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Old 04-26-2008, 02:24 PM   #51
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

talking about evidence, proof, and accepting things based on faith...I am listening to a Podcast/interview with Sharon Salzburg (Interviewed by Krista Tippet) on the issue of faith as it relates to western belief structures and faith as it relates to buddhsim. Interesting stuff. I am not done with it, so I cannot comment on it yet, but it follows the theme of this conversation.

Bottomline, we tend to view faith sometimes differently as people. Faith is almost a dirty word to some buddhism followers, yet we have faith anyway...faith the sun will rise...faith in our family....etc.

It is difficult for us to approach many things such as martial arts training with faith....that is, blind faith. We want some sort of sign or proof that we are not wasting our time in some way.

At what point to you give in...let go?

How much proof is necessary?

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Old 04-26-2008, 02:44 PM   #52
Alexander Vanyurikhin
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

I use aikido in fight, but I use only aikido's shift.
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Old 04-26-2008, 04:23 PM   #53
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
At what point to you give in...let go?

How much proof is necessary?
In my experiance it usually takes one Iriminage/Kiminage to help someone understand Aikido's "effectiveness."

William Hazen
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Old 04-26-2008, 04:56 PM   #54
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Yes, but when I do it with a totally non-compliant Uke,it looks like the clinch, followed by a whizzer along with a cross or hook. Shhhh, don't tell anyone in the MMA world that it is iriminage, we will let it be our little secret!

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Old 04-26-2008, 06:55 PM   #55
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Just as spirituality lies within a individual so does the effectiveness of a martial art lies within an individual ,regardless of the style of martial art.

David
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Old 04-26-2008, 07:54 PM   #56
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Just as spirituality lies within a individual so does the effectiveness of a martial art lies within an individual ,regardless of the style of martial art.

David
Woooo Man! That was deeeep!

William Hazen
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Old 04-27-2008, 05:05 AM   #57
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Woooo Man! That was deeeep!

William Hazen
Deep enough for waders?

Seriously, if you want to really know if your Aikido is effective, go out and pick a fight with someone and try it out.

David
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Old 04-27-2008, 12:21 PM   #58
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

To me, that method shows just how little you know about aikido! ...picking fights that is!

I prefer dodging bullets using irimi. Bullets don't care if you tenkan...usually!

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Old 04-27-2008, 02:59 PM   #59
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Deep enough for waders?

Seriously, if you want to really know if your Aikido is effective, go out and pick a fight with someone and try it out.

David
Seriously David just so you know I was just ribbing you a bit and meant no disrespect...

That being said....

Would you explain to me (please ) the paradox of how picking a fight with someone resolves Aikido's effectiveness for you?
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Old 04-27-2008, 04:08 PM   #60
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Seriously David just so you know I was just ribbing you a bit and meant no disrespect...

That being said....

Would you explain to me (please ) the paradox of how picking a fight with someone resolves Aikido's effectiveness for you?
Actually, a number of the young deshi, before and after the war, would sneak out and go drinking and get into it as a way to see if they could really do what they were training. Shirata Sensei in one of John Steven's books talked about that.

After the war O-Sensei once caught a group of deshi trying to sneak back into the dorm. They had clearly been fighting and O-Sensei reamed them out saying "Aikido is not for fighting!!! You are destroying the spirit of Aikido by fighting! And so forth... He ended by asking "Did you win?" Spirit or no spirit, he expected that his students could handle themselves.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-27-2008, 04:42 PM   #61
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Different times and different culture maybe?

For me, it is important martially that I "win". I think it is why I have chosen to get involved in the whole MMA thing.

It is a safe and acceptable way to "fight" and figure out what you are doing.

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Old 04-27-2008, 05:36 PM   #62
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Actually, a number of the young deshi, before and after the war, would sneak out and go drinking and get into it as a way to see if they could really do what they were training. Shirata Sensei in one of John Steven's books talked about that.

After the war O-Sensei once caught a group of deshi trying to sneak back into the dorm. They had clearly been fighting and O-Sensei reamed them out saying "Aikido is not for fighting!!! You are destroying the spirit of Aikido by fighting! And so forth... He ended by asking "Did you win?" Spirit or no spirit, he expected that his students could handle themselves.
Thanks George...I am very familiar with these stories...and my point is it's not unreasonable for folks to expect Aikido to "work" and for Aikidoka to demonstrate this...

How to demonstrate this in a safe and "effective" manner is the rub for most...

I feel I have come with an effective solution which is the reason I posted it.

I wonder who it was at the Aiki-Expo who "tested" a certain wannabe revolutionary reformer of ineffective Aikido named MT only to see same leave with a bit of the Ol Aiki School Yard Edju Ma Cations

So I guess you've kind of experianced what I am sharing first hand. LOL

William Hazen
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:05 PM   #63
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

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No disrespect, but i didn't mean or post this as a "is Aikido effective" question/ debate. I was asking those out there if they believed that THEY could use Aikido effectively. Just to get a general idea of some Aikidoka's opinions, because i posted this from the perspective that i whole-heartedly believe i could use the Aikido that i have been taught for self defence when i need to.

rei,
morgan
Am sure I of it. I believe Aikido is effective. The uncommon answer I have doesn't include Aikido as most might think. That is because of my limited skill level. BTW, we are talking about on the street, right?

Aikido is effective because:

1. You are prepared. The attacker has no clue you have learned Aikido as a counter defense to their attack. The boob doesn't know what is coming, or what will hit him. He will not know how to deal with Aikido wazas.

2. Training for it. 1. is only as good as the hours spent on practice for attacks. Including mental and physical preparedness. Not everyone does practice Aikido in this manner. I think it is a personal choice to do so.

3. Knowing your space. Aikido partly isn't going to work well when your in the car and the attacker has a gun pointed at your ribs in the passengers side. You can't do Tachi wazas to someone from that position. You are pretty limited in what you can do. But what you can use is other Aikido principles applied to that situation.
You are dictate by your environment on what you can and can't do.

Aikido needs to be updated if we are talking about complete effectiveness in situations we might face today in our daily life. Take Surwari-wazas as an example, who sits in seiza around the house outside Japan. Surwari-wazas need to be updated for situations most of us find ourselves in like being in a car. Or Tachi wazas done in tight cramped spaces where there isn't much space, say Katame waza. Gosh, I know these aren't the best waza examples and shows my level of skill not being the highest. But, I think this is something someone of my experience level feels is a concern.

All the examples of being attacked I can think of that I experience in my daily world are places like stair wells, elevators. These are small spaces that really limit what you can do. Places that limit the ability to complete the waza properly. Like me, and everyone else learns Nikyo in class in an open space on the mat. One day outside of the dojo you find yourself in a small narrow stair well. You are attacked, you can't apply the waza completely because the lack of space and the stairs your on. Your out of your element. There is no wazas for being on the stairs. Not the world's greatest example, but I hope the idea gets across.

I am not good enough to counter with another waza on those stairs. Goodness gracious, I don't have the experience to improvise it. I am dependent on a waza/situation set up like I was taught for all techniques.

The matter of Aikido being effective isn't for me the issue because Aikido is effective in my 3 points I laid out. The issue really should be in the changes created by today's daily life that can make it difficult for an Aikidoka to be effective.

What about considering the things that could make Aikido ineffective? Try for example, poor instruction maybe. A good instructor is really important. Not my strongest point, but another would be bring 100% to class and putting it behind your training. Effectiveness isn't the question about Aikido, but what elements would make or hinder someone from using Aikido effectively.

Last edited by Buck : 04-27-2008 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 04-27-2008, 07:39 PM   #64
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
I wonder who it was at the Aiki-Expo who "tested" a certain wannabe revolutionary reformer of ineffective Aikido named MT only to see same leave with a bit of the Ol Aiki School Yard Edju Ma Cations

So I guess you've kind of experianced what I am sharing first hand. LOL

William Hazen
Hi William,
Actually, that wasn't even testing... It was an example of someone who couldn't even do the simple controlled exercise as demonstrated by the teacher. The disconnect between self perception and actuality was indicative of a certain level of dysfunction. Once I realized that I simply tried to take care of him... unsuccessfully, in the end. But what was done was ENTIRELY self inflicted, I can assure you. I mean, a double leg take down isn't really the technique of choice when you are 130 lbs soaking wet and your opponent is over 300 lbs. especially if you don't know how to do it properly and try to lift him...

"Testing" would involve getting into it with someone who could actually handle himself. I am too old and beat up to find that idea interesting at all. If I ever have to fall back on technique, it needs to be over very quickly. I am too out of shape to have anything go on for any length of time. One or the other of us is going down fast...

My interest is in developing my understanding of the art. Fighting just isn't interesting at this point. Somebody just gets hurt and that's no fun for me or the other guy...

George S. Ledyard
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:23 PM   #65
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
How to demonstrate this in a safe and "effective" manner is the rub for most...
Introduce one rule (for example "no weapons" or "no kidnapping family members of opponent" or even "no flying planes into buildings of opponent's country") then I would say it would not reflect the reality of conflict.

Going back to something I said earlier in the thread: if you intend to do something and you plan it and practise it, getting as close to actually doing it as you can, your chances of actually being able to do it when the moment comes should improve. If you really practiced breaking people's wrists with intent, or intentionally killing people, you'd get quite good at it. However, it isn't easy to do this legally in most of our countries.

So in competition, we create rules and change our intention. We might remove moves that could kill or break a wrist altogether or we'll keep them but modify them and only use them to gain a submission through pain. Loss is no big deal. Our intention is not to break a wrist or kill. If it were, then there would surely be a much higher success rate. Does anyone seriously compete, using killing-orientated techniques, with the intention of killing their opponent? Compliance to rules is just another form of compliant training. The physical skills gained in training your mind to win and score points are certainly transferable to reality. But there is still artificiality in the training methodology:

Quote:
One person catches a dō attack with his elbow (on the flesh of his arm) and insists that the other person did not score a point. The other person, however, says, "No, I scored a point!" Then the first person shows the spot on his arm where a bruise is starting to appear and says: "Isn't this bruise on my arm direct evidence that you missed?"!
Kunii Zenya

When entities (people, countries, corporations... whatever) conflict with each other, they use strategy to end that conflict. Ideally, strategy should create harmony as well as peace since one version of peace can be a battered wife learning to shut the hell up or a military dictator successfully (and disharmoniously) oppressing a nation. Even Sun Tzu said that finding a way to win without fighting was better.

Carl
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:57 PM   #66
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Hi William,
Actually, that wasn't even testing... It was an example of someone who couldn't even do the simple controlled exercise as demonstrated by the teacher. The disconnect between self perception and actuality was indicative of a certain level of dysfunction. Once I realized that I simply tried to take care of him... unsuccessfully, in the end. But what was done was ENTIRELY self inflicted, I can assure you. I mean, a double leg take down isn't really the technique of choice when you are 130 lbs soaking wet and your opponent is over 300 lbs. especially if you don't know how to do it properly and try to lift him...

"Testing" would involve getting into it with someone who could actually handle himself. I am too old and beat up to find that idea interesting at all. If I ever have to fall back on technique, it needs to be over very quickly. I am too out of shape to have anything go on for any length of time. One or the other of us is going down fast...

My interest is in developing my understanding of the art. Fighting just isn't interesting at this point. Somebody just gets hurt and that's no fun for me or the other guy...
No worries George I understand where you're coming from. I sure hope you find a way to get back in some kind of good shape to continue practicing though after reading your post you have me a bit worried about your health.

Again...One More Time for anyone else who may be confused by my poor explaination...The method I have used for addressing Aikido's "effectiveness" is just to let the doubter attack and let that flow into Aikido. It does NOT mean we're going to fight or hurt each other intentionally or anything like that. It's just a simple illustrative Randori if you will...Now bear in mind that in my experiance My Aikido does not always work LOL.. but I am greatful when someone shows me the weakness in my personal technique. I believe what I have been taught... That is... Aikido is a Martial Art FIRST... and generally must work against other Martial Arts in order to be a Budo...

When newbs come to class of course they naturally question the validity of what they're doing WE still question the validity of what we're doing too and are always trying to improve it...

Look at it this way if you cannot "handle" an attack then how can you express Aikido??? You are destroying any chance of achieving harmony.

It's a simple question with a simple answer...Practice Practice Practice.

William Hazen
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:19 PM   #67
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Look at it this way if you cannot "handle" an attack then how can you express Aikido??? You are destroying any chance of achieving harmony.

It's a simple question with a simple answer...Practice Practice Practice.

William Hazen
Truly, wise words from someone with years of experience and taught by one of the finest Sensei. I take what you say seriously and in earnest. You are much better trained and knowledgable than my Sensei.

As an experiences and well trained Aikidoka, should I be concerned. Becaue what you said doesn't make me feel very optimistic or confident now if that is the case. I am not there yet, like so many other Aikidokas to be able to handle any attack anywhere thrown at me, no matter how much I practice at this point. I honestly don't yet have 20 years of Practice, Practice, Practice, under my obi. Aikido is a long road of working hard, dedication, sacrifice, struggling, learning, developing to handle attacks even with a good sensei. What then are mine and others like me chances of achieving harmony, are we really doomed until mastery?
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Old 04-28-2008, 12:35 AM   #68
Aikibu
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

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Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Truly, wise words from someone with years of experience and taught by one of the finest Sensei. I take what you say seriously and in earnest. You are much better trained and knowledgable than my Sensei.

As an experiences and well trained Aikidoka, should I be concerned. Becaue what you said doesn't make me feel very optimistic or confident now if that is the case. I am not there yet, like so many other Aikidokas to be able to handle any attack anywhere thrown at me, no matter how much I practice at this point. I honestly don't yet have 20 years of Practice, Practice, Practice, under my obi. Aikido is a long road of working hard, dedication, sacrifice, struggling, learning, developing to handle attacks even with a good sensei. What then are mine and others like me chances of achieving harmony, are we really doomed until mastery?
Ah yes... Doubt

My sense of doubt can be a liability or an asset depending on how I express it in my practice...

My experiance does not translate into mastery... indeed I learn allot more from failure. For me doubt translates into awareness that I can always be better...gives me the next path up the mountain...and moves me to keep practicing...Doubt gives me (as Suzuki Roshi once emphasized in his practice) "Beginners Mind" The realization that Aikido can only be expressed in the moment I am in and that up until that moment of contact I do not know if the outcome of my practice will be harmony or me lying flat on my back having failed my Uke...

Doubt is only a liability if one uses it as a reason not to enter if one gives up before they are satisfied that they have not givin that technique or practice everything they can...

As Shoji Nishio once said "Sincere Heart through Austere Practice"

Mastery??? LOL I still have to make that choice everytime Uke attacks.

William Hazen
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:51 AM   #69
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

The reality is that if you ask to 100 Aikidoka what Aikido is you will get 200 different answers. How can a newcomer have a clear opinion of effectiveness when he doesn't know what Aikido is?
I myself I found out another aspect of Aikido not too long ago. When Sensei demostrated how I was wrong some of theories about Randori. After that he pointed out that was training, while in reality he wouldn't have those pauses that happens in training. Seeing Sensei demostrating what he meant and actually him attacking the second person instead of waiting for the attack opened another way of seeing Aikido for me.
Unfortunately people not only go to a dojo to learn, but spend too much time on youtube and read too many forums. So after few weeks of practicing, watching demos and reading other people words, they think they got too know all about Aikido...thus get filled with doubts.
After almost 2 years I am the first one to say that I know very little or almost nothing of Aikido, not because I can't do this or that technique, but because I discover every day new aspect of this Budo and I am sure there are many more to discover.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:19 PM   #70
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Yes, Morgan Aikido does work in the street,quick off balancing atemi and tech or throw, I am a Police officer and Aikido has HELPED me in many situations,to get the perp to cooperate.Train hard and trust in the art you study and it will help you.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:28 PM   #71
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Introduce one rule (for example "no weapons" or "no kidnapping family members of opponent" or even "no flying planes into buildings of opponent's country") then I would say it would not reflect the reality of conflict.
war has tons of rules, its just that rules are made to be broken. Just like competition has rules, but many will push their limits. I've gotten kneed, kicked, slammed and crossfaced in a judo match. All of that is illegal in judo. I had one opponent try many times to knee me in the balls during the match. War has rules to, and governments do their best to work around or ignore them, just like in sport.
Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Going back to something I said earlier in the thread: if you intend to do something and you plan it and practise it, getting as close to actually doing it as you can, your chances of actually being able to do it when the moment comes should improve. If you really practiced breaking people's wrists with intent, or intentionally killing people, you'd get quite good at it. However, it isn't easy to do this legally in most of our countries.

So in competition, we create rules and change our intention. We might remove moves that could kill or break a wrist altogether or we'll keep them but modify them and only use them to gain a submission through pain. Loss is no big deal. Our intention is not to break a wrist or kill. If it were, then there would surely be a much higher success rate. Does anyone seriously compete, using killing-orientated techniques, with the intention of killing their opponent? Compliance to rules is just another form of compliant training. The physical skills gained in training your mind to win and score points are certainly transferable to reality. But there is still artificiality in the training methodology:
In competition, I do not try to submit via pain. I try to break their arm/wrist/ankle/whatever. I suspect my opponents are trying to do the same. It is the duty of the ref to insure safety of us both and it is the duty of each of us to protect ourselves. When you secure a submission in competition, you do not do it enough to get a tap, you have no idea what the pain threshold of your opponent is. No you do it completely until the ref stops you. Just like a boxer doesn't just try for a 'little' knock out, you do not try for a 'little' submission. This is the risk you take to step on the mat in competition. When I throw in judo competition, I do not try to do the minimum needed to score an ippon, I try to throw my opponent so hard on the ground that he never wants to stand up with me again.

You can see this even more in MMA, fighters do not stop striking after their opponent is visibly unable to defend themselves. They stop striking when the ref stops them.

Training however is a huge difference. In training I would rather 'lose' and protect my partner then hurt him.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-28-2008, 05:55 PM   #72
Bill Danosky
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

My view of what Aikido actually "is" has changed over the last few years. They say Leonardo Da Vinci drew and painted 1000 hands, then became an artist. I think a person theoretically masters the techniques and they can then find Aiki.

I think now that Aikido (in the sense that O Sensei meant) is something you eventually express with all the techniques you learn in your Kyu levels. So if you're good enough, you can effectively drop your opponent in a very OR you can go budo on them.

MHO
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:29 PM   #73
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Am sure I of it. I believe Aikido is effective. The uncommon answer I have doesn't include Aikido as most might think. That is because of my limited skill level. BTW, we are talking about on the street, right?

Aikido is effective because:

1. You are prepared. The attacker has no clue you have learned Aikido as a counter defense to their attack. The boob doesn't know what is coming, or what will hit him. He will not know how to deal with Aikido wazas.

2. Training for it. 1. is only as good as the hours spent on practice for attacks. Including mental and physical preparedness. Not everyone does practice Aikido in this manner. I think it is a personal choice to do so.

3. Knowing your space. Aikido partly isn't going to work well when your in the car and the attacker has a gun pointed at your ribs in the passengers side. You can't do Tachi wazas to someone from that position. You are pretty limited in what you can do. But what you can use is other Aikido principles applied to that situation.
You are dictate by your environment on what you can and can't do.

Aikido needs to be updated if we are talking about complete effectiveness in situations we might face today in our daily life. Take Surwari-wazas as an example, who sits in seiza around the house outside Japan. Surwari-wazas need to be updated for situations most of us find ourselves in like being in a car. Or Tachi wazas done in tight cramped spaces where there isn't much space, say Katame waza. Gosh, I know these aren't the best waza examples and shows my level of skill not being the highest. But, I think this is something someone of my experience level feels is a concern.

All the examples of being attacked I can think of that I experience in my daily world are places like stair wells, elevators. These are small spaces that really limit what you can do. Places that limit the ability to complete the waza properly. Like me, and everyone else learns Nikyo in class in an open space on the mat. One day outside of the dojo you find yourself in a small narrow stair well. You are attacked, you can't apply the waza completely because the lack of space and the stairs your on. Your out of your element. There is no wazas for being on the stairs. Not the world's greatest example, but I hope the idea gets across.

I am not good enough to counter with another waza on those stairs. Goodness gracious, I don't have the experience to improvise it. I am dependent on a waza/situation set up like I was taught for all techniques.

The matter of Aikido being effective isn't for me the issue because Aikido is effective in my 3 points I laid out. The issue really should be in the changes created by today's daily life that can make it difficult for an Aikidoka to be effective.

What about considering the things that could make Aikido ineffective? Try for example, poor instruction maybe. A good instructor is really important. Not my strongest point, but another would be bring 100% to class and putting it behind your training. Effectiveness isn't the question about Aikido, but what elements would make or hinder someone from using Aikido effectively.
Thank you very much for your reply Philip! I agree with almost everything you are saying actually, and i enjoyed your reply most out of any of the others so far.

And may i offer some advice? In my also very limited experience in the form of Aikido i study, we are taught to start out with big circles in all of our movements and as we progress to start making them smaller and smaller until they are almost unintelligible(at a very high level of course ). But with me, i tend to see what others are doing (such as my Sensei) and mimic their movements. So my circles have already shrunk ALOT, haha. But, maybe you could try doing that? Practice your techniques in class as usual, but try and get your body to use up less space as you execute the technique, such as foot movement, hand movement, hip movement, just use smaller circles and smaller steps to achieve the same goal.
Just a suggestion, but I hope it is helpful!
And, may I ask how long you have been studying? Because you sound almost as bad as I do in broadcasting your lack of experience, haha.

domo,
morgan
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Old 04-29-2008, 08:47 AM   #74
dps
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Seriously David just so you know I was just ribbing you a bit and meant no disrespect...

That being said....

Would you explain to me (please ) the paradox of how picking a fight with someone resolves Aikido's effectiveness for you?
I understood the ribbing, no problem.

I see no conflict in my statement. If a person really wants to see if their martial art works, get in to a fight and try it. What you do in the dojo or organized fight with rules will not show you if you can use your martial art skills in a "on the street fight" with no rules. I personally do not do this ( although I have been in one fight and my Aikido worked) , but have known a few people that have sought out fights.

David

Last edited by dps : 04-29-2008 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:04 AM   #75
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Aikido. Effective?

David, so the presumption is that in an organized dojo with rules, that it won't work...(or might not work)....but on the street it will (with no rules)?

I disagree with that logic. If there are truly "no rules" then there are more parameters being introduced into the equation than in a situation with rules.

The only way this works in my mind is if you assume that some how aikido has a leg up on the "other" parameters in the no rules fight!

If you cannot adequately demonstrate some basic things that are common to all fights (rules or no rules) then you simply will not be a good, effective fighter.

These things, in my experiences, and those in my organization (U.S. Army) that have been involved in "real no rules fights", are that organized, controlled situations can demonstrate basic fighting ability.

If you cannot demonstrate a modicum of skill in a controlled situations, introducing "more" to the situation does not make it better for you...it makes it worse.

Again, that is, unless you assume that aikido has some leg up on those "no rules" parameters.

Also, it depends on other factors that lie outside of physical martial skill such as suprise, stealth, initiative an things like that...which are martial skills actually, but are usually weeded out of the training environment to be able to compare physical martial skill.

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