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Old 02-01-2008, 02:57 PM   #126
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Wow. Just wow. ... If someone can be doing the pushout with me, feeling me, watching me and they can't tell what I'm doing, how on earth do you expect me to believe you can understand how it works by seeing a video. Wow.
Wow, back. I can put you in a plane in IFR (clouds) place that plane in a constant angle bank for a while and then go through two slight movements of the controls and you will swear to God your are leaning or falling forward, left or right depending on the attitude in which I place the aircraft. I can see from the visual representations of attitude the objectively real condition, but you cannot from your felt perceptions. Kinesthetic senses are easily fooled as are certain visual perspectives -- and there are things that can be seen objectively from other perspectives that in felt perception of movement are as objectively false conditions as up=down. This has been known since man took to air, if not before, but pilots continue to die every year from failure to understand the basic truth that their absolutely true sense can also be a lie.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
But, as promised, my experience of Chinkon Kishin by Chris Moses age 34. ... We did the whole series, exactly as written in the linked article. ... It wasn't pure visual mimicry, there was some exposition, but not much. ...
... If one was using the 'one point' paradigm, you could easily practice it as a way of using the limbs to amplify the movements of the hara (kokyu undo, stirring the pot...). How it affected my training or understanding of techniques? None. Zero. ... Now I would probably treat it as an exercise to see how much structure and connection I could maintain while moving in an externally supple fashion, and I would focus a LOT less on amplifying the movement of the hara through the limbs.
I'll just ask the question: What effect do you think it may have had if, perhaps as you say by lack of exposition, the process of the training was functionally reversed in what you understood vice its intended function?

There is a significant distinction between our experiences. Our exposition of the practice was consistently given as using the hara to drive the limbs -- the limb motions are an effect, not a cause or contribution; even though the form of the limb motion is prescribed, the motion of the center properly generates that form.

Back to my concrete experience, if I had, by analogy, tried to fly a plane with wings mounted in reverse, I would understandably and justifiably take a dim view of the whole idea of purported "flying" machines. It may not be the whole story, however.

Seated kokyu tanden ho is merely a glacial flow of the same eddies of center-driven motion that flows in funekogi/funetori undo and others. The super-critical shape of the standing wave oscillation being shifted around between partners can be better perceived and adjusted in that practice, so as to find its swell (kuzushi), its breakpoint/drop-in (tsukuri) ,and then the ride (kake). The oscillations are part of the human pendular balance system with its constantly cycling momentum keeping you upright.

Ten no kokyu is the action of an inverted pendulum, with the balance system of the body forming the restorative orientation toward the heavens, or viewed as breath expanding above. Chi no kokyu is the action of a suspended pendulum with the earth forming the restorative orientation, or viewed as breath expanding below. Shin no kokyu is the action of both together and/or the action of the middle pendulum independently of the upper or lower ones, with the CENTER as the restorative orientation, or breath expanding the center.

Did I mention that planes are lifted off the ground in thin air by use of eddy vortex energy?

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
.. In this text, ... there is a consistent assertion that the goal of aikido training in general, and CK training in specific, is to allow the body/practitioner to unify with the ki-flow of the universe. It feels as if one is taking the self out of the equation, to allow a divine/spiritual power entry. This concept is echoed in OSensei's comments about masagatsu agatsu katsu hayabi (winning over everything in accordance with the mission of heaven). ... This *seems* to me a slightly different take on ki/chi and its usefulness to the martial artist from what I have read in Chinese arts, where there *seems* to be the idea that one is developing the skill to manipulate, store, or otherwise interact with (at least partially) ones own ki/qi with *intention*.
As Francis Bacon said, "Nature, to be commanded, must first be obeyed." In surfing terms, I do not control the wave, I only control my relationship to the wave. Obey the laws of the universe and the universe will not charge you for violations.

I look to the mechanics for a western interpretation of ki in specific or of the universe. I see Ki in western terms as moments and angular momentum. Moment is potential for rotation, and angular momentum is the angular velocity of mass with respect to a fixed relative point of observation. If you do not impede the angular movement, no moments ever develop. Angular velocity can be reversed in sign without any moment arising, any angular velocity significantly diminishing or any structural strain being produced. Waves of energy are constantly reversing in sign without appreciable loss.

Moments only develop if the the angular velocity is diminished, typically by strains in the structure -- an unresolved potential rotation -- too much strain and it fails. Wave-wise, as the wave eddy depth is constrained, the peak rises commensurately and then eventually breaks.

Thus works kuzushi, creating moment in the opponent's structure compelling rotation, when any slight amount of complementary momentum is then transferred That overlaps in many respects with osae waza as the inverse function -- critically oriented angular momentum creates a moment strain at critical junctures in the opponent's structure, making operative rotation impossible anywhere but the plane compelled by the moment typically blocked by some other structure, the ground or the person applying the pin, or structural failure occurs.

O Sensei surfed people trying to hit him. So did Shioda, so did Tohei, so did Saito, so does Saotome, and many others. That was and is takemusu aiki. O Sensei just followed the shape of the breaking wave in individuals or groups, equally. There was at the point of reaching that perception no need to think, plan or control anything but to learn to see the shape and know where to be on the wave, and there remains even at that level, a broad spectrum of surfing abilities and styles. But if it ain't surfing -- it ain't aiki.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:43 PM   #127
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I disagree. There have been a number of descriptive analyses involving non-moving demonstrations of the basic force skill. "Not moving" is, of course, a relative idea (as has been caveated a number of times before). The basic kokyu/ki skill in relation to simple forces (which most of these discussions have stayed at.... the simple level of discussion) can be seen in this picuture:
http://www.neijia.com/OneLegPushOriginal.jpg
Now we're getting somewhere. It has been the lack of the relative idea and caveats from Dan's perspective that have troubled me, far less so in your usage, after much discussion. That image is almost exactly how I get my occasionally sloppy uke to close his line in commencing katate menuchi -- by offering and holding in wait a prospective kick for him as his blinking, red-light "Honk honk," "I'm going to hit you" signal. Seems not so different, actually. I'll have to try it in static isolation. As I have said, my perception is that we come at it from the other direction. Closer to static, I've done and occasionally demonstrate a variation where you engage katatedori while high up on the balls of both feet, let him try to get his push going -- and then drop him into kuzushi. To me it exemplifies the use of ten no kokyu. It seems like the more on tippy-toe you go all the more enticing it is for uke to try that much harder with the push -- and really sucker himself.

Would that be the kind of thing you mean in "not moving?"

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-01-2008 at 03:46 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:59 PM   #128
ChrisMoses
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Wow, back. I can put you in a plane in IFR (clouds) place that plane in a constant angle bank for a while and then go through two slight movements of the controls and you will swear to God your are leaning or falling forward, left or right depending on the attitude in which I place the aircraft.
Please stop boring me with aircraft crap. I do not think it applies.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
O Sensei surfed people trying to hit him. So did Shioda, so did Tohei, so did Saito, so does Saotome, and many others. That was and is takemusu aiki. O Sensei just followed the shape of the breaking wave in individuals or groups, equally. There was at the point of reaching that perception no need to think, plan or control anything but to learn to see the shape and know where to be on the wave, and there remains even at that level, a broad spectrum of surfing abilities and styles. But if it ain't surfing -- it ain't aiki.
OK, here's one fundamental difference with what I'm doing. I am the freakin wave, and I'm going to dash uke on the rocks. Remember, an attacker becomes a partner you control only, hard to control the wave, like you said, try and you'll fail. I surf snow, but it's the same concept. You fight the mountain and the mountain will win, every time.

All I can probably contribute here. Thanks folks, tip the bartender.

Chris Moses
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:10 PM   #129
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Now we're getting somewhere. It has been the lack of the relative idea and caveats from Dan's perspective that have troubled me, far less so in your usage, after much discussion. That image is almost exactly how I get my occasionally sloppy uke to close his line in commencing katate menuchi -- by offering and holding in wait a prospective kick for him as his blinking, red-light "Honk honk," "I'm going to hit you" signal. Seems not so different, actually. I'll have to try it in static isolation. As I have said, my perception is that we come at it from the other direction. Closer to static, I've done and occasionally demonstrate a variation where you engage katatedori while high up on the balls of both feet, let him try to get his push going -- and then drop him into kuzushi. To me it exemplifies the use of ten no kokyu. It seems like the more on tippy-toe you go all the more enticing it is for uke to try that much harder with the push -- and really sucker himself.

Would that be the kind of thing you mean in "not moving?"
It's a simple statics analysis, Erick. It's all right in front of you. "Not moving", in the case of this simple example, means that an equilibrium of forces has been achieved. A simple vector analysis should expose the basic "secret" to the most casual observer. Being able to move with this skill manifest, and manifest in all directions simultaneously, is it. Of course, this example is like plucking and releasing a string in order to make a tone.... it is not the full virtuoso classical-guitar playing, by any means.

However, this is the obvious fruit that has been dangling for a few years right in front of you, while you seemed intent on abstruse solutions. Just do the static-analysis and look at the solution vector that nage needs to generate in order to achieve "not moving". That's the key (pun intended).

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-01-2008, 06:59 PM   #130
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick
Tohei's example was a demonstration of absorbing forces while on one leg. Since you keyed in on the hand and doing a technique for kuzushi, lets move to this.
Look ma no hands!
No motion, no movement to be seen, no waza, the guy tries to push you over
Next, The guy pushes on your head.

Can you do it?
How do you remain standing?

Dan
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:42 PM   #131
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
It's a simple statics analysis, Erick. It's all right in front of you. "Not moving", in the case of this simple example, means that an equilibrium of forces has been achieved. A simple vector analysis should expose the basic "secret" to the most casual observer. ... Just do the static-analysis and look at the solution vector that nage needs to generate in order to achieve "not moving". That's the key (pun intended).
It is NOT simply statics. It is more akin to a bike and more complex even than that. There are recurrent, quasiperiodic gyrations of hips and torso involved in normal balance -- which word I know you decry, but thems the facts. It is a dynamic equilibrium, not a static one, therefore both delicate and powerful.

That means that a 'push' can be made eccentric, i.e. -- "not passing through the center" imparting a torque, vice a compressive stress at the support. A torque means that the other side of the body can be made an effective counterweight to that by altering the effective CG (irimi on the off-side) for a counterpoise moment, but it is not a "sprung" resistance against the ground in compressive terms. Nor does it result in a large increase in torque at the ground, because the irimi movement on the offside (being the same direction of rotation as the applied lateral torque of the push -- resolves a large component of the moment of the push.

Neither bipedal (or unipodal) balance can be made static, and because balance is a quasi-periodic function, there is constant interplay between the push moment, gravity moments and the pendular counters of the hips, torso and head. It never stops. But if you have the kokyu right they can with increasing sensitivity approach a standing wave with only minor deviations. That is a matter of developed feel, but it is just the natural balance mechanism applied to other uses.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:58 PM   #132
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It is NOT simply statics. [[snip chaff]]
Heh. Whatever, Erick. The problem is that it doesn't take such a high-tech knife just to cut butter. The basic analysis of the exceedingly simple posture I showed conforms very simply and adequately to statics. If you want to worry about the leg strength in different people, different peoples' balance abilities, the strength of the prevailing winds, the rotation of the earth and factor in the moon's gravity, you are needlessly confounding yourself.

As I've said before, there are too many people reading this stuff and who can do this stuff at this ridiculously elementary level.... your position/argument doesn't say anything at all about these skills. It says something about what you personally know about ki and kokyu, topics which you claim to teach. Nothing more.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:07 PM   #133
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Can you do it?
How do you remain standing?
I try relate what I do and know, or to compare that with what you describe that you do. I try not to guess at what you do, other than from expanding on the implications of what you o anyone else does say.

I could relate to what Mike showed and try to map out our differences of understanding, because I do that or some things very similar. The static push you illustrate is not among things we train in the kokyu undo training I was given, therefore I will not guess much at what you do nor hypothesize at any length about what I might do. I try to stick to my experience or mechanics that have some objective basis.

But taking the matter in principle, why would it differ at all? Taking the push to the body eccentrically with complementary irimi accomplishes the same thing as when the push is more remote, and the key difference is that the CG window for the counterpoise is far narrower. That is exactly what I see in O Sensei's seated "head push" videos. He keeps the pusher from ever achieving a clear line through his center. He is counterpoising his CG moment forward by the complementary motion of his torso with the head motions he is using . which sets up the same kind of canceling moments as when standing, with his window for stability even narrower still.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:37 PM   #134
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Quotes
1.I try relate what I do and know, or to compare that with what you describe that you do. I try not to guess at what you do.....
2.... I try to stick to my experience or mechanics that have some objective basis.

3 snip mechanic dissertation...That is exactly what I see in O Sensei's seated "head push" videos. He keeps the pusher from ever achieving a clear line through his center. He is counterpoising his CG moment forward by the complementary motion of his torso with the head motions he is using . which sets up the same kind of canceling moments as when standing, with his window for stability even narrower still.

4. I do not criticize either Dan or Mike for doing their own work in their own ways, in fact I rather admire their tenacity of opinion and engagement. I just come with a different body of knowledge that I know to work and apply to the problems.
Erick
If you review, you have stated you not only know what I do and Ark does but have stated -we- don't even understand what we do. Right here, now... you claim to only discuss what you know- then claim to know what Uehsiba did and describe how its accomplished. So of course you can do it right-you only discuss what you know.

I think this may be great. To find someone else who claims to do these things.and that with such an unusual and complex methods.
You know Erick right now quite a few guys are training and researching this stuff. They are flying to meet and train with Mike, me, Ark, Then are going to train with Kiyama, Goldberg, Okomoto, Popkin, Ikeda, Saotome. etc. They are making some rather surprising judgements and talking amongst themselves. The men and women I have met are motivated researchers without prejudice.
I have a few people who have literally been round the world with master level teachers. They have convinced themselves that
a. men with these skills are not common.
b. Men who are willing to share what they know in an understandable and replicable fashion are rarer still.
May we add you to the list of men with unusual power and sensitivity who can display it? May they come and test you as well since you so fervently advocate as you just did with Mike, that you not only can do but you can explain to everyone how its all done. You must have a significant reputation in your locale already. Surely some will want to meet you, test you in what ever venue you choose and learn of these complex models that will lead to growth for everyone.
Should they come?
Will you demonstrate and teach and help some folks out?

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-01-2008 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:39 PM   #135
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Please stop boring me with aircraft crap. I do not think it applies.
Have you flown? It is in my bank of experience of physical stability problems and applied power. Boring or not, it does apply. Read Sagawa again about the limits of the "applicable" in budo. Read him also about moving from art to art and understanding to understanding, rather than building on what you know, that you know to work, instead of what others promise works that you do not know. His point -- they know nothing better than you can know it -- if you do your own steady and self-honest work.

I do not criticize either Dan or Mike for doing their own work in their own ways, in fact I rather admire their tenacity of opinion and engagement. I just come with a different body of knowledge that I know to work and apply to the problems. I don't feel the need to defend what I know to work, and I don't try to adopt or adapt to anyone else's way of working unless and until it is shown to me that what I do does not work, and their way is manifestly better. Needless to say they nor you can do that here very easily, nor have much tried in what can be done here toward that end.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
OK, here's one fundamental difference with what I'm doing. I am the freakin wave, and I'm going to dash uke on the rocks.
What was it I said about personality types drawn to the form of training you seem to prefer? "Marked impatience in their training goals."? Ambition is admirable, but can you honestly think you learned everything that the chinkon kishin kokyu undo had to teach, given that the way you came to understand it, and then abandoned it in frustration, seems from your description to be just about 180 degrees out from the way it was given to me?

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:48 PM   #136
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Heh. Whatever, Erick. ...the exceedingly simple posture I showed conforms very simply and adequately to statics.
Yes, whatever. If you truly think that bipedal balance is a statics problem, I cannot go very far with you down that road.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
your position/argument doesn't say anything at all about these skills. It says something about what you personally know about ki and kokyu, topics which you claim to teach. Nothing more.
My position/argument is how I understand what I DO -- I teach the things I was taught and whatever there is of ki or kokyu that I know is in those things -- and it is not my place to do anything else. I am not bound in any way in my attempts to relate and understand that knowledge of what I do in ways that are not limited to the terms of the art.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-01-2008, 08:52 PM   #137
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Erick ... you have stated ...
Dan.

Quote me -- or don't say what I said. Especially when there is no actual point beyond the naked ad hominem attack. Spending so much time belittling me suggests you have nothing with which to belittle the actual points I made.

And please throw away the rest of the gauntlets. I have plenty.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 02-01-2008 at 08:54 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:10 PM   #138
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick
You have chopped my posts to ribbons and joined disparate lines together just a few posts ago. Belittle you? Come on man. I'm not attacking you. I am pointedly addressing your answers and descriptions of the skills -of others. You are making some very definitive descriptions about what others are doing, and you have most certainly stated they are all explainable and you know how its done. Did you not? Where is that an attack on you?
I am asking you to show it. This a field of interest for many people who are traveling around the world for their knowledge. Since you are so very strong on stating how these things are done why not help out and ...show. I'd bet there are many guys down your way who would head over. Where is that attacking you in any way? Can you show me where I challenged your knowledge of mechanics and physics? No you can't. You're over my head. So, I repeatedly ask if you can ...do. I just don't see the offense.
Lighten up. Words either mean something or they don't. You have created hundreds of pages with exhaustive descriptions. Since you claim a knowledge these guys are sweating and striving for why not help? We have. Maybe they'd want to compare training tips with someone of your knowledge. Hell, maybe I can make it and we can compare notes and training methods. Is that somehow unreasonable in light of the hundreds of posts you have made on the subject? Are there local guys down there who know you posess these skills?
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-01-2008 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 02-01-2008, 09:44 PM   #139
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Presenting a diagram of a guy pushing another guy horizonally on the chest, and asking whether "someone" could

1. take such a push without being moved

and

2. explain how it was done

was a pretty straight-forward request, and, in fact, one for which a "yes" or "no" answer would have sufficed.
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Old 02-01-2008, 10:50 PM   #140
ChrisMoses
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Have you flown? It is in my bank of experience of physical stability problems and applied power. Boring or not, it does apply.
I'm not a pilot, but I have been on a plane. I also have a BS in Physics with a minor in Applied Mathematics and completed all requirements to enter any Physical Therapy program in the country, including almost 400 hours of volunteer time in clinics. I think in mechanics. Your random feats of awesomeness with all things avionic seem completely out of sorts in what *I* am talking about. For example, your description about fooling ones balance through subtle manipulations has to do with physiological phenomena of the vestibular canals and our visual references. It has about as much to do with this discussion as how if you stand in a doorway and press your arms into the door for 30 seconds, then step forward, your arms will 'magically' rise of their own accord. That's completely different from two people standing on stationary ground. It's completely different. Let me put that another way. It's completely different.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Read Sagawa again about the limits of the "applicable" in budo. Read him also about moving from art to art and understanding to understanding, rather than building on what you know, that you know to work, instead of what others promise works that you do not know. His point -- they know nothing better than you can know it -- if you do your own steady and self-honest work.
Hmm, I kind of took Sagawa to be saying that most people were lazy and had no idea what they were actually doing, and that only through intense personal dedication and *impatience with their own training and development* would they amount to anything. That's paraphrasing, but that's how I read him. I certainly did not take him to be saying that everyone's opionion and quality of information/understanding was equal.

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
What was it I said about personality types drawn to the form of training you seem to prefer? "Marked impatience in their training goals."? Ambition is admirable, but can you honestly think you learned everything that the chinkon kishin kokyu undo had to teach, given that the way you came to understand it, and then abandoned it in frustration, seems from your description to be just about 180 degrees out from the way it was given to me?
I never said I learned everythin that the chinkon kishin had to teach. I specifically said that it probably had more that I could have gotten out of it, but that the *teaching methodology* did not work for me. I did not abandon it out of some melodramatic frustration, it just didn't do anything for me. Could you describe to me what sort of training I prefer? I don't think you have any idea how patient you have to be to train the way I do.

I'm confused, when you say my description is 180 degrees out of phase, what description are you talking about? If you're talking about my wave analogy (that you quoted) I would ask you to comment on how you reconcile your analogy of being a surfer riding a wave with OSensei's description with the archetype for non-confrontation in Aikido (where your attacker becomes a parter who you control only). Who here is out of line with the founder's vision for Aikido?

Chris Moses
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:01 PM   #141
Mike Sigman
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
Yes, whatever. If you truly think that bipedal balance is a statics problem, I cannot go very far with you down that road.
Strawman. I never said balance itself was a statics problem. Once balance is achieved, the dynamics in the illustration can be assumed as a given and the problem analysed as a simple equilibrium of forces. What's happening is that you simply can't picture these giveaway-simple examples because you don't know how it's done. The recondite explanations you use simply highlight that fact.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 02-01-2008, 11:19 PM   #142
DH
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Side bar of interest regarding Ueshiba:

Budo Renshu 1932 authored By Ueshiba M.
For those who don't know, All the waza were hand drawn -clearly Daito ryu waza- which he was actively still teaching and awarding mokuroku in at the time. It was privately published to select students. Later, it was used to raise money as well.
Under the secret teaching of Budo
A poem
The precious
Izu and Mizu in
The "Aiki ju"
Courageously advance
In the voice of Izu

From the translator
The aiki cross were two lines in an X- intersecting vertically at their center.
While the translater believes Ueshiba meant to express Izu and Mizu as in/yo he also makes note of the true definitions as springing forth or gushing water. I find the dual meaning interesting.
Also interesting were Ueshiba describing the yin and yang of opposing hands. However I can find no descriptions of him covering that the same side hand/foot are best treated as opposites as well. Which is of course demonstrable in the cross. FWIW, this is also a path for the way I do Shiko
Cheers
Dan
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Last edited by DH : 02-01-2008 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:13 AM   #143
TomW
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Erick Mead wrote: View Post
It is NOT simply statics. It is more akin to a bike and more complex even than that. There are recurrent, quasiperiodic gyrations of hips and torso involved in normal balance -- which word I know you decry, but thems the facts. It is a dynamic equilibrium, not a static one, therefore both delicate and powerful.

That means that a 'push' can be made eccentric, i.e. -- "not passing through the center" imparting a torque, vice a compressive stress at the support. A torque means that the other side of the body can be made an effective counterweight to that by altering the effective CG (irimi on the off-side) for a counterpoise moment, but it is not a "sprung" resistance against the ground in compressive terms. Nor does it result in a large increase in torque at the ground, because the irimi movement on the offside (being the same direction of rotation as the applied lateral torque of the push -- resolves a large component of the moment of the push.

Neither bipedal (or unipodal) balance can be made static, and because balance is a quasi-periodic function, there is constant interplay between the push moment, gravity moments and the pendular counters of the hips, torso and head. It never stops. But if you have the kokyu right they can with increasing sensitivity approach a standing wave with only minor deviations. That is a matter of developed feel, but it is just the natural balance mechanism applied to other uses.
Erick, it's a model, whether it's simple statics, quasi-periodic functions, or double pendulums, they're all just models, we use them every day in engineering. Heck, simple statics and closed systems don't even exist, but we use them. Why? because we can. We use assumptions to simplify the model and the mathematics. If those assumptions are valid, the model is appropriate, if the assumptions are not valid, things fall down. It's not a function of how complex the mathematics is, it's how valid your assumptions are. Case in point, the urban legend about bumble bee flight. Whether true or not, it's a fitting example. The math wasn't wrong, their assumptions weren't valid. Fortunately, they had the foresight to use the age old scientific tool, observation, and acknowledge that "One shouldn't be surprised that the results of the calculations don't square with reality"

The model that Mike and Dan have presented is grossly simple but under the valid assumptions, useful. I would posit, as assumptions, that 1. the nage is in equilibrium, static or dynamic, which ever you prefer, before and during the applied push and 2. the push is concentric, ie. no torsional compensation allowed.

Before you balk at acknowledging the possibility of this model yielding positive results and retreat to the mathematical high ground, I would again posit that this model, on a basic level (as I understand it), fits the paradigm as I know it (I can yield positive results). If the model doesn't fit your paradigm, it does not evidence an inherent flaw in the model or the math. If any thing, it merely implies our paradigms are different. That we aren't talking about the same thing.

I would address chinkon kishin, as my initial introduction was similar to Chris' and left quite a bit to speculation (and, no, I didn't abandon it in frustration either) but my current lineage is far more specific, but that will have to wait for another time.

Last edited by TomW : 02-02-2008 at 01:22 AM.

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Old 02-02-2008, 01:27 AM   #144
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Once balance is achieved, the dynamics in the illustration can be assumed as a given and the problem analysed as a simple equilibrium of forces. What's happening is that you simply can't picture these giveaway-simple examples because you don't know how it's done. The recondite explanations you use simply highlight that fact.
I know what I can do. While I am happy to share experiences where there is a genuine spirit, I could not care less to prove anything to you. What I am interested in are observations of function, to relate to my own experience, and therefore better understand that, not to learn to do what you do or don't do, or whether I do it or not or the way you do.

I am concerned about understanding the things that exercises such as Chinkon kishin are operating on to improve what I can do. Those exercises have worked consistently and steadily to do that in practice so I build on that. I am interested in anything that produce a closer understanding, regulation of ,and a more extensive and precise direction over the ACTUAL balance system of the human body, offensively and defensively.

Bipedal balance is not a "simple equlibrium of forces." It is in constant cycle of disequilibirum and recovery.
Quote:
J. Physiol. Apr. 2005 -- Human postural sway results from frequent, ballistic bias impulses wrote:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1456055
Abstract It has been widely assumed for nearly a century, that postural muscles operate in a spring-like manner and that muscle length signals joint angle (the mechano-reflex mechanism). Here we employ automated analysis of ultrasound images to resolve calf muscle (soleus and gastrocnemius) length changes as small as 10 μm in standing subjects. Previously, we have used balancing of a real inverted pendulum to make predictions about human standing. Here we test and confirm these predictions on 10 subjects standing quietly. We show that on average the calf muscles are actively adjusted 2.6 times per second and 2.8 times per unidirectional sway of the body centre of mass (CoM). These alternating, small (30--300 Ám) movements provide impulsive, ballistic regulation of CoM movement. The timing and pattern of these adjustments are consistent with multisensory integration of all information regarding motion of the CoM, pattern recognition, prediction and planning using internal models and are not consistent with control solely by local reflexes. Because the system is unstable, errors in stabilization provide a perturbation which grows into a sway which has to be reacted to and corrected. Sagittal sway results from this impulsive control of calf muscle activity rather than internal sources (e.g. the heart, breathing). This process is quite unlike the mechano-reflex paradigm. We suggest that standing is a skilled, trial and error activity that improves with experience and is automated (possibly by the cerebellum). These results complement and extend our recent demonstration that paradoxical muscle movements are the norm in human standing.
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... if the calf muscles are maintained at constant activation then a person standing with feet side by side will inevitably topple forwards. The implications of this low stiffness, spring-like linkage in series with the muscles and the body were predicted by an experiment in which an inverted pendulum was manually balanced using a range of stiffness of series springs. The muscle and the load were shown to be decoupled: they are not mechanically constrained to do the same thing at the same time....humans cannot maintain bipedal stability in the sagittal plane through unchanging muscular activity in the calf muscles. .. the calf muscles has a stiffness less than the load stiffness of the human inverted pendulum . Thus, without proactive control of the calf muscles , the person would inevitably fall forwards until they have to take a step. .. the adjustment produces an impulse, effectively a change in velocity, given to the CoM. ... there are on average 2.8 bias adjustments for each CoM sway, the velocity change is delivered in approximately one-third of a unidirectional CoM sway. The changes in muscle activation are delivered in a shorter time still (Fig. 6). As the impulsive effect is discharged by the nervous system in a short timescale relative to the effect on CoM position, and before feedback of the result can be received, this process is properly described as ballistic. For example, after a bias action, the nervous system will not know, and will have to wait to find out whether or not the direction of CoM motion will be reversed. Small differences in impulse will result in completely different motion sequences for the CoM. Instants when the CoM is finely balanced and moving at low speed are effectively bifurcation points where alternative small changes in ankle torque could result in opposite motions of the CoM (Loram & Lakie, 2002a). These bifurcation points create unpredictability in the motion of the CoM. The delay between the initiation of a destabilizing rise in velocity and the corrective reaction (Fig. 7) is evidence that these micro falls are not perfectly predicted. The summated effect of these ballistic bias, impulse actions is regulation of position and velocity.
This is a study of simple quiet-standing balance. It is found to be a chaotic, non linear process. There is NOTHING that a simplistic vector statics helps explain in that -- much less a larger perturbation such as a push.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2008, 01:44 AM   #145
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
Erick, it's a model, ... If those assumptions are valid, the model is appropriate, if the assumptions are not valid, things fall down. ... The model that Mike and Dan have presented is grossly simple but under the valid assumptions, useful. I would posit, as assumptions, that 1. the nage is in equilibrium, static or dynamic, which ever you prefer, before and during the applied push and 2. the push is concentric, ie. no torsional compensation allowed.
Thanks, Tom. Please see the link and quote I gave Mike S. Their assumptions are not empirically valid, regardless of their performance, which I have no prejudicial reasons to doubt, the lack of like courtesy notwithstanding.

1) nage is critically not in equilibrium before the push, nor during nor after; and

2) no push can be meaningfully concentric, where the balance system is actively imparting moments and counter moments both laterally and torsionally. i.e. - departing the center and returning again in unpredictable ways.
Quote:
If the model doesn't fit your paradigm, it does not evidence an inherent flaw in the model or the math.
It doesn't fit the evidence, and my paradigm is irrelevant to that.

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Tom Wharton wrote: View Post
I would address chinkon kishin, as my initial introduction was similar to Chris' and left quite a bit to speculation (and, no, I didn't abandon it in frustration either) but my current lineage is far more specific, but that will have to wait for another time.
Sooner please than later, I would hope, since that was the promise of this discussion, rather than this sidetrack.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2008, 02:47 AM   #146
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm not a pilot, but I have been on a plane. .. . I think in mechanics.... That's completely different from two people standing on stationary ground. It's completely different. Let me put that another way. It's completely different.
Not so different in control, which your background does not provide you and mine does. Control where the mechanics gets practical. My experience is that the same essential aspects of my stability control system are operating when I meet a person standing on stationary ground, as when I am flying. You fly a plane with the same neuromuscular control kicks and only semiconscious dynamic impulse corrections that keep you upright on a bike or standing erect, or responding to a push or causing kuzushi in an opponent.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Hmm, I kind of took Sagawa to be saying that most people were lazy and had no idea what they were actually doing,
Well he did say that ...
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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
... I certainly did not take him to be saying that everyone's opionion and quality of information/understanding was equal.
Nor did I.
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Sagawa, Clear Power wrote:
Take Aiki for example. There is no way to really teach this. ... <If you decide because> others tell you so, or influence you, then it's no good. You must hold your own counsel. Decide for yourself what is right and what is wrong.
No matter how accomplished a person is, he is never perfect. Never hold what he says to be gospel. If you do, then it will obstruct your own determination to innovate and find things out for yourself. You must take what you learn, and then innovate it based on your own ideas.
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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
I'm confused, when you say my description is 180 degrees out of phase, what description are you talking about?
This.
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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
f one was using the 'one point' paradigm, you could easily practice it as a way of using the limbs to amplify the movements of the hara ... Now I would probably treat it as an exercise to see how much structure and connection I could maintain while moving in an externally supple fashion, and I would focus a LOT less on amplifying the movement of the hara through the limbs.
As I said, your description "limbs amplify movements of the hara" is 180 degrees out from the hara amplifying the movements of the limbs.

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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Who here is out of line with the founder's vision for Aikido?
I don't know. I only have my own vision of Aikido 'cause that's what he (and Sagawa) said I had to develop. It will probably turn out badly, and of course, I would have done anyway, but it's nice for the encouragement all the same.

So let me answer your earlier question which I missed.
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Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Erick, what lessons have you taken from Chinkon Kishin and how often would you say you practice it? For how long at a time? Thx.
Lessons. The main one is that I realized that the movements were larger amplitude versions of things that are already going on in my body naturally, but without the mobilization and precise direction that makes them capable of being used as a weapon. I realized that to gain a direction over those processes required scaling them up to attune to them and how to manipulate them -- which is what the basic forms of kokyu undo are.

As to my practice with them I stated generally for formal practice in my earlier post. In addition to their use in formal practice, I do elements of them several times a day. I work at a standing desk, so it is fairly simple to do when the odd impulse hits. Rocking from foot to foot or a sketch or pulse of movement of the arms, or shaping a technique movement in my head with the tai-sabaki sketched in a minimal kokyu undo. By the end of the day I may have come up with something I want to show or try in class. Gives my right brain something to do while my left brain earns the walking-around money.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:03 AM   #147
stan baker
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Erick.
It sounds like alot of mumbo jumbo, can you do what you are talking about and to what degree. May be you do not realize but Dan is much better then you.

stan
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:19 AM   #148
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

Maybe we should posit that people who post every hour for hours on end into the wee hours of the night are probably sitting in front of their computer way too much instead of training, ergo, not internally developed if they are not already known by third parties to be so.

Tell you what, when I was drinking in Paris in 1890 I got into a shoving match with Hamilton and Lagrange. I could push both of them, because I had mastered the (unknown at the time) art of deformation quantization. But then Hamilton did a Legendre transform (which is like tai no henko) and all of a sudden Lagrange was standing in front of me. Now, *that* is aiki! (Legendre was pissed, because that was his trick, but he wasn't there, so tough.)



Anyway, regarding the mechanical explanations Erik is making, I think Erik is pushing the bar way too far than what is needed. In a discussion about being pushed from the front, I am not going to start talking about solving the n-body problem or splitting of energy levels due to the magnetic moment of the electron.

If Erik can analyze aiki age or a front push in terms of mechanics, then he should write up a paper starting with an action function for the system and derive the Euler-Lagrange equations and solve them, either in closed form or by numerical simulation, and then explain his results. Or he should speak in plain terms so that the other readers of this forum will understand. Granted, just saying "use peng" or "use aiki" is not helpful either if you don't already have a kinesthetic sense of what those words mean, but I think Erik is throwing a lot of chaff, to borrow an aviation term.

The comment about the micro-structure or micro-action of muscles is probably not relevant because the mini-firings are averaged out on the distance scales we are considering in a front-push -- much as the physics of a gas on classical scales is not measured by the individual properties of each molecule in the gas but in bulk properties of pressure, volume, and temperature. This simplification over scale is actually a very generic property of physical systems -- be they fluids, solids, or gases -- and why we can do classical mechanics at all. Just because the finer grained structure is there, does not mean it is relevant for the particular problem. It might be relevant if we were talking about responding to a change in the angle of a push, once equilibrium has been reached, not how to reach equilibrium in the first place.

(That being said, I think small adjustments, and having a great degree of control over the body's equilibrium, are important parts of martial development. I just don't think the descriptions Erik offers are helpful at all in talking about internal skill.)

In short, Erik, I think you are muddying the issue -- and not being informative or helping anyone. Returning the sentiment of my first paragraph -- it is very noticeable that you did not respond to Dan's put up or shut up remark.

MVR
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Old 02-02-2008, 08:30 AM   #149
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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The aiki cross were two lines in an X- intersecting vertically at their center
Whoops. Where does this come from? Source? Speculation? Without going into a lot of details about Ki and it's fairly strict relationship to the body, I'd question this one, Dan. There is indeed a "cross", but it derives from the precursor to the current acupuncture meridians and it doesn't go like that.

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Mike Sigman
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:31 AM   #150
Erick Mead
 
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Re: Chinkon Kishin

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
.. into the wee hours of the night... regarding the mechanical explanations Erik is making, I think Erik is pushing the bar way too far than what is needed. ...
Sagawa is wrong, then, about how intensely one should dwell on this??

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
The comment about the micro-structure or micro-action of muscles is probably not relevant because the mini-firings are averaged out on the distance scales we are considering in a front-push -- much as the physics of a gas on classical scales is not measured by the individual properties of each molecule in the gas but in bulk properties of pressure, volume, and temperature.
Probably? Not so. They do not "average" -- there is no linear function on which an average would have any statistical meaning.The fact that the system has a dynamic control and a peak attractor does not make the concept of average useful.

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
This simplification over scale is actually a very generic property of physical systems -- be they fluids, solids, or gases -- and why we can do classical mechanics at all.
Chaotic systems break scaling laws, especially supercritical ones. Hurricanes and tornados are emergent structures, not "averages" of the system. Classical mechanics cannot trivially predict the path of a three pendulum harmonic system -- which is what we all work with to balance. Simple structure, complex behavior

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
Just because the finer grained structure is there, does not mean it is relevant for the particular problem. It might be relevant if we were talking about responding to a change in the angle of a push, once equilibrium has been reached, not how to reach equilibrium in the first place.
You did not even read what I gave you. Your assumption is not true. You are not in equilibrium, you are never in equilibrium -- you pass from greater to lesser imbalance and back incessantly and the physical locus of the "equilibrium" point also shifts with every adjustment. Literally, bipedal equilibrium is a moving target you approach but NEVER get to, and are always in the process of not falling away from.

Any model that presumes equilibrium of human stability is NOT FACTUAL. It is very limited metaphor, nothing more. The fact that we get good at and have a remarkable illusion of stability by dynamic control does not change the nature of our supercritically, unstable structure, any more than a bike stays upright merely because it is balanced between two wheels.

Chinkon kishin kokyu undo are, in my view, movements that bring that process to scales where we can access its rudiments to alter its use for martial purposes, or so I have learned. I will freely acknowledge that what Ark teaches may do something similar. With a system as complex as it is, I would be surprised if there were not many more ways to access it in addition.

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Mark Raugas wrote: View Post
... it is very noticeable that you did not respond to Dan's put up or shut up remark.
Yes. Just as noticeable as that he does little else in response. I find it a matter of no small irony that those whose incessant refrain is to say I have to "feel" to understand what they mean, can mysteriously reach through the data packets and feel me. I'm having none of it, one, because it is crass and rude, and more to the point because this is not the forum for it.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
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