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Old 03-06-2008, 06:26 AM   #26
mickeygelum
 
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-32288.html

Quote:
My belief is that there is no such "thing" as Ki/Chi/Qi/Prana.
Rather, I believe that through training our bodies become strong and flexible, and we learn techniques for moving our own bodies and controlling our opponents' bodies in the most efficient manner.

What we perceive as a mysterious force is just a combination of focused intention and good kinesthetics.
There you have it...I agree with this completely.

Everyone is entitled to follow their own path. When unreasonable and outlandish claims of bridling the power of the universe are stated, the originator should be held accountable.

It is of great distress to me that when an individual post links to prove their point, the video shows that they do not accomplish what they are stating. On-the-other-hand, it is even more distressing that when an individual links a video, and proves that they do exactly what they are stating, the other(s) will not accept it.

The most disturbing, in my opinion, outright incompetence and deception. We all, for the most part, are intelligent and educated individuals. We have years of experience in our own individual fields. We all share a passion for the martial arts. We know who is trying to convince us that the world is flat. There are statements and examples that I know not to be true...why argue? The individual(s) has no experience or expertise in support of their claim, by their own admission, either by credentials, reply or video.

Why further their self-validation. An unwaterred plant will die.

Peace, love and and all that ya-da ya-da.

Mickey
 
Old 03-06-2008, 06:46 AM   #27
gdandscompserv
 
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
When unreasonable and outlandish claims of bridling the power of the universe are stated, the originator should be held accountable.
Blasphemy! Stone him!
Quote:
...I felt the universe suddenly quake, and that a golden spirit sprang up from the ground, veiled my body, and changed my body into a golden one. At the same time my body became light. I was able to understand the whispering of the birds, and was clearly aware of the mind of God, the creator of the universe.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 08:02 AM   #28
Stefan Stenudd
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
Lets assume for the sake of argument, that "ki" is a physical skill. If so, what mechanisms within your body power it.
If doing aikido without it, is still aikido, why would it be considered a shortcut?
I discovered that I missed answering your questions, which I guess were for me.

I don't really understand what it means to assume that "ki" is a physical skill. If you refer to how the use of ki influences how you use your body, I must say it is to me almost too complex to describe.
Actually, I find the use of the idea of ki excellent because it simplifies what would otherwise be a number of things to have in mind when you do an aikido technique. Things like timing, finding optimal angles, keeping one's balance, and so on, are easier to learn by thinking of ki flows, than by thinking of what muscles to use et cetera.

As for the shortcut thing, I agree with you: why, indeed?
What I referred to was the attitude among some aikidoists that if you use ki you don't have to work on physical aspects of the techniques, such as balance and steady positions, and the pure mechanics of it all.

Stefan Stenudd
My aikido website: http://www.stenudd.com/aikido/
My YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/Aikidostenudd
 
Old 03-06-2008, 08:45 AM   #29
Mike Sigman
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Re: Nature of ki

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
And miss my point again and again....
Of course... everyone seems to "miss your point". It's as predictable as you never being wrong.

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-06-2008, 08:58 AM   #30
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Stefan Stenudd wrote: View Post
I don't really understand what it means to assume that "ki" is a physical skill. If you refer to how the use of ki influences how you use your body, I must say it is to me almost too complex to describe.
Actually, I find the use of the idea of ki excellent because it simplifies what would otherwise be a number of things to have in mind when you do an aikido technique. Things like timing, finding optimal angles, keeping one's balance, and so on, are easier to learn by thinking of ki flows, than by thinking of what muscles to use et cetera.

As for the shortcut thing, I agree with you: why, indeed?
What I referred to was the attitude among some aikidoists that if you use ki you don't have to work on physical aspects of the techniques, such as balance and steady positions, and the pure mechanics of it all.
Using ki and how one does a technique are two very different things. The ideas of "not resisting" and "blending with an attack" are not unique ideas to Aikido. But the usage of ki is pretty much Asia-wide in the martial arts, so the implication that ki is uniquely related to Aikido is simply far, far off.

You train the physical ki with motion using intent, usually in Aiki Taiso, with conditioning doing breathing/stretching/moving, and with learning to move so that the body is powered from the legs/hara and not the shoulders. Some of these ideas about "flowing", etc., don't do much but highlight the questions about the teaching ranks in Aikido, in my personal opinion.

Again, I think it's best to set some minimal threshold before someone can even talk about what is and what isn't ki. If someone has/understands ki, they should at a minimum be able to replicate Tohei's fairly simple static "ki tests". All else is just talk. And if someone can really do those things well, I think people will suddenly find that there will be a great common dialogue and a lot less of the "here's my theory" stuff. (shudder)

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-06-2008, 09:39 AM   #31
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... replicate Tohei's fairly simple static "ki tests". All else is just talk. And if someone can really do those things well, I think people will suddenly find that there will be a great common dialogue and a lot less of the "here's my theory" stuff.
Dialogue is two people speaking together using their own words. You will not admit of anyone else speaking unless they use YOUR words, hence that is NOT a dialogue.

Believe it or not there are more than a few ways to accurately describe the same things in different terms. Heck, there are two mutually exclusive and irreconclilable terms of reference for magnetic fields, and yet the power comapnies seem to manage them alright.

You are free to dislike other terms of reference, but unless you want to take them apart or engage them, your criticisms, in that regard, have as much validity as your judgment of one's physical performance by choice of terms.

I do not need to validate your perspective to be assured of what I can see and do from my own. You say we need to broaden our horizons. Back at you. You have not tried to see what I see from my perspective -- you just say it cannot be worth the climb across to where I am perched, simply because what I describe seems so different from what you describe see from your perch. And yet in the situation reversed, you say that our perspective is necessarily deficient and we need to come to where you are sitting.

It is silly, really.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 09:57 AM   #32
Upyu
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Re: Ki does not exclude the other stuff

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Dialogue is two people speaking together using their own words. You will not admit of anyone else speaking unless they use YOUR words, hence that is NOT a dialogue.
Er, I dunno, I had no problem understanding what Mike said, nor him I, if you care to dig back into the archives of Aikiweb
And I'd never even heard of him.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 10:53 AM   #33
dps
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

My apologies to Jun, Mike Sigman and Eric Mead for my inappropriate thread.

David
 
Old 03-06-2008, 11:04 AM   #34
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Hey Mike,

I love a good challenge. Name the Tohei feats you want me to try and accomplish. I will keep it real and do it on video. Success or failure, I am up for it.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 12:12 PM   #35
Mike Sigman
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
I love a good challenge. Name the Tohei feats you want me to try and accomplish. I will keep it real and do it on video. Success or failure, I am up for it.
I don't think engaging you any further on the ki/kokyu skills is going to be any more productive than it has already, Chris. We've seen your videos and at least one of your tall-tales about who you studied with has come back to bite you in the butt. You need to go see someone and start learning this stuff, rather than offering to show/tell on a "teacher" level.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
 
Old 03-06-2008, 01:28 PM   #36
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

please tell me who on or off line.
I have told no lies.
 
Old 03-06-2008, 03:05 PM   #37
akiy
 
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Re: Ki in a Physical Sense

Another thread which has degenerated into personal discussions. Thread closed.

-- Jun

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