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Old 03-25-2008, 07:59 AM   #1
"Annoynamus Person 1231"
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Grr! The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Hello everyone. Though I have an account on here, this is the topic I never wanted to post. So I am under Annoynamus.

I have been doing Aikido for about 8 years now, and it has become a great important part of my life. There has even been uchideshi phases and lots of money spent on travels and fees, on countless videos and books.

So.. At my school I have learned lots from my Shihan and Aikido. Self Confidence is the big one. My social skills have improved alot as well. I also have broken bad habits I used to do that invalid going out lots to bars.

Aikido has been great to me, but what do you ask then is the problem?

While the problem lies here in... I always wanted to start my own school since I started.. I know it is still 8 - 10 years down the road... This is fine, but the other day I trained with a professional fighter. I did not expect to win sparing, and your right.. I lost..

But then I tried with people who were not even in martial arts, and more then often enough I am still getting my ars handed to me.

This greatly upsets me.. I cannot run a school to teach self defense and confidence if I have not faith my own abilities. :-(

I look at the black belts in my school, and they are able to do all this stuff awesome, however at brown belt I am still missing it.

In relation to this, if I work with new students who co-oporate they look at my technique with awe, and seem impressed. However after training with a few now Aikido people I am finding that people outside don't co-oporate. Even people who are in class that are really stiff make the technique very difficult. I tried to teach one friend ikkyo and he was even stiff as hell and I had trouble with it.. Tried everything to make it work, in the end I resorted to atemi for it to work.

Infact the only way I can make Aikido work for me at all anymore is by adding Atemi. :-( The lost of confidence in my abilities has gotten so bad now that even when doing my technique with others I have to add atemi. It is like a crutch I have to use. I know my teacher has taught atemi many times, but I know alot of the time we havent used it as well. WHY CAN'T I GET IT WITHOUT ATEMI!

I also want to add that I try real hard to obsorbe it, and practise all the time. I focus on every detail, sometimes too hard to the point I lose it.. And I will be honest I am A.D.D, so it is sometimes hard. Honestly I don't know if this is why other people have it by now and I do not. But I honestly feel I am missing everything. I am frustrated and after 8 years I am ready to move to something else.

Unless.............. Unless there is some sort of explanation for this, or some sort of reason that someone can bring to my attention of why I am not getting it. Please tell me there is something to get, because I know my seniors have found it, and even some of my juniors... Just not me. :-(

Any idea on whats going on? Anyone else been here before?
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Old 03-25-2008, 08:25 AM   #2
Ron Tisdale
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Been there before, sometimes still there now, will be back again. Each time I improve, I find new challenges. It's called life, and raising the bar. Perfectly normal.

Continue to visit your MMA friend, you will learn lots. Continue to train in aikido, and polish your basics. Pair with the Seniors that you believe have it as often as possible. Note every detail of how they move, what they do when faced with power, how they take your balance.

Begin to get to know your body...find exercises you can do at home to enhance your own balance and familiarity with your structure (bones, ligaments, tendons). Yoga under the correct instructor can be very good for this.

Don't quit. Nana Korobi Yaoki Jinsei Wa Kore Kara Da! Fall down seven times, rise eight, life begins from now.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-25-2008, 09:36 AM   #3
Larry Cuvin
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Like you, I plan to operate an affiliated dojo in my retirement years. I'm going on my 5th year and know I have a long, long way to go but if I may offer a suggestion: work on blending and leading. Also avoid collision and try not to give your partner something to resist to. Go beyond the physical and lead their mind. Once you lead the mind, the body follows. These are the things that I constantly remind my self and they are hard to do.

At least, you have the luxury of training with a MMA friend. A chance to polish your technique.

2 cents from a newbie.

Plus Ki
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:08 AM   #4
GrazZ
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

well considering Aikido is 80% atemi i dont think thats a problem, in fact you need to add MORE atemi if anything because good luck getting any technique that isnt kokyunage to work without it

theres a couple threads on this that was just posted recently, might want to check it out, one is on atemi in Aikido and the other was about that motivation poll posted a while ago.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:19 AM   #5
aikidoc
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Try to find more of the aiki-don't try so hard to "make it work".
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:23 AM   #6
James Davis
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
So.. At my school I have learned lots from my Shihan and Aikido. Self Confidence is the big one. My social skills have improved alot as well. I also have broken bad habits I used to do that invalid going out lots to bars.
Aikido has improved you to some degree, but the improvement never ends.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
While the problem lies here in... I always wanted to start my own school since I started.. I know it is still 8 - 10 years down the road... This is fine, but the other day I trained with a professional fighter. I did not expect to win sparing, and your right.. I lost..
"Lost"? What did you lose? It sounds like learning to me.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
But then I tried with people who were not even in martial arts, and more then often enough I am still getting my ars handed to me.
So you're in the process of learning how stupid fighting can be? Ever seen anyone injured? Badly?

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
This greatly upsets me.. I cannot run a school to teach self defense and confidence if I have not faith my own abilities. :-(
You probably shouldn't do it without some humillity either.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I look at the black belts in my school, and they are able to do all this stuff awesome, however at brown belt I am still missing it.
There are things that you're getting that they are missing. It's just not readily apparent.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
In relation to this, if I work with new students who co-oporate they look at my technique with awe, and seem impressed. However after training with a few now Aikido people I am finding that people outside don't co-oporate. Even people who are in class that are really stiff make the technique very difficult. I tried to teach one friend ikkyo and he was even stiff as hell and I had trouble with it.. Tried everything to make it work, in the end I resorted to atemi for it to work.
What happens when you resist technique?
Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post

Infact the only way I can make Aikido work for me at all anymore is by adding Atemi. :-( The lost of confidence in my abilities has gotten so bad now that even when doing my technique with others I have to add atemi. It is like a crutch I have to use. I know my teacher has taught atemi many times, but I know alot of the time we havent used it as well. WHY CAN'T I GET IT WITHOUT ATEMI!
Sometimes, you can't. Fish around in your toolbox and see what else you have.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
I also want to add that I try real hard to obsorbe it, and practise all the time. I focus on every detail, sometimes too hard to the point I lose it.. And I will be honest I am A.D.D, so it is sometimes hard. Honestly I don't know if this is why other people have it by now and I do not. But I honestly feel I am missing everything. I am frustrated and after 8 years I am ready to move to something else.

Unless.............. Unless there is some sort of explanation for this, or some sort of reason that someone can bring to my attention of why I am not getting it. Please tell me there is something to get, because I know my seniors have found it, and even some of my juniors... Just not me. :-(
No matter how good you get, this will continue to happen. True Victory Is Self Victory. Look at that person who's looking back at you from the mirror. Are they better than they were yesterday? That's what matters.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Any idea on whats going on?
What's going on for you may be entirely different from what's going on for me. Just know that EVERYONE has something going on. Those classmates that seem to be so together have problems of their own, believe me.

Quote:
Anonymous User wrote: View Post
Anyone else been here before?
HAHAHAHAHAHA!! HECK YEAH!!

"The only difference between Congress and drunken sailors is that drunken sailors spend their own money." -Tom Feeney, representative from Florida
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:26 AM   #7
gregstec
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Sounds like you need to get back to basics. Techniques are just a physical manifestation of the underlying principles involved. I heard mentioned somewhere that there are four basic principles of technique application: (1) get off the line of attack, (2) receive Uke's energy (Ki, intent, etc) into your sphere of control, (3) redirect energy and take Uke's balance, and (4) eject or throw energy away (along with Uke). Of course, all four things are done immediately at the instant of contact. If you focus on those principles, eventually your techniques will come together. Further, it is also important to do all of that while focusing on the four principles of Aiki movement: (1) keep mind centered in tanden (Tohei"s One Point), (2) Relax completely, (3) Extend Ki (from One Point) & (4) Keep weight underside (think down!)

Of course, I am not an expert (not even close) at all that stuff, I just have an idea on where I need to go...

Good Luck

Greg
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:32 AM   #8
cguzik
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

You have discovered one of the most subtle things about this art:

The reason why our techniques manifest the way they do is because uke moves in a certain way in response to your technique because they are aware of their own openings as created by or identified by how you move.

Any of the following will cause your aikido to not work.

(a) Uke does not care if they are open because they don't believe you can exploit the opening -- this includes them not caring if you hit them.

(b) Uke is not aware of the opening and therefore does not move to close it.

(c) You do not move correctly to create or identify the opening.

You have to do certain things to make sure the above don't happen. This may include actually delivering an atemi to build uke's respect for those openings. It may include making your intent a bit more clear to help uke become aware of their own openings. It may include working on your own movement, including stopping trying to do a technique to uke and focusing on moving yourself in response to their openings.

Aikido is a study of suki. If your partner doesn't care or isn't aware, then half of what you need to do aikido is missing.
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Old 03-25-2008, 10:37 AM   #9
fullerfury
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
Infact the only way I can make Aikido work for me at all anymore is by adding Atemi.
Aikido "technique" works when uke becomes unbalanced. In order to create this unbalance, some sort of Atemi is usually required. I would suggest continued study with this in mind.

Also, have some patience with yourself. While 8 years is a significant time in study, it is only a beginning.
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:15 AM   #10
NagaBaba
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
This greatly upsets me.. I cannot run a school to teach self defense and confidence if I have not faith my own abilities. :-(
You want to teach aikido as self defence?????

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Nagababa

ask for divine protection Ame no Murakumo Kuki Samuhara no Ryuo
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Old 03-25-2008, 12:20 PM   #11
"Annoynamus Person 1231"
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Thanks for your replies.
Most of them were positive. :-P

Prehapse I will not worry so much about using Atemi, and revist the basics even more.
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Old 03-25-2008, 02:55 PM   #12
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Wow, your post could have been written by me about 4 years ago!

I had almost the exact same set of experiences.

Mine came from training with my soldiers in the Army Combatives Program. i could not demonstrate anything that worked even against new students that had been in the program for less than a year.

I got on board with the program, took up MMA and BJJ and now have a better appreciation and can cross both sides of the fence somewhat now.

Don't give up, be patient, you are probably going through a period of deconstruction which in the end, if you survive, will lead to a new concepts, ideas, and understandings.

Don't be afraid to "let go" of what you know, get outside of your comfort zone, and learn from those that are "owning you".

Not sure where you are, but there are many out there that have gone through this.

Feel free to PM me in confidence if you ever want to talk about this issue, I have been there too!

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Old 03-25-2008, 02:57 PM   #13
Aristeia
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

some of the answers you get you may not like - but they are the ones that are likely to be most honest.

Albeit with slightly less derision, I agree with Szczepan. The sweet spot for Aikido is not self defence. Confidence, fitness, the philosophy and tradition etc etc with some self defence application. If people are simply looking to fight an Aikido dojo is not the right place for them.

Ask yourself more honestly why *you* do Aikido. If some higher power was giving you a cast iron guarantee you would never get in a fight from here on in, would you quit? If the answer is no then clearly you are getting something else out of the training that is not simply self defence. Given the low statistical likelihood of you personally being attacked I would suggest you are probably getting something out of it that is more important than self defence. That's what you should be concentrating on offering in your dojo should you create one.

Second point. You seem to think your seniors "have it" but you don't because you can't handle attacks from non aikidoka. How often have you seen your seniors in a similar situation to what you've been experimenting with. You may be surprised that they don't fare terribly different - iow stop beating yourself up about it, it's probably not an issue with you at all.

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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Old 03-25-2008, 03:09 PM   #14
Tharis
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

I think "practical" Aikido will always require a certain degree of atemi, unless you've got the skill of a shihan.

And yeah, I've been there. A big revelation for me was that "technique" isn't really what you should expect yourself to do if you're in a free sparring situation. "Technique," practiced well, will teach you the instincts that you'll need to use in a situation.

To paraphrase an old cliche:

Fighting with Aikido is like screwing for virginity.

Last edited by Tharis : 03-25-2008 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 03-25-2008, 06:03 PM   #15
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Quote:
Michael Fooks wrote: View Post
Second point. You seem to think your seniors "have it" but you don't because you can't handle attacks from non aikidoka. How often have you seen your seniors in a similar situation to what you've been experimenting with. You may be surprised that they don't fare terribly different - iow stop beating yourself up about it, it's probably not an issue with you at all.
I was wondering about this as well - how do your seniors handle resistance? One way to find out is to give them some (with a willing senior) and see what kind of solutions they will use. Could be a way to really learn something. If, on the other hand, they don't have any solutions (other than "don't resist")...well, in that case you shouldn't be surprised that you didn't know how to handle a resisting partner either. But you might want to look for somewhere else to train if that is the thing that you are after. But hopefully they will have ways to handle resistance, and you get an opportunity to learn something new.

kvaak
Pauliina
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Old 03-25-2008, 06:06 PM   #16
Lyle Bogin
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

I think you should take some time off from aikido and work your way through some MMA or another heavy contact, competitive martial art.

Like Ripley said in aliens, it's the only way to be sure.
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Old 03-25-2008, 06:33 PM   #17
d2l
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

I believe if you search more with in your arsenal, you will find more than just the standard locks that lead into throws. If your Uke is resisting, be "Johny on the spot" and throw a punch, an elbow, or a knee. One thing that annoys the hell out of me, is people not learning to use transitions. If something doesn't work right away, you have to have a clear enough mind to look for an opening. This could mean going from one lock to another in an instant, chokes, or strikes. I think a lot of people are afraid to get hit, and thus their technique suffers. There is NO perfect system. Sometimes the only way to survive is to fall back on to what you already know will work.
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Old 03-25-2008, 07:58 PM   #18
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

It is not that skills, principles, or techniques that are the problem typically with aikido...they are spot on I think (usually)

The challenge in timing, speed, distance, and compliance....also known as elements of aliveness.

This is what I found that gets you into trouble when you take aikido out of the dojo and work with those that do not respond how you do in the aikido dojo.

So, the answer, if you are not finding it in your aikido dojo is to train more or harder, or to add "more resistance". The answer is to find people outside of that environment that train this way and start making the mistakes (de-construct) and start figuring out how to respond with the new elements of timing, speed, distance and non-compliance.

That is, unless you are really lucky and have a dojo that does all of that. Sounds like you don't though...or you wouldn't have this issue.

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Old 03-25-2008, 08:01 PM   #19
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Matt Thornton on this issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAUaeo6QeCo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3r-G...eature=related

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Old 03-26-2008, 12:08 AM   #20
edtang
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

This honestly reads to me like someone who wishes Aikido was something it really isn't.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:54 AM   #21
Michael Varin
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

I concur with Kevin.

There is nothing wrong with the principles, philosophy, or techniques of aikido, but the training method leaves a lot to be desired (at least if you expect to use it against a noncompliant person).

Don't get me wrong, you should continue practice the fundamentals, but if you want to use it, you'll have to go beyond that.

The following links are videos showing some of the drills we do at our school. They have various restrictions, and are practiced with varying levels of intensity, but they all involve noncompliant partners. And we don't use atemi.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i02Mkq0yrsE

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9KAbbKRhnN4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tlGST3nR8WY

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NGJCl6IS_xQ

You can do drills like these too. You just have to give yourself permission. If you are interested, send me a private message and I'll give you some ideas on how to structure these drills.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:04 AM   #22
"funky"
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

" In a practical situation Aikido is 90% Atemi" - O Sensei.
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Old 03-26-2008, 02:11 AM   #23
erikmenzel
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

There is pitfall in Aikido-training. Aikido isnt about executing a technique gracefully in a way that it looks beautiful and natural. Looking gracefully, beautiful and natural are all a side effect of the continued study of Suki.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:57 AM   #24
"Jeep"
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

[quote=Anonymous User;202510]
Infact the only way I can make Aikido work for me at all anymore is by adding Atemi. :-( The lost of confidence in my abilities has gotten so bad now that even when doing my technique with others I have to add atemi. It is like a crutch I have to use. I know my teacher has taught atemi many times, but I know alot of the time we havent used it as well. WHY CAN'T I GET IT WITHOUT ATEMI!

I also want to add that I try real hard to obsorbe it, and practise all the time. I focus on every detail, sometimes too hard to the point I lose it.. And I will be honest I am A.D.D, so it is sometimes hard. Honestly I don't know if this is why other people have it by now and I do not. But I honestly feel I am missing everything. I am frustrated and after 8 years I am ready to move to something else.

QUOTE]

The reason why the Atemi works is because it disturb uke's balance. But you should still be able to disturb Uke's balance with Tai-sabaki, so concentrate on taking uke's balance with body movement. Specifically with Ni-kyo there is always a chance you will struggle if you are doing it standing directly in front of uke. So try to do it by positioning yourself more off to uke's side. The arms greatest sphere of strength is directly in front of the human body, moving or extending the arm off to the side weakens this strength making the Ni-kyo easier to apply.

Struggling with people who resist or who are stiff/awkward is a common problem. So you also need to learn how to respond to how uke is reacting. Rather than force the technique on you should switch into something else that is more appropriate for example irimi-nage is a natural follow-on when uke locks up or spins out of shihon-nage. Some of the techniques of aikido flow naturally into others, Ikkyo into Ni-kyo into Sankyo, and you should be reaching the stage now where by the odd other technique slips into the practise (i.e sensei wants you to do technique A but you end up doing technique B instead) these often are the most nicest ones from uke's point of view. I would suggest that you actively ask you seniors to offer some resistance (and give some in return) so that you can explore/learn what to do in these situations.

Above all remember that aikido is full of plateau's where everything you do, seems to be getting worse. In reality you are just consolidating your knowledge and getting ready for the climb to the next level.
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:10 AM   #25
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: The Topic I never Wanted To Post

Edward Tang wrote:

Quote:
This honestly reads to me like someone who wishes Aikido was something it really isn't.
...AND the rest of the aikido world knows EXACTLY what it IS and SHOULD BE?

In my experiences and perceptions, most of us suffer from this. I think the thing that draws us to budo in general is unrest, uneasiness, "something is not quite right", "I want to learn to protect myself", "I want to learn about myself", "A deeper understanding"...list goes on.

The ones I worry about are the ones that think they have the answers. I study with several higher ranking dans, one 6th Dan in particular that has been doing this for 30 years and seems to be re-interpreting aikido and finding new ways to explore it, different perspectives, ways of doing it etc....he will be the first to tell you he has some answers, but mostly not!

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