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Old 04-02-2008, 05:29 PM   #176
rob_liberti
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Whether aikido, or knives, I do not see that kind of deterrence model as really operating, at kind of a fundamental level. And that actually encapsulates my basic question with this approach. Although, perhaps I have your meaning wrong.

The rule of knives is "What knife?" Never let 'em see the knife. Aikido is much more in that mode of budo. To my mind, aikido is not interested in having distance respected by an attacker -- to the contrary, in fact. Inviting (or even prompting) attack within my sphere, and therefore placing him closer to the limits of his own. The strategy of deterrence does not seem really applicable to proper use of knives or aikido.
I was more considering the kamikazi type attackers. I like the idea of being able to hit them with a fight-ending strike if need be. Internally-powered striking is just a power boost. Having a knife also give you more power to inflict damage. They both have the similar deterrence effect on me. I simply don't want either to happen to me. The more ability you have to put an attacker in that kind of mindset where they don't want to get hit by you, it seems like the easier it would be for things that more closely resemble waza to happen.

I agree with the move first after he moves idea. That seems to jive a lot better with the internal-aiki training I've been doing.

Also, I've been asked to elaborate on my previous comment about being careful what you burn in. I find that people have a tendency to burn in what is more immediately effective which is rarely what will be best when you are much older. There are levels of this. Some people burn in tightness and muscles. Some burn in external techniques. Some people burn in the move your center first and then the rest of your body - which tends to wreak havoc on joints as they grow older. I'm trying to burn in a full body movement. I want to use 100% of my weight (in general) plus any momentum bonuses if I want. I find myself re-learning how to do very basic movements like swinging a sword. If I tried to apply this to fighting right now, I'd be a mess and falling back to what I could access quickly to save myself would be working against what I'm trying to burn in to myself. That's the danger of the competitive model - it tends to burn things in before I would would imagine anyone can possibly have a chance to learn to move in the integrated way I am looking to move myself. (As previously stated, the cooperative model of course devoid of the ruthless self-criticism and good instruction of integrated teachers results in a different type of delusion even though it is most likely unintentional on all counts.)

Lastly, while I agree that we should consider effectiveness in aikido class - I've been annoyed in the past by many a judo person trying to tell me about what's what with aikido. I never go to judo class and do that. I like judo. I like aikido. I know most aikido is more delusional than judo but make no mistake, judo is generally delusional too - just a bit less so than aikido. If you don't believe me, go find Dan Harden and try your best judo throws on him.

I'm really not trying to be a Dan Harden fanboy. I'm actually a Bill Gleason sensei fanboy. He just dropped the weight of a building on me using arms that that resembled wet noodles. I have NO IDEA what he is doing to do that and I think I'm supposed to understand that by now. Oh well. Maybe next class I'll have the breakthrough in understanding that I'm looking for regarding this.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 04-02-2008 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 04-02-2008, 07:24 PM   #177
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I was more considering the kamikazi type attackers. I like the idea of being able to hit them with a fight-ending strike if need be. Internally-powered striking is just a power boost. Having a knife also give you more power to inflict damage. They both have the similar deterrence effect on me.
I should perhaps qualify my point: In aikido, as a purely strategic matter, I do not try to deter, but I am perpetually deterred. But then, I would not be attacking, (unless to prompt a sooner attack already intended). That is, the premise of the art seems to me to be that one never attacks overt strength. Thus, overt strength always deters me where it is manifest, but there are always strengths that can be sapped that are not yet manifest, and weaknesses also that can be enlarged.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I agree with the move first after he moves idea. That seems to jive a lot better with the internal-aiki training I've been doing. ... to elaborate on my previous comment about being careful what you burn in. I find that people have a tendency to burn in what is more immediately effective which is rarely what will be best when you are much older.
I have a sixteen year old son who is probably a good bit stronger than I am am now -- if --- IF -- he knew how to use what he has. Of course, he doesn't yet have the focus or discipline to realize it, but that will com e. I tend, actually, to think that it grows in inverse proportion to the lapse of physical power. (I'm forty-two so I am bridging this particular chasm at the moment).

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm really not trying to be a Dan Harden fanboy. I'm actually a Bill Gleason sensei fanboy. He just dropped the weight of a building on me using arms that that resembled wet noodles. I have NO IDEA what he is doing to do that and I think I'm supposed to understand that by now. Oh well.
I think I might like Dan. Hard to tell. That is irrelevant of course. Wet noodles, huh? Same reason getting hit with a wet towel hurts more than a dry one. The mass and velocity of the wet towel go in one direction or the other -- either into the target or reverberating back into you -- the thing is to feel ["listening jin" Mike Sigman might call it -- I learned it as furitama] to make sure that everything is falling the way of the target in an irrevocable sequence of form. That ineffable but readily identifiable shape is everywhere -- in all well performed martial arts -- aiki just aspires to its particularly devoted exploration -- and exploitation.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-03-2008, 06:11 AM   #178
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I was more considering the kamikazi type attackers. I like the idea of being able to hit them with a fight-ending strike if need be. Internally-powered striking is just a power boost. Having a knife also give you more power to inflict damage. They both have the similar deterrence effect on me. I simply don't want either to happen to me. The more ability you have to put an attacker in that kind of mindset where they don't want to get hit by you, it seems like the easier it would be for things that more closely resemble waza to happen.

I agree with the move first after he moves idea. That seems to jive a lot better with the internal-aiki training I've been doing.

Also, I've been asked to elaborate on my previous comment about being careful what you burn in. I find that people have a tendency to burn in what is more immediately effective which is rarely what will be best when you are much older. There are levels of this. Some people burn in tightness and muscles. Some burn in external techniques. Some people burn in the move your center first and then the rest of your body - which tends to wreak havoc on joints as they grow older. I'm trying to burn in a full body movement. I want to use 100% of my weight (in general) plus any momentum bonuses if I want. I find myself re-learning how to do very basic movements like swinging a sword. If I tried to apply this to fighting right now, I'd be a mess and falling back to what I could access quickly to save myself would be working against what I'm trying to burn in to myself. That's the danger of the competitive model - it tends to burn things in before I would would imagine anyone can possibly have a chance to learn to move in the integrated way I am looking to move myself. (As previously stated, the cooperative model of course devoid of the ruthless self-criticism and good instruction of integrated teachers results in a different type of delusion even though it is most likely unintentional on all counts.)

Lastly, while I agree that we should consider effectiveness in aikido class - I've been annoyed in the past by many a judo person trying to tell me about what's what with aikido. I never go to judo class and do that. I like judo. I like aikido. I know most aikido is more delusional than judo but make no mistake, judo is generally delusional too - just a bit less so than aikido. If you don't believe me, go find Dan Harden and try your best judo throws on him.

I'm really not trying to be a Dan Harden fanboy. I'm actually a Bill Gleason sensei fanboy. He just dropped the weight of a building on me using arms that that resembled wet noodles. I have NO IDEA what he is doing to do that and I think I'm supposed to understand that by now. Oh well. Maybe next class I'll have the breakthrough in understanding that I'm looking for regarding this.

Rob
There is a trick to making judo throws work that they don't teach you in judo. It is an ancient Japanese secret. Improves the success rate event against great ki about 95%.

Punch the guy really hard in the face first

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-03-2008, 09:53 AM   #179
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
There is a trick to making judo throws work that they don't teach you in judo. It is an ancient Japanese secret. Improves the success rate event against great ki about 95%.

Punch the guy really hard in the face first
Sounds like aikido!

Really great discussion, thanks everyone!

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-03-2008, 01:21 PM   #180
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
There is a trick to making judo throws work that they don't teach you in judo. It is an ancient Japanese secret. Improves the success rate event against great ki about 95%.

Punch the guy really hard in the face first
Aah! -- But that would make it aikido ... It's 90% atemi ya know! (Darn Ron for getting that first!)

A more practical point: A typically trained punch can be delivered in something like 200-300 ms -- the fastest strikes measured (Lee, Inosanto, Bruno) are reputed to be as fast as 90-100 ms. The human VOLUNTARY reaction time ranges from about 150-300 in a normal distribution centered on about 225 ms. See --http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Conversely, the involuntary "stretch" reflex and its inverse the "claspknife" reflexes are on the order of 10-40 ms ( measured with EMG). These are in-yo complement reflexes generated by changes in the internal strain states of the muscles and fascia. They respond to cyclic stimulation. (can you say "funetori" ?) This is also related to the tonic vibration reflex (can you say "furitama" ?)

I'll leave my MORE technical opinions and observations for my fellow pen-protector set, along with a pertinent training anecdote ...
[spoiler] Also important relationships exist between these and the typical postures of aikdo. Proper tegatana provokes the tautened rounded-out "upper cross" of tension sometimes spoken of -- this is also proper ukemi posture for the upper body structure. It is also happens to be precisely the tension posture of the Jendrassik maneuver tap reflex test (see here: http://www.rettungsforum.com/php_fil...der/jendra.gif ) http://www.qwantz.com/shirt_jendrassik.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jendrassik_maneuver

This reflex test shows the directly connected input/output in that motor-sensory channel with a monosynaptic connection to those stretch/clasp reflexes in the legs -- also on the order of about 10-40 ms.

The Jendrassik maneuver reflex action provokes an involuntary stepping motion in the lower limbs, loaded and unloaded.
See -- http://www.springerlink.com/content/n44822007475w64q/

Cyclic motion and vibration can be used to improve balance. http://www.sciencenetlinks.com/sci_update.cfm?DocID=195
Equally, they may also be used to impair it.

Used defensively, this allows hostile inputs to move the whole body reflexively, and if trained in the right way to the inherently advantageous position -- as O Sensei said "I am already behind him... " Used offensively, the use of projected cyclic action (in-yo ho) generated by these reflexive motions, INTENTIONALLY triggered, can equally provoke these responses disadvantageously in the opponent, (aiki-age, aiki-sage, as examples).

Things like funetori strengthen the pathways of these related monosynaptic reflexes in certain patterns, so that when used in this way the result of input (of a high rate, but not necessarily large) in one channel is output in the other channel -- but instead of as an uncoordinated reflex -- it becomes the same coordinated manner as the funetori/tekubifuri/furitama cyclic form drives the structure mechanically. Furitama allows one to improve the sensing pathways for these inputs and allows the internal connections to become more sensitive.

That, with the connections of good posture implicit in the normal practice of aikido is what one wants to "burn in." Not in voluntary "to get this -- do this" choices about action, that is more typical of sparring and drills to increase speed in that voluntary timing.

No amount of work on "timing" in a polysynaptic reaction will beat a monosynaptic reaction. Polysynaptic activity travels from the point of action to the brain for some processing, and then back to actuate the require neromuscular bits. Monosynaptic action goes, literally, from one sensory neuron, across one synapse, to one action neuron, no mediation. Work on "drilling in" the rhythm of coordinated action at various tempos, however, as is more typical of solo and cooperative practice, "burns in" the right cascade of relaxed body mechanics. It has to be relaxed body mechanics because anything else involves polysynaptic neural guidance.

When monsynaptic reflexes are triggered, its cascade just flows down hill -- which can either be completely chaotic or highly ordered. That neuromuscular circuit acts faster than voluntary muscle is able to do. Voluntary choice pathways are neurologically too slow - as shown by the punching speeds (polysynaptic activity) 90-200 ms, on a good day, as compared to the monosynaptic action of a coordinated reflex of around 30 ms average. That is nearly an order of magnitude in difference.

As I was taught, techniques should always strive be done at the last possible moment where they would still work. That ensures that one's reaction will not be premature, and perhaps unwisely taken. In a practice session two years ago, one of my seniors was training and using me to demonstrate some point of ukemi to my partner -- at some serious speed which was the point of his demonstration. That went fine and I thought he had finished, and had turned back to my partner, when his renewed attack came out of nowhere -- next thing I know I am trying to pull my hand back from hitting him in the nose as I had already cleared his arm out of the way in my, quite literally, "twitched" irimi motion. It started before I realized I was doing it. Had I not spent that half-cycle of the twitch rhythm actually trying to pull my strike back, I'd have easily fractured his nose, instead of just bending it a bit. I was as surprised as he was, quite frankly. I really don't think there is any way to safely train that way, for operating in that mode, other than what we do cooperatively.
[/spoiler]
It also helps explain perhaps why O Sensei said that full-on aikido was too dangerous to demonstrate, and why that may have been more than mere bragadocio. If the monsynaptic reflex circuit is tripped and the coordinated action is built in by training, then the action occurs faster than one can usually stop it voluntarily.

That observation gives new perspective to this doka:

"He who in every situation perceives the truth with resignation need never draw his sword in haste."

From this perspective, the point may be that in cooperative training one does no harm one cannot stop in overreacting to a non-threat, as I very nearly did in that trainingg incident. That is one thing, that honing of the ichi-go, ichi-e sensibility, in any event, that sparring really does not seem to be intended to work on. I am not saying that some aspects of sparring do not result in better monosynaptic coordination of some very important movements, as clearly they can and do, as with speed bags in boxing, wrestling or jujitsu sprawls and others. But the sytematic whole-body coordination of this in offensive and defensive terms seems to be the primary domain of aiki -- in whatever version it is found.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-03-2008 at 01:25 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-03-2008, 02:26 PM   #181
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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I was as surprised as he was, quite frankly. I really don't think there is any way to safely train that way, for operating in that mode, other than what we do cooperatively.
The few times I've felt what I think you are describing, it was very scary, and usually, some very scary things happened. I really don't know how to safely handle that full on mode yet. Especially when changing partners. Being uke specific and going from a lighter, smaller uke to a gorilla isn't the problem...it's going the other way and realizing too late that you just put some poor slob into orbit!

Best,
Ron (not that I can call it up at will yet everytime, or even often, anyway...)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-03-2008, 03:20 PM   #182
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
The few times I've felt what I think you are describing, it was very scary, and usually, some very scary things happened. I really don't know how to safely handle that full on mode yet. Especially when changing partners. Being uke specific and going from a lighter, smaller uke to a gorilla isn't the problem...it's going the other way and realizing too late that you just put some poor slob into orbit!
It scared me, too. I have thought a lot about it since, and the best I can decide is that weapons training was the likely key to not flattening my buddy's face in that circumstance. Particularly, paired awase, or kumitachi/kumijo. That hones the precision of action well outside the space of one's own frame, making the margin of precision available to work safely without doing injury far larger when working without a weapon. Being closer, absolute closure time is shorter in empty hand. Weapons work really emphasizes, and enlarges, the patterns and rhythms that seem to be the forms of this cascade -- regardless of range or absolute timing, and once found they are more easily tightened down into the taijutsu. Sparring does not allow this "scale magnification," if you will. My impression of Saito's bukiwaza relating to the taijutsu was consistent with these points, as is Saotome's in a slightly different way. I have trained both, at various points.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:51 AM   #183
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Sounds like aikido!

Really great discussion, thanks everyone!

Best,
Ron
I'd say it's more like ju-jutsu. I mean there is more to good aikido then just good judo + some punching....right?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:05 AM   #184
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
I'm really not trying to be a Dan Harden fanboy. I'm actually a Bill Gleason sensei fanboy. He just dropped the weight of a building on me using arms that that resembled wet noodles. I have NO IDEA what he is doing to do that and I think I'm supposed to understand that by now. Oh well. Maybe next class I'll have the breakthrough in understanding that I'm looking for regarding this.
Rob
Start from ryote tori....... for the heavy arms.... have uke hold your arms up and then uke just drops your arms ....if your arms do not fall easily to your sides... you need to relax more.
When uke holds your arms up again let your arms rest in uke's hands like you are resting your arms on a table...that is the beginning of making your arms very heavy. Practice until you can drop your arms without any hesitation.
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 04-04-2008 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:15 AM   #185
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I'm totally into training that attitude. But my approach is to develop that from the position where Ron is suggesting - that my distance is respected empty-handed as if I had a knife.
Hi Rob!

I definitely agree here. One of the people I train with was able to go to Mike Sigman's seminar. He came away with a very profound respect for empty hand power. LOL.

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
I really do not know how I will bring MMA to my aikido classes. But I'm sure like everyone else I'll bring what I have to class. I have to really clarify certain principles - which I'll be looking to my teachers for - and then I assume I'll just try to bring into my normal class more an more things that I think will help. And I'm quite sure that real fighting can be taught with aikido principles in mind - with no competition. I'm not sure what happens when BOTH uke and nage have strong internal skills and MMA experience and are protecting their aggressors. It will be interesting. But I really expect I'll find out sooner than later.

Rob
Wishing you the best of luck integrating your new training with aikido. For me, I found that I had a very hard time doing that. So, I'm stepping back from mainline aikido training until I can do some of the internal stuff a bit more dynamically. Maybe another year or two. I'm hoping just a year before I can reintegrate it back into aikido training.

But, having the glimpse of things that I have now ... I'm not entirely sure i'll be able to go back to mainline aikido training.

Back on topic, I really think aikido needs some aspect of sparring. And I think that the way the Jiyushinkai does their randori is the best I've seen so far in the aikido world. IMO anyway.

Mark
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:38 AM   #186
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Bill Danosky wrote: View Post
Aikido techniques can be highly effective if repetitive training has stored them in your repertoire and you use them automatically. In a real life situation usually you have to think back afterward to even know what technique you used.

I think it doesn't work if you try to think ahead what you're going to do next. To me, mushin (no mind) means to train until it's "in you" and trust yourself to react the right way if you want to win.

I'd also humbly sugget that aikidoka get into trouble when they make a pretense of using only Aikido in a situation, and thereby eliminate all the non-Aikido technique that might work perfectly. Do you guys think so?
Well, erg, I guess. As Rob mentioned a couple of posts later, it depends on what you're burning in. But, I also think that people get too hung up on "technique". They think that in sparring, randori, jiyu waza, etc. that they're going to get this or that technique, even if it doesn't look as pretty as the one they practice. And I think that's wrong.

There are two types of training that most of us do. Warm up exercises and techniques. But, they aren't different in their aims of working on principles. Both should be working on principles but the technique sort of overshadows all. It isn't about the technique at all. It's about using the warm up exercises to work principles in static situations. So, those wrist stretches most of us do shouldn't be stretching the wrist at all, but stretching the suit. Funekogi undo isn't about rowing, it's about letting the ground be in your hands as they go forward and reverse. (There's more to it than just that.)

In that same manner, techniques are merely exercises working principles in dynamic situations. So, katatekosadori ikkyo isn't about getting the first pin from a cross hand grab. It's about putting your wrist being your dantien, having ki at the point of contact, putting ground into your wrist -- all the while you are moving. The technique is just an exercise to let one work on these principles in motion to train the body while moving.

So, then, when you get to randori, jiyuwaza, sparring, whatever, your body is trained and does what it should. There are no techniques but principles in motion. Sure, you might actually get a technique but it isn't anything you're working towards. You're just trying to keep all the principles intact while under pressure (attack, moving, adjusting, etc) from another person.

That's why sparring in some form is good for aikido. It doesn't have to follow a BJJ sparring model, UFC, etc. But there should be something.

All IMO anyway,
Mark
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:57 AM   #187
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Start from ryote tori....... for the heavy arms.... have uke hold your arms up and then uke just drops your arms ....if your arms do not fall easily to your sides... you need to relax more.
When uke holds your arms up again let your arms rest in uke's hands like you are resting your arms on a table...that is the beginning of making your arms very heavy. Practice until you can drop your arms without any hesitation.
Mary
Or how about this?

Picture chain mail.
http://blog.makezine.com/chain_mail.jpg

Picture something like that all over your body -- in other words, let's call it fascia.

Now, it's all linked together. But, picture those links like this:
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPrevie....cfm/ID/223692

Spread apart but yet interconnected such that a tug at a link at your foot also moves the link at the top of your head.

For it to work, your shoulder joints can't be disconnected. That's one of the biggest problems.

Now, picture your hands out front like you said in ryote tori and someone is holding them. (I like to put both hands on someones chest because working close to uke's body is easier than working out at arm's length, but whatever).

Inside your body, you're going to pull all those links together as tightly as possible. BUT, you're feet are anchored to the ground. So, when those links compress together, the only option is to do it downward.

No muscle groups should fire. Shoulder joint has to be connected. Body is whole body. Everything is integrated in a chain mail suit over the entire body.

Draw down. Pull the links together into the ground.

Mark
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:32 AM   #188
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Start from ryote tori....... for the heavy arms.... have uke hold your arms up and then uke just drops your arms ....if your arms do not fall easily to your sides... you need to relax more.
When uke holds your arms up again let your arms rest in uke's hands like you are resting your arms on a table...that is the beginning of making your arms very heavy. Practice until you can drop your arms without any hesitation.
The mechanics of what is occurring are fairly straightforward, but a bit spooky, too. Basically you are taking the momentum of a slight drop ( or merely a sway, in some circumstances) in your center and transferring it by angular momentum (progressive rotations like a snapping whip) to the end of your arms where that angular momentum (mass transfer) is then concentrated. It is a challenge not of power, but coordination. It won't work unless the connections are completely free to rotate -- like a chain or whip.

The mechanical principles are described here: http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1367-2...jp5_1_045.html

and experimentally shown here: http://online.redwoods.cc.ca.us/inst...finalpaper.pdf
and here: http://math.arizona.edu/~ura/031/Taf...son/Report.pdf
The force at the end of the extension of the chain in the first ctied experiment ends up being five times that of its mere weight. This time series photo illustrates the principle in action:
Click image for larger version

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The first photo shows the ball and the chain tip even at the top, the second shows the chain passing the ball in falling 159 ms after the drop (exceeding the acceleration of gravity, with no additional input of energy); The third shows the ball well above the chain tip 214 ms after the drop. Doing a little proportional math, ball has fallen only about 53% of the length of the whole chain, while the chain tip in the last photo has fallen about 65% of its total length. Proportionally -- 1::1.23.

Assume the weight of the ball and the chain the same. Doing the effective energy calculation (m/2* v^2) the masses are the same so the variable is the velocity. If the ball at time three has fallen a unscaled distance of 1, then proportionally the chain has fallen a distance of 1.23, in the same time. (You can use dividers to do it yourself.) So the velocity difference is more than 20% greater. Make the velocity scale of the ball 1 then the chain is velocity 1.23 the relative energy differential (square of velocity) is 1::1.51 or 150% of the impact energy of the same free falling weight -- with no more energy added than it takes to fall.

That's what you felt. With the body the dynamic is a bit more complex but the principle operates just the same. The same principle of freely cascaded momentum but using lateral sway rather than outright fall, is the basis for the "one-inch" or "no-inch" punch, as well as Shioda's quite impressive munedori irimi throws.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:50 AM   #189
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Or how about this?

Picture chain mail.
http://blog.makezine.com/chain_mail.jpg

Picture something like that all over your body -- in other words, let's call it fascia.
No muscle groups should fire. Shoulder joint has to be connected. Body is whole body. Everything is integrated in a chain mail suit over the entire body.

Draw down. Pull the links together into the ground.
Yes, but those things happen dynamically in tension right behind a properly coordinated strike as described in my immediate post above. A cable or sheet under dynamic tension is more or less effectively rigid, but only until the tension is released, then it is more or less flexible again.

The tension comes on progressively and in patterns directed by the dynamic. The dynamic is formed in the intention of the mind directing the body to follow and then also to "back-up" the dynamic structurally (like each link if the chain coming into tension against the stability of the hanging support, or in the case of the body -- against the support of the ground.

The underlying base tension determines how much differential there is between the two states, and the degree of differential has a lot to do with the efficiency of the transfer of momentum. The smaller the amount of resting tension (a relatively slack chain, for instance) the greater the efficiency. But also the fineness in the degree of coordination (or speed of correction of the required structural tensions) also is important.

While a hanging chain is subcritically stable (ball inside a bowl) and this occurs without any mental input on the part of a hanging chain -- we are supercritically stable (ball on the upside-down bowl). Therefore, aligning the structural support requires work and finely made adjustments to create and maintain that instantaneous structural back-up for the otherwise "free" energy of the relaxed strike.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-04-2008 at 09:57 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:15 AM   #190
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Well, erg, I guess. As Rob mentioned a couple of posts later, it depends on what you're burning in.
....
In that same manner, techniques are merely exercises working principles in dynamic situations. So, katatekosadori ikkyo isn't about getting the first pin from a cross hand grab. It's about putting your wrist being your dantien, having ki at the point of contact, putting ground into your wrist -- all the while you are moving. The technique is just an exercise to let one work on these principles in motion to train the body while moving.

So, then, when you get to randori, jiyuwaza, sparring, whatever, your body is trained and does what it should. There are no techniques but principles in motion. Sure, you might actually get a technique but it isn't anything you're working towards. You're just trying to keep all the principles intact while under pressure (attack, moving, adjusting, etc) from another person.

That's why sparring in some form is good for aikido. It doesn't have to follow a BJJ sparring model, UFC, etc. But there should be something.
I agree with the first, as Saotome could have said it (and has.) The latter, however, is a non sequitur. It does not follow, or at least it assumes more that can be supported.

If you find that myofascial action plays a structural role (which I do not deny) it is important to know how, biomechanically, that system works. We do know that it does NOT work on the adrenal (fight/flight) cascade provoked by the competitive conflict of fear/anger. We know that it DOES function under the influence of oxytocin, which is the biological basis for preparing the body to entering into PROTECTIVE conflict. It is not founded on either rage or fear.

In other words, accepting everything you have said, you need to take O Sensei seriously, on a purely biological basis, that true budo is the spirit of loving protection, and that Aikido CANNOT flourish in truly competitive environment. Those statements are of a piece with the biology on this issue.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 04-04-2008 at 10:19 AM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:55 AM   #191
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
I'd say it's more like ju-jutsu. I mean there is more to good aikido then just good judo + some punching....right?
Hey Don, well, I was joking to some extent, as were you. But...and I considered adding this, but decided since we were joking it wasn't needed...

Let's use aikido or judo or jujutsu or just plain old wrastlin. Dan is our (cough) straw man. When you grab him and you can't move him, can't enter, can't turn, can't do anything, you draw back and pop him one. I can pretty much guarantee most of us won't do more than piss him off. Now you have a Pissed Off Dan, who hits like a MAC truck, and YOU are the straw man.

Have fun!
Ron (someone is going for a ride...and my bet is a) on a pipe, and b) it won't be Dan)

Ron Tisdale
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:03 AM   #192
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Hey Don, well, I was joking to some extent, as were you. But...and I considered adding this, but decided since we were joking it wasn't needed...

Let's use aikido or judo or jujutsu or just plain old wrastlin. Dan is our (cough) straw man. When you grab him and you can't move him, can't enter, can't turn, can't do anything, you draw back and pop him one. I can pretty much guarantee most of us won't do more than piss him off. Now you have a Pissed Off Dan, who hits like a MAC truck, and YOU are the straw man.

Have fun!
Ron (someone is going for a ride...and my bet is a) on a pipe, and b) it won't be Dan)
Yea, I was just razzing ya. Besides, I only eye gouge, nut strike, and tear clavicles anyways

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:11 AM   #193
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

LOL! Yeah, I considered those too (TMA and all) but the thought of a pissed off Dan didn't float my boat that day!

b,
r

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Old 04-04-2008, 07:46 PM   #194
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Funny thing I find about people who just do theory is that they don't know that they just do theory. I have not seen any video of him doing actual application, only theory.

I think your answer is more silly then my question. Most Aikidoka only do theory. Actually, from what I know save tomiki guys and Mits Yamashita, all teachers just do theory.
If i can make a coment about this. The head of the aikido organization i belong to ( who was an uchi-deshi of O'sensei and Tohei sensei) has been through much actual application of aikido(in his earlier years). So the only techniques taught are those he deemed effective in combat situations. So, no yonkyu for us(considering its limited effectiveness on different people). and his(our) method of aikido is constantly evolving to become more "street" effective.

Is this what you meant by "actual application"? Testing aikido on the streets?
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Old 04-04-2008, 07:54 PM   #195
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

[quote=Giancarlo DiPierro;185556]I've seen this rationale before and it makes no sense. How can you have any kind of two-person martial arts training without one person eventually winning and the other person losing? Certainly you have this in every aikido technique: the nage wins and the uke loses.QUOTE]

I would like to make a coment about the last line of this statement if i may. And i of course mean no offense. But, in Aikido, to my understanding, Nage and Uke work together towards a comon goal. It is not "winning and loosing" when it comes to Uke and Nage, it is Uke working with Nage to find holes in his technique, it is a partnership of sorts, one of learning. Aikido just wouldnt be Aikido without having the expierience of being Uke as well as Nage.

As always, this is from my point of veiw, and coming from my limited experience.

-morgan
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Old 04-05-2008, 01:31 PM   #196
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
I would like to make a coment about the last line of this statement if i may. And i of course mean no offense. But, in Aikido, to my understanding, Nage and Uke work together towards a comon goal.
And sparring is not incompatible with his common goal.
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Old 04-06-2008, 09:44 AM   #197
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
And sparring is not incompatible with his common goal.
I wasnt disagreeing with that. I was only stating that there is'nt a winner or looser when it comes to Uke and Nage. If you spar, then it will no longer be Uke and Nage, it will be one Martial Artist pitting his wits and skill against another. There will be no harmony between them, as in the case of Uke and Nage.

in aiki
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Old 04-06-2008, 12:07 PM   #198
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
But, in Aikido, to my understanding, Nage and Uke work together towards a comon goal. It is not "winning and loosing" when it comes to Uke and Nage, it is Uke working with Nage to find holes in his technique, it is a partnership of sorts, one of learning.
That's great if you train that way. Most people in aikido do not. How does uke work to find holes in nage's technique? Either by blocking the technique or countering. If uke counters, then the roles change and uke becomes nage. That -- the interchange of roles between nage and uke, as well as the freedom to apply any technique -- is the essence of sparring.

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
I was only stating that there is'nt a winner or looser when it comes to Uke and Nage.
Actually, there is. The nage is the winner and the uke is the loser. This is, in fact, one way of interpreting the terms nage and uke, and in it might even be the most accurately descriptive one for most aikido training.

Quote:
If you spar, then it will no longer be Uke and Nage, it will be one Martial Artist pitting his wits and skill against another. There will be no harmony between them, as in the case of Uke and Nage.
Why do you think there can only be harmony when the roles are fixed? Of course it is much easier to have harmony when the winner (nage) and loser (uke) are specified in advance, but it so easy that you will learn almost nothing about creating harmony in a real conflict from it. If you cannot create harmony in a spontaneous, non-fixed role situation, then I would say that you really don't much about harmony at all. I would also say that this is true of many, probably even most, people I have encountered in aikido.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:17 PM   #199
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Giancarlo DiPierro wrote: View Post
Actually, there is. The nage is the winner and the uke is the loser. This is, in fact, one way of interpreting the terms nage and uke, and in it might even be the most accurately descriptive one for most aikido training.
Is your definition of uke and nage based on linguistics, historic usage, or from your own observations about the roles of partners as currently practiced in Aikido?

I only ask because, since I started training, it has been constantly reinforced that there is no competition in the Aikido I'm studying. And it's difficult for me to understand how the terms "winner" and "loser" could possibly have any relational value outside of a competitive environment.
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Old 04-06-2008, 01:27 PM   #200
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

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Morgan Wible wrote: View Post
. If you spar, then it will no longer be Uke and Nage, it will be one Martial Artist pitting his wits and skill against another. There will be no harmony between them, as in the case of Uke and Nage.
There will be two people training and learning from each other. Harmony/disharmony can be in the mindset of the people involved, not in the sparring.
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