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Old 03-18-2008, 09:56 AM   #26
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi Ellis,
I am not losing sight of the fact that there are some moral absolutes... If anyone hurt one of my children, it would be touch and go if I stayed out of jail.

This is the second time I've had to deal with this. A friend in DC, great guy, took special care of Patty Saotome when she was ill, ran the kid's program at the DC dojo, got arrested for approaching a minor in a local park. Everyone freaked, of course, but it turned out he hadn't been messing with any of the kids at the dojo. But he went to jail and off the face of the earth as far as the community goes.

So here is this person I've known for years... I know his family, he has, by all appearances been a great Dad, he has an irreplaceable body of Aikido experience, he's taught at my dojo. I like the man very much. Now I find that he's broken. I have a hard time transitioning into some other relationship with him. All of the reasons I like him and respect him are still there but there is this other factor now that changes everything.

This is major stuff... short of murder, nothing will totally end your Aikido career more completely than being shown to be a pedophile. One could be convicted of all sorts of misdeeds, financial malfeasance, involuntary manslaughter, etc, and still be rehabilitate-able in people's eyes. But being a sex offender in our society results in an almost Amish type of "shunning". You become a non-person in an instant. You might as well be dead. In fact, that's much the way folks think of you, as if you died in the instant folks out about your mental illness.

As you pointed out, there is no evidence that these people can be treated. We have not, as a society, figured out how to handle this problem. We incarcerate the perpetrators when we can (although Klickstein never went to jail and is now in a business that involves international travel to places like Thailand - figure out what he's doing...). How we currently handle these things doesn't make a lick of sense. We can't keep them in jail forever, when we release them, no one wants them to live anywhere near them (with good reason as far as I am concerned), so they exist in a perpetual limbo.

Frankly, given that there is no successful treatment for these folks, perhaps we should look at actual solutions to the issue as in life imprisonment, capital punishment, castration, etc. Our current way of not dealing with the issue just leaves us with an on-going problem.

Anyway, when someone shows that he is broken in this way, all of the other factors that existed that made you his friend are still there and it is a very difficult thing to integrate the new model of his being totally and irretrievably broken into your relationship with this person. If they died you'd have a funeral and a memorial service, a set of rituals which allowed the community to adjust and grieve, etc. But for something like this we don't have any method for making the transition.

So I, for one, don't wish to make this transition to my friend's non-existence until I know more about what has happened. I fully realize that, even if nothing comes out that goes beyond what was in the newspaper, it's a done deal for this man. There doesn't need to be any new findings of additional victims, etc. This one instance is enough. I just don't want to go there until I know more. Klickstein never went to court but there was over whelming testimony from multiple victims over a decade of abuse. Clint will be getting his day in court and what happened will become a matter of public record. I can wait until that happens to consign him to the realm of the "dead" in my own mind. Then I'll go through whatever grieving process for my friend will make sense to me. I don't see any particular need to rush this process.

Now, if I had kids in his kid's class that would be another matter because even a hint of a threat, even the smallest possibility of a threat to my children would be enough. They'd be out of there. I assume that this is what has happened at his dojo. I also imagine that most, if not all of his adults students have done the same... but I don't know that for sure. But I don't have to make the shift in my own mind yet. I don't see him very often as it is, only a couple times a year. I can wait to make this transition in my mind until I know more. I think the outcome is predictable but there's simply no rush for me so I'll wait on it.

George S. Ledyard
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:32 AM   #27
Cephallus
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Thank you, Ellis, for your directness. With all of the moral ambiguity we see today, people do forget that there are some moral absolutes left...and the abuse of children is one of them. And that book is a great resource for both parents and people who work with kids. Awareness is the key...what's that quote, something to the effect of "sunlight is the best antiseptic."

A lot of people don't realize that sexual abuse of a minor is usually a very long process - it doesn't just 'happen' in a weak moment. Individuals who carry on 'relationships' with minors spend months, or even years, building the foundation for the abuse first.

One of the things that shocked me when I first got into working with youth sports was learning that there are organizations that actually help facilitate contact between adults looking to abuse children and their potential victims - they publish information about which organizations have policy guidelines that can be exploited by sexual predators and the best methods for working within them. One of the things I like about USA Hockey is that in addition to the required classes, they also perform a thorough background check on all persons seeking a coaching certification, at any level. And they do the same check every time you have to renew, which is every 2 years.

Locally, we had a sex offender move into our community with his parents, which generated a lot of local media coverage. There were protests in front of their house, signs put up, flyers handed out. He had been convicted of forcible sodomy on boys between the ages of 8 and 12, and all of the victims were kids he was coaching in youth sports. Several months after moving here, he was arrested again under suspicion of molesting boys that he was coaching in a softball league in an area about 20 miles from here.

As a parent, I always err on the side of caution. For example, when my son was invited on a camping trip with one of his friends around age 10, I was immediately guarded upon finding out that the only adult going was the other boy's father. Most likely, my son missed out on a fantastic experience with his friend and a genuinely caring dad who wanted to spend some quality time with a couple of really neat kids. But it's just not worth the risk.
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:38 AM   #28
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Just some of my thoughts as a social worker and female aikidoka:

I currently work with adolescents between the ages of 10-16 in a violence-prevention program, and have worked with families for most of my career. I am *not* an "ultimate authority" in anything, but I do have a good deal of experience in child welfare.

With that said, I especially see the need to be EXTREMELY "above board" in this "touchy-feely" martial art we call Aikido. I am angered by Clint George's actions - but I'm not surprised by them, since I am also aware that the Aikido community is fraught with various "indiscretions". Teacher/student boundaries need to be set from day one - regardless of age and gender. The sad reality of the situation is that women and children tend to be on the "receiving end" of inappropriate contact by an instructor - and quite often, not enough is done to properly discipline the perpetrator. To be perfectly blunt, instructors who lack the maturity to control their impulses should NOT be teaching...period.

Sexual abuse has life-long effects; children who were subjected to molestation often continue to have problems (especially with physical intimacy) when they grow up. Same thing with women who have been raped or otherwise assaulted. Consider how much more the problems are compounded when the perpetrator is someone in authority - with the implication that this person is someone to be trusted.

This isn't something that should be "swept under the rug". More open and honest discussion is needed in the dojo.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 10:56 AM   #29
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jennifer,
Thanks for your input. Please remember that Clint George has merely been accused of inappropriate behavior with a juvenile. Don't get angry at his actions just yet. He could very well be the victim here. I've seen it happen with my own eyes. That said, very informative post.
Best,
Jason
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Old 03-18-2008, 11:55 AM   #30
Marc Abrams
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

To those who want to view this alleged incident as an absolute moral issue: What of cultures in which it is not uncommon to marry off your 13 year old daughter?

One of the main reasons that treatment of sexual offenders has a remarkably poor track record, is because a sexual offender is not a set profile (as some would like us to believe). The path to that place in their lives had so many different variables between events and time-in-a-person's life, that finding common variables that can be used in developing treatment modalities is SO difficult.

It is likewise difficult to attribute the acting out of certain impulses or fantasies to "immaturity." That simplifies the issue to a point that renders making effective interventions nearly useless. How do we determine a person's maturity, and in what aspect of their lives?

Both the victim and person committing this type of act are victims. The person committing this act usually has some history that led to some dysfunctional development. Even then, the people ruin their lives (and those who are connected with them) in a manner that they would never have believed it possible for them to intentionally do so. The victim now has a life event that can cause serious developmental problems, that even the best of therapies might not be able to compensate for.

We can provide some protection to society by keeping track and/or isolating known offenders. Identifying potential offenders is not that easy. We can certainly put into place certain external boundaries that can help minimize the instances of this happening. We also need to work on helping people maintain the integrity and values that underlie most of their being. We cannot forget that all of us can have thoughts and fantasies that violate our outward sense of morality without us ever acting in a manner that would violate a law, moral, or ethic.

One of my closest friends passed away from AIDS in the early 90's. He was one of the most gifted therapists I have ever met. He was involved in a car accident in the late 1980's and got blood transfusions (AIDS tainted blood!). Several months before he died, he said "life is not a trial run." Maintaining this kind of awareness in our lives is difficult at best. People cannot ask for "do overs" when incidents like what were alleged happen. If our training (which should reflect how we live our lives) is not really focused on making us better people, then we to run the risk of walking down dark paths where many souls are permanently damaged.

I am deeply saddened by the allegations of these events in our community. I am not unrealistic in being surprised that these events happen. I am glad that we have this forum to openly discuss this issue in hopes of helping people to not act in manners that can destroy their lives and the lives of those around them.

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:01 PM   #31
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

From the newspaper:
"During an interview Saturday, George told police that the relationship with his student of two years started with hugging and “petting” and had progressed in the last three months, the documents say. The two began inappropriately touching each other through their clothes, he told police."

Aren't these Clint's words?

Last edited by jennifer paige smith : 03-18-2008 at 12:05 PM.

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Old 03-18-2008, 12:01 PM   #32
akiy
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate tenor of the discussion so far.

Thank you, everyone, for engaging civilly and respectfully in what I consider to be a very meaningful and important exchange of thoughts, ideas, and information.

-- Jun

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Old 03-18-2008, 12:06 PM   #33
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
To those who want to view this alleged incident as an absolute moral issue: What of cultures in which it is not uncommon to marry off your 13 year old daughter?
But also bear in mind that in most (if not all) of those cultures, women have very few (if any) rights and have little (most likely...no) "say" in those "arranged marriages".

I also understand that these are still "allegations", but I also want caution all of you about viewing the child as the "perpetrator" (e.g., the "seductive child" defense). Just something to think about.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:07 PM   #34
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Hi everyone,

I just wanted to say that I really appreciate tenor of the discussion so far.

Thank you, everyone, for engaging civilly and respectfully in what I consider to be a very meaningful and important exchange of thoughts, ideas, and information.

-- Jun
I also appreciate this. And I appreciate the kind of information being offered, like Ellis's post with several resource links. It is a hard discussion but we are all caring adults with good ideas about how to be appropraite and kind. Thanks.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:09 PM   #35
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

So much drawing of conclusions, so much drawing of lines...so little information, so few facts. We don't know what happened. We don't even know what is alleged to have happened. All we know is that, according to one article on one website, there have been allegations.

Everyone knows that there are adults who engage in sexually inappropriate conduct towards minors. Anyone who is not painfully naive also knows that all you have to do in the present-day climate is to make allegations of same, and before you can say "Think of the children!", the witch-hunt is on and someone's life is ruined. People's minds are made up in an instant: no subsequent evidence to the contrary will change them.

There are those who argue for expedience, that this is a regrettable necessity, to err on the side of caution in order to "protect the children". Maybe so, but OTOH, isn't it possible that this is a false dichotomy? Isn't it possible that there are more alternatives between allowing risky situations to persist, and presuming guilt? And what does it say of us as a society that we fail to find them -- and that some of us actively and belligerently shout down any suggestions that there may be another way?

I hope that the allegations are untrue, and that if they prove to be so, those who have argued in favor of "erring on the side of caution" take an active personal role in repairing the damage to the accused.
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:09 PM   #36
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Smith wrote: View Post
From the newspaper:
"During an interview Saturday, George told police that the relationship with his student of two years started with hugging and "petting" and had progressed in the last three months, the documents say. The two began inappropriately touching each other through their clothes, he told police."

Aren't these Clint's words?
They appear to be his own words...yes. Also notice how he implied that the touching was "consensual"...

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:11 PM   #37
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
They appear to be his own words...yes. Also notice how he implied that the touching was "consensual"...
Yes, that is how I read it as well.

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:17 PM   #38
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
There are those who argue for expedience, that this is a regrettable necessity, to err on the side of caution in order to "protect the children". Maybe so, but OTOH, isn't it possible that this is a false dichotomy? Isn't it possible that there are more alternatives between allowing risky situations to persist, and presuming guilt? And what does it say of us as a society that we fail to find them -- and that some of us actively and belligerently shout down any suggestions that there may be another way?
Hence, my earlier point about the importance of establishing firm teacher/student boundaries from the start. That alone will not stop *all* occurrences of misconduct, but at least there will already be *some* kind of accountability in place.

And those who are in the position of teaching need to be extra vigilant in making sure their behavior towards minors is *always* above reproach. It simply isn't wise practice to work one-on-one with a minor in an empty dojo.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:37 PM   #39
Keith Larman
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Jennifer Yabut wrote: View Post
And those who are in the position of teaching need to be extra vigilant in making sure their behavior towards minors is *always* above reproach. It simply isn't wise practice to work one-on-one with a minor in an empty dojo.
Absolutely. We have an active kid's program and I remember one year when there had been a lot of very bad weather right around the holidays one kid's class was exactly one kid. But there was the instructor and an adult assistant on the mat with them. So two adults. I remember the parent saying it seemed funny seeing what was essentially two instructors on the mat with one student. But we always want at least two adults present at all time. And we always encourage parents to stay and watch each and every class. It is good simply as support for the kid but also so there is no chance of any misunderstandings.

Heck, when I take my daugther to her ballet, piano or horseriding lessons I'm always there watching.

FWIW I've e-mailed the reporter at the newspaper asking for any updates if possible.

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Old 03-18-2008, 12:41 PM   #40
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jun,

I agree and would also like to thank you for your years of continuing effort to help provide this venue that is available for all.

This sort of behavior and abuse of trust brings up very strong emotions that need a public venue that is useful in helping us all learn and grow by the way we communicate and deal with these sorts of activities. For too long this sort of discussion was added to the herd of elephants in the room.

Best Regards,

Chuck Clark
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:48 PM   #41
ChrisMoses
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Information on filing a request for Public Records.

$2 and you can run a search of the public records for Justice Court.

I too would like to see more information, but it is my opinion that we should respect the information presented in this news report. This is a real news source, not a blog, and to have this article stand on their site without correction or retraction for over a week is telling. Slander is a very real concern for a newspaper, and I imagine that if there were glaring errors in this report, Clint's attourney(s) would have brought it to their attention pretty quickly. As anyone who surfs "The Smoking Gun" knows, all it takes is a phone call to get a great deal of detailed information about a pending case or past arrest. I'm assuming this reporter had access to those records. No he has not yet been proven guilty in a court of law, but if I read this story correctly, there was enough evidence to arrest him and charge him with a felony. Additionally it sounds as though there are quite a few emails between them, and he has admitted to police that he did what he's being accused of.

I appreciate everyone's comments and tone. I felt like I'd been hit in the stomach when I heard about this.

I'd like to offer some of my own observations about Ellis' general comments about there being very real moral guidelines. I recently adopted a little girl from China. She was three when we adopted her, so she was not a baby. A very important part of the attachment process is touch: swimming, bathing, lotion, cuddling... I cannot tell you how hard it was very early on in our transition from strangers to family to cross those lines. They are ingrained so deeply that it was always a conscious effort to even enter into the healthy, *non-sexual* and normal role of a parent with this "other" child who I had not known from infancy. These are not lines that one accidentally crosses.

Chris Moses
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Old 03-18-2008, 12:52 PM   #42
Marc Abrams
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jennifer:

I understand and agree with your point about women's rights in different cultures. We simply need to recognize that we view our lives from the cultural context in which we were raised. You and I do not agree about, or condone the arranged marriages of 13 y/o women, nor lack of real rights. That is OUR view point that represents OUR culture. Their are NO moral absolutes in how cultures assign worth to people, regardless of age or gender.

I do not take politically-correct stances when viewing people's actions when I am wearing the "hat" of psychologist. I look at behaviors from a perspective of trying to understand the variables/events that led to certain behaviors. The "seductive teen/child" defense and the "evil" creature offense fall within those realms in my opinion, and provide us with nothing towards coming to understandings that can help prevent future incidents, or even better, predict future incidents.

As a parent of a daughter and grandparent of a grand-daughter, I know where my thoughts and fantasies go when I project what I would want to do if someone harmed them in manners alleged. I strongly condemn these types of abuses and would want people REALLY punished. As a psychologist, coach, teacher, parent, grandparent..... I care about the well-being of those whom I have been entrusted to serve some role in which there is an inequity-power relationship. Wearing the "hat" of psychologist, I try and step back from those other roles and look at human behavior from a perspective that helps to gain understanding in order to make positive changes in helping people to function in healthier and more pro-social roles.

Robert Jay Lifton, M.D., wrote a book "The Nazi Doctors: Medical Killing and the Psychology of Genocide". This book is a remarkable example of a person removing moral judgments and examining the worst of human behavior in order to better help in our understanding of these types of behaviors. With a better understanding, should come better tools to identify and preventing future behaviors (unforutately, recent world history indicates that we are not learning from our mistakes). This model is the one that I am employing when I ask us all to step back from the moral and personal values that we are using to look at these allegations. I hope that we can continue to discuss this topic in a manner that continues to help us understand the behaviors better so that we can better protect ourselves, our children.....

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:08 PM   #43
Cephallus
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So much drawing of conclusions, so much drawing of lines...so little information, so few facts. We don't know what happened. We don't even know what is alleged to have happened. All we know is that, according to one article on one website, there have been allegations.
Yes. Reading back, quite a few people in this thread have been careful to make that distinction.

Quote:
Everyone knows that there are adults who engage in sexually inappropriate conduct towards minors. Anyone who is not painfully naive also knows that all you have to do in the present-day climate is to make allegations of same, and before you can say "Think of the children!", the witch-hunt is on and someone's life is ruined. People's minds are made up in an instant: no subsequent evidence to the contrary will change them.
Exactly. That's why I quipped that it was USAH's risk-management officials that created the Level-1 coaching class...they weren't telling us not to touch kids inappropriately (it was assumed that the teacher was not talking to a room of pedophiles), but rather to absolutely ensure that we were never in a position to even have a possible allegation made against us that we'd touched a child inappropriately. It takes no time at all for your life to be ruined by one unfounded accusation of sexual impropriety towards a child.

Quote:
There are those who argue for expedience, that this is a regrettable necessity, to err on the side of caution in order to "protect the children". Maybe so, but OTOH, isn't it possible that this is a false dichotomy? Isn't it possible that there are more alternatives between allowing risky situations to persist, and presuming guilt? And what does it say of us as a society that we fail to find them -- and that some of us actively and belligerently shout down any suggestions that there may be another way?
Again, reading back, I don't find anyone in this thread even suggesting that guilt should be presumed as a matter of protecting children. Those that suggested caution and vigilance are talking not about accusing people of being sexual predators, but about ensuring that safe policies are in place that protect both the children and the genuinely good people who give selflessly of themselves to teach them. That's the middle ground.

Bottom line is that parents need to be aware of who their child is with at all times, and the best way to do that is to stay involved, as Keith said. Coaches/instructors are not baby-sitters; they should be one part of an active partnership made up of all of the people who help shape a child's life...and that includes the parents.
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Old 03-18-2008, 01:50 PM   #44
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Jennifer said:

Quote:
establishing firm teacher/student boundaries from the start.
Precisely.

I don't know Mr. George, and only know of his reputation.

Now, IF the allegations are correct:

It is not sad, it is deplorable. No matter how good an aikido teacher he was. No matter how 'good' a person he was perceived to be.

IF the allegations are correct:

He's broken the social contract and destroyed at least one life ( the question of whether he actually had a life of his own to destroy is a whole 'nother philosophical discussion).

IF the allegations are correct:

The community and the dojo he was shepherding need information, education and illumination.

IF the allegations are correct:

Then his own words are pretty damning ...

Look, there's no excuse for some of the stupid things we do. (WE, yes, all of us). However, as I've said before, in another forum, there's plenty of legit, legal and willing whoopie to go around without compromising the teacher-student tensegrity, no?

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Old 03-18-2008, 02:05 PM   #45
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

Reading this news is heartbreaking...

When I was in 8th Grade I had an "affair" with my English Teacher...She had allot of empathy for me with two alcoholic parents and lots of confused feelings. We bonded and one thing led to another...It almost destroyed her and I found out much later she was "asked" to retire because of her tendancy to "bond" with male students...

Looking back I realized she saved my life. I was doing drugs and drinking even at that age... very suicidal...with two parents overwhelmed with thier own demons.. She helped get me through it...

All the legal issues and social implications aside there are no winners here... only suffering....

My heart goes out to both and let me tell you this can happen to anybody...Thats right... anybody

I work with at risk teens (boys and girls) and have for years in recovery. You can't help but bond with some of them emotionally but I agree there is a solid line and if you step over it there is no going back...

To me it's just another tragedy being played out and I hope and pray that both of them find peace and forgiveness...

My 2 hard won cents...

William Hazen
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:18 PM   #46
sutemaker17
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
So much drawing of conclusions, so much drawing of lines...so little information, so few facts. We don't know what happened. We don't even know what is alleged to have happened. All we know is that, according to one article on one website, there have been allegations.

Everyone knows that there are adults who engage in sexually inappropriate conduct towards minors. Anyone who is not painfully naive also knows that all you have to do in the present-day climate is to make allegations of same, and before you can say "Think of the children!", the witch-hunt is on and someone's life is ruined. People's minds are made up in an instant: no subsequent evidence to the contrary will change them.

There are those who argue for expedience, that this is a regrettable necessity, to err on the side of caution in order to "protect the children". Maybe so, but OTOH, isn't it possible that this is a false dichotomy? Isn't it possible that there are more alternatives between allowing risky situations to persist, and presuming guilt? And what does it say of us as a society that we fail to find them -- and that some of us actively and belligerently shout down any suggestions that there may be another way?

I hope that the allegations are untrue, and that if they prove to be so, those who have argued in favor of "erring on the side of caution" take an active personal role in repairing the damage to the accused.
Thank you , Mary.
I agree that we tend to jump to conclusions when dealing with this type of discussion because it hits so close to home with so many of us. I am a father. It brings tears to my eyes to think of these things because I know how I would feel if it were my child this was happening to. I have seen the effects of sexual abuse in two very close members of my family. It changes people sometimes to the point that they can no longer function in a real, trusting interpersonal relationship with another human being. It can literally steal someones life by crippling every relationship they have or will ever have. And in my mind ranks it right up there with murder. I also agree that it is nonsense to say that a 13 year old girl can be even partially responsible for something like this taking place. To argue that line of thinking is like trusting someone to train your dog, learning that while under the care of this person he died from severe organ failure caused by the ingestion of antifreeze, finding out that he was purposely and methodically poisoned and then blaming the dog for drinking the antifreeze. A child is not equipped to decide for themselves whether or not to enter into a sexual relationship with anyone any more than a dog is capable of knowing that antifreeze will kill him. So, horse hockey.

When I said that Mr. George could very well be the victim it was not meant to imply that any of the blame be placed on the young lady involved. What I meant was that we have so little knowledge about what actually happened that, for all we know, this could have been started by the girl's uncle who just so happened to be a local law enforcement officer who, also happened to be the ex-husband of George's present girlfriend, who being bitter about the details of his divorce decided to abuse his authority to get back at his ex and Mr. George by fabricating a story of alleged abuse of his position in the dojo to have an inappropriate relationship with one of his underage students. I doubt that I am even close to what really happened but then again no one really knows.

I'm with Mary on this guys. As many people have noted here, whether he did it or not, his life as he knew it will never be the same and I'm betting for the worse. I'm sure we can all see how devastating something like this is to someone's life; guilty or not. How would you feel if you knew that the majority of the Aikido community were reading a thread about an article in the newspaper accusing you of some heinous crime and being powerless to tell your side - especially if you were innocent! I'm glad its not me and I don't mean that in a malicious way.

I am really interested though, to hear more of everyone's thoughts on this. Specifically, how to guard our children from predators and more literature on the subject. Thank you all for the input.
Jason
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:29 PM   #47
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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William Hazen wrote: View Post
Reading this news is heartbreaking...

When I was in 8th Grade I had an "affair" with my English Teacher...She had allot of empathy for me with two alcoholic parents and lots of confused feelings. We bonded and one thing led to another...It almost destroyed her and I found out much later she was "asked" to retire because of her tendancy to "bond" with male students...

Looking back I realized she saved my life. I was doing drugs and drinking even at that age... very suicidal...with two parents overwhelmed with thier own demons.. She helped get me through it...
Wow...thanks for being so upfront and honest. You are fortunate that you survived and endured through such hardships...but it still doesn't make what your teacher did "right". You should know, since you witnessed how her behavior led to the end of her teaching career. If she conducted herself in such a matter today (regardless of the relationship's outcome), she would've been arrested and sent to prison.

Quote:
William Hazen wrote:
I work with at risk teens (boys and girls) and have for years in recovery. You can't help but bond with some of them emotionally but I agree there is a solid line and if you step over it there is no going back...
Exactly.

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:36 PM   #48
Jennifer Yabut
 
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

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Jason Mokry wrote: View Post
I am really interested though, to hear more of everyone's thoughts on this. Specifically, how to guard our children from predators and more literature on the subject.
Althought there really isn't a way to protect a child from *all* harm, parents can take reasonable steps to help protect their children from sexual predators. There is a ton of literature on this very subject, like this: Protecting Chidren from Predators (right-click link to upload).

"The ultimate aim of martial arts is not having to use them." - Miyamoto Musashi
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:37 PM   #49
E.D. Gordon
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

As a survivor of some "near misses" myself in the dojo (having navigated some "not misses" beforehand) I have to say that the opportunity for abuse of relationships in the dojo abounds.

It's the nature of the beast, for one thing. There is a powerful "transference" which occurs during the attachment phase with any teacher. Research psychology to understand this. Anyone qualified to do so, is welcome to explain it.. understanding is one of the most important tools we have.

Disclosure: I am married to my teacher, we met in budo, but we were both over 30, and aware of the pitfalls.

We were prepared to train separately, if necessary. The beginnings were rocky, to say the least, but I love and trust what we do together, in the dojo and out.

At this point, after 7 years in a fully private dojo, the risks inherent in public dojo simply boggle the mind.

Self defense training should run far, far deeper than just muggers and burglars. The Real Deal, in self defense, lies in learning to know your Self and your weaknesses.. and not fall victim to them.

Shout out to Amdur Sensei, and Yamas!

For those dealing with problems like this, I recommend Gavin de Becker's Gift of Fear.

Any other recommendations?

Thanks,

Edge
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Old 03-18-2008, 02:38 PM   #50
Mark Kruger
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Re: Very Disturbing news about Clint George

The article is a source of concern. Nothing more, nothing less. Analysis of innocence or guilt based on the article is premature.

In the article it appears that Clint's admission comes from police documents. A well trained hostile interrogator can extract amazing confessions. I went through a mild version of it in a self defense class during a scenario where you needed lethal force to defend yourself. I managed to keep my head during the interview. Some of my classmates weren't so lucky and were talked into saying things that would have gotten them charged with murder. This was based on a five minute interview in what we knew to be a scenario. An interrogation that lasts hours... especially if you are an upstanding citizen who has no prior experience with that aspect of law enforcement.

Does that mean he didn't do it? No. It means that we don't have enough information.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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