite any alleged battlefield lineage his system may have.

But take that same man and season him through both realistic training and repeated, successful real world application and you have not only the makings of a formidable fighting man, you have one who is hopefully deeply ingraining important teachings at a visceral level that allow him to not only transcend life and death when in action, but increasingly divorce negative emotion from that action.

Several discussions on the forums recently have been very instructive. Whether the topic is the practical use of budo in modern times being denied by senior practitioners, or that teaching classical concepts to modern military and LE is evidence of "loving violence" and glorifying killing.

Then there are the frequently revisited threads about "what is a warrior?" (if you gotta ask, trust me, you ain't one), or those who do budo as a wholesome physical or spiritual discipline seeming to want to define it that way and answer the question for everyone else, and if that's good enough for them, it should be good enough for everyone else.

Certainly the track record of Japanese budoka alone proves that budo has been and still can be just as perversely, and intentionally senselessly violent as our extremist Islamic friends are today. Hopefully those legitimate budoka who actually are teaching our modern armed professionals aren't of that ilk. Though I am sure some of them are, that is not what practically applied budo can and should be.

Hopefully, especially if you are a professional, i.e. a soldier or LE that does have to go into harm's way and make life and death decisions, or much more commonly make simple decisions about using force that are either justified, or are overstepping the bounds because of "fear biting," or worse, are abuse, "just because you can," you are able to apply budo in a way that ensures that only those who need killing get killed, only those who need beating get beat, and that you are doing so with a clear mind not clouded by emotion or overwhelming and blinding fear. That, to me, is where budo has its modern application. I think the earliest founders of classical martial arts, those who weren't lovers of violence for its own sake, had this in mind.

Great thread.
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:41 AM   #57
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Well said Kit. Great post.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-07-2008, 11:35 AM   #58
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

This may be a bit of a reach but to further reinforce Kit's post (in a sense anyway). DARPA and DOD have developed a number a of highly effective Non Lethal Weapons Systems including a Non Lethal Laser that was profiled on last Sunday's 60 Minutes...The only resistance to thier immediate deployment is that D.O.D. does not like weapons systems that don't actually KILL the enemy...

Again I know I am reaching here but it's seems the spirit of Budo/Aikido may be reaching into the hearts and minds of more than just Budo/Aikidoka.

One can only hope.

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 03-07-2008 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 03-07-2008, 12:12 PM   #59
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

The Dazzler didn't go over well either from what I understand. I am not an expert nor do I know much about employment of NLWs, so I won't comment.

Anyway, awesome post Kit! I have nothing to add.

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Old 03-07-2008, 01:31 PM   #60
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Damn I wish I didn't have to go to the "zoo" tonight! Anyway, when I get home tonight, I will elaborate a bit more in my experiences when dealing with violent individuals. Keep in mind, we are NOT armed with anything, so I think it might be an interesting read. Y'all have a great day!
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Old 03-07-2008, 01:36 PM   #61
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
This may be a bit of a reach but to further reinforce Kit's post (in a sense anyway). DARPA and DOD have developed a number a of highly effective Non Lethal Weapons Systems including a Non Lethal Laser that was profiled on last Sunday's 60 Minutes...The only resistance to thier immediate deployment is that D.O.D. does not like weapons systems that don't actually KILL the enemy...

Again I know I am reaching here but it's seems the spirit of Budo/Aikido may be reaching into the hearts and minds of more than just Budo/Aikidoka.

One can only hope.

William Hazen
I think it goes even deeper - to how we do business even when killing is the business. "Collateral Damage" is increasingly unacceptable, and does not win friends.

That is going to require not only the Less Lethal options you both have noted, but a more surgical approach when lethal options are warranted and necessary - and, a combination of approaches when circumstances may involve both. Counter terrorism, hostage rescue, and OOTW demand such flexibility. With the convergence of LE and military that I noted above, LE is having to ramp up in facing up to the reality of certain situations, seeing it legitimately as a "combat" situation, and the military is having to ramp down and not treat everything as if it is "combat." The contractor community has been a perfect example of what that means, the infamous Blackwater incident demonstrating it.

Still, the reality is some people need to get dead sooner rather than later, and anything other than absolute and unquestionable surrender - and in counter terrorism terms even then its not a guarantee - should mean a bullet to the head. We have to be able to reasonably assess when to throw Less Lethal out the window and simply go for the throat, and not penalize those that do so, provided it was reasonable.

This does occur even in an LE setting, and though it is quite rare officers, especially tactical officers, need to prepare for it. Counter terrorism is one realm that American LE is really starting to address for that very reason - it will require a different mindset and approach than LE is normally trained or even selected for, or that the public may be willing to accept in their law enforcers (until enough people get killed by active shooters (seems to be a weekly occurrance now), we start having terrorist bombings, or what have you.)

I think serious study of martial disciplines, with an emphasis on mindset aspects, can serve as a bridging mechanism in terms of training that conventional combatives, which tends to focus on hands-on applications, does not typically offer. Mindset training is often a perfunctory lecture before a combatives class, or is addressed in debriefs of Officer Involved Shooting incidents, but it needs to take a more central role if the officers of the next generation are going to be able to protect, as well as serve.

I think it would improve use of force decision making, lessen the "fear biting" that a lot of conventional LE training instills unintentionally, and improve officer safety.

Last edited by KIT : 03-07-2008 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:12 PM   #62
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. Work has been brutal. Anyway, I was going to discuss how Aikido/Jutsu has helped in an environment such as mine.

Imagine if you will, that you are in a 100 percent criminal environment. The gate behind you slams shut, you have to walk to your post with no weapons with 2000 inmates around you in some fashion. You are locked in there with them. If something happens, theres no where to go. If you're lucky, you might be issued a can of O.C. spray as a defense measure. But this has it's draw backs. You have to pop a little seal that is used to determine if you used the gas in an indiscriminate manner. Then you have to fight to get the can out of the pouch. Aim it at said target. Flip up the little safety, and push the button to release the gas. If you do gas an inmate, the paper work is aggravating at best.

So, you're on your way to your post. You arrive untouched. You are having a pretty good night, when all of a sudden you get the call to report to the dress out room. You are on the cell extraction team, and you are the #2 man on the team, which includes 4 more individuals. As the #2 man, it is your job to control the arms so handcuffs can be applied. So, you are briefed about the situation. There is an inmate in a confinement cell that has broken a sprinkler head and has a shank (prison term for homemade knife) stating he will kill anyone that enters the cell, and if he gets past all of us, his word is bond.

While we dress in riot gear, some of it impedes our mobility in tight spaces. So, we are forced to dispose some of it in order to accomplish our assigned tasks.

The door rolls open upon the command of the Capt. and we enter..

Earlier in the year, you had to attend Inservice Training. A 40 hour class of B.S. Most of it had to do with so called "rights" of those who would aim to kill you. You also have to qualify with rifles, pistols, and shotguns (I highly enjoy this. Almost to the point of being arrogant ). Finally you reach the day everyone hates, including the instructors. DEFENSIVE TACTICS.

Why is it hated so much? Several reason exist. Most of it is due to individuals that are "afraid it's going to hurt". Well duh! It's supposed to. Anyway, There are some of us who attend the class that would rather just sit out, but are forced to participate to cover the state's butt. Some of us are Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Jiu Jitsu, and Krav Maga practitioners. We sit there and laugh at some of the techniques being taught, because they either depend on the inmates cooperation, or are too complicated for someone to learn in just an 8 hour session. Some of us have been in the service as well and tend to pffft at it.

We are "taught" this crap in order for the state to say that we were taught the accepted way of dealing with a violent individuals and to place the blame of an inmate being hurt squarely on our shoulders if any of the techniques are deviated from. You know, the whole liability thing. If anyone thinks Aikido is a watered down version of Daito Ryu, than our defensive tactics are a watered down version of Aikido. Joint manipulation is a no no unless the inmate is fighting. And then if you do break something, you will be talking to prison inspectors, the F.B.I., and possibly be taken to court. Never mind the inmate has a weapon (in prison, unlike the street, any and everything can be used as a weapon).

We enter the cell. I am the #2 man, and the inmate has a shank. I am in the mindset were I am not thinking of anything. My mind is clear. I notice were the inmate is standing. I notice what hand he has the shank in. I notice how he is holding it. I also notice were my team members are in relation to myself and the inmate. As the #2 man, I will be the first to engage the inmate. The inmate is standing there with his shank in a downward stabbing stance. I throw all the state crap out the window, because now we have entered the gray area. Life and death. His shank is capable of penetrating our body armor. Or at the very least, the neck and groin area. I use a punch to the jaw as a means to distract. I then go for a Sankyo. Once I have total control of the arm that has the weapon, I proceed to take a slight step behind him and bring him to the ground. I then transition the Sankyo into a Shihonage in a split second as he is face down and I am on my knees. However I don't pin his hand to his back, I keep his arm straight up, elbow away from me ( his right arm) and cross my left arm through the back of his arm gripping my right forearm and with my right hand, force his wrist forward while keeping his shoulder locked as I am slightly leaning forward. Making sure the knife point is away from me. Once he has let go of the weapon, I can then go back to the typical Shihonage so he can be cuffed.

Now, none of this is taught in D.T. I don't know why, as they are relatively easy techniques compared to what is taught. And a whole lot nastier to the individual they are being applied to. However, I can hide some Aikido techniques with in the use of force matrix taught to use. This is how Aikido has helped me. I can hurt without hurting. Hope that makes sense.
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:55 PM   #63
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

I agree with Anthony, I've learned "advanced fighting skills" in other arts like BJJ, JKD, Kickboxing, Krav Maga, etc. and I always fall back on Aikido when it comes to "real situations". It's simple, fast, controlling, and non-lethal in it's movement. I've been able to avoid damaging people who've attacked me and I thank the fact that I left no trail for lawsuit or going overboard with my reaction. Aikido keeps me calm, controlled, and effective.

Imagine if it was your friend attacking you or a close relative, you can't exactly beat them to a pulp, you have to control them without hurting them. That's how I imagine it when I've been in situations to defend myself or others.

-Alexander
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Old 03-11-2008, 06:24 PM   #64
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Anthony

I am assuming that you do not choose to engage armed subjects unarmed. Do they not provide you with less lethal options to address such circumstances? Shields along with your body armor? Pepper ball guns? Batons? Tasers? Gas foggers that you can deploy into the cell from outside?

I am amazed that in this day and age a prison can get away with that.
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:59 PM   #65
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Kit,

It has to be understood that we are expendable. Where as precious inmates are not. Most run ins with violent individuals happen in the so called "pysch. buildings". They can not be gassed. The prison system only uses batons in case of riots (you have to be on a special team for that). We used to have a chemical munitions squad, but that was cut a few years back for budget reasons. We enter as a 5 man team. The first man uses a shield to hopefully "pin" the inmate. But more often than not, the inmate slips past the shield man, or has a rolled up mattress on the ground to compromise the shield mans effectiveness upon entering the cell. So, in a nutshell we are forced to cell extract them and then give them a shot, instead of gassing them because they suckered some Dr. into thinking they are mentally ill. If we gas them under mental health status, we can be sued because it is ASSUMED that gassing is a form of retaliation for them beating the system by becoming all but untouchable. Know what I mean?
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:47 PM   #66
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Re: Modern Army Combatives

Just for fun,

Professor Leonard Holifield's Army Combatives: The third video asks the one question leonard hates to discuss:

Who would win, him or his cousin Evander??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etNg1...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7pmp...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONs5o...eature=related
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