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Old 08-11-2007, 12:56 PM   #126
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

I have never had a fear of losing. If you fear losing or desire to win, you will never get any better. In fact I have lost way way more then I have ever won. Today for example, I was thrown at least 15 times by a big guy, and did not even throw him a single time. This was not a loss. I learned about some huge holes in my footwork.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 08-11-2007, 02:31 PM   #127
tarik
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
I was wondering, for those who engage in "sparring or competitive practices" in any aspect of your training, is it always accompanied by a desire to win or fear of losing?
Fear of losing? No. Fear of falling or getting hurt? Sometimes. Depends on who I'm training with and even then, there's still a deep level of fear that manifests as tension in my system and that simply takes time and practice to eliminate. Fortunately I like ukemi and falling and don't see them as losing and that makes working on this much easier for me.

But I've had friends who later quit training (which I guessed would happen) who would say "you won" every time they fell down instead of me. So it happens a lot.

Desire to win? Not precisely, but a desire to make technique can manifest too strongly sometimes. I try to replace it with a desire to learn as I can often learn as much from ukemi as from making technique, but again, there's a deep instinctive desire to 'win' that manifests as muscle tension and/or speed in an attempt to make technique.

Again, something that needs to be slowly eliminated so that we can replace it with an "aiki" method of making technique.

The point of the training to me is that I can recognize it and take responsibility for it and work to eliminate it. The key way is to slow down the practice to the extent that I can recognize those impulses to use the wrong methods (muscular strength and speed for instance) and have time to counteract them.

Quote:
Have you ever practiced in the above manner without having these feelings? If so, what other feelings may enter when sparring or practicing in a competitive manner?
See above. I don't really care about winning or losing in any normal sense. But I don't consider it winning to just take ukemi without trying my best to recover and counter my partner without adding resistance in the form of tension or speed. The quality of my resistance and my partners resistance defines winning and losing to me, not who falls down.

Quote:
Imho desire and fear are things I control and can choose or not choose to bring into any practice I partake in,
Fears? I am not able to eliminate all my fears at will, merely to decide to relax and do stuff anyway. Doing that for long enough does reduce them and maybe even makes some of them go away.

Desires? Well, I have more control over that feeling, but why train if I don't desire something, even if it's an enjoyment of training or a desire to improve my understanding of what I believe aiki might be?

Quote:
Just some ramblings in trying to get something out of the thread.
Good ramblings.

Regards,

Tarik Ghbeish
Jiyūshin-ryū AikiBudō - Iwae Dojo

MASAKATSU AGATSU -- "The true victory of self-mastery."
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:46 PM   #128
salim
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

This is why sparring is important. Imagine full speed!

http://www.altmuslim.com/a/a/a/2580/
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:50 PM   #129
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i1w-8XhXutI
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Old 08-12-2007, 10:05 AM   #130
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Well I can see this thread has dragged on about the why's and why nots and its always interesting to note that these kind of threads seem to draw out the underlying insecurity that a few seem to have about their aikido.

The only way to find out if your waza is effective against full resistance is to try it out with willing players.... that's if you are willing and want to do it with the minimum of risk in the dojo.... that is no guarantee that your technique will work in the street. Unless you have police enforcement experience or have been in a few unfortunate situations you will never know!! But sparring will certainly give you some edge...
No technique is absolute!

That is the answer..... spar and get used to it! Expect some injuries.... they are inevitable....

Tony
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Old 03-23-2008, 09:12 AM   #131
rob_liberti
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
O Sensei stated it plainly, if we would listen: "True budo is love."
It is that combination of very real possibillity of danger and the simultaneous desire to protect our partner from that danger in a selfless way that creates the environment for the suggested intensifying mechanism of "Love as Budo" Competition or sparring would that aspect make almost impossible to achieve.

O Sensei's combination of his physical solo practices, chinkon kishin, for example, with his simultaneous deep contemplation and religious devotion to the expanding Love of the Divine, would likely make those same fascial contraction functions operate.

There is no faking true love.

It also suggests that there may well be something very unique about what Aikido strives to achieve in a combative setting that does indeed set it far apart from other arts. That thing may have teeth that are belied by the language and sincere attitude of of love that makes it possible.
When I consider "Love in combat" - I am struck with some lines from Ender's Game:

"In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them.... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist."

My impression was that Osensei loved people like that and THEN chose to NOT destroy them even though he could do so easily due to a ton of solo training. This is all of the stuff I think about when people ask me "what is aikido?"

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-23-2008 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 03-23-2008, 02:50 PM   #132
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

I walk down the street everyday, as well as everyone else, aikido or no aikido, people make that "choice" everyday. I could easily go home get my gun and go out and destroy people at will, at least until someone stopped me. Doesn't take much skill to destroy or to not destroy or to make that choice on some scale, consciously or unconsciously.

No there is more to aikido, love and compassion than this I think.

It has something to do with removing hate and making people and themselves see things in ways they may not have considered before.

choice to destroy or not to destroy is very rudimentary. Not much skill involved there, IMO

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Old 03-23-2008, 11:21 PM   #133
rob_liberti
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Hi Kevin. Just to be clear I believe for that analogy to be the appropriate (in my view anyway) I would say someone would have to be walking down the street, and decide to hurt you. You have far superior (fire) power than they do. If when you are dealing with that you LOVE them due to compassion then I think we are back on the same track.

If you decide to do the solo training stuff and make some big progress there - and then bring that to partner practice such that you are dealing with all physical (non fire arm) attacks while loving your attacker them due to compassion and you get a performance increase due to that - I would say you are nearing my view of wha aikido is (these days anyway).

Rob
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Old 03-24-2008, 06:53 AM   #134
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Rob,

Not sure I am following you exactly. Appologize if I get it wrong.

If I have superior fire power than they. I can choose to NOT use it on them for a couple of reasons. 1. I simply don't want to go to jail. 2. I am indifferent, and they haven't pissed me off. 3. I have genuine compassion and value for life.

It might be hard to tell by an outsider. It also may be hard to tell yourself why you did not do it. It is possible to be deluded and think you are doing it out of love, but you are simply deluded by your own emotions.

Conversely, it is also possible to kill/destroy compassionately too. That is, the killing might stop a greater harm from occuring.

It gets tricky. Many wars have been started for the wrong reasons (using love as justification). A few have been avoided for the wrong reasons. The Dali Lama has stated that he sometimes regrets his in-action against the Chinese if he would have been able to predict the level of suffering and crimes against humanity that his people have suffered.

All I am saying is that Love and Compassion can be very complicated issues

I think I agree with your view on your aikido practice looking at your last paragraph.

I think the core of aikido does center around authentic love and compassion, I think philosophically it is what makes aikido distinct in many respects and should drive the train in practice.

The internal and external skills that we practice are simply tools to get a deeper understanding of that perspective, paradigm what not.

They are detached, not related..any more than a hammer is related to a competed house.

Agreed the internal practice should serve to increase your understanding of love and compassion.

However, it may or may not, IMO. Anymore than a hammer or even expensive japanese wood tools would help you become a master craftsman in building a house.

No argument with you Rob, just diving deeper in the subject.

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Old 03-24-2008, 02:16 PM   #135
Daniel Blanco
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Re: Knee Injuries

Looking for a responce to knee injuries or any injuries related to training.
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Old 03-24-2008, 10:14 PM   #136
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Knee Injuries? In this thread?

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Old 03-25-2008, 05:30 PM   #137
Michael Godawski
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

one of my teachers once said wise words:

Quote:
in the real life the attacker comes always from behind.
and
Quote:
you are not going to learn how to fight in aikido
wise words

you cannot "train" real life situation in my humble option.
furthermore from time to time I do some stronger attack on some more experienced aikidokas in my dojo and I must say if I would attack with real intention I would deliver myself into hospital

there is a reason why we pay so much attention during training

be gentle it's my first post here

a happy 3rd kyu
mydojo
godawski.oiranho.de
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Old 03-25-2008, 08:52 PM   #138
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Welcome Michael.

I agree many attacks are ambushes and/or suprises.

There are situations and scenarios that can be trained and that you can develop skills to better mitigate or effect the outcome.

Do we train that way in aikido? Some might, some might not. Overall I'd say that is generally not the main reason for studying aikido.

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Old 03-25-2008, 09:10 PM   #139
rob_liberti
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
If I have superior fire power than they. I can choose to NOT use it on them for a couple of reasons. 1. I simply don't want to go to jail. 2. I am indifferent, and they haven't pissed me off. 3. I have genuine compassion and value for life.
I meant option 3. I understand what you mean about compassion-confusion. I just posted about that topic
here.

As far as the teacher who said "you are not going to learn how to fight in aikido" - all I can say is come to my class in a few years.

Rob
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:24 AM   #140
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Ron,
( This is meant seriously.) How is your class taught differently from Gleason's that you teach how to fight whereas his school doesn't?

melior est canis vivus leone mortuo
Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:09 AM   #141
Michael Godawski
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

let me clarify
the sentence "you won't learn how to fight in aikido" is much more complicated as it seems to be.

of course I know aikido can be a devastating killing art when applied with the right intention, technique and power.

but in the long run it is not the aim of aikido to create killing machines... from time to time during the training I catch a glimpse of what aikido is really like

sometimes I feel like :" man this move applied faster and a little bit stronger and I am guest in a hospital for a long time"

sometimes, and that are the big moments I just realize how wonderful the interaction between nage and uke is, that aikido is truly an art which allows you to leave the earth for just a few seconds of breakfall

a happy 3rd kyu
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:07 PM   #142
DonMagee
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

I usually do get the feel of "If someone could pull this off against someone trying to hurt them, oh man would they lay down the pain." But usually, no matter how perfect I get it when I do train in aikido (which admittedly is not as often as it should be), when I take it to the sparing mat in a judo/bjj/mma/whatever context, it falls flat and is easily overcome by my partner.

The failing is either in the technique, in me, or in the training method. I suspect it's a good bit of the last two and a little bit of the first one. I base this on the fact that my bjj and judo work (which I train more often) so my lack of aikido training is to blame. When I modify the aikido techniques I know to be 'rougher' with more judo like unbalancing and technique, it becomes easier (so the the technique seems more efficient to me, example, rather then making the guy fall with arms only, I slide in a hip or a leg and he has no choice.). And I've done bjj and judo a lot less then I did aikido and i'm more effective in them, so the aikido training method does not teach me as efficiently.

Last edited by DonMagee : 03-26-2008 at 03:09 PM.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:29 PM   #143
rob_liberti
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Joseph Connolly wrote: View Post
Ron,
( This is meant seriously.) How is your class taught differently from Gleason's that you teach how to fight whereas his school doesn't?
I believe you mean me right?

My classes are different from Gleason sensei's classes in that he is really great at aikido and I'm not.

However, part of his greatness is that he doesn't mind what else I train.

I guess the time comes when you just know its time to take full responsibility for your own training. I still look to him for aikido lessons - don't get me wrong. But after a while it's not helpful to him or me if I continue to look to him to spoon feed me. That wastes his time and mine and lumps me in as someone just there to be part of the martial arts wallpaper so to speak.

My goal like all good students is to grow beyond my teacher(s). To that end, I've been working out with Dan Harden learning his internal training exercises and how to apply that to MMA. And I work on how to apply that to the aikido that Gleason sensei has been teaching me as well.

Since I've been on this tack, a lot of the things that Gleason sensei has been showing me make a lot more sense and I can do those things a lot better. Lessons about kotegaishi for example where your body is doing some things all at the same time while you're cutting them with your mind make a lot more sense since I've been directly training intention.

With Gleason sensei, Ikeda Sensei and Saotome sensei, etc. passing out my teachers is a tall order! Just training the same way they are teaching and training themselves is certainly not going to do it. These guys are still training themselves and they are making more progress at a faster rate.

So, in order to be a good student I feel I MUST look for an alternate methodology to try to challenge them and actually contribute to their growth or even dare I say pass them and turn them on to something they would not have considered otherwise.
If that means I need to approach this from a more martial angle then so be it.

If it turns out that I am totally off base in my approach, I have some great teachers to help set me straight. And that would be well worth it too.

Rob

Last edited by rob_liberti : 03-26-2008 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 03-27-2008, 02:52 AM   #144
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Still aikido when sparring

About sparring in aikido:
I think the difficult thing is to keep it aikido, also when sparring, doing randori, or taninzugake, et cetera.
A lot of what I have seen becomes some kind of chaotic wrestling, where it is hard to see who is tori and who is uke - that is, who is using, and who is not using, aiki principles.

Also, aikido techniques applied with full speed and power are quite dangerous to attackers who resist. I have heard that this is one reason for many of them being excluded from judo.

Aikido is often done in the "premise" of a duel - two persons facing each other, and both respectful of the other's abilities. That is an interesting situation, found in most traditional martial arts. Like two samurai at chudan kamae.
You don't just rush into something like that.

Often, attackers in randori and such jump in, safe in the knowledge that tori will not strike them or hurt them in any other way. That is nice, but also it makes a "premise" that is quite unreal - and to the disadvantage of tori, whose movements and techniques are not respected for what they represent.
For this and many other reasons, any kind of "free fighting" in aikido is not that free, and it tends to expose weaknesses in aikido that might not be real.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 03-27-2008, 07:55 AM   #145
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote: View Post
With Gleason sensei, Ikeda Sensei and Saotome sensei, etc. passing out my teachers is a tall order! Just training the same way they are teaching and training themselves is certainly not going to do it. These guys are still training themselves and they are making more progress at a faster rate.

Rob
vietnamese has a saying "learn one, understand ten". the way to catch up with those teachers would be if they show you one thing, you have to figure out what 10 other things implied in that one thing. at least, that is my plan and I'll stick to that approach. ok. back to solo training program in progress.
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Old 03-27-2008, 09:22 AM   #146
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Sorry rob, I am a horrible typer. I didn't realize I missed the 'b' for an 'n'.

Thank you for answering my question. I guess a follow up would be, how are you training for MMA? Do you do this though your own dojo in the aikido classes you teach or as separate classes?

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Bog svsami!!!
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Old 03-27-2008, 10:42 AM   #147
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Phil wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Rob Liberti wrote:
With Gleason sensei, Ikeda Sensei and Saotome sensei, etc. passing out my teachers is a tall order! Just training the same way they are teaching and training themselves is certainly not going to do it. These guys are still training themselves and they are making more progress at a faster rate.

Rob
vietnamese has a saying "learn one, understand ten". the way to catch up with those teachers would be if they show you one thing, you have to figure out what 10 other things implied in that one thing. at least, that is my plan and I'll stick to that approach. ok. back to solo training program in progress.
The catch to all this is that based on the way DO arts are designed, taught, and structured...you will never catch them.

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Old 03-27-2008, 11:43 AM   #148
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Hi Stefan,

Quote:
Aikido is often done in the "premise" of a duel - two persons facing each other, and both respectful of the other's abilities. That is an interesting situation, found in most traditional martial arts. Like two samurai at chudan kamae.
You don't just rush into something like that.
The problem today is, most aikidoka don't seem to have the kind of power empty handed to hold off an attacker and make them show that same caution. If you take away the blade (weapon), can we still express the kind of power that enforces that respect?

Ueshiba could...Shioda could...Tohei could...can we? What did they train to give themselves access to that power? How can we train that?

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
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Old 03-27-2008, 12:27 PM   #149
Stefan Stenudd
 
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
If you take away the blade (weapon), can we still express the kind of power that enforces that respect?
Ueshiba could...Shioda could...Tohei could...can we? What did they train to give themselves access to that power? How can we train that?
Actually, I am more interested in training the attitude that makes attackers lose their will to attack, at all. The very relaxed state of mind that makes aggression melt away.
I'm working on it

As for the power that creates enough respect from the attacker for him or her to be naturally cautious, I guess it is done by attitude and kiai - the ability to focus all one's energy in one direction, on one purpose.
Atemi, for example, can be trained to develop that effect. It needs to be trained, of course - no mere waving of a hand, but exact striking techniques with spirit and focus.
As Nishio sensei said: atemi no kokyu.

Stefan Stenudd
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Old 03-27-2008, 01:06 PM   #150
Cyrijl
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Re: Sparring in Aikido?

Quote:
As for the power that creates enough respect from the attacker for him or her to be naturally cautious, I guess it is done by attitude and kiai - the ability to focus all one's energy in one direction, on one purpose.
Atemi, for example, can be trained to develop that effect. It needs to be trained, of course - no mere waving of a hand, but exact striking techniques with spirit and focus.
Can you explain/give an example in more concrete terms?

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