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Old 03-13-2008, 03:04 PM   #101
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance

If you are not training in aikido to effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt you, then is it a martial art?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:28 PM   #102
lbb
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you are not training in aikido to effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt you, then is it a martial art?
That's a topic for a religious war. There are quite a few budo that really don't have modern applications -- kyudo or iaido, for example. Can you say that people who train in these styles are training to "effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt" them, when their art has no modern application?
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Old 03-13-2008, 03:44 PM   #103
Fred Little
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
There are quite a few budo that really don't have modern applications -- kyudo or iaido, for example. Can you say that people who train in these styles are training to "effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt" them, when their art has no modern application?
Mary,

I would say "infrequent" modern application. I would say this because I once actually had a couple of knuckleheads try to mug me in mid-day about a block and a half away from from a martial arts supply store where I had just bought a bokken.

A published account appeared in Black Belt Magazine somewhere around 1987/1988.

Best,

Fred "somebody has to be the exception to the rule" Little
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Old 03-13-2008, 04:47 PM   #104
Aikibu
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you are not training in aikido to effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt you, then is it a martial art?
No it's not...and lets also not forget Aikido helps to "defend" you against the very person who will sometimes try hurt you the most...

Yourself.

William Hazen
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:57 PM   #105
edtang
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That's a topic for a religious war. There are quite a few budo that really don't have modern applications -- kyudo or iaido, for example. Can you say that people who train in these styles are training to "effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt" them, when their art has no modern application?
There's certainly less hand wringing about it from those communities, that's for sure.
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:16 PM   #106
Kevin Leavitt
 
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Re: Resistance

if you fail to use whatever training effectively for whatever reason, does that mean that it is not a martial art???

There is a huge spectrum within the context of "conflict resolution".

Aikido philosophically, and I think literally focuses on the engagement that occurs way before anything overtly physical begins to be seen.

It is a skill that maybe not many understand, or maybe not many are able to effectively use....who knows.

I believe though that this aspect of martial training I have found most useful in my "martial career".

Read Book of Five Rings if you need a refresher or a clearer understanding of what martial is all about.

It is more than physical skills...much more than that.

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Old 03-14-2008, 08:30 AM   #107
DonMagee
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Re: Resistance

Well for the record, I do not really think any 'martial arts' practiced today are martial. I do not call myself a martial artist.

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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Old 03-14-2008, 08:57 AM   #108
lbb
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
There's certainly less hand wringing about it from those communities, that's for sure.
Yup -- that was kind of my point. People who train to use archaic weapons against other archaic weapons don't tend to fret themselves trying to justify the relevance of what they're doing -- or to be insecure about whether what they're doing is a "real martial art".

It's funny that arguments for real-ness tend to base themselves on modern applications and on lineage/heritage. Can you really have it both ways?
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:47 AM   #109
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
People who train to use archaic weapons against other archaic weapons don't tend to fret themselves trying to justify the relevance of what they're doing -- or to be insecure about whether what they're doing is a "real martial art".

It's funny that arguments for real-ness tend to base themselves on modern applications and on lineage/heritage. Can you really have it both ways?
Maybe I should test for red sash rank in Von Steuben-ryu teppo-jutsu, which focuses on the close order musket drill-kata. Or the cannon kata.

Or is that just too obscure a ryu-ha for small-arms and artillery?

http://www.nps.gov/vafo/historycultu...et%20drill.pdf

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 03-14-2008, 10:55 AM   #110
Aikibu
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yup -- that was kind of my point. People who train to use archaic weapons against other archaic weapons don't tend to fret themselves trying to justify the relevance of what they're doing -- or to be insecure about whether what they're doing is a "real martial art".

It's funny that arguments for real-ness tend to base themselves on modern applications and on lineage/heritage. Can you really have it both ways?
I sense your frustration and I used to share it...Folks forget the history of the Martial Arts as a path of "self improvement" goes back just as far as a "skillfull means" for fighting/combat...I harmonized with my own frustration by understanding that any Martial Practice be it Naginata, Tai Chi, or Military Combatives for that matter has the capacity to develop and build Martial Awareness in the person practicing it.

When I was young that was a real need for me to know how to kick butt in the most effective manner possible and when I reached my personel plateau many years ago in this regard I suffered greatly...Why... because was that it? Kick Butt or get your Butt kicked? I had my O'Sensei moment if you will... It was either time to go deeper or stand around with the rest of the "vets" telling stories about the good old days and occasionly picking on some youngster to make me feel good...

Not the kind of character I wished for myself...A serious case of Blackbelt disease...I did allot of studying...went to allot of Dojo's...trained with allot of folks...Until I found what I was looking for...A real (for me anyway) path that I could follow to help me reconcile my Irish Temper with my Big Spirit...

Now as a fat old man I am pretty fooking happy with the results...

I got over being frustrated by wishing that everyone find what it is thier looking for with thier Martial Practice and volunteering to help them if I can...

William Hazen
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:14 AM   #111
jennifer paige smith
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
If you are not training in aikido to effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt you, then is it a martial art?
I don't believe that 90% of the people who I have trained with, and many under, are effective 'martial artists' in some jean claude van damme sorta way. Having said that, what emerged from my practice when I was under attack was extremely effective. I am certain that focused and continuos training build skills that we might not even be aware of and it also stands to say that I was quite a scrapper before aikido but aikido gave me a whole different approach and solution set. And it works!
I remember, and still practice, accepting training with anyone in the dojo;especially people who 'scared' me or who I had an 'issue' with. I just put it out of my mind and trained. I think that is the single skill tat has helped in emergency moments. Acceptance of certain degrees of intensity

Jennifer Paige Smith
Confluence Aikido Systems
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Old 03-14-2008, 11:31 AM   #112
edtang
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Yup -- that was kind of my point. People who train to use archaic weapons against other archaic weapons don't tend to fret themselves trying to justify the relevance of what they're doing -- or to be insecure about whether what they're doing is a "real martial art".
Aikido's far more exposed than those other arts, so it's going to attract more attention. But there are too many Aikidoka IMO who are way too insecure, defensive, or incomprehensibly condescending when it comes to discussions about what they're doing. Nor can some honestly understand or articulate why they're doing what they're doing. And then they get into arguments trying to hit a target that can be completely different from person to person.

Not very aiki, if you ask me. And the community earnestly wonders why Aikido is disliked by some?

As I started dabbling in other martial arts from Aikido, I had no probably identifying myself as someone who trained Aikido before coming to the new dojo (and someone who may unapologetically go back someday).

Each time I clearly articulated why I did and what I got out of it without any sort of apology, pretense or superiority complex, and got nothing but positive energy out of it, even from the young, seemingly aggressive, tattooed male UFC fans in their 20s training MMA or Jiu Jitsu that some Aikidoka look down on.

I remember an earnest discussion after one session at a very rough and tumble old school Judo dojo here in Seattle about Aikido that didn't turn at all into an "Aikido sucks" discussion because I didn't get defensive and attempt to impose Aikido's context or intent onto what those guys were training. My new wrestling coach, who taught me the sudden and some would say violently sudden movements of single and double leg takedowns, told me he admired how elegant and smooth Aikido looked.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's funny that arguments for real-ness tend to base themselves on modern applications and on lineage/heritage. Can you really have it both ways?
Quite frankly, yes, depending on what you mean by lineage or application. And if you are earnestly talking about optimal martial arts in that exact context, Aikido wouldn't be on the top of many people's lists for very pragmatic, unbiased reasons.

And you know what? That's okay.

(cue the circular "but they don't understand what we're doing..." arguments......)
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Old 03-14-2008, 01:25 PM   #113
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Resistance

Hi Ed,

Perfectly reasonable post. I have no issues with it.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 03-14-2008, 04:24 PM   #114
Marc Abrams
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Re: Resistance

William:

The more I read your posts, the more I respect your opinions (which reflect the person) . The "resistance" that I seem to read about in many of these posts seem to reflect people's own personal insecurities, which are then expressed in their Aikido practice. I, like you, use my budo training to polish my spirit and make me a better person (although many would argue that point!). As to my Aikido, I am comfortable with what I can and cannot do. I train diligently to make me a better person and make my expression of My Aikido better. Hopefully, my teachers, training partners, and students will agree with that assessment.

Happy St. Pat.'s!

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-15-2008, 05:24 AM   #115
dps
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
That's a topic for a religious war. There are quite a few budo that really don't have modern applications -- kyudo or iaido, for example. Can you say that people who train in these styles are training to "effectively be able to use it against a person who truly wants to hurt" them, when their art has no modern application?
Modern application does not have to be a criteria for study. Sincere and dedicated practice of what the art is about does not have to have modern application to study it. There are other reasons.

From the 'Aikido is useless without Atemi' thread,

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
..... OTOH, I'm of the belief that you can find some amazing stuff in the sincere and dedicated practice of just about anything. It's just that it comes from the inside, in response to the practice -- it isn't taught by the practice, but it's maybe brought out by the practice.
If what you study does have a modern application then why not be prepared to use it?

David
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:11 AM   #116
lbb
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If what you study does have a modern application then why not be prepared to use it?
Where did I say anything against being prepared to use it? The point is that I don't think many of us would say that "martial arts" are restricted only to those arts that have obvious, pragmatic applications for the average practitioner.
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Old 03-17-2008, 10:56 AM   #117
Aikibu
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
William:

The more I read your posts, the more I respect your opinions (which reflect the person) . The "resistance" that I seem to read about in many of these posts seem to reflect people's own personal insecurities, which are then expressed in their Aikido practice. I, like you, use my budo training to polish my spirit and make me a better person (although many would argue that point!). As to my Aikido, I am comfortable with what I can and cannot do. I train diligently to make me a better person and make my expression of My Aikido better. Hopefully, my teachers, training partners, and students will agree with that assessment.

Happy St. Pat.'s!

Marc Abrams
And a Happy Saint Pat's to you Boyo!

You hit the nail on the head Marc.

William Hazen
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Old 03-17-2008, 07:35 PM   #118
Josh Reyer
 
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Re: Resistance

Quote:
Edward Tang wrote: View Post
There's certainly less hand wringing about it from those communities, that's for sure.
Oh, I dunno. When I read this massive thread on E-Budo.com, I definitely felt some "familiarity pangs" as an aikidoist. And this is simply the biggest. There are other threads, of signficant size, on the same subject. Certainly, no iaidoka feels he has to justify himself to mixed martial artists, but when someone from a kenjutsu school says iaido is impractical and combat-ineffective, things can get a little heated.

(Re: that thread. You have to separate the wheat from the chaff, but there is some absolutely awesome writing by Ellis Amdur in there, if you care to look for it.)

Similarly, there does seem (from the outside) to be some tension in the kyudo community between "practicality" and "spirituality", to the degree that, believe it or not, whether or not it's important to hit the target is actually a subject of discussion.

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
- Chaucer
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