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Old 05-07-2002, 06:23 PM   #26
thomasgroendal
 
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Time for a bit of clarification.
Especially for all you traineded strikey peoples.
A trained strike is a pull, an all out, your going bend over and touch your toes, and I'll still be punching strike is a push. In short, if someone does a trained strike, the Maai (distance) is much shorter, and not conducive to tenkan. Particularly if you have someone trained to pull the punch in after they put it out. A snapper, so to speak.
A guy who is so drunk he can't tell if he's hitting you or santa claus is probably going to serve you up something so football tackle oriented, that pulling off an irimi on him becomes impossible.
I had a demo a while back with a guy from a dojo I am visiting once a week. He attacks like small angry bear. I wanted to do munetsuki iriminage, to show them a technique that wasn't in their curriculum, (direct entering version.)
His punch was so dominating and blind, that I found myself throwing irimi while sliding backward to maintain the proper maai. A backwards entering throw! Please don't do this at home. I hope nobody in the audience saw me.
Choosing Irimi and Tenkan is all about the distance you have been given to cross before the attack is over. Maai

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Old 05-08-2002, 05:01 AM   #27
TAC One
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Hello Jun.
Cool thread!

I'm with thomasgroendal when he says that in Irimi you don't change the direction of your sight and in tenkan you have to.
Irimi should contain a kanji rappresenting a
pregnant woman. That could suggest that irimi too could be used to envelope the partner. And tenkan can be piercing as much as irimi, not always enveloping.
(ok, i am getting my english beyond its poor limits)

I think that a more appopriate thread would be "Irimi vs Kaiten". Any kind of kaiten. Simply turning, irimi+kaiten, tenkan or irimi-tenkan.

Last: in Budo Ueshiba wrote something like "when you need to adjust the distance after entering, turn.". I think he talks of situations where uke - after you/his entering - is too near.

What do you think about "irimi and tenkan"?

Tac

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Old 05-08-2002, 05:18 AM   #28
PeterR
 
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Re: Irimi and Tenkan

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Outside of the general form of the two movements, what kind differences do you see between irimi and tenkan?
One works, one doesn't.

Seriously don't think much of isolated tenkan movement which is different then ura versions of various techniques.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 05-09-2002, 07:30 PM   #29
thomasgroendal
 
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Here is a little bit to add to the stew.
How are you doing tenkan undo?
I learned originally from David Rodriguez sensei who was previously with Toyoda out of chicago, and also I am surrounded by Suganuma style aikikai in Oita prefecture.
The tenkan undo that I brought with me from america is a ki no nagare, flowing style. I can't say if that is exactly what Toyoda did because I do not know, but that is what I learned. It focuses on ki, breathing, and leading. The aikikai that I am doing right now starts from a firm static position. You BEGIN by entering, by pointing at their belly button. This produces a response, the desire not be pointed at, essentially you invite a push from them. Then without changing the position of that fight, you bring center to it, and then line up outside of it, eventually sinking down after dominating your uke's position.
I am sorry for the lengthy description of all of this, but it just shows the diversity in the aikido community when it comes to these dynamics. The Suganuma shihan version is almost like an irimi technique, it certainly feels fairly omote. The Rodriguez sensei version emphasizes looking past that and moving behind, a very ura ending. Which is better? I teach both to my students now. Confusing but in the end worth it.
What do you do?
Does anybody practice irimi body movement every class?

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Old 05-10-2002, 12:04 AM   #30
akiy
 
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My thought is that tenkan, even in tenkan undo (aka tai no henko), includes irimi...

Additionally, I'm also a firm believer that irimi does not equate to omote nor does tenkan equate to ura. For me, omote and ura are positional relationships to uke whereas irimi and tenkan are directional changes in relation to uke.

-- Jun

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Old 05-10-2002, 11:23 AM   #31
TAC One
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
My thought is that tenkan, even in tenkan undo (aka tai no henko), includes irimi...

Additionally, I'm also a firm believer that irimi does not equate to omote nor does tenkan equate to ura. For me, omote and ura are positional relationships to uke whereas irimi and tenkan are directional changes in relation to uke.

-- Jun
Very short, very good.

I agree.

Tac

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Old 05-10-2002, 01:08 PM   #32
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Additionally, I'm also a firm believer that irimi does not equate to omote nor does tenkan equate to ura. For me, omote and ura are positional relationships to uke whereas irimi and tenkan are directional changes in relation to uke.-- Jun
Hi, Jun. Was pleased to meet you on the mat at Ikeda's session in LV. About your post, I've wondered about this before--could you give a example of irimi ura or tenkan omote technique? Thanks.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-10-2002, 01:48 PM   #33
Doug Mathieu
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Hi Thomas

This is a very interesting topic. You were wondering about what is being taught regarding tenkan, tai no henko/henka?.

I am going by my memory on some of this as our Shihan has made a number of different remarks about the progression of training and different stages of tenkan practice. Hopefully I won't come across as to stupid.

In Western Canada we follow mainly one Shihan within Aikikai forms.

He has over time told us:

1. Begining practice is much as you described with very static form. Interesting enough our Shihan makes the point that in this form the effect on uke is caused by the motions of nages fingers and arm ie: taking ukes kuzushi happens before making the pivot which brings you to ukes side.

2. He calls this (I think) body changing.

3. The next stage he has Yudansha work on is to not move into uke or at least move very little upon being grabbed and to stay on the line with your toes. He wants us to begin the tenkan at a greater distance and be careful not to lead with our shoulder. Again ukes kuzushi is taken before any hip movement occurs.

4. The feeling for the above two is like using a vertical circle with the end result of uke going down and forward as he holds onto you wrist.

5. After this he talks about Ki No Nagare and how it is not the same practice as tai no henka. Ki No Nagare is more about leading and flow and includes much more hip work. In this it feels like the circle becomes part vertical and part horizontal.

Our group usually has some Irimi practice mainly using the ikkyo movement.

I have so much to learn yet and I hope this doesn't mislead anyone. It seems like you just get used to a certain form when something else is introduced. So far I try to organize it by stages. At early kyu ranks we don't show the form the same way as yudansha.

All the best
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Old 05-10-2002, 05:42 PM   #34
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto


Hi, Jun. Was pleased to meet you on the mat at Ikeda's session in LV. About your post, I've wondered about this before--could you give a example of irimi ura or tenkan omote technique? Thanks.
Hello, Don,

It was good to meet you in Las Vegas and finally fit a face to the name.

As for your question, how about a couple of techniques I showed at Aiki Expo? I think they were both shown in my first class and were responses to a shomen uchi attack. The first one involves using uke's attacking arm in an atemi to his face and throwing, or pinning (if you grasp your own arm). The technique involves a tenkan movement, but done right in front of uke, hence the need for an effective atemi.

The second technique involves entering, taking the attacking hand, turning (tenkan), entering very deeply behind uke (irimi - ura?) changing hands in the process and throwing uke with an elbow atemi to the face.

Both techniques are rather subtle and the second can be very dangerous if uke is not accustomed to atemi. But it was obvious to me that most people who took the class were not familiar with tenkan omote or irimi ura, as you and Jun would describe it.

I am writing this at home and so do not have my aikido books to hand, but in Kisshomaru Ueshiba's book "Aikido" omote / irimi and ura / tenkan do seem to be equated. In both the original Japanese and the English translation, the techniques are explained as "Omote (Irimi)" and "Ura (Tenkan)" and I spent the first few years of my aikido like (not in an Aikikai dojo) without ever hearing the terms omote and ura.

Probably Kisshomaru equated the two as a memory aid and the separation (for they are quite different in meaning, as Jun rightly states) occurred later, as successive teachers wrote books and training manuals on aikido.

Nevertheless, I am not one for excessive classification of techniques, but I do believe in the fundamental importance of irimi, and atemi, as I hope youi might have gathered from my classes in Aiki Expo.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 05-11-2002, 06:17 PM   #35
akiy
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Don_Modesto
Hi, Jun. Was pleased to meet you on the mat at Ikeda's session in LV.
Likewise here, Don! I hope we'll have more chances in the future throwing each other around (or, more likely, you throwing me around and my trying, again, to throw you around!).
Quote:
About your post, I've wondered about this before--could you give a example of irimi ura or tenkan omote technique?
I guess the easiest to see would be iriminage ura where nage enters deeply behind uke, breaks uke's balance to his/her rear (causing them to do the "curly shuffle"), then throws them when they get back up. Compare this to iriminage omote where nage enters to uke's front (most often in response to something like yokomenuchi) then completes the technique while remaining "in front" of nage.

Ikkyo can also be done in the four combinations of irimi/tenkan and omote/ura. I remember our very own Chuck Clark showing me these differences the first time I trained with him at the first Aikido-L Seminar in 1998. Maybe he can provide a good verbal explanation?

I, unfortunately, missed Peter's first class at the Expo and instead waited until his last one (where I had to "tap out" due to dehydration, low blood sugar, and a raging headache)... It was great to take your class and to be thrown the length of several tatami from you, Goldsbury sensei! I hope I'll have the opportunity to train and talk with you again some day soon.

-- Jun

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Old 05-13-2002, 05:37 PM   #36
Don_Modesto
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Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


Hello, Don,

It was good to meet you in Las Vegas and finally fit a face to the name.
And I, you. I greatly enjoyed our breakfasts together, and, like Jun, regret having pooped out at your last session. Your clarification of the two kinds of IKKYO URA are now on my training agenda and receiving explicit attention. They have already smoothed out my technique a great deal. Thank you very much for that.

Quote:
As for your question, how about a couple of techniques I showed at Aiki Expo? I think they were both shown in my first class and were responses to a shomen uchi attack. The first one involves using uke's attacking arm in an atemi to his face and throwing, or pinning (if you grasp your own arm). The technique involves a tenkan movement, but done right in front of uke, hence the need for an effective atemi.
The first one was the recovery to a successfully resisted IKKYO? If so, then yes, I see the point. I also appreciate the point of the necessity of ATEMI. I find myself throwing ATEMI whenever I find myself moving in front of UKE, as you write here, but also in most transitions, eg, after the TENSHIN step for YOKOMENUCH SHIHONAGE.

Thanks for the answer.

Quote:
I guess the easiest to see would be iriminage ura..
And thanks to you too, Jun. Now that you mention it, it seems obvious.

Don J. Modesto
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Old 05-13-2002, 05:47 PM   #37
thomasgroendal
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doug Mathieu
Hi Thomas...
5. After this he talks about Ki No Nagare and how it is not the same practice as tai no henka. Ki No Nagare is more about leading and flow and includes much more hip work. In this it feels like the circle becomes part vertical and part horizontal.
Dear Douglas
Thanks for that perspective. I had been teaching two "versions" of tenkan undo. I think I will change my terminology. It makes more sense to have a tai no henka and ki no nagare type tenkan undo as separate animals. They are closely related, but clearly different.
Thanks.
Tom Groendal

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