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Old 02-18-2008, 09:19 PM   #51
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
(1) So if you two guys can define chi so concretely, please now offer me something allot more concrete. Explain how the uproot occurs. Or better still, show me a video of it and support it with your explanation. Mr. Sigman, we have not seen you move. Would you take on this challenge and enlighten this old man?
I'm going to let that one go, Chris. It's like asking me if I can tie my shoes.
Quote:
(2) Lets just get some coconuts and break them together in a spirit of friendship.
Or bricks. Or river-rocks. Shades of Jim Lacey. Why learn to break exotic things like coconuts? I haven't spoken to him in many years. You bring back memories. But you're talking in merit-badges/names again.
Quote:
Secondly, It would seem that if this is truly a discussion, parity would be part of the deal. But, somehow, I think this is more like an inquisition and you are the Pope. It reeks of insincerity.
Seriously. Go back and look. You made a public assertion. I questioned it. I have never gotten a straight answer to my question and that's all I got into the discussion for.
Quote:
You seem to want to debate yet you will not accept appeals to (1) my personal experience, (2) appeals to my teacher's authority and what they taught me or (3) appeals to written authorities that agree with me. Even if I cared to debate, it seems I would not know where to go to begin a discussion. debating breeds contention. I much prefer harmony. Irenics rather than polemics.
That was pretty good. In a debate, Chris, the point is that one argues the points, not various unsupported appeals to authority. Think about it for a sec.
Quote:
I will use my own verbose style and spell Chinese terms as I remember them.[[snip]]

My path is to simply allow Chi to do its thing. I affirm you in your path. Will you affirm me in mine?
Chris, I admit all this is fun to read, but it's pretty much beside the point. You've convinced me that you read a lot. I'll bet you can break things, too. Your descriptions of chi and the way you mix in guys like CMC, Mantak Chia, Mike Patterson, etc., are rather, er, "innovative", to say the least.... but you still never answered a question. You name-dropped and told mixed/confused anecdotes in a way I've never heard a real expert do... and you appealed to the harp-strings of my finer side. Next thing you know we'll be telling each other ghost stories or fish stories, not just chi stories!

Affirmatively,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:52 PM   #52
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

You know, it's not really about me, but more about newbies (because I've been one so many times) that I think I'm going to add something, against my better judgement:

Quote:
I will use my own verbose style and spell Chinese terms as I remember them.

Mantak Chia, CMC (via Bill Funsion, student in the CMC tradition), Mike Patterson, Doo Wai) all used different methods.

I will approach these experiences as a timeline to press the point on how I came to following my specific path.

Bill Funsion (CMC-Style Tai Chi) 1974-1986

My training in CMC-style Tai Chi (37 movements) was at the hands of Bill Funcion. He was a federal agent who had recently been moved to Southern California. He was a student of one of CMC's top students. Bill brought his teacher to our dojo in my second year of training (1975) at Parker Linekin's Academy of the Martial Arts. I was 21 years old and in great shape from surfing about 6 hours a day. I was the first to volunteer to be "bounced" by the this Tai Chi Master. He hardly moved at all. His two forefingers were all that touched me. I was in a wai-gong-style Kenpo forward bow. I remember the feeling of a light electrical shock. Then I was airborne and on my rear. I had travelled about three feet off the ground and about 15 feet backwards. I remember afterwards that my neck must have been tight because I got a whiplash out of it.

Though I had trained with Master Liang and Parker Linekin in Yang and Wu styles for a year, I began also learning from Bill privately at his home. The only payment was for me to take his son places when he was on TDY. Our training in Nei Gung consisted of a very Taoist approach to moving Chi. The idea was to let nature do most of the work. We used primarily mental imagery, light perineum puckering (reminded me of "Kegel exercises"), and no forced breath or gut-wrenching muscle constrictions. Kind of weird for a 21year old guy that surfed, pumped weights and managed a health spa in the summer. We concentrated on how energies felt and debriefed them regularly. He never told me how it was supposed to feel. He just had me concentrate on (1) the soles of my feet, my legs, my spine, my arms, and the palms of my hands. Sometimes we traced the lines with our fingers to gently lead the path.

Mike Patterson, Sr. (Hsu Hong Chi's Hsing-I) 1976-1978??

I began training under Mike Patterson Sr. somewhere around 1976 if I remember correctly. A buddy who had lived in Taiwan and trained with Hung I Shiang had taken me to him. A case of Corona in hand and a willing spirit, I was accepted into his garage-dojo. Mike Patterson used aggressive perineum puckering to literally drive (or suck) sexual energy, earth energy and heavenly energy through the microscopic orbit. It was a blending of hard and soft. We focused on Fa Ging as developed through Tien Kan (Heavenly Stem Linear Pa Kua) exercises, White Crane exercises, bouncing ourselves off a vertical post to feel the coordinations needed for fa Ging, and doing a strange form of Pi Chen by pulling a karate belt that was tied to a large spring and suspended in his garage's ceiling. We breath packing ( 2 directions) and mental imagery to guide our chi up and out the hands with each movement in our linear forml. We would pucker the perineum before and after each move. Often, we would train our "Iron Vest" by striking our solar plexus while advancing in a Hsing-I stance while exhaling and doing the perineum pucker. We used mental imagery to attack the attacking fist with our torso. A real Tuff-guy training method. I can still take a pretty good shot in the solar plexus. Of course, cleansing meditations followed these kind of practices.

I also did iron palm with him using a bathtub, a cinderblock and a wet towel. We used our internal breathing as meditation before, during and after the iron palm. We did our training at the same time of morning every day and used sexual abstinence to assist.
I was told how to perform a Nei Gung that included hanging weights around my scrotum while performing my breathing exercises. I was warned not to do it longer than 4 months at a time and do it at the same time of day in the early mornings (4:00 am). The weights would swing as I breathed. Slippage was painful, but the internal pulling, stresses and stretching was certainly good Nei Gung and more aligned to the young testosterone-driven ways of youth. Of course, celibacy was mandatory. I was a fan of Patterson's Chi development style as late as 1986.

Mantak Chia (1984-1987)

Mantak Chia's was the most elaborate and I can only suspect that is because, by his own words, it was Tibetan as much as it was Chinese…. a fusion of the two that I am sure was not systematized as you claim, until he fused them.

We began with relaxing the body and the internal organs through breath and mental imagery. He allowed us to sit with an erect spine and a curved arch as long as our scrotum was free of any pressure. His system used the puckering of the perineum to literally drive or suck (depending on the imagery you used) sexual energy, earth energy and heavenly energy through the microscopic orbit and settling them into the Dantien. From there, we used the "six healing sounds" and "fusion of the five elements" (five major organ systems) to further "balance organ energies" by using vibration and more mental imagery. Aside from the health benefits, the martial purpose of this exercise was to create layers of Chi around the walls of the organs so that they had protection against blunt trauma. (IMO Patterson's weight were just a harsher method of obtaining the same results.)

The feeling was, however different than Patterson's method. I would describe my experience of this as having a balloon blown up around an organ and then another balloon blown up around the first balloon. Perhaps a little like getting a collagen shot in the lips. (A buddy in the Department of Justice who was a Tibetan White Crane Master had done a similar Tibetan with his iron palm training. His hands had actual chi bumps in them that acted as buffers when he hit things….and boy could he hit things.)

Pong energy was developed by lightly pushing against your training partner on all parts of his torso, legs and arms. Iron shirt was developed with breath and muscle pressures and light dit bu sam performed with bamboo and hand slapping. That is as far as I went with him.

Wai Fong Doo (1985-1987)

I began getting cross currents in training method once I met Doo Wai. Parker Linekin and Brian Adams, (and yes, the notorious Jim Lacey) had been training with him for some time. He has better credentials than anyone I had met in the internal arts. His family was a prominent medical family for centuries. His ancestor, Doo Tin Yin assisted Fung Do Duk when the Shaolin Temple in Fukien was destroyed. During his stay with Doo Tin Yin, he taught his kung Fu to the family. The Doo family method as taught by Doo Wai was simple and quite Taoist. It was primarily a form of breath packing. The videos he has on YouTube show me that he has not changed his percentages or sequences since I trained with him. But the Fa Ging he displays in these newer video streams do not do him justice. In his prime, he was a Fa Ging "machine gun" popping every punch with quick, never-ending whipping and thrusting motions. I remember making a joke to one of my friends saying, "Now that is truly the sound of one hand clapping".

But why was his system so simple? I suspect that real Taoists just allow nature to do most of the work. He taught a similar Dit Bu Sam to me using bamboo to tap the chi. We used P-rocks suspended in a cloth sack to train iron palm....no hot water to aid the chi flow as the patterson's did. I used herbs like Dot Da Jow and Dai Chi Jow to work their magic in bringing Chi to the bones as well as healing and toughening the bones.

As I have stated before, Doo's test was to break coconuts. I never was able to bust a suspended one. Jim Lacey was able to do this. I think Vincent Peppers did as well. But I could and often have broken coconuts with my heel-of-palm and a backstop.

I began to prefer the simplicity of the Taoist systems as taught by Doo Wai and as I remembered them from my young training under Bill Funsion's CMC. Nowdays, I do the simple way as I really prefer to allow natural forces do what they naturally do….without contention and without chasing chi. I had come full circle.
All that stuff you wrote is strikes me like in a funny way, and the closest I can come to an apt analogy is this:

Let's say that I know something about computers... not on the level of a guy with a computer-science major or even a good computer tech down at Circuit City, but I wanted to try and leave the impression that I was a computer expert. So I write this post to some discussion board and I mix together words like "packets", ISP's, "email", Borland C++, etc., thinking that people will buy it as informed. People who don't know anymore about computers than me might well buy it. But run that kind of stuff by someone that's knowledgeable and all you'll get is an eyeroll. Problem is that some kid wanting to be start out in the computer field might buy into it and waste a few years of time.



Mike
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:52 PM   #53
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

I guess it is your way or the Highway.
Sayonara.
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Old 02-19-2008, 06:16 AM   #54
DH
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Chris
How about there is a different way to move and/or cause movement than that which you describe and demonstrate here? And that it isn't about who is right or wrong.
I will say after watching you move and reading your explanations that I do not move the way you do, would not describe double weighted the way you do, wouldn't get caught "weighted" in the way you are trying to avoid because I don't carry my weight the same or move my body the way you do.
How about for me double-weighted would be to get "caught" carrying my body...the way you are striving for!.
Thus your single-side mode is my view of weakness. The way you move is a characteristic, Japanese model (one could say classical model- except for extent koryu weapons movement that don't move that way either) for receiving and getting thrown!
In about 5 minutes I or twenty other guys I know could show you why. You seem a very practical guy so I think you would NEVER go back to the way you move now. FWIW Chris every, single, guy I have shown these things to dumps what they knew, and wants to strive to move this way instead- within their own arts. That includes an extremely wide ranging span of arts and some very experienced folks.
What does that say? That says to me is that we-not me, Chris-WE stand together...facing a superior way to move that our Asian founders discovered or embraced.
So, maybe no one is striving to be right over others, but rather to show or point to a way that is superior movement, over what many are doing. Maybe some smart asian Johnie who invented this stuff can get all puffed up about his invention-all the rest of us are-as Meik Skoss is want to say-just bums on the budo bus. It's a process of discovery for us all.
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Old 02-19-2008, 09:54 PM   #55
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

love your style of talking.
let's talk off line.

Regards,

Fellow bum
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Old 02-20-2008, 09:31 PM   #56
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I will say after watching you [Chris Parkerson] move and reading your explanations that I do not move the way you do, would not describe double weighted the way you do, wouldn't get caught "weighted" in the way you are trying to avoid because I don't carry my weight the same or move my body the way you do.
Why don't you post a video showing the way you move? Then Chris can re-post his video, and we can compare the two side-by-side. Of course, if you're shy, perhaps Stan Baker and Cady could demonstrate --- after all, they've been studying with you long enough to get it, haven't they?

Jim
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Old 02-21-2008, 09:10 AM   #57
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You know, it's not really about me, but more about newbies (because I've been one so many times) that I think I'm going to add something, against my better judgement:

All that stuff you wrote is strikes me like in a funny way, and the closest I can come to an apt analogy is this:

Let's say that I know something about computers... not on the level of a guy with a computer-science major or even a good computer tech down at Circuit City, but I wanted to try and leave the impression that I was a computer expert. So I write this post to some discussion board and I mix together words like "packets", ISP's, "email", Borland C++, etc., thinking that people will buy it as informed. People who don't know anymore about computers than me might well buy it. But run that kind of stuff by someone that's knowledgeable and all you'll get is an eyeroll. Problem is that some kid wanting to be start out in the computer field might buy into it and waste a few years of time.



Mike
Mr Sigman

I must say I am very disappointed in your recent behavior to Mr Parkerson. Apparently you fashion yourself the ki/chi police and whoever does not fall into your dogmatic perception of reality is confused and must be called out as a charlaton.

If you think you have a better way of movement, great, say it, post it, and argue for that. But, arguing that a person's experiences are wrong (from your limited perspective) is ridiculous and self-serving.

Whats next? If I want to share something that doesnt perfectly line up with your view, perhaps I should email you first so you could okay it? Come on Mike. I think you are a better person that that.

Mr Parkerson

I must say very even handed posts for the most part. Whether I agree completely or not with your views, I enjoy reading about them. Dont mind Sigman too much, he likes to post.

-Blake
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:26 AM   #58
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Pong and Apple Pie

I was at the Mojo last night to film some hsing-I. My camera was broke so we had dinner instead. Then we said, Oh what the hey"

I present to you "Fat Man does Hsing-I with a happy "opu" (Opu is Technical Internal Hawaiian Lua term for stomach). But ya gotta say it right or it don't mean nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sweQTGOviNM
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:34 AM   #59
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
I must say I am very disappointed in your recent behavior to Mr Parkerson. Apparently you fashion yourself the ki/chi police and whoever does not fall into your dogmatic perception of reality is confused and must be called out as a charlaton.
I don't "fashion" myself as anything, Blake. I stated an opinion, which started out, as you remember, with me asking Mr. Parkerson to clarify an assertion that *he* made. He never did so. He regaled us with the largest single sessions of name-dropping and confused references that I've ever seen on a non-fantasy web-forum. My comment was along the lines that I don't subscribe to the Baron Munchausen School of Martial Arts. If you yourself have something substantive to add, to defend the stories that Mr. Parkerson told, etc., why don't you do so? As far as I can tell, your post actually was nothing other than a vague personal opinion about other people posting. I'd suggest that if you like Mr. Parkerson's approach and you're sure it's correct, you should go study with him.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 02-21-2008 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:35 AM   #60
DH
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Jim Sorrentino wrote: View Post
Dan,Why don't you post a video showing the way you move? Then Chris can re-post his video, and we can compare the two side-by-side. Of course, if you're shy, perhaps Stan Baker and Cady could demonstrate --- after all, they've been studying with you long enough to get it, haven't they? Jim
Sigh...
Video would not help you, Jim. You wouldn't know the difference and be able to discuss it with me anyway. I could show you and teach the difference to you, but I don't want to. As for my movement. Those who truly want to know, ask. If I like them they come to train, as many have and I help as best I can.

Since you want to talk about people getting it, I'd offer that "Getting it" by training a long time with certain teachers seems to offer no guarantee does it? I was just talking about this with guys from down your way who are looking for real teaching, now that they have encountered real skill. Up here...people are learning and improving, and always have.
Sadly though others-even after being exposed to what amounts to simple basics in aiki power a few years ago and decades into their careers- remain stiff as boards. From what I hear-some of these guys better keep attending these seminars whenever they can, It's clear some of them are not doing the work, and their juniors are passing them by. They... are clearly not "getting it."
Good luck in your training
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Old 02-21-2008, 10:59 AM   #61
DH
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Chris
There is too much to get into. Pause at 1:32 in. The way you carry your weight and "launch" with your punches, is the same way you use a sword. If you freeze frame right there with your right hand punch- you can imagine someone walking in and destabilizing you on your right side. You are open to a rear throw or forward throw, and have gone along way to setting up your own Kuzushi. Its a classic Japanese Ukemi set-up to throw people. I'd say "Thanks!" Of course you can "do" a waza, reversal or hit to stop them blah, blah, blah, but all that is doing is compensating for the problem and inherent weakness in the way you move.
.
For starters you are using a far lower percentage of your weight in what you do. Were you to learn how to manage the arch in your legs to your spine, then the upper center to your spine you could manage to turn at the waist while drawing power from the gorund in both feet and remaining live on them instead of dead. This was what I was trying to tell you about your notion of double weighting being different from what I do. My idea of double weighting is havng my weight and power in my hand and feet on one side.
For starters if you moved the way I was advocating you would
1. Bring power across your body line and hit with a far greater percentage of mass
2. This would allow you to hit harder and more relaxed
3. Would make you far more able to turn the strike into a throw
4. Would all but eliminate or at least significantly reduce your notion of double weighing (being caught dead weighted between your feet
5. Would enable you to ghost one side while causing a huge power surge on the other. Dividing anyone’s power input into you, while you remain relaxed, sensitive and mobile.
6. Were someone to grab you on that side you can move with that same leg since your wouldn't be weighted there anymore and you can do all manner of set-ups.
7. Your weapons work as shown in the previous videos here on this thread demonstrated much the same thing. IMO the video and the explanation is a dissertation on what NOT to do in classical Koryu weapon work, YMMV.
That is just a very, small, intro what you can benefit by learning to carry and support your weight differently,
Last, I probably wouldn’t rush to *do* more videos. I know very little about the Chinese arts. I do know that the lack of structure you display is not what they are trying to convey.
Anyway Its damn difficult to show it, Bud, but I could have you doing it in short order and I'd betcha dinner you would NEVER go back to the way you are currently moving.

Last edited by DH : 02-21-2008 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:01 AM   #62
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

You are right as rain. I am stiff. My back has too much scar tissue to play hard/soft fa Ging much anymore.

That is why I returned to the Cheng Man Ching way of soft power.
The hard/soft is for the athletic, young buggers, and a few lucky old men who do not have a lifetime of scar tissue. I have played quite hard in my lifetime.

True art adapts to the physical frame you are given by Kartma at birth or acquire from the follies of life. That is why one size does not fit all.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:09 AM   #63
DH
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
You are right as rain. I am stiff. My back has too much scar tissue to play hard/soft fa Ging much anymore.

That is why I returned to the Cheng Man Ching way of soft power.
The hard/soft is for the athletic, young buggers, and a few lucky old men who do not have a lifetime of scar tissue. I have played quite hard in my lifetime.

True art adapts to the physical frame you are given by Kartma at birth or acquire from the follies of life. That is why one size does not fit all.
Naw thats not it bud. Its not just sitffness, not even close. I'm an old fart too.
Its far more involved than that and your back would do what I am talking about far easier than what you are trying to do now, and you power would go waaaay up.
If you wanted to know what I mean or really wanted to understand it we'd have to get together. So lets wait till you think you'de like to explore something different that the way you move now. I'd hate to let the disagreement separate us with anger or contention, but Like I said "Dinner is on me if you don't say"
"DAMN! what the hell is that?"
"How do I do that?"
And we'd have fun.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:13 AM   #64
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
From what I hear-some of these guys better keep attending these seminars whenever they can, It's clear some of them are not doing the work, and their juniors are passing them by. They... are clearly not "getting it."
Good luck in your training
Dan, you keep making references to talking to people who have "trained with Ark, Mike" etc., and comparisons from the people who you've talked to. You've done this a number of times and I haven't commented, but I hope you understand that you're essentially putting the very few people *I* know who have done the cross-training in a position where they may not be allowed into other training. Because there's only a few of them and they're easy to pick out. Maybe instead of making the veiled references in the way you're doing, you should just drop it? If they're pals of yours, you're certainly not doing them any favors.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:17 AM   #65
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Hey Dan,

I would still love to talk off line with you if you are interested.

You wrote:

Quote:
Last, I probably wouldn't rush to *do* more videos. I know very little about the Chinese arts. I do know that the lack of structure you display is not what they are trying to convey.
Do you remember Jim kelley in Enter The Dragon??

Han asked him what would happen the day he loses a fight. Kelley said, "I'll be too busy lookin' good." Well, he lost his life at the hands of Han.

I am not really worried about what my old torn up body looks like when I move. I AM interested in how superior body mechanics effects my training partner when I perform technique. Let's talk off-line.

Perhaps I'll post a Tai Chi Press next week. That way it is not just a form done in the air.

Just keepin' it real.
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:21 AM   #66
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
That is why I returned to the Cheng Man Ching way of soft power.
I'm not sure what the "Cheng Man Ching way of soft power" is because the Yang-style Taiji, which CMC patterned his style on, also uses many of the power release exercises from the Old Frame Er Lu that the Chen style uses. The Chen-style usage is more or less the same type of power generation that Xingyi uses, so we come full circle. Unless you're talking about the Shil Lum Pai stuff that Jim Lacey does.

My comment about your body motions, Chris, would be there's a lot more to it than can be tossed off in a paragraph or two, but what Dan's getting at has a lot to do with jin/ging/kokyu-power and that would be a good start. But if you do get interested in that stuff, you'll find that the qi does indeed lead the strength/jin.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:28 AM   #67
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Hi Mike and Dan,

Having been to see both of you, and having great respect for both of you (only partly because either of you could kick my butt while eating lunch), please...

Don't put me between you. Squash like grape!

Seriously, I think I've been complimentary to you both, and do my best to maintain my relationships. If'n either of you have an issue with me...call me. Don't sort out any stuff with me on the web.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
-----------------------
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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Old 02-21-2008, 11:36 AM   #68
Chris Parkerson
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Folks,

I am a curious sort by nature. I am also open to training with anyone who has

(1) a theory, concept or principle that they have wroked hard to prove

(2) and who is neither a bully or a god.

Real simple prerequisites. I come without guile and open my arms in abrazo to anyone who feels the same way.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:05 PM   #69
MM
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Chris Parkerson wrote: View Post
Folks,

I am a curious sort by nature. I am also open to training with anyone who has

(1) a theory, concept or principle that they have wroked hard to prove

(2) and who is neither a bully or a god.

Real simple prerequisites. I come without guile and open my arms in abrazo to anyone who feels the same way.
Chris,
You would come away with a whole lot of stuff working with either Mike or Dan. They both have #1 and #2. (There are a lot of people who might post differently, but those are probably the people who haven't met either of them.)

Like Ron, I sometimes find myself in the middle of both of them. Not an easy place to be. So, if you're trying to find a difference in them, the only one I've found so far (from a beginner's perspective) is this:

If you lean more towards Chinese Martial Arts, go with Mike.
If you lean more towards Japanese Martial Arts, go with Dan.

IMO anyway,
Mark
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:24 PM   #70
DH
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post

If you lean more towards Chinese Martial Arts, go with Mike.
If you lean more towards Japanese Martial Arts, go with Dan.

IMO anyway,
Mark
Maybe I would say
"If you lean more towards- learning some applications in-Chinese Martial Arts, go with Mike."
"If you lean more towards- learning some applications in-Japanese Martial Arts, go with Dan. "
But training does not need to incorporate fighting if that is not your interest.
I know Chinese artists who see the things I do directly relating to what they do. I would say there are more things in common in body skills, just not in waza and approach to fighting with them.
How would intent and breath-power simply HAVE to relate to fighting?
It doesn't. It just happens to relate to everything Including shoveling, lifting, working and...fighting.

Last edited by DH : 02-21-2008 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:27 PM   #71
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Chris,
You would come away with a whole lot of stuff working with either Mike or Dan. They both have #1 and #2. (There are a lot of people who might post differently, but those are probably the people who haven't met either of them.)

Like Ron, I sometimes find myself in the middle of both of them. Not an easy place to be. So, if you're trying to find a difference in them, the only one I've found so far (from a beginner's perspective) is this:

If you lean more towards Chinese Martial Arts, go with Mike.
If you lean more towards Japanese Martial Arts, go with Dan.

IMO anyway,
Mark
Before this gets out of hand, Mark, let me point out that I only reacted to Dan's making veiled references to people who talk to him about comparisons. Dan's been the only one that brings up that topic in the last year or so and my comment was that he's basically ensuring that no one who trains with him is going to get much at a few other peoples' workshops. That's one topic.

The topic about who to train with, please leave me out of it. Dan is the one who meets people to make friends and all that. I'm basically trying to keep the playing field level and working on my own project of finding the simplest, most effective way to train these sorts of skills. And that is only tangentially related to Aikido, since most Asian martial arts have these skills in one form or another. My "project" is all that really motivates me; not side issues. When I meet the occasional rare individual who is narrowly focused on just the clinical mechanics of the martial arts and these skills, I'm happy to meet him and get into discussions. But until I feel like someone is really interested in these sorts of things, I don't have a compulsion to "meet and share" for more social reasons. I.e., I've been in martial arts too long to think that the majority of martial artists are there for non-social reasons.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-21-2008, 12:28 PM   #72
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Maybe I would say
If you lean more towards- learning some application in-Chinese Martial Arts, go with Mike.
If you lean more towards- learning some application in-Japanese Martial Arts, go with Dan.

I know a few Chinese artists who see the things I do driectly trelating to what they do
Isn't that what I just said?

Okay, okay, if you want to get technical.
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Old 02-21-2008, 01:56 PM   #73
Jim Sorrentino
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Dan,
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Sigh...
Video would not help you, Jim. You wouldn't know the difference and be able to discuss it with me anyway.
You have never even met me, so how do you know this? And further, how do you know that others reading this thread may not have the ability to see the differences between your movement and someone else's? These are sincere questions, which you inspired when you made the statement that you could evaluate Chris Parkerson's movement (as shown in his video), and compare it with your own movement. If I were to say to you that I have looked at some of your building designs, and they don't compare well with mine, it would be quite appropriate for you to ask to see my designs.

Jim
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Old 02-21-2008, 03:49 PM   #74
Blake Holtzen
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Before this gets out of hand, Mark, let me point out that I only reacted to Dan's making veiled references to people who talk to him about comparisons. Dan's been the only one that brings up that topic in the last year or so and my comment was that he's basically ensuring that no one who trains with him is going to get much at a few other peoples' workshops. That's one topic.

The topic about who to train with, please leave me out of it. Dan is the one who meets people to make friends and all that. I'm basically trying to keep the playing field level and working on my own project of finding the simplest, most effective way to train these sorts of skills. And that is only tangentially related to Aikido, since most Asian martial arts have these skills in one form or another. My "project" is all that really motivates me; not side issues. When I meet the occasional rare individual who is narrowly focused on just the clinical mechanics of the martial arts and these skills, I'm happy to meet him and get into discussions. But until I feel like someone is really interested in these sorts of things, I don't have a compulsion to "meet and share" for more social reasons. I.e., I've been in martial arts too long to think that the majority of martial artists are there for non-social reasons.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
Ah, this is getting ridiculous!
Look at my checklist:

1) Talk to Sigman - No longer wants to teach people - crap (Thanks Mike )

2) Talk to Harden - Doesn't return emails or pm's - crap (Thanks Dan )

3) Talk to John - Lives in Tokyo, I wont be going there anytime soon - crap (Thanks Rob )

Ah, What is the world coming to! Is no-one willing to share with a young, eager, hard-working student?

*sigh* Iowa sucks.

-Blake
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Old 02-21-2008, 03:57 PM   #75
Mike Sigman
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Re: Freeform Bokken Drills to Develop Aiki Flow

Quote:
Blake Holtzen wrote: View Post
Ah, What is the world coming to! Is no-one willing to share with a young, eager, hard-working student?
Well.... I'll bet Chris Parkerson will teach you! Now you're set!

Best.

Mike Sigman
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