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Old 04-28-2008, 09:59 AM   #226
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Interestingly enough, when a similar issue arose in the Iwama organization, the head of that organization was able to go to the Aikikai and get the suspect's ranking revoked.

It is my understanding that this is a rather unusual thing to have happen. But when I think about it, it speaks volumes of the integrity of that head instructor (unfortunately now no longer with us).

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:01 PM   #227
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

It's an interesting (to me) observation that when it's such an easy case to judge, this thread just ran into 10 pages.

I'm honestly not making any accusation here, but what is behind everyone's fascination with this issue?
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:08 PM   #228
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi Bill,
I can't speak to anyone else, but I am not particularly "fascinated" by the thread, or the topic. I simply was shocked at first, and found it necessary to understand later. Understand what? you might ask.

How these things happen right under our noses.
How to prevent them.
The psychology at play when these things happen.

I think this is an important topic, not just for the specifics, but for the general issue as a whole. I have already learned that I personally had some mis-conceptions in this area. Ellis and others were kind enough to point them out, so I actually learned something.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-28-2008, 01:05 PM   #229
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
It's an interesting (to me) observation that when it's such an easy case to judge, this thread just ran into 10 pages.

I'm honestly not making any accusation here, but what is behind everyone's fascination with this issue?
Fascination, no. Concern, yes.
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Old 04-29-2008, 11:27 AM   #230
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
It's an interesting (to me) observation that when it's such an easy case to judge, this thread just ran into 10 pages.

I'm honestly not making any accusation here, but what is behind everyone's fascination with this issue?
I can't speak for all reasons for anyone. I've asked the same question regarding the 1000's of pages about 'is aikido effective'converstion.
For me the conversation is driven by several subjects of connection.
1) I am familiar with the teacher, I train in this lineage and I am aware that there are other incidents in the past that relate to abuses in this lineage as well ( if you don't know what those are, another time or place would be better) and as a family I wish to recognize and heal away from the generational problems we carry.
2) I teach aikido daily to young people and support and conversations have come publicly and privately from this forum that are very productive.
3) It is a community issue that when swept under the mat make for lumpy dojo surfaces, as it were.

4) It is a shame and we need to talk about how to be safe with our youth and what happens when we have people trained in arnachronistic environments who return to our society and assimilate inappropriately.

There's more, but that covers my thoughts this AM.

Reasonable question.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 04-29-2008, 05:51 PM   #231
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
...1) I am familiar with the teacher, I train in this lineage and I am aware that there are other incidents in the past that relate to abuses in this lineage as well... I wish to recognize and heal away from the generational problems we carry.
...4) It is a shame and we need to talk about how to be safe with our youth and what happens when we have people trained in arnachronistic environments who return to our society and assimilate inappropriately.
That sounds like there is some substantial background to this case that hasn't come to light yet.

When I asked the question about the fascination with this subject, my own answer was this- It's human nature that when there's a tragedy, we like to protect ourselves from similar incidents in the future. Especially in cases where our children are the vulnerable ones.

It'd be a shame if this were a problem that would've been avoidable. And one of the scariest things to hear someone say after the fact is, "If only we had known." Especially when you know someone did.

Last edited by Bill Danosky : 04-29-2008 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:12 PM   #232
Dan Herak
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Paul Araki-Metcalfe wrote: View Post
This sort of thing happened in Australia years ago. It was investifated internally (wrong way to go about it) and was found not to be true. Paul
I find this rather troubling. If the incident turned out not to have been true, then handling it internally seems to have been the right way to go. No one would argue the damage caused by being sexually violated. Yet the damage of being falsely accused of such an act is exceptionally severe, as well. I have never heard of anyone committing suicide over being falsely accused of stealing a TV set. I have heard of suicides after false accusations of some type of sexual impropriety. There is a good argument to be made that the identity of the accused should not be revealed until at least a conviction, perhaps even after appeals.

Of course, that would leave open the issue as to what to do with an accused until that point. I understand that the parents of one of Clint George's students will respond by stating that, putting safety first, they would want to know of such allegations way before the legal resolution of the situation. I agree. I am speaking, however, of publicizing an accused's name in print. Prohibiting the accused from interacting with certain people (for instance, children under the age of 16) until the case is resolved would not be inconsistent with this approach. Maybe Clint George's name would be darkened in his hometown, but it would not be the subject of conversation here, and perhaps never would.

For another book recommendation, by the way, check out On Evil, by Adam Morton. It gives you a lot to chew on.
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Old 04-30-2008, 03:42 PM   #233
Dennis Hooker
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Dan Herak wrote: View Post
I . I am speaking, however, of publicizing an accused's name in print.

For another book recommendation, by the way, check out On Evil, by Adam Morton. It gives you a lot to chew on.
We have a local Mayor in central Florida accused by three teens. His name his picture and address appeared in the paper and on TV. The teens were found to be making it up to cover a crime. His life in Central Florida and perhaps everywhere is in shambles even though he is innocent.

I do not have children’s class but the Judo and Karate that use the dojo do. I have a rule that a parent must always be watching class and if possible participating in class. Even if something happened in another class the dojo would be ruined.

Last edited by Dennis Hooker : 04-30-2008 at 03:48 PM.

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Old 04-30-2008, 03:53 PM   #234
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
I think this is an important topic, not just for the specifics, but for the general issue as a whole. I have already learned that I personally had some mis-conceptions in this area. Ellis and others were kind enough to point them out, so I actually learned something.
I looked up the book Ellis recommends above, and it's quite a useful read.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-02-2008, 03:36 PM   #235
CorkyQ
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Corky, I must admit that I find your comments extremely difficult to swallow. To twist the words of O-sensei into arguing that the act of forgiving the sexual abuse of a child is somehow a noble thing is beyond me. He didn't just write "take one step aside" but "take one step aside and cut them down at the speed of light. (grossly translated, but you get the idea)

And combining that twisted argument with your earlier comments such as this being only a crime of "love" and "misplaced love"... Well in combination I think it shows a truly profound lack of understanding as to the nature of such crimes. And this is very disturbing to me to say the very least.

Obviously I'm not as evolved a human as you for I cannot for the life of me see how anything you wrote is anything more than empty pontification and self-aggrandizing posturing at the expense of a truly horrible situation.
Keith, I did not twist Osensei's words, I merely presented them with my interpretation and requested others to present their own that might be in opposition to the idea that Osensei created and refined Aikido to be a compassionate response to attack.

I'm open to how your "gross translation" of "cut them down at the speed of light" comes into alignment with ""Aikido is not the art of fighting using brute strength or deadly weapons, or the use of physical power or deadly weapons to destroy one's enemies, but a way of harmonizing the world and unifying the human race as one family." In fact, I remember something taped to the window next to the front door of the Seidokan Hombu dojo in which founder Roderick Kobayashi Sensei quotes Osensei saying that Aikido is not about winning fights or defeating opponents. That quote will do for a comparison as well.

Kanshu Sunadomari, pre-war uchideshi to Osensei from the age of 14 and still leading keiko at the age of 84, still studying the words of the founder in their native Japanese, says that Osensei's message is of unconditional love. If anyone is twisting Osensei's words to fit my point of view then so is he. So who to believe - Keith or Sunadomari Shihan... hm...

Regarding the nature of the crime and the nature of forgiveness and compassion: first - acts of forgiveness and compassion in no way indicate acceptance of the action. Unless you understand this, you will never understand my point. You may have to continue to choke on the meaning of unconditional compassion until you get that simple distinction if you find it that hard to swallow.

Second, when you start assigning levels of crimes to levels of worthiness of forgiveness and compassion, it makes the whole issue arbitrary. When it is arbitrary, compassion and forgiveness become worthless as virtues because their real value comes when we can forgive the unforgivable and feel compassion for those who do the most heinous things. That Gandhi could feel compassion for Hitler while despising the actions of the man is how by nothing more than the strength of his convictions he was able to institute the independence of India from Great Britain. When your level of accomplishment approaches his, I will be more apt to take your contradictory point of view to be more valid.

Lastly, your own insistance that this man did not "fall in love" with this young woman does not stand up to the evidence presented in the one article on which this entire thread is based. The article clearly states that there was mutual engagement. That both you and I feel that this man took advantage of this student is supported by the article, but that he is a pedophile is not. The article talks of 85 emails over three months between them, with the implication that the relationship was "progressing" until there was inappropriate touching over clothing. That was the most extreme behavior reported. Inappropriate touching to you and I could have been a provocative hug, and it could have been that to the law enforcement officer reporting to the reporter who wrote it up. We don't know the nature of the inappropriate touching, That your mind may take you to even more insidious places with their relationship is between you and your imagination, not the facts as reported in the initial article.

With all your research into the subject, please tell what else in the article points to systematic predation.

One thing you will have to face up to (speaking of self-aggrandizement) is that your (and my) reprehension with these actions between a man who is clearly an adult and clearly taking advantage of his student's trust in him - and I'll remind you that I, while admitting that I still struggle with forgiveness in my own situation, am the father of a daughter who was subject to this same kind of thing so perhaps I'm even closer to this situation than you - is based on cultural bias if just considering ages and age differences of the individuals.

The truth is, that had Clint George had a relationship that involved sex with a thirteen year old in Japan, the birthplace of aikido, he may have faced the same scorn for all the same aspects of his behavior for which he is receiving it here, but he would not have been arrested unless by prefecture law, because the age of consent there is thirteen as it is in Spain. In Syria and the Phillipines it is 12. (And please don't use that as an excuse to make racist statements.)

Do you and I feel that a relationship between individuals of this age differential is inappropriate? Yes, and most states in the United States agree. Is it arbitrary? Yes, and a quick review points out that it is arbitrary across state lines. In some states it's 18, in some it's 14, some it's 16. It's arbitrary. Even Jessica sometime ago, said that the Juliet analogy wasn't appropriate because R & J were the same age - so in her mind it was okay as long as Romeo wasn't 49. What about 35? 26? 21? 18? 16? 14? What's the age for Jessica when it becomes acceptable? Again, it will be arbitrary. The point is that there is a line drawn in the sand in which the state says it must butt out if a youth falls in love or at least mutually consents to a sexual relationship, and it is arbitrary and based on cultural bias not biological fact.

So again, lest anyone think I support adults taking advantage of youngsters (or anyone, really) - I certainly do not. But compassion and forgiveness must be unconditional or else they are meaningless as virtues.

My statements have nothing to do with self-aggrandizement as I am in no position to claim to be accomplished in my ability to forgive or feel compassion. My "posturing" is just to point out that this situation gives us a chance to evaluate our own abilities to generate forgiveness and compassion. Ignore it or take it at your own discretion.
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:49 PM   #236
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
The truth is, that had Clint George had a relationship that involved sex with a thirteen year old in Japan, the birthplace of aikido, he may have faced the same scorn for all the same aspects of his behavior for which he is receiving it here, but he would not have been arrested unless by prefecture law, because the age of consent there is thirteen as it is in Spain.
Um, just to head off a whole lot of misunderstanding, had Clint George been involved in a sexual relationship with a thirteen year old anywhere in Japan, he would have faced up to 10 years in prison for violating the Child Welfare Law. While the national age of consent is indeed 13 years old, the Child Welfare Law prohibits any adult from engaging in "improper sexual acts" with a child (defined as "under 18").

Josh Reyer

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Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 05-02-2008, 07:19 PM   #237
CorkyQ
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Um, just to head off a whole lot of misunderstanding, had Clint George been involved in a sexual relationship with a thirteen year old anywhere in Japan, he would have faced up to 10 years in prison for violating the Child Welfare Law. While the national age of consent is indeed 13 years old, the Child Welfare Law prohibits any adult from engaging in "improper sexual acts" with a child (defined as "under 18").
Fair enough, Josh, my point was not to say I know something about Japanese law, and I was quoting http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm which also has the disclaimer that I wrote about prefecture law, but if you know something that this website left out, then I stand corrected.

But my point was that if Japan and other nations are have age of consent at that age they are recognizing that youths younger than 18 (e.g. the age of consent in California) are capable of having sexual/romantic relationships, and that while it may be outlandish and unacceptable within our society and ostensibly in Japan as well, that it is not outside the realm of possibility that Clint George did "fall in love" with his student even if that romantic attraction was stemming from an emotional need based on some deep-rooted dysfunction, as opposed to the definition of pedophilia which indicates an attraction to pre-pubescent children with their age as prime attractor rather than an interest in the actual person herself.

So, sorry for the distracting hypothetical, and thanks for the clarification before the potential firestorm.

Last edited by CorkyQ : 05-02-2008 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:29 PM   #238
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Yikes...the false appeals to authority and other nonsense lately are getting kind of...sickening.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 05-02-2008, 08:30 PM   #239
lbb
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
But my point was that if Japan and other nations are have age of consent at that age they are recognizing that youths younger than 18 (e.g. the age of consent in California) are capable of having sexual/romantic relationships, and that while it may be outlandish and unacceptable within our society and ostensibly in Japan as well, that it is not outside the realm of possibility that Clint George did "fall in love" with his student even if that romantic attraction was stemming from an emotional need based on some deep-rooted dysfunction, as opposed to the definition of pedophilia which indicates an attraction to pre-pubescent children with their age as prime attractor rather than an interest in the actual person herself.
You're conflating some things that aren't necessarily connected, at least not in the way you're thinking. Age of consent laws don't "recogniz[e] that [people over a specific age] are capable of having sexual/romantic relationships". Instead, they give a legal recognition to a certain biological age as the age at which a person, given normal mental functioning, is considered capable of giving informed consent to a sexual relationship as defined in the specific law, with another person also as defined in the specific law. The issue is not whether one can be sexual or have romantic feelings for another person -- children have proven to be capable of that at a rather young age. The issue is that sexual or romantic feelings may, and often do, precede the development of a fully formed judgment of one's own self-interest. To steal an analogy from a really great article on pornography I read -- wish I still had it -- ian adult woman might say, "I'm going to be in a sex movie because they'll give me a thousand dollars a day," while a child might say, "I'm going to be in a sex movie because they'll give me candy." We might disagree with the woman, we might say, "I'd never do that," but we don't question her ability to weigh the factors in her life and decide that it's worth it for her. The child's reasoning of what is "worth it" is different, uninformed by a mature understanding of costs and value, and thus inadequately developed to make that decision. That is why age of consent laws exist.

As an aside, you really need to read the fine print on age of consent laws, because there's often a lot more than the age. For instance, in a number of states there are several "ages of consent" -- that at which you can consent to sex with someone of the same age, that at which you can consent to sex with someone older, and how much older, and the genders of the people involved, and what type of sex act is considered "sex", etc.

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Old 05-02-2008, 11:51 PM   #240
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Definately a complexed issued where dialogue helps.

Mary, enjoyed your response. Kudos.

Corky's possibility that Clint George did "fall in love" with his student. Corky I am assuming your playing devils advocate to get people to think about other possibilities. I hope you are.

I want to start with current events and this group has been and will be in the news spotlight to introduce my view a view different then what Corky is talking about.

FLDS, they have been in the news and it looks like they will be in the news for a while because of their views on marriage. The FLDS situation and what Mr. Clint George is accused of (innocent until proven guilty) has issues that cross over. Keeping that on the back burner for now.

I will now tell a story and then talk about it to flesh out my views. Some years ago a relative did some digging up the family tree and nearly tipping the whole tree over. This is how my relative did it. In my family tree a sister to a great, great grandmother at the age of 16 was married off to a great, great grandfather who was about 46 years of age. This was in the "old country" as it has been coined over the generations. Back then the families where farmers, a time when most folk where farmers. An arranged marriage, they had 10 kids. Yep, they where born to work the farm- an unthinkable reason today isn't it. GG grandmother hated who she was forced to marry. GG grandfather it was said fell in love eventhough it was an arranged marriage that had to do with a wife being property.

I don't think a girl born in the year 1893 is much different when it comes to love then a girl today. Like Mary said the thinking is not the same, the adult understanding what they are doing, and the child not having the full understanding. What Mary wrote was true for GGG mother seen in her writing in her diary about her marriage when an adult. GGG mother's writing shows what Mary said to be true. I am sure we will hear the same things coming from FLDS women, those under aged FLDS mothers and ex-FLDS women in the future.

I can't see how any female under the age of consent really can fall in love. Romantic love between kids has been coined puppy love for a reason hasn't it? Adult romantic is so more involved, complicated, and full up with baggage, and agendas the older a person gets. I would like to meet a 50 year person who has changed on the way the look at love since they where 12 years old. I know I have changed, my parents and their parents idea of love has changed with each stage of their life.

Maybe then it is not 100% on how society looks at this matter. Could it be the way society has come to look at this matter is because of the result that it just isn't good? Because it isn't a good idea for many reasons since it effects the child who does change, develop and grow that having a relationship of romance with an adult which would be on an adult level is a problem. Maybe than other societies haven't figured that out, ignorant, following an ignorant tradition blindly, primitive in their ways or have little respect for the children. Just because other societies do it or have done it does make it right.

Before I give an example it could be uncomfortable for some to read, but it should put my thoughts into a better focus. A female child is born with all her reproductive organs, and all her eggs. But that doesn't mean she should engage in, or give birth, or is ready to be a mother before she has fully matured all the way around. That is the same with having relationships. Children just because they have the capacity to love/have a romantic relationship doesn't mean they can, it doesn't mean it is health for them either. Remember, I said my GGGmother hated my GGGfather. She felt when she was 16 she would handle a relationship. But later as an adult realized that a 16 she was too young. It was not a good thing to marry someone 30 years older. She some 40 years years later after she wed and he was long dead she wrote that she couldn't find any good reason for any adult to wed a young girl. Crazy isn't it.

Now a little of what I think hasn't been talked about. My thing is what does any guy at 50 think having a relationship/in love with a young teen is going to evolve into? Such guys are really oddly selfish about their needs. They don't seem to care how their needs will affect the child.

When that show was on about the journalist catching pedophiles red handed, not one of those guys they caught weren't messed up in the head somehow. It just shows normal men don't seek children to have relations or a romantic relationship with in today's world. It is just not a good and healthy relationship to have. It is the child who suffers from it becoming tweaked from it internally, emotionally, developmentally, and with any future relationship. All these adults seem to care about is their unbalaned needs.

Everything I said I hope shows the underlaying reasons why society doesn't allow adults to be involved with children no matter what the adult feels. I want to show too how societies that still might allow adult with child relationships are backward, undeveloped, ignorant socieities. These are not models to follow ,but are socieities that need to change because they are wrong.

sorry that I got long.
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Old 05-02-2008, 11:56 PM   #241
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Something else, I don't blame any organization for the actions of a person if the person's actions are not of the organization. I think an organization can put in actions that can hinder and make it uncomfortable for people who do wrong. I don't think any organization can prevent wrong doing. I feel they can work to limit it. An organization can pay attention and should in keeping wrong doing from being acceptable or attractive to some, and not letting some people get a way with it. An organization is only as good as the people in it.

Last edited by Buck : 05-03-2008 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:08 AM   #242
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Corky Quakenbush wrote: View Post
The truth is, that had Clint George had a relationship that involved sex with a thirteen year old in Japan, the birthplace of aikido, he may have faced the same scorn for all the same aspects of his behavior for which he is receiving it here, but he would not have been arrested unless by prefecture law, because the age of consent there is thirteen as it is in Spain. In Syria and the Phillipines it is 12.
As Josh has qualified the situation in Japan, let me do the same for the Philippines..

The website used as reference (http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm) has the following note for the Philippines:
Quote:
The age of sexual consent in the Philippines is 12 for all, but contacts with minors (under 18) are an offence if the minor consents to the act for money, gain or any other remuneration or as the result of an influence of any adult person.
Also, there are two bills pending in the Philippine Senate (just filed last month) that would unequivocally raise the age of consent to 16.
I hope this clarifies matters concerning the age of consent in the Philippines.

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:13 AM   #243
CorkyQ
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I pushed "send" on my next to last entry before I realized that I would derail my own point by taking Keith's bait over my reflection that Clint George may be more troubled than twisted, and I'm sorry I can't communicate this better.

I am not making a case for overaged people to have sexual relationships with barely adolescent young people. I'm not making a case for the changing of age of consent laws or anything related to laws in place or in process to protect innocence. And I am not asking anyone to excuse Clint George's behavior.

I agree with you Mary that probably no child of 13 has the life experience to enter into an informed relationship with an adult. They need to be protected by whatever means we can afford them.

Philip, I agree with your point entirely, and so with that in mind let's all agree that a man named Clint George had a relationship with a young woman who was his student. Assumably this is a female who has reached biological maturity, as I have seen or heard nothing that would contradict that. If she has not reached sexual maturity biologically, then what Clint George did would be in the realm of pedophilia.

However, if the student has reached puberty, it would not be pedophilia by definition, at least according to some sources quoted in this thread.

Whether or not this is technically pedophilia, I am sure that we are all in agreement that this relationship was out of balance and improper for a number of reasons. Mary, I'm not trying lay blame on the student for reflecting some kind of immature romantic feelings toward a man who should have known better than to take advantage of whatever was fueling her infatuation, but to recognize just what Philip brought up - that a man of Clint George's age, if he is of right mind, could never consider that a relationship like this could have any chance of going anywhere.

Yet, he pursued it, and that indicates someone not of right mind.

Philip's great great grandfather fell in love with his teenaged great great grandmother in the old country when such things were matter of fact. I am suggesting that it is likely that Mr. George, who is obviously a man whose troubled nature led him to take advantage of the infatuation of an innocent may really have believed that he was in love with this girl. From what I read in the article, Mr. George wasn't out to victimize this young lady, otherwise, why would he have demonstrated his affection or suspicious behavior in the presence of the woman who first called him on it and not once but twice! This doesn't seem to me to be the mind of a predator, but of someone in a fantasy land. Further evidence as reported is that "The content of the emails and times they are being written related to the ages of the individuals involved did appear to be inappropriate," court documents note.

Mary and Philip I think we all agree both that adolescents are capable of the kind of hormonal surges that go along with puberty in ways that would make them feel they are in love, and that grown men are capable of being physically attracted to a young, sexually mature female even in an immature way, as was the case with my daughter and the man in my personal situation.

But my point remains, if Mr. George is so far removed from reality that he would think something wonderful might develop out of this, then he has, as someone pointed out in the early pages of this thread, a lot deeper issues than this, and this reckless behavior points to them.

I apologize again for even bringing the idea up again that Clint George might not be a incorrigible child abuser, but a very troubled man who fell in love with a child.

However, my point is and has always been that whether the man is ill, evil, or genetically chained to a lifetime of lusting after children, this episode remains a chance for us to examine our own hearts. That is the last thing you will hear from me on the subject.

Best to you all, enjoy your training!
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Old 05-03-2008, 09:48 AM   #244
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Corky it isn't something I think we don't agree or disagree so much, for me that is. What I am saying is I see what your saying.

Young girls say young teens can be involved with older men and see the relationship at that time as wondrous fulfilling their needs or a void in their lives. Some older men are able to have sexual romantic with nurturing feelings for young teens. The way the young girls see it really isn't the same as the men see it. I point to what Mary said and how my GGGmother changed her view later in life as an examples. One more example is that girls are not experienced in allot of way enough to have a relationship with older men. No matter how caring, gentle, kind the experience was.

I understand some 13 year old girls will enter these types of relationships. The results are not always good. I think they are still victimized. The child may not feel victimized because their emotional needs were being cared for. That is the problem, I don't think a 13 year old can see the complexities of the situation from all angles. I don't think they understand or see they are being manipulated and their needs being fulfilled is them getting candy.

Why? Well you have to look at it from the man's perspective. We need to look at his reasons. We don't need to look at the reasons of the child for entering the relationship as we do the man's.

Corky, in terms of affairs of the heart people can love, no doubt. But is that love mismatched. What effects of that love will it have on the child? If a child isn't getting the parental love she needs and is entering hormonal changes the child needs to be properly guided through this time. Not only guided but allowed to develop and not be mixed up on the two different types of relationships. Needing a father figure couldn't be linked to romance and sex. A child is very impressionable and easily manipulated by adults. It isn't a matter of the heart, but of growth and development.

Possibly does anyone know if George Clint case would include statutory rape if that type of physical sexual contact happened? I am not saying there was. Doesn't that eventually happen in those types of relationships? When it does doesn't it get more complexed legally, it is a new ballgame right? Something I thought about while responding to Corky.
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Old 05-03-2008, 10:57 AM   #245
aikilouis
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I find that many people jump very easily to conclusions and say Clint George's name as if he had already been sentenced, which is not the case yet. He has become today's sensationnal case, the Michael Jackson or Britney scandal of the aikido world. So far all we have is a newspaper article, and we know how unreliable the media can be sometimes. Experience should teach us to be more cautious before using someone's name too lightly.

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Old 05-03-2008, 12:50 PM   #246
G DiPierro
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Um, just to head off a whole lot of misunderstanding, had Clint George been involved in a sexual relationship with a thirteen year old anywhere in Japan, he would have faced up to 10 years in prison for violating the Child Welfare Law. While the national age of consent is indeed 13 years old, the Child Welfare Law prohibits any adult from engaging in "improper sexual acts" with a child (defined as "under 18").
Despite this, from what I have read, "compensated dating" (enjo kosai) between school-age girls and older men is quite common in Japan. Harsher forms of teenage prostitution also exist in in India and elsewhere in Asia.
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Old 05-03-2008, 01:06 PM   #247
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
I find that many people jump very easily to conclusions and say Clint George's name as if he had already been sentenced, which is not the case yet. He has become today's sensational case, the Michael Jackson or Britney scandal of the aikido world. So far all we have is a newspaper article, and we know how unreliable the media can be sometimes. Experience should teach us to be more cautious before using someone's name too lightly.
Hi Ludwig,
On something like this, what you see on the forums is just the tip of the ice berg. Clint was a part of my Aikido community. He taught at my dojo and the dojos of my closest friends. I know his wife and child. There's been a huge flurry of exchange of info amongst his friends and peers. No one wanted to rush to judgment.

The fact is that the actual criminal side of this is somewhat irrelevant (not to Clint obviously, as it is the difference between jail and not jail). But there is a huge difference between what is required as the "burden of proof" required to put someone behind bars and what is required to ruin you professionally and personally.

Bruce Klickstein never went to trial. He had been predating in his dojo for over ten years but he never was arrested. But he lost his rank, his position, his career, etc. despite the lack of legal conviction in a court. All of this because when he was finally "outed" the victims of a decade of abuse became aware of each other and the community at large became aware of what had been going on.

So the same thing is happening behind the scenes, a lot of information has been and is being shared. People don't just turn around and post those kinds of confidences on the net. So the public at large will never hear about anything else except what comes out at a trial. But the damage to a life time's career, to the friendships, professional relationships, etc is already done. I don't really see how something like that gets un-done.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
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Old 05-03-2008, 03:22 PM   #248
giriasis
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Ledyard Sensei is right. There is a lot that is going on behind the scenes, that none of us know about, in these types of matters. And it would be in the best interests of both sides to not discuss such matters on the internet.

The reason I can state this is that the law firm I work at specializes in representing victims of childhood sexual abuse in civil litigation claims. Our defendents are typically churches/diocese (Catholic and Protestant), schools and other institutions. Unfortunately, the alleged perpetrators are typically people who are in well-respected positions and people would not have suspected them of child abuse.

I think the best focus on this board, is what can we do in our dojos to prevent this kind of abuse from happening? We should be asking ourselves? What should we do when this does happens?

I do have to point out that, yes, it does ruin a person's career when allegations like this come out, but if those allegations are true as alleged, then the alleged victim(s) life has been ruined as well.

Anne Marie Giri
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Old 05-03-2008, 11:29 PM   #249
Buck
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

I would like to consider all those young girls out that might be thinking about having a relationship with an older man because they are looking for the normal parental love they are not getting at home. The young girls who don't really understand their own developing emotions. Who lack the understanding of their own needs. Laying out some details of a relationship with an older man show that it isn't the way to get the love and attention they are missing.

As I said before, I don't put much into the accuracy of the media. But it is the article that is damaging and suggests he has confessed and then is guilty. We are talking about him based on the media release to warn the community. To counter the media's report it would be helpful if we heard from those closest to him to why the report is in accurate. I think there then would be a great shift in the direction of the dialogue. The media release is all that is out there. It is pretty damming.

Clint George is innocent until proven guilty.

I am waiting for the end of the trial before making a judgement.

I have compassion for Clint George assuming he is innocent and how this effects him and his family.

I have compassion for him if he is found guilty, I will not lynch him. I don't need to be mean and cruel to him if he is found guilty. If found guilt he will be letting down a lot of people and his family who looked up to him, he has to face them. He has to face the victims' family who trusted him. He will have to go to prison. If found guilty I will not agree with his actions or will like him, but I will not be cruel or mock him.

Last edited by Buck : 05-03-2008 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 05-04-2008, 11:25 AM   #250
giriasis
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
I would like to consider all those young girls out that might be thinking about having a relationship with an older man because they are looking for the normal parental love they are not getting at home. The young girls who don't really understand their own developing emotions. Who lack the understanding of their own needs. Laying out some details of a relationship with an older man show that it isn't the way to get the love and attention they are missing.
First I want to state that my comments are stated as a generality. And that the following comments are not an attack of the accused.

Most pedophiles claim that their victims came on to them. Such statements are really part of their excuse for "it" happening. It is a lame excuse that the perpetrators like to use to excuse their actions. And often the victims who are chosen come from broken homes or do not have a strong sense of boundaries. Yes, they accept the attention from the perpetrator because they are not getting it at home. thus, a boundary is crossed. However, they are not seeking the perp out, the perp has been seeking them out. They will do things to test their victims. First, they will start to touch in appropriate areas and give appropriate hugs. Then the touching gradually moves to inappropriate areas - a hand a little down lower on the back, a hug that starts to be a little longer, etc. A child that knows their boundaries will pull away and thus the perp knows that this child will not be their victim. They go to the next one until they do find one who is vulnerable and compliant.

Secondly, an adult man or woman should know better and know and understand that such boundaries should NOT be crossed. The adult is the responsible party here, not the child.

Third, many child sex abuse perpetrators utilize two methods. The first is by force and the second is by grooming. The grooming method really is the means by which they gain the trust of the victim (and sometimes the victims family) convincing the victim that this is what they want to do. This can occur over a short period of time to over a period of years before the first inappropriate contact takes place. Please realize, the victims by grooming are not consenting, they are compliant. Often times as a result of the grooming, they convince the victim that they are the "only one." They think that they have this "special relationship" with the perp; however, they often are not the only one. When the news hits the media, they discover for the first time that they were not the only one that they were not special and that they indeed had been abused. They keep quite because of shame and fear and once one comes out they finally are able to gain the courage to speak out. They are not coming out to attack or defame the person, they are speaking out because they realized that they, too, had been victimized.

Here is a good article from SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Preists) in addressing this issue while still being compassionate to both the victim and the accused. You can easily switch out the words priest/sensei and church/dojo, Christian/compassionate. Ledyard Sensei, I hope you share this with the parties that you know.

http://www.snapnetwork.org/links_hom...st_accused.htm

Last edited by giriasis : 05-04-2008 at 11:30 AM.

Anne Marie Giri
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