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Old 04-15-2008, 02:55 PM   #101
RonRagusa
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
Ugh.

Stomping is not allowed under the unified rules of MMA. It was allowed in Japan for several years yes, but nowdays it's not allowed there either. Everyone recognized that stomping (and soccer kicking, and up kicks to the head from the ground) take, well, not a whole lot of skill to pull off. So they were banned. You're much more likely to take serious crushing damage to your rib cage from kiddy football than you are in MMA.

Choking, as another poster has mentioned (and me myself mentioned repeatedly), is part of the pre-adult Judo syllabus, as well as joint locks like armbars. (I find the complaints about joint locking fascinating coming from Aikidoka).

Just because you're mounted doesn't mean that the fight is over if you're trained. I spent 15 minutes last night drilling escapes from being mounted. The body mechanics of that are not a whole lot different than Judo newaza or Wrestling. And if it's obvious that the mounted participant isn't able to defend himself, the referee immediately stops it before serious damage occurs. You'd know that if you watch MMA.

Ugh ugh UGH. I forgot why I gave up on this thread and made the mistake of wandering into this vortex of unfounded assumptions.
First off, let's remember we're talking about children here, not adults.

As to your assertion that kiddie football is more likely to result in rib cage injuries than kiddie MMA I say let's wait until kiddie MMA has been around awhile before making unfounded assumptions regarding comparisons of the two sports.

My reference to joint locks, chokes and the like carried with it the caveat 'intended to submit an opponent.'

Ground and pound should be banned from kiddie MMA, period. There's no reason for it. I've watched plenty of UFC bouts where the referee stops the fight only after the guy on the bottom gets his head caught between elbow and mat or fist and mat many more times than necessary. Even with protective head gear a child's brain and spinal column are going to take more punishment than is healthy. Again, to what end?

That said, I have no objection to kids training in MMA any more than Id object to kids training in any martial art.

With regard to kids competing in MMA fights I'll repeat what I posted to Kevin a while ago:

"I'd like to see the referee be required to stop a match with the successful demonstration of any of the following: full mount, any choke, arm bar, leg bar, heel hook or any triangle involving the head."

Waiting for a tap isn't necessary. By then serious damage can occur that may not be evident until later. What can you possibly object to in erring on the side of caution when kids are involved?

Ron
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Old 04-15-2008, 03:25 PM   #102
edtang
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Ron Ragusa wrote: View Post
As to your assertion that kiddie football is more likely to result in rib cage injuries than kiddie MMA I say let's wait until kiddie MMA has been around awhile before making unfounded assumptions regarding comparisons of the two sports.
This is not an unfounded assumption. This is from my from my own experience being tackled hard on a field and training / sparring. I, unlike those of you who haven't done the training, am not making assumptions without the certainty that I know what I'm talking about.

I have no problems with caution. I actually don't really disagree with you fundamentally about erring on the side of caution when it comes to ground and pound or stopping submissions early. However, I vehemently disagree that attaining full mount is the same as getting into perfect position for a triangle or armbar (because sure, yes, that's enough cause to stop things). If you've trained you'd know. It simply isn't. Period.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:08 PM   #103
edtang
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I hasten to add this caveat to my posts - I'm not 100% sure myself that there should be kid's MMA for exhibition (i'm strongly leaning towards no), even though, like I've said, I feel that it's been blown completely out of proportion. Given the facts (without the sensationalist rhetoric and assumptions), I feel that it's hypocritical to be against it and not against other forms of competitive martial arts / sports practiced with just as high if not higher documented injury incident rates than comparable components of MMA that are commonplace activities. I completely understand and can very much empathize with the viewpoint that kids have no business training in it or doing it if the same standards are applied across the board to other competitive activities. I'm simply not convinced that a kid's elbow joints are any safer in football or wrestling as they are having an armbar applied to them with a referee or coach watching them and stopping it when appropriate. And that's from having had hard falls/tackles with accidents nearly happening and having had dozens of armbars applied to me.

But fundamentally, the discussion about it in the news have been overblown. It's not like the vast majority of state athletic commission would ever allow it (for a mix of many valid or invalid reasons), or the UFC would attempt to legitimize it (they're refusing to consider promoting women's MMA at the moment as it is), and that's totally fine by me.

Last edited by edtang : 04-15-2008 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:19 PM   #104
dragonteeth
Dojo: Elkton Ki-Aikido
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I think from a woman's perspective it's really hard to understand why someone would not want to teach a young person how to escape a full or half mount, especially a girl. Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? Aikido does not lend itself to this very well at all, not that I have seen or heard anyway. Yes, it's great for avoiding getting down on the ground in the first place, but anyone this side of O Sensei can get jumped before they realize it (especially kids). I still think two of the biggest things that this could teach kids are what to do when someone gets you on your back, and how not to freak out when someone is nailing the crap out of you. Those two skills in combination could very well have the power to save someone's life.

Whether you allow a kid to compete in MMA is one thing, but I still think the study of it is definitely something I could support under the right conditions.
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:24 PM   #105
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

I'll say this...some of the women's fights on tv were the best I've seen...gutsy, technical, good match ups...too bad there aren;t more of them.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-15-2008, 04:36 PM   #106
edtang
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Lori Snidow wrote: View Post
I think from a woman's perspective it's really hard to understand why someone would not want to teach a young person how to escape a full or half mount, especially a girl. Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? Aikido does not lend itself to this very well at all, not that I have seen or heard anyway. Yes, it's great for avoiding getting down on the ground in the first place, but anyone this side of O Sensei can get jumped before they realize it (especially kids). I still think two of the biggest things that this could teach kids are what to do when someone gets you on your back, and how not to freak out when someone is nailing the crap out of you. Those two skills in combination could very well have the power to save someone's life.

Whether you allow a kid to compete in MMA is one thing, but I still think the study of it is definitely something I could support under the right conditions.
There's a similar discussion happening elsewhere on the Internet today...

I've had first hand experience with some women's self defense instruction, and from a purely physical mechanics standpoint there was some emphasis on training wrist lock escapes (which makes sense) and striking (which I understand the reasoning behind but am less sure about)... but not nearly enough grappling as I see it. After the first few week of Jiu Jitsu drilling mount escapes and armbars/triangles from the guard I thought the exact same thing about it's very pragmatic applicability to women's self defense (I'm aware this isn't unique to BJJ, just speaking from what I know). However, I think I can understand that the very close-in physical element to that training makes a lot of people justifiably uncomfortable.

Last edited by edtang : 04-15-2008 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:07 PM   #107
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Phil,

My issue is not with your personal choice, just not equating categorically things like boxing into that category for all.

Same with MMA done and trained properly.
I understand that point and Marc mentioned it as well. I have thought about it. It doesn't seem fair to accept football and reject MMA for kids. But with the current public anger toward incidences of teen violence, I can't see any arguement in favor of MMA for kids to win parents over who have their kids in contact sports or other martial arts. Holding up a mirror in front of these parents isn't going to work. I do see the point you and Marc are making.
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Old 04-15-2008, 09:54 PM   #108
Buck
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Re: Ultimate fights expand to include kids

Quote:
Lori Snidow wrote: View Post
Can you honestly say that you have given any young female adequate self defense training without teaching them how to escape from a down/rape position? .
I agree. Kudos. I see the positive elements for women. I think it is great to cross train to cover all your bases for self-defense. Women looking for self-defense need a well rounded program, it is important.

With the popularity of MMA (after all it means different martial arts used) women now have to learn how to deal with that. The mount now has become amore sophisticated attack then what it was before, the elementary school yard bully fighting method. And it is well known by abused women know about the mount as they are pinned on their back or stomach and beaten. Prior to BJJ popularizing the mount, good women's self-defense classes have delt with that. Women always ask what they can do if the guy is on top of them (mount). That is a standard question in women's self-defense classes. I think all woman should know how to deal with the mount, when in a bed, on the floor, in a car by men who are heavier, stronger, bigger, and now who have some training in MMA.
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