Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-02-2007, 06:44 PM   #26
stan baker
Location: east granby, ct
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 174
Wake Island
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

It is easy to look powerful against someone weaker and smaller. Real aiki power contains both hard and soft.Explosive power in aiki does not mean hard it is just overwhelming.

stan
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 07:27 PM   #27
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Jon Irvine wrote: View Post
Hello
... I live in Sheridan Oregon and I'm willing to travel as far as Portland Oregon to learn Hard Aikido. Can anybody in this forum lead me in the right direction?
Jon Irvine
jirvine7774@yahoo.com
...if Yoshinkan Aikido is what you mean by 'hard' aikido, here's a dojo in Oregon, but I have no idea if this is close to you or not:

Takudokan Dojo
Stephen Hamilton
PO Box 4909 Sunriver, Oregon 97707
Phone: (541)598-8654
takudokan@yahoo.com

Regards,

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 08:49 PM   #28
Steven
 
Steven's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Yoshinkan Sacramento - Seikeikan Dojo
Location: Orangevale, CA
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 630
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Brian Vickery wrote: View Post
...if Yoshinkan Aikido is what you mean by 'hard' aikido, here's a dojo in Oregon, but I have no idea if this is close to you or not:

Takudokan Dojo
Stephen Hamilton
PO Box 4909 Sunriver, Oregon 97707
Phone: (541)598-8654
takudokan@yahoo.com

Regards,
This school is inactive and has been for sometime. Besides, I don't think the original poster has any clue as to what he means. He hasn't posted since his first post.

Besides, Yoshinkan is not hard. That's a myth. :-)

Last edited by Steven : 12-02-2007 at 08:52 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 03:01 AM   #29
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 688
Israel
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Jorge Garcia wrote: View Post
I have thought about what "hard Aikido" is very much since I started to teach. I have always liked a good robust form of Aikido with big throws and firm pins and lots of fast action. A few people have characterized what I do as realistic and some as hard. As I have looked at it more carefully, I have come up with two different categories based on some of the people I have trained under and the contrast I see with what I am trying to do and what my own intentions are.

My two distinctions are dangerous Aikido and safe Aikido. I think what should be characterized as "hard" is what most refer to as what I would call dangerous. If you are going in with a tsuke and tori or nage returns with an iriminage, there are two alternatives, one is a Steven Seagal type of spearing motion or just letting them go by or possibly going up and lifting them.
The spearing motion is dangerous and could break your neck or seriously injure you, even if you know how to jump up and relax your body and receive the technique. This kind of a technique is from an older style of Aikido and the older style may have some origins in really trying to hurt the attacker.
Letting the strike go by and pulling them down from behind could be said to be soft but effective. Entering with the hip and using an upward arm motion will catch them and lift them up. At that point, they will fall to the ground at the speed of gravity and they can either take the ukemi or not but at the worst, they will most likely just have the wind knocked out of them.

In what I do, no matter how fast or robust I do it, is always just trying to lift up uke and then move out of the spot where he is falling and let him fall at the speed of gravity adding no extra down motion. Some people add a lot of extra down motion to their techniques and the more you add, the greater amount of chance of an injury. That one intentionality adds something to the technique that puts it into another category. I do a lot of things to protect uke and I try not to cause uke pain but rather to control uke by putting him in zero gravity for one second and then lifting him and letting him fall at the speed of gravity. In my mind, this is that safest way to do techniques and still be effective.

Soft looking motions and even simple unbalancing motions added with a bad intention can still be dangerous and in my mind considered as "hard".
Another way I learned to look at this was that. It doesn't matter how it looks, it matters what you are trying to do. I once took some classes with an instructor that basically did everything I have ever told my students not to do because of safety but he did them all on purpose. Every technique then had a large percentage of danger because he was executing them in a dangerous way. For example, In a kokyunage throw, I teach the you should shoot your energy out because it is powerful, effective and relatively safe and yet uke falls at the speed of gravity. Some people drop their weight, lean forward hard and then push down with the arms and hands as hard as they can driving uke into the mat and sending the head in a downward motion dangerously close to the mat. I call that hard because it introduces an element that increases the chance of serious injury. It's very dangerous.
I understand that an accident can happen at any time in any style and that there are variables but for thier sake of definition and some clarity, this is how I think about it.

Once, someone said I had a very hard style because of some of the throws I do. Then, one of my black belts answered and said, "One thing about him is that he never throws anyone anyway unless he is convinced that they can receive the throw the way he is doing it." That is a factor as well. Some teachers either don't have the understanding or don't care and they will throw you not really knowing your capacity to receive a technique. That is dangerous in my mind and that's hard Aikido because it is dangerous to the recipients of it.

That is my simple take on the subject with the understanding that there are obvious exceptions to any principle here and there.
best wishes,
Jorge
Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock
Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
The above has also been my observation as well. I agree totally - well said Rock.

Imho safety in the dojo has much less to do with whether one does forceful waza and more to do with the skill level of Uke's Ukemi and Tori's understanding and appreciation of that skill level.

Regarding "hard" vs "soft" Aikido I got the impression that the OP used it in a context common to Chinese MA where the "hard" arts tend to be more focused on building combative ability first, then the internal and the "soft" style focused more on internal skills first, then combat ability later. Of course this is from my own limited knowledge of CMA, corrections are welcome.
As someone who studies a rather "practical" style with very S.D. \ applicable oriented teacher (we practice on perfecting the elements Jorge pointed and a few others). I wish to agree with you. Most people confuse "hard" with effective, the opposite is true.
The way I am taught is to be very soft, so my technique will be more effective \ dangerous \ ... But, when I say soft, I do not mean weak, rather I talk of a tiger moving smoothly with full sensitivity and reaction to any minor pressure.

Once you become hard, you only use few limited muscles for each motion, and typically, the smaller ones (mostly arms and upper body) while a soft body utilizes more muscles, and typically the larger ones (mostly legs back).
I vividly recall one instance, almost a decade ago: Both me and a friend had to prepare a stretcher in an army course for a journey, this involved getting a piece of tier stretched over the stretcher to hold it in place on the dedicated back-pack. At first, the friend who was much stronger (we did PT together, so it was easy to know) tried for 5 times and failed. I knew I did not have a chance, since he was much stronger, but still I asked to try, and I did it with ease from the first time. Simply because I utilized all my body weight and the larger muscles.

Soft techniques do not contradict a one touch = one throw approach.

One should be soft and sensitive before the touch to direct it. One should be soft and harmonious during the touch to fully utilize his body, to enable fine directional tuning for improved impact, and to let Tori know if anything goes wrong -- letting Nage change the technique in the same flow.

The same softness and sensitivity is also our major safety valve. We rarely have accidents, because we strive to use the minimal force and energy required for each move. The same ability of shifting techniques can be used to stop everything if the practice becomes too dangerous.
Thus people progress in both accuracy of performance (making their techniques more dangerous for the joints) just as they learn to sublimate and control the effect.
This approach gives more then sufficient margin of error for most of the student progress. The 1st Kyu students are a main danger source in this regard - since the level of advancement of the former element is faster than the latter. Thus these students must get additional attention to make sure they will not try to force anything.

The paradox about all of this is that this type of M.A. is very hard, TO LEARN and teach. It goes against the instinct of most people, who seem to think muscling things will get better effects, one of the harder teaching phases it get people to realize it is wrong.

Amir
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 08:36 AM   #30
Brian Vickery
Dojo: Aiki-Buken Aikido
Location: Gilbert, Arizona
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 208
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Steven Miranda wrote: View Post
This school is inactive and has been for sometime ...Besides, Yoshinkan is not hard. That's a myth. :-)
...See what I mean!!! ...this dojo was SO HARD that it's no longer exists!!! ...all the students killed each other while training!!!

Brian Vickery

"The highest level of technique to achieve is that of having NO technique!"
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 06:13 AM   #31
KamiKaze_Evolution
Location: Kuala Lumpur
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 125
Malaysia
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

I don't think that Yoshinkan Aikido is hard Aikido, it could be both gentle and hard. Or some when you have to browse over youtube, i have to watch how does Inoue Kyoichi Hanshi gentle is he. It's a fact too because Takeno Takafumi Sensei is tough enough, but however Yoshinkan Aikido isn't hard only Aikido.

KamiKaze
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 04:36 PM   #32
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related
This guy is not bad at all (I have no idea who he is), but he also illustrates what I mean by levels. His hands indicate that he is obviously Yoshinkan, but his power is part ki and part strength, not crisp ki/kokyu like Shioda used. At least that's my opinion. Don't get me wrong, he's pretty good.... I'm just using him to point out that a lot of people "get it", but the level they get it can be an entirely different discussion.

FWIW

Mike "don't flame me for a simple observation" Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 04:58 PM   #33
John Connolly
Dojo: NYC Icho Ryu
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 80
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Isoyama is an Aikikai Aikidoka, via Iwama.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2008, 05:07 PM   #34
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
John Connolly wrote: View Post
Isoyama is an Aikikai Aikidoka, via Iwama.
Really? I don't know much about Iwama style, although back in the day I had one of the original sets of Saito's set of books (which I foolishly gave away!). My immediate question is... do the Iwama people also use that hyper-extension of the hand to symbolize/"develop" their ki? I've only seen some Yoshinkan people do it and I wasn't aware that some Iwama types did, too. Incidentally, I would expect anyone who overdid the hand thing to also be on the "muscle" side of any possible ki development they had.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 12:04 AM   #35
Stephen Webb
Dojo: Long Island Aikikai
Location: Long Island
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

In my admittedly limited exposure to aikido, I tend to divide hard and soft style in the way other people have done it here: there is a minimum amount of "force" necessary to execute a technique. The soft people feel that minimum and go juuuust above it so that the technique is effective. The hard people go as far as they can to execute the technique, also effective.

After having a discussion with one of my instructors about this, he talked a lot about how aikido isn't about hard or soft, it's about having a dial and being able to tune it as necessary. Using a sankyo grip to make your three year old stop hitting you (I've seen it done and it worked) is very different from using a sankyo grip to subdue a drunk guy in a bar. In order for aikido to be universally effective, you have to be able to turn the nob quickly during a confrontation, but without overshooting or undershooting the right level.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 01:35 AM   #36
grondahl
Dojo: Stockholms Aikidoklubb
Location: Stockholm
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 601
Sweden
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Yes, "putting energy" or "kokyo" in to the grabbed part of the body is atleast a part of all basic techniques (but the explanations on how to actually do that is not that clear). However, to many people becomes stiff as h*ll as a result. The heavy focus on static (gotai or katai training) with heavy resistance can also be a trap since some people tend to get stuck with responding to the resistance with more resistance instead of relaxing.
Ki exercises is not a regular part of the curriculum but we do lots and lots of suburi that are supposed to be relaxed and coordinated with the breath.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
My immediate question is... do the Iwama people also use that hyper-extension of the hand to symbolize/"develop" their ki? I've only seen some Yoshinkan people do it and I wasn't aware that some Iwama types did, too. Incidentally, I would expect anyone who overdid the hand thing to also be on the "muscle" side of any possible ki development they had.

Last edited by grondahl : 02-04-2008 at 01:43 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 05:25 AM   #37
Joe Bowen
 
Joe Bowen's Avatar
Dojo: Yongsan Aikikai
Location: But now I'm in the UK
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 212
South Korea
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Mike,

Isoyama Sensei is the Shihan Dai and current dojocho for the Iwama dojo. I have not trained with him personally but know a few who have, and if I recall correctly he was born and raised in Iwama, was a Soto Deshi in the dojo while O'Sensei was still teaching there and studied intensively with both O'Sensei and Saito Sensei. He later joined the Japanese Air Force equivalent and serve a 20 some odd year career with the Japanese Self Defense force while teaching and running dojos wherever he was stationed. He taught many American Air Force personnel aikido. He retired back into the Iwama area, I think before Saito Sensei passed, and after Saito Sensei's passing, the Doshu put him in charge of the Iwama dojo since he was the most senior guy in the area (8th Dan) in what for many Iwama folks was a pretty controversial decision.
Personally, I always thought it made pretty good sense. Isoyama seems to have a pretty good grip of Aikido.
There is probably more of the history on the aikiwiki....

Regards, joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 05:50 AM   #38
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,239
Spain
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Mike "don't flame me for a simple observation" Sigman
So you can't tell an iwamaer from a yoshinkaner?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 06:09 AM   #39
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
So you can't tell an iwamaer from a yoshinkaner?
I realize that it marks me as someone who is not all that fashion-conscious, but no. I never paid a lot of attention to the different "styles". In my rather feeble fashion-sense, I'm sort of aware that few current Yoshinkan people move at all like Shioda's rather distinct movements, so I have this vague category of some people (some good; some bad) who came after Shioda Sensei; I never met many Yoshinkan people, so I had no motivation. I also have a vague concept of Saito as being having an admirable style and a controversial mantle that some people say is old Ueshiba-style and some people not, but since I never met but one or two Iwama-style people, I didn't devote a lot of thought in that direction. Sorry.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 06:11 AM   #40
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Joseph Bowen wrote: View Post
Mike,

Isoyama Sensei is the Shihan Dai and current dojocho for the Iwama dojo. I have not trained with him personally but know a few who have, and if I recall correctly he was born and raised in Iwama, was a Soto Deshi in the dojo while O'Sensei was still teaching there and studied intensively with both O'Sensei and Saito Sensei. He later joined the Japanese Air Force equivalent and serve a 20 some odd year career with the Japanese Self Defense force while teaching and running dojos wherever he was stationed. He taught many American Air Force personnel aikido. He retired back into the Iwama area, I think before Saito Sensei passed, and after Saito Sensei's passing, the Doshu put him in charge of the Iwama dojo since he was the most senior guy in the area (8th Dan) in what for many Iwama folks was a pretty controversial decision.
Personally, I always thought it made pretty good sense. Isoyama seems to have a pretty good grip of Aikido.
There is probably more of the history on the aikiwiki....

Regards, joe
Thanks, Joseph. Thanks for the information. He looks like a strong guy.

All the Best.

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 06:19 AM   #41
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,239
Spain
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I realize that it marks me as someone who is not all that fashion-conscious, but no. I never paid a lot of attention to the different "styles".
This is not a fashion or style vs. style thing and much less a political issue, but I noticed your interest in body skills, so i figured you had studied in detail the different approaches.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2008, 07:03 AM   #42
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This is not a fashion or style vs. style thing and much less a political issue, but I noticed your interest in body skills, so i figured you had studied in detail the different approaches.
Hi Demetrio:
Well, from experience I can roughly spot most peoples' abilities (at certain levels), but I can do that across a spectrum of martial arts because the ki/kokyu skills are one thing and the particular martial skills are another. So I can watch someone move and give a general estimate of what their skill level is in ki/kokyu things while not knowing anything at all about their style or the particular approaches in a dojo/school.

Actually, what I'm saying supports, to a large extent, what Tohei does in the Ki-Society. He grades people on their Aikido and he separately grades them on their ki/kokyu skills.

Best.

Mike
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2008, 01:58 PM   #43
Walter Martindale
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 748
Canada
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Hiroaki Izumi wrote: View Post
I might be disagreeing here. I find that the more gently any technique is done, the more dangerous it becomes for Uke if the technique is done for effectiveness. It is much safer to throw someone with force and direction because the vectors in the fall do not change as much as with one done gently. For a throw to be done gently or a pin to be done gently, but effectively, it must be done with full implementation of Kokyu and Ki No Nagare. The smoothness that entails means a lot of rotational movement, in other words, acceleration instead of speed. Force, being equal to Mass times Acceleration means that the force with which an individual is being thrown or pinned with that rotational movement is being moved with much greater force than a direct linear throw or pin (especially since the use of Kokyu indicates a use of full mass). Physics would suggest that gentleness, if used correctly throws or pins a person with much greater force than a strong linear throw or pin. Thus, effective gentleness is much more forceful than linear use of muscle power and could, thereby, be much more dangerous for Uke. I have hurt more people by accident doing gentle things than forceful throws or pins or takedowns. That is why I tend not to do real gentle any more, it is too dangerous for any Uke who is not yet a Yudansha.

Rock
I can vouch for Rocky's "gentle" throws hurting the most. Kawahara's too. Attack, attack hard - what? Where'd he go? Oh oh... Where'm I going? OUCH!!! How in )*^*&% did he do that?
"yep, I'm fine, just need a moment to get my breath"...
At the time I was still "mudansha" but had 8 years of judo background so the ukemi wasn't ALL new.. Don't recall much of the judo ukemi hurting that much, either, but I was a lot younger during judo.

Walter
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 02:59 PM   #44
eric_lecaptain
 
eric_lecaptain's Avatar
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 34
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Salim Shaw wrote: View Post
Perhaps he means something similar to this video clip.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bAhBPa6-CJ4&feature=related
OMG!! that guy is brutal. i dont think i could walk after a throw like that.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 03:37 PM   #45
Walter Martindale
Location: Cambridge, ON
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 748
Canada
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Eric LeCaptain wrote: View Post
OMG!! that guy is brutal. i dont think i could walk after a throw like that.
You mean the Kata Guruma (I think that's what it's called) from Judo? Part of the first set (I think) grading in nage-no-kata. Isoyama doesn't go between the legs but it's just as nasty.

'zakly how nasty it is depends on whether nage (tori) makes it like a "guruma" movement and ukemi is more like taking a very large roll off something high, or if it's a straight down dump as done in the video. Either way, you need to be "firm" and keep oriented during ukemi or you land on shoulders, hips, heads (mostly your own). Whatever the case - I'm WAY too old now to do very much of that stuff.
W
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 10:06 AM   #46
gregg block
 
gregg block's Avatar
Location: bethlehem PA
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Ive heard of a guy named mike that teaches this style. It's called Mike's Hard Aikido....No.. wait a minute... im confusing him with the lemonade guy..sorry!
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 11:52 AM   #47
eric_lecaptain
 
eric_lecaptain's Avatar
Location: Wisconsin
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 34
United_States
Offline
Re: Hard Aikido

Quote:
Gregg Block wrote: View Post
Ive heard of a guy named mike that teaches this style. It's called Mike's Hard Aikido....No.. wait a minute... im confusing him with the lemonade guy..sorry!
ha ha.
you said "hard".
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is an independent dojo? David Yap General 64 11-14-2011 03:05 PM
Aikido in Amsterdam, Terry Lax style... tiyler_durden General 11 11-03-2008 09:31 AM
Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center? ChrisMoses Training 130 03-17-2007 04:21 PM
Aikido: Its Spirit and Technique TAnderson General 0 02-27-2007 08:50 AM
Article: Aikido Now in Brunei AikiWeb System AikiWeb System 3 09-20-2005 07:22 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2017 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2017 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate