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Old 04-08-2008, 12:09 PM   #251
tuturuhan
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

The question is whether you escalate to a "live blade".

With my students, I teach the blade to my women students almost immediately. I wait a minimum of two years before I allow my men students to touch a live blade.

The issue is more physiological than psychological. A man with secrete greater amounts of adrenelin and cortisol when faced with a fight or flight situation. This translates to lack of control in the body and specifically the "male" right hand.

Women on the other hand are in greater control of their emotions given the lower levels of hormone given the stimulus of danger.

As such, knife with create greater perception of danger than stick. Yet, finesse a female quality is more easilly used in smaller more hidden circles. It is the weapon of an assassin and not a police officer.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:30 PM   #252
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Damn. Once again, my hat is off to you.

You are the officer I want coming into my house after the perp.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-08-2008, 08:56 PM   #253
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

The reason I wanted to stick to what was in the video, and why I wanted to make “space” for the content to not be so easily dismissed as irrelevant to Aikido, is because Chris’ videos still deserve comment. I don’t think they have really gotten that up to now and I’d like to be able to offer some opinions.

Here’s my take on things…

In short, and sticking with my analogy, one should work to move from cutting off the eyelids to hitting with a stick – moving from Bodhidharma to Linchi. I do not think it is a coincidence that Linchi had way more students that reached Awakening than Bodhidharma did (even if he did exist – you pick). To make this a clear point: I think once you get a taste for how something is supposed to work, and you seemed to have already gotten that taste, the next step is to see what makes it work as it does in kihon waza. For this, one has to return to Kihon Waza – to uncover the “hidden” aspects that are pre-settled in basic training but that need to be analyzed under spontaneous conditions in order to be fully understood. In particular, I would like to humbly suggest finding spontaneous conditions that are more conducive to fostering the following two things: a spiraling maai and the ensuing leading of the attacker.

In my experience, these two things are the foremost elements that make any aiki move a high percentage move – which in turn makes any Aikido tactic used provide you with a high percentage of surviving at attack. This only becomes truer when weapons are involved – which is a vital concern to real-life encounters. However, more importantly for anyone trying to gain a spontaneity that is Aikido in nature, the spiraling maai and the ensuing capacity to lead the attacker along this geometry is really what is vital to performing Aikido tactics at their most fulfilled level of manifestation. This is what my experience has led me to conclude – as discovered when the intensity of the training is increased to the maximum possible and the limits placed upon what is allowable are reduced to as near as nothing as possible.

In my opinion, this could be the next thing you might want to try – not just doing techniques under less-cooperative conditions, but finding the spiraling maai and the ensuing capacity to lead the attacker upon that geometry under less-cooperative conditions.

Again, I offer this in all humility.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-08-2008, 10:01 PM   #254
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

In our kaeshi waza video, I believe you will begain to see these things unfolding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

In the practice we call kaeshi waza, we take a step back from our normal randori. The idea of this practice is to avoid using force to apply or counter technique. It is still a noncooperative practice, everyone is trying to avoid the throw/submission by movement and timing, just not using force. You can see a nice moment of leading and spiraling at 2:40 and 5:28, done non cooperatively, but not full force.

By lessening the pressure, using less force, strength and speed, more “aiki” movement arises. While this type of body being would be the preferred type for randori as well, pressure changes your “ideal” responses. Hopefully we will grow toward doing our randori like we do kaeshi waza, but it’s currently not possible.

It has been my experience that only familiarity with high stress situations can one learn to relax and perform “ideally”. By avoiding high stress attacks, with your attackers using brute force, and aggressive action, your are only prolonging your inability to relax under that type of pressure.

There are two classes at held at central valley Aikido every class night. The first is an hour of straight kihon waza. In this class we rehash what we had learned from the previous nights randori. There we look at the answers that the forms offer to the questions the randori asked. The second hour is spent on randori and free form drills, finding the questions that we will ask of the kihon waza the next class. We have just never put up any video of our kihon practice.

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Old 04-09-2008, 12:58 AM   #255
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post

It has been my experience that only familiarity with high stress situations can one learn to relax and perform "ideally". By avoiding high stress attacks, with your attackers using brute force, and aggressive action, your are only prolonging your inability to relax under that type of pressure.

There are two classes at held at central valley Aikido every class night. The first is an hour of straight kihon waza. In this class we rehash what we had learned from the previous nights randori. There we look at the answers that the forms offer to the questions the randori asked. The second hour is spent on randori and free form drills, finding the questions that we will ask of the kihon waza the next class. We have just never put up any video of our kihon practice.
I'll go with the second paragraph first: Yes, I agree, this is what we found the best. We too use the basic class to set up and be set up by what we reveal in the live training environments. This has been , by far, the most productive way of training for us as well.

For me, regarding the first paragraph, I have not found stress inoculation to be all that fruitful - but only because it is more situationally specific that most "experts" would have you believe. For me, only the traditional "emptying of self" allows for relaxation, aiki, etc., under all high intense, pressure-filled, conditions. I'm not trying to get used to anything. I'm trying to lose the "I".

take care, keep it up,
d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:50 AM   #256
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to get used to anything. I'm trying to lose the "I".
This would nicely solve the problem. Losing "I" and all the unfortunate attachments that come along with it should enable one to undertake any kind of practice with a fully functioning mind-mind/body.

That goal is even loftier then acclimation though. While it is a goal of mine, I'm pushing it farther down the road (loud groans from the enlightenment crowd).

Thanks for the support David.

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Old 04-10-2008, 01:08 AM   #257
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

I'll toss in a pragmatic comment for those interested in boring old technical considerations. To each his own.

These guys have a good, very simple firearm disarm system involving pretty much one move for any scenario. The knife defense system is also similarly simple and worth thinking about:

http://www.wartac.com/default.html

There isn't much to the knife defense, it's a very practical idea, and that is to immediately attack and control the head to prevent further attacks instead of trying to control the knife. When facing a knife, fishing for controlling the arms is too dangerous because you can't control the attacker's balance and prevent continued attacks until after you've already secured the arm. This is what leads to repeated slashes to the arms and torso. The head is far easier to grab, and it's hard to keep attacking with the knife when your head is being twisted and spiked into the ground like football. This video is sort of similar in principle in that there is almost immediate head control:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq869VFbHZI

The old marker and and plain white T-shirt drill is a good training tool. FWIW.
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Old 04-10-2008, 06:27 AM   #258
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Here's some interesting info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ZRygILt5NlY

If nothing else, see the end section where it shows actual knife wounds and lists actual people as victims of knife attacks.

From the middle, they point to this chart:

http://www.vrazvedka.ru/main/learnin...rn-01_10.shtml

Look for the Use of the Knife chart.

A cut on the inside of the arm, 1/2 inch down and you're looking at about 30 seconds before you pass out. And that's the longest timeframe.

Eh, anyway, this is more than likely my last post on this subject. If I haven't made my point by now ...

Mark
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Old 04-10-2008, 08:43 AM   #259
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

You have Mark, but I think David's point is made too...

He just shoots you.

Best,
Ron (and yes, I know the 19 - 20 - 21 foot rule. Apparently, so does David...)

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-10-2008, 09:58 AM   #260
tuturuhan
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

As a teacher, over the last thirty years, I have taught many special forces guys. The other night, one of my SEAL student (Peter) came home on leave before being deployed.

One of my more high/intermediate students was put with the SEAL student. After class I said, "be careful how you name someone".

If you give anyone more kudos because of his "name" you fail to assess the situation objectively."

Later that night, I took aside my advanced "teachers" and said:

1. Be careful of giving (Peter) more "ability" than he deserves.

2. You "can" beat him with the empty hand.

3. You "can" beat him with the knife, stick, spear, or any of the other ancient weapons.

4. However, you can't beat him with a gun, an automatic rifle, or any of the other weapons "you have not" trained in.

As such, in all situations, "we must be careful of what we name something", not because of the name...but because of our imaginations.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:27 AM   #261
MM
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
You have Mark, but I think David's point is made too...

He just shoots you.

Best,
Ron (and yes, I know the 19 - 20 - 21 foot rule. Apparently, so does David...)
LOL, uh yeah. Gun trumps knife unless knife trumps gun.

But, seriously, no, that wasn't my point. My whole point is that people are using a knife for training and they're being very complacent about it. You think anyone here would be complacent if someone used a live, sharpened katana and tried some "flowing" drills? How about substituting a live knife for those same flowing drills? The point is that the tanto isn't just some wooden unsharpened tool used to help "flow". It's supposed to be a safe version of the real thing to help assess your principles in motion and how they work. You move like you train. You react like you train. If you burn in hundreds of hours of complacent training with the tanto now, what do you expect will happen when you encounter the real thing?

Relook at that video and see the cuts that were made on a body. See the guts hanging out? You want to be complacent in your training about that? How about the 1/2" down artery running alongside the inner arm that only takes a slight cut to sever? 30 seconds without help and you are done. Period. End of life. Or a cut to the neck and sever the artery there. 5 seconds. Anyone think they can end the fight, call 911, and survive until the ambulance arrives with those kinds of cuts?

And that doesn't begin to cover the cuts/stabs/etc that are life enders, no saves. A tanto isn't just some tool to add to training to induce "stress", add "flow", or play with. Whenever someone picks up a tanto, the thought should be one foot razor blade designed to kill -- for both tori and uke. I dunno about other people, but I'd rather not have complacency in my training. My life might depend on my training. Ichi go ichi e. Once time, one meeting. That's particularly important in knife work.

Then again, I don't think I'm doing aikido yet. I'm more aikibudo right now, so YMMV.

All IMO,
Mark
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:35 AM   #262
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Mark, David answered these points in an earlier post. Very well I might add. I think as a police officer, he is very well aware of what a knife can do. And nothing he said in his answers deserves the label of "play". There is nothing in his training that I would label complacent either. It is a different focus.

Please note that I am differentiating still between David's answers and Chris's answers. Though I suspect David may be where Chris wants to go.

I also suspect we may just disagree on this one. I feel David has answered your points and you do not, and that is fine.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-10-2008, 10:38 AM   #263
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Joseph, I see your point, and it is a good one. I am basing my estimation of David on more than just the label of Policeman. I am basing it on many years of interacting with him online. And watching how he moves, how he seems to train, and hearing his thoughts on these things.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:04 AM   #264
MM
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Mark, David answered these points in an earlier post. Very well I might add. I think as a police officer, he is very well aware of what a knife can do. And nothing he said in his answers deserves the label of "play". There is nothing in his training that I would label complacent either. It is a different focus.

Please note that I am differentiating still between David's answers and Chris's answers. Though I suspect David may be where Chris wants to go.

I also suspect we may just disagree on this one. I feel David has answered your points and you do not, and that is fine.

Best,
Ron
There's always room for disagreement.

And, given some time, my thoughts will change.

Mark
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:12 PM   #265
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
As a teacher, over the last thirty years, I have taught many special forces guys. The other night, one of my SEAL student (Peter) came home on leave before being deployed.

One of my more high/intermediate students was put with the SEAL student. After class I said, "be careful how you name someone".

If you give anyone more kudos because of his "name" you fail to assess the situation objectively."

Later that night, I took aside my advanced "teachers" and said:

1. Be careful of giving (Peter) more "ability" than he deserves.

2. You "can" beat him with the empty hand.

3. You "can" beat him with the knife, stick, spear, or any of the other ancient weapons.

4. However, you can't beat him with a gun, an automatic rifle, or any of the other weapons "you have not" trained in.

As such, in all situations, "we must be careful of what we name something", not because of the name...but because of our imaginations.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
Interesting philosphy but it leaves me a bit curious...I can't speak for the SEALS but as a former member of the Army's Airborne Rangers and a Reserve Special Operations Soldier for 15+ years I can say we did allot of work with bayonets and other live blades. Of course they were no where near the Asian Knife Arts or Japanese Koryu in terms of thier syllubus but we sure knew how to train with live blades and most of us supplimented the Fairburn Sykes (sorry spelling) training with work in Silat which was bred into the curriculam from our brothers in the Phillipines Army and Marines...

My question is do you wait "two years" to train your "Special" Students with a live blade as well knowing most of them are going into harms way???

Just Curious

William Hazen
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:51 PM   #266
tuturuhan
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
William Hazen wrote: View Post
Interesting philosphy but it leaves me a bit curious...I can't speak for the SEALS but as a former member of the Army's Airborne Rangers and a Reserve Special Operations Soldier for 15+ years I can say we did allot of work with bayonets and other live blades. Of course they were no where near the Asian Knife Arts or Japanese Koryu in terms of thier syllubus but we sure knew how to train with live blades and most of us supplimented the Fairburn Sykes (sorry spelling) training with work in Silat which was bred into the curriculam from our brothers in the Phillipines Army and Marines...

My question is do you wait "two years" to train your "Special" Students with a live blade as well knowing most of them are going into harms way???

Just Curious

William Hazen
William,

Already you have heard opinions regarding "what you would want a police officer to do or not do" when entering a house.

Likewise, if you are teaching someone in the armed forces who will be in combat, you must discern what is needed given one's capabilities.

Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.

What most soldiers need in combat is something simple. He does not have time to train everyday, year after year. So, "thrusting with the knife is appropriate". But, I would prefer that soldiers learn marksmenship with a gun. Its a matter of time and resources.

Now, once the guy learns how to be a "snipper', (i.e. breathing, control of the hormones, adrenelin and cortisol his trained ability to control his body gives him the ability to transfer his skill to the "finesse of the knife".

Because, I am daily, I have the luxury to slowly teach my students how to tame and control the secreting of the aforesaid hormones. Two years is an arbitrary number. In other words, the average man will not have control over his emotions and will have difficulty with "fine motor movements" (e.g. cutting with a scissors and doing detail work with their fingers) Women, on the other hand naturally are able to use fine motor skills. Statistically, women too will secrete lower levels of adrenlin when faced with "fight or flight".

The result is that I teach women the "live blade" almost on day one of their study with me and my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:04 PM   #267
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Hi Joseph,

Is it "my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse."

or

"my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse under stress.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:10 PM   #268
tuturuhan
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hi Joseph,

Is it "my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse."

or

"my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse under stress.

Best,
Ron
Hi Ron,

Interesting thought. Do you put them under stress or do you relieve stress?

Do we learn from stressful situations? Do we learn from by taking away stress?

My opinion, is that we must do both. (You made me think...aha...and as such I got some dopamine. Thank you

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-10-2008, 01:11 PM   #269
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quite welcome...though I'm not sure I understand the answer yet.

Let me ponder my question some more, and maybe we'll meet in a bit.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 04-10-2008, 03:33 PM   #270
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Joseph Arriola wrote: View Post
William,

Already you have heard opinions regarding "what you would want a police officer to do or not do" when entering a house.

Likewise, if you are teaching someone in the armed forces who will be in combat, you must discern what is needed given one's capabilities.

Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.

What most soldiers need in combat is something simple. He does not have time to train everyday, year after year. So, "thrusting with the knife is appropriate". But, I would prefer that soldiers learn marksmenship with a gun. Its a matter of time and resources.

Now, once the guy learns how to be a "snipper', (i.e. breathing, control of the hormones, adrenelin and cortisol his trained ability to control his body gives him the ability to transfer his skill to the "finesse of the knife".

Because, I am daily, I have the luxury to slowly teach my students how to tame and control the secreting of the aforesaid hormones. Two years is an arbitrary number. In other words, the average man will not have control over his emotions and will have difficulty with "fine motor movements" (e.g. cutting with a scissors and doing detail work with their fingers) Women, on the other hand naturally are able to use fine motor skills. Statistically, women too will secrete lower levels of adrenlin when faced with "fight or flight".

The result is that I teach women the "live blade" almost on day one of their study with me and my men students have to prove to me during the "two years" their capability for finesse.

Best,
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
I think I understand what you're saying Mr. Arriola but I am not sure you answered the Question....Most (if not all) of the members of the SEALS, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Force Recon and the like are already trained to "operate with extreme finesse when under extreme duress." So I guess you're suggesting you "waive" the two year requirement?

Indeed I first become familiar with this type training during my time on active duty (and in fact more than 50% of our training was done under such condtions everyday I can only imagine what the OPTEMPO of all 3 Ranger Batts is today God Bless Them).

Second...How do you simulate operating under extreme duress with extreme finesse with a live blade and what are the benefits if the end result is still to kill/disable as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Under Duress wouldn't you want your students to "keep it simple" and focus on basic movements ?

Respectfully,

WIlliam Hazen
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Old 04-10-2008, 05:42 PM   #271
tuturuhan
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

[quote=William Hazen;203462]I think I understand what you're saying Mr. Arriola but I am not sure you answered the Question....Most (if not all) of the members of the SEALS, Rangers, Green Berets, Marine Force Recon and the like are already trained to "operate with extreme finesse when under extreme duress." So I guess you're suggesting you "waive" the two year requirement?

Indeed I first become familiar with this type training during my time on active duty (and in fact more than 50% of our training was done under such condtions everyday I can only imagine what the OPTEMPO of all 3 Ranger Batts is today God Bless Them).

Second...How do you simulate operating under extreme duress with extreme finesse with a live blade and what are the benefits if the end result is still to kill/disable as quickly and efficiently as possible?

Under Duress wouldn't you want your students to "keep it simple" and focus on basic movements ?

William,

This is a point of contention. What some people view as "extreme finesse under extreme duress" may not be viewed as extreme finesse by people like me.

Early in my training, I thought I was among the "best of the best". Later, I realized I had simply scratched the surface. I am now 52 years old and I am still honing my skills. Everyday, I seek to see something that makes me better, physically, intellectually and spiritually.

Fortunately, I had teachers who in their 50's 60's and 70's could still take out the "physically robust twenty-somethings". These are men (and women) who I continue to follow in concept.

Just because a SEAL, Green Beret, Marine Recon etc has been trained and given a "name" after a "one years" worth of training does not automatically make him a master. Just because someone has received a certificate or even a PH'd does not make that person automatically the leading expert. It takes a lifetime to hone the skill I am talking about.

As to your second question, I don't mean to be vague or to give you a "moral to the story" tale. However, extreme duress comes in many shapes and forms. You lose a job, you go through a divorce, your child dies, you cheat on your wife...you kill a man and his family by firing him.

An ordinary life alone is enough for us to learn the lessons of duress. However, to answer your question specifically, "you must get cut and you must get stabbed" to really learn the knife.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola

Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
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Old 04-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #272
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Joseph Arriola Wrote...This is a point of contention. What some people view as "extreme finesse under extreme duress" may not be viewed as extreme finesse by people like me.
Understood and I agree

Quote:
Early in my training, I thought I was among the "best of the best". Later, I realized I had simply scratched the surface. I am now 52 years old and I am still honing my skills. Everyday, I seek to see something that makes me better, physically, intellectually and spiritually.

Fortunately, I had teachers who in their 50's 60's and 70's could still take out the "physically robust twenty-somethings". These are men (and women) who I continue to follow in concept.
Me too... As Suzuki Roshi who once wrote a book on the subject titled in part "Beginners Mind"

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Just because a SEAL, Green Beret, Marine Recon etc has been trained and given a "name" after a "one years" worth of training does not automatically make him a master. Just because someone has received a certificate or even a PH'd does not make that person automatically the leading expert. It takes a lifetime to hone the skill I am talking about.
I did not mean to suggest that someone who has graduated from one of those programs automatically becomes a Master. What I meant was that in order to graduate a man has to continually demonstrate the ability to perform any task under extreme physical and emotional duress. I define duress in this case as it was tasked to me. "To complete the mission/task at hand in the presence of extreme physical danger." This kind of training by the way is only the beginning. All graduates of these courses must continually demonstrate thier ability to operate under extreme duress or they are kicked out of thier respective units. I graduated from RIP( now called ROP or the Ranger Orientation Program) with 25 others. Three years later there were only two of us left with the rest getting injured or kicked out of our unit for failure to maintain the Ranger Standard. I suspect it is the same with any Special Operations Unit and may even be "harsher" since we are at War. Failure to perform is simply not tolorated.

Quote:
As to your second question, I don't mean to be vague or to give you a "moral to the story" tale. However, extreme duress comes in many shapes and forms. You lose a job, you go through a divorce, your child dies, you cheat on your wife...you kill a man and his family by firing him.
I agree in part. I am going through a sudden divorce and watching my mom slowly die from terminal cancer. However these two situations are not causing me to experiance "fight or flight" syndrome and perhaps that is due to my previous training and demonstrated ability (as we say) to drive on to the Ranger Objective. Who knows.

Quote:
An ordinary life alone is enough for us to learn the lessons of duress. However, to answer your question specifically, "you must get cut and you must get stabbed" to really learn the knife.

Sincerely
Joseph T. Oliva Arriola
That has been my experiance as well though perhaps not anywhere to the degree you have experianced and taught it. In the context of this discussion I am just trying to exemplify "Beginners Mind" and learn from you a little bit about your training methods and the reasons behind them.

Respectfully,

William Hazen

Last edited by Aikibu : 04-10-2008 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 04-10-2008, 09:03 PM   #273
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Joseph wrote:

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Most soldiers, most black belts, can't really defend themselves with open hand or with knife or baton. This takes years and years to develop "finesse in killing". Don't get me wrong like the gun anyone can pick up a knife and thrust with it.
What do you mean by "finesse in killing"?

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Old 04-10-2008, 09:26 PM   #274
senshincenter
 
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Regarding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq869VFbHZI

Here’s my problem with the video – stating it here so as to tie this in with the last suggestion I made to Chris. (i.e. The point about spiraling distance and leading)

First and foremost, the moves shown in the video are “big man” moves. The mass and force necessary to have them work require that the attack have less of one or both. For me, that’s no way to design a self-defense or a killing paradigm. For example, no one would ever advertise, “Join now! Come learn to defend yourself against smaller people!” Jeesh – who would show up for that?

Second, the moves, regarding police work, demonstrate by the tactical options chosen that a police officer is NOT a weapons-man first. He/she is! Rather than training folks to pull their weapons as a last resort, officers need to be trained that empty hand fighting is an “f-up” you try and get out of – so you can pull your weapons. Why? Because this is life or death struggles – not sport. For officers, in my opinion, empty-hand fighting is the last resort. Running into to someone, closing the gap like that, guarantees that you will at worst not be able to draw your weapons or at the best find yourself in the middle of a weapon-retention battle. Both are terrible options for law enforcement personnel.

For me then, not just as an officer, but as someone that carries weapons, this is no way to fight a knife. This is only the way to fight a knife when you “f-up” and you can’t find your way back to your primary strategies.

Regarding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRygILt5NlY

As I said, I agree with the position that the standard knife fighting drills – even the ones we “did” in our own video – are very far away from how one should fight a knife or fight with a knife. I stated this earlier.

However, the reaction time theory proposed in the video is completely flawed, as it only pertains to the reaction time of an officer that stands still and attempts to draw from that position. Standing still is NOT the way to fight with a firearm. Anyone that does that and/or only trains like that is someone, in my opinion, that did not move passed the basic firearm restrictions that are placed on the lowest common denominator officer in the Academy.

Additionally, the officers in the video are only using level one holsters – another sign in my opinion that one is not gearing him/herself for urban combat while wearing a firearm, etc. In our video, Michael is wearing a level three holster and I’m wearing a level four holster. We are getting our weapons out fine once we drop the arbitrary range restriction of standing still. It’s not the knife that is the problem in the video, it’s the standing still restriction that is making the “reaction time theory” look valid.

I have never argued that the knife is not a lethal weapon – it is, and that is one reason why I do not stand still, rush in against folks that are my size or bigger, or not be able to know the difference between real and fake knife usage when facing a knife in real life. Toward that same point, part of fighting with a weapon, say a firearm for example, is knowing how to keep the situation prime for its implementation. For example, take that last section where the officer comes in on the guy attempting a burglary. What’s with the walking right up and saying “Police!” – and then you keep walking into knife range and right out of firearm range – what?! Last time we came up on that exact scene – only it was night – our weapons were already out and my senior deputy literally – LITERALLY – scared the crap out of the suspect, “SHOW ME YOUR HANDS NOW!” He never saw us coming, and the odds were so placed in our favor because of our approach and positioningthat we kept the firearm as the lethal weapon in the engagement.

For me the video shows not the lethality of the knife but the ineptness of fighting with a firearm in police work. That’s no way to make a point but the one saying the officers in the video need to re-evaluate their training assumptions and the practices they derive from them.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 04-10-2008, 11:27 PM   #275
Aikibu
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Re: Knife Randori Videos

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Joseph wrote:

What do you mean by "finesse in killing"?
Good Luck with that one Sir.

William Hazen
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